4/4 Music Beat

Rhino · October 2008

I don't has no rhythms.

I need to learn how to clap a 4/4 beat. Any advice or ideally an mp3 that I could clap along with?

mooshoepork · October 2008

are you serious?

edit: If you are, have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe6VIH-lQN4

It's for drumming, but it will at least give you an idea, just clap along to it.

mcdermott · October 2008

...

...

You can't be serious.

In case you are, you just count.

1, 2, 3, 4,
1, 2, 3, 4,
and repeat.

God help you when you get to a 6/8. :P

And if it's just the rhythm that's killing you, rather than understanding the time signature, there's not a lot you can do except practice. Try identifying the time signature of songs you like, then clapping/tapping along with it. Or to a metronome.

EDIT: And keep in mind that tempo is entirely separate from time signature...so that 4/4 beat you have to clap may be at 60bpm, may be at 90bpm, may be at 120bpm. What's this for? Music class or something?

RNEMESiS42 · October 2008

Take your hands.

Get them ready to clap.

Clap your hands with even breaks in between to the count of:

1

2

3

4

Repeat.

Your hands should be sounding something like this:

Click the RUN button

Page- · October 2008

Well any song you like, chances are if it's a pop or rock song it'll be 4/4. If you can count to 4 and hear a beat then you can do it. You probably already do, if you ever find yourself tapping or nodding along. You just need to count it out and listen for the repeats.

Willeth · October 2008

Yeah, it's not like every beat needs to be exactly a second apart or anything. As long as the parts are even between each beat, that's 4/4.

Post Blue · October 2008

Follow everyone else's guidance, and then add an emphasis on the "1" beat to distinguish between measures.

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

Earthenrock · October 2008

everyone else seems to give a good description but I'd like to add a few things

Try putting in these and saying them out loud.

1 and 2 and 3 and 4. It'll give you better separation between beats usually.

If you're getting into music and want to get more technical, but also laid back explanation of counting you could add more sounds to say when counting to distinguish quarter notes.

1 e and ah 2 e and ah 3 e and ah 4.

garroad_ran · October 2008

To the people asking "are you serious" or thinking that this is always a really easy thing: I teach a LOT of students, and have had many, many students over the years who have a very difficult time tapping their foot to a beat, feeling a time signature, or even distinguishing "which note is higher?"

More often than not it's adult students who have been listening to music all their lives but never realized there was a pulse there!

If all the above hasn't helped, maybe try sitting down with someone who knows a thing or two about music, and listen to a lot of different songs. Try to count the time signatures along with the music and have your friend correct your or help you out when you can't get it.

Rhino · October 2008

mcdermott wrote: »

...
In case you are, you just count.

1, 2, 3, 4,
1, 2, 3, 4,
and repeat.

Is it once per second? 4 times per second? 2 times per second?

LittleBoots · October 2008

Rhino wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

...
In case you are, you just count.

1, 2, 3, 4,
1, 2, 3, 4,
and repeat.

Is it once per second? 4 times per second? 2 times per second?

How many times per second is BPM (beats per minute) and is independent of a time signature I believe. So you can do 4/4 how ever fast you like, its still 1,2,3,4 just as fast or as slow as you like.

Rhino · October 2008

LittleBoots wrote: »

Rhino wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

...
In case you are, you just count.

1, 2, 3, 4,
1, 2, 3, 4,
and repeat.

Is it once per second? 4 times per second? 2 times per second?

How many times per second is BPM (beats per minute) and is independent of a time signature I believe. So you can do 4/4 how ever fast you like, its still 1,2,3,4 just as fast or as slow as you like.

Hrm, I always thought the time signature/measure determined the beat/rhythm/speed?

mcdermott · October 2008

Rhino wrote: »

LittleBoots wrote: »

Rhino wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

...
In case you are, you just count.

1, 2, 3, 4,
1, 2, 3, 4,
and repeat.

Is it once per second? 4 times per second? 2 times per second?

How many times per second is BPM (beats per minute) and is independent of a time signature I believe. So you can do 4/4 how ever fast you like, its still 1,2,3,4 just as fast or as slow as you like.

Hrm, I always thought the time signature/measure determined the beat/rhythm/speed?

It measures the rhythm, but not the speed. Speed is determined by tempo...so as I said, you can have a 4/4 song that's 120 beats per minute, 60 beats per minute, whatever. [strike]A beat is generally the length of a quarter note[/strike], so in 4/4 the length of one count (four counts per measure).

So if you take a song that's in 4/4, and play it twice as fast, it's still 4/4...you've just sped up the tempo, not changed the rhythm.

EDIT: If you google around for a metronome program for the computer you can probably find one that will count out whatever time signature you want, accenting the first beat of each measure. And then you can adjust the tempo as well, and basically get a feel for how the whole thing works. I don't know any off the top of my head, though.

EDIT: Yeah, I forgot about how that works, so ignore the struck portion. Left it there to highlight that while I might sound like a smug bastard, I don't exactly know all there is to know about these things either.

lizard eats flies · October 2008

In 4/4 the first 4 means 4 beats per measure, the second 4 means the quarter note gets the beat. So it gives you information about the number of pulses and what kind of note gets the pulse, but it doesnt tell you how fast the pulses come. In sheet music you'll often see at the top something that says (1/4 note) = 120, meaning that there are 120 quarter notes per minute. But it could be anything, as fast or slow as you want. Other ways of conveying the 'speed' or beats per minute is using descriptive terms like "allegro"

Crashtard · October 2008

The best way for you start might be to just clap every second. Once a second is a 60 bpm tempo in 4/4 time.

Gihgehls · October 2008

Nope, as long as when you count 1,2,3,4 you are holding each one for the same amount of time, that's a 4/4 beat. In fact, if you count them like seconds, you are still doing a 4/4 beat, albeit a slow one: One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, four Mississippi.

Time signature is separate from tempo.

Gihgehls · October 2008

I made some mp3s for you to follow along with. The first beat in each measure is a higher tone.

4/4 at 100 beats per minute

4/4 at 160 beats per minute

3/4 at 100 beats per minute

3/4 at 160 beats per minute

Rhino · October 2008

Gihgehls wrote: »

I made some mp3s for you to follow along with. The first beat in each measure is a higher tone.

4/4 at 100 beats per minute

4/4 at 160 beats per minute

3/4 at 100 beats per minute

3/4 at 160 beats per minute

Thanks!

You have a funny sounding piano.

Tarantio · October 2008

If it's not entirely clear, there's really no difference between clapping a 4/4 beat and a 3/4 beat, or between any two time signatures. The beats are all the same length, time signature simply reflects the internal pattern in the music. It is entirely possible to set down any music in any time signature, although there is almost never any reason to use one other than the one for which it was written.

It is definitely helpful to count the numbers of the beats in your head, as it allows you follow along keeping pace in sheet music easier. You could even use you hand, flicking out one finger for each beat (resetting after four, of course) or, if you're feeling ambitious, look up a standard conducting pattern.

Is there anything specific you need to do this for, that we might be better able to help you if we knew more about?

Topia · October 2008

I learned beats of all kinda playing DDR... If you want to practice a bit just get stepmania for your computer and play some songs. You'll learn beat patterns quickly.

garroad_ran · October 2008

Tarantio wrote: »

If it's not entirely clear, there's really no difference between clapping a 4/4 beat and a 3/4 beat, or between any two time signatures. The beats are all the same length, time signature simply reflects the internal pattern in the music. It is entirely possible to set down any music in any time signature, although there is almost never any reason to use one other than the one for which it was written.

So wrong it's not even funny. Time signatures imply metric accents. "Happy Birthday," written in 4/4 time would sound very different than you're used to.

Rhino, if all the above hasn't yet explained it clearly enough, here's yet another way to think about it.

Pulse wrote:

Begin by establishing a PULSE. You don't need to do any counting or anything, just be sure that your pulse does not speed up or slow down. If you have an analog clock handy, you may be able to hear the second hand ticking. That's an example of a pulse. Of course, your pulse could be much faster or slower.

Once you've established a pulse, you can get into thinking about time signatures.

The Bottom Number wrote:

Time signatures, as you know, have two numbers to them. The bottom number (let's call it the "denominator") is a simply a reference number that tells you WHAT IS A BEAT? The bottom number might be:
1 (whole note)
2 (half note)
4 (quarter note)
8 (eighth note)
16 (sixteenth note)
32 (thirtysecond note)

2, 4, and 8 are seen regularly. The others are antiquated or extremely rare.

Thus, if your time signature has a bottom number 4, then that's telling that each pulse represents one quarter note. This is important because note values (whole, half, quarter, eighth, etc) are all relative to one another, not absolute determinants of how long to hold a note.

If you've established a steady pulse, and you've decided that each pulse is equivalent to a quarter note, then you can begin to try out different note values.

A rhythm comprised of quarter notes would sound once with every pulse.
A rhythm comprised of half notes would sound once every second pulse (twice as long).
A rhythm comprised of whole notes would sound once every fourth pulse (twice as long as half notes, four times as long as quarter notes)

The Top Number wrote:

The top number (let's call it the "numerator") in the time signature is the important one, because it determines the "metric accent." You number your pulses according to the numerator, and accent them accordingly.

If the top number is .... then you accent ....

2 - the first beat
3 - the first beat
4 - the first beat, with a lighter accent on the third
5 - the first beat, with a lighter accent on the fourth OR the first beat with a lighter accent on the third
6 - the first beat, with a lighter accent on the fourth

As you can see, if the top number is five you could think of it as 2+3 or 3+2. Similarly, with other numbers you choose a metric accentuation that works with the music.

7 might be 4+3 or 3+4
9 might be 3+3+3 or 4+5
etc.

Hopefully that makes some sense. Usually I would explain all this along with demonstrations, but it would take forever for me to record all this stuff.

Hey Ashtray · October 2008

garroad_ran wrote: »

Tarantio wrote: »

If it's not entirely clear, there's really no difference between clapping a 4/4 beat and a 3/4 beat, or between any two time signatures. The beats are all the same length, time signature simply reflects the internal pattern in the music. It is entirely possible to set down any music in any time signature, although there is almost never any reason to use one other than the one for which it was written.

So wrong it's not even funny. Time signatures imply metric accents. "Happy Birthday," written in 4/4 time would sound very different than you're used to.

You're both saying the same thing. Tarantio is saying that regardless of time signature, assuming the bottom number gets the beat, 160 BPM is the same in 3/4, 4/4, 15/8 or what have you. He then goes onto to say that time signature 'simply reflects the internal pattern in the music', which coincides with your point about Happy Birthday feeling really strange in 4/4.

garroad_ran · October 2008

Hey Ashtray wrote: »

You're both saying the same thing. Tarantio is saying that regardless of time signature, assuming the bottom number gets the beat, 160 BPM is the same in 3/4, 4/4, 15/8 or what have you. He then goes onto to say that time signature 'simply reflects the internal pattern in the music', which coincides with your point about Happy Birthday feeling really strange in 4/4.

But "Happy Birthday" in 4/4 does not sound like Happy Birthday. It'll be recognizable, but it won't be right, and to say that it could be written either way is simply wrong.

It might seem trivial with "Happy Birthday" as an example, but it's definitely not trivial if you're playing Mozart or Beethoven or whatever.

EDIT: That being said, he'd be correct if he said that it could be written in any form of triple meter. 3/1, 3/2, 3/4, 3/8, 3/16, and 3/32 would for all intents and purposes be interchangeable. 3/4 is the more commonly chosen one because it's easier to read.

Tarantio · October 2008

Eh- stressed beats in music coincide with the patterns in the music, not the time signature. These are just about always the same, because the time signature is there to make the pattern easier to see, but any information derived from the signature should be there in the actual notes, dynamic markings, or text. Putting a song in the wrong time signature could cause it to be played wrong, but wouldn't effect what is the correct way to play the music. Which is an entirely semantic argument, as nobody puts songs in the wrong time signatures for no good reason.

I was trying to explain that any pattern of notes can be written in any time signature, and that it shouldn't really effect an attempt to clap along with a song.

All of this is pretty far beyond what the OP needed, so I'll just leave it at that.

Cyvros · October 2008

Tarantio wrote: »

Eh- stressed beats in music coincide with the patterns in the music, not the time signature.

At least in Australia, it's taught that stressed beats are related to the time signature (this sort of thing is taught in practical and, IIRC, examined in theory). For instance, in 4/4, the beats have a sort of (and this is very exaggerated) f-mp-mf-mp thing. Basically, the first note's strong, the second and fourth notes are 'normal' and the third note's in between.

EDIT: It's also sort of examined in practical as well, since it needs to be part of the performance - the first beat is always strongest and then the second strongest one comes halfway through the measure (I can't remember how it works with, say, 3/3).

garroad_ran · October 2008

Tarantio wrote: »

Eh- stressed beats in music coincide with the patterns in the music, not the time signature. These are just about always the same, because the time signature is there to make the pattern easier to see, but any information derived from the signature should be there in the actual notes, dynamic markings, or text. Putting a song in the wrong time signature could cause it to be played wrong, but wouldn't effect what is the correct way to play the music. Which is an entirely semantic argument, as nobody puts songs in the wrong time signatures for no good reason.

I was trying to explain that any pattern of notes can be written in any time signature, and that it shouldn't really effect an attempt to clap along with a song.

All of this is pretty far beyond what the OP needed, so I'll just leave it at that.

I understand what you were saying better now, but still think that you're misunderstanding time signatures a little bit. Meter is integral to (western) music, and not simply a convenience that we adopt for notation purposes. A metric accent is different than a notated accent, and four quarter notes in 4/4 time are played different than four quarter notes in 3/4 time.

Furthermore, things -are- frequently put into different time signatures for a variety of different reasons. Among others, I play 3/4 rhythms over 4/4 grooves all the time, and am working on playing 5/8 rhythms over 4/4 as well.

Cyvros wrote:

It's also sort of examined in practical as well, since it needs to be part of the performance - the first beat is always strongest and then the second strongest one comes halfway through the measure (I can't remember how it works with, say, 3/3).

There's no such thing as 3/3 time (check out my earlier post explaining time signatures). In triple time only the first beat is accentuated.

Cyvros · October 2008

garroad_ran wrote: »

Cyvros wrote:

It's also sort of examined in practical as well, since it needs to be part of the performance - the first beat is always strongest and then the second strongest one comes halfway through the measure (I can't remember how it works with, say, 3/3).

There's no such thing as 3/3 time (check out my earlier post explaining time signatures). In triple time only the first beat is accentuated.

This is why I should stop posting while eating; I meant 3/4. Thanks for clearing that up (I don't really come across triple time all that much these days).

garroad_ran · October 2008

Triple time is my worst enemy!

Cyvros · October 2008

garroad_ran wrote: »

Triple time is my worst enemy!

Hehehe. It's even more fun when composers switch between triple and quadruple time.

HadjiQuest · October 2008

So here's what I don't get.

Wouldn't 6/4 or even 9/4 be the same as 3/4?

And the same for 4/4 and 8/4 (if there is an 8/4)? What makes them different?

Time signatures mess me up, too. At least, beyond 5/4.

shadydentist · October 2008

HadjiQuest wrote: »

So here's what I don't get.

Wouldn't 6/4 or even 9/4 be the same as 3/4?

And the same for 4/4 and 8/4 (if there is an 8/4)? What makes them different?

Time signatures mess me up, too. At least, beyond 5/4.

Not necessarily. 6/4 usually indicates 6 complete beats per measure, while 3 will only have 3. Its really about how you want your music to be broken up.

garroad_ran · October 2008

6/4 is different from 3/4 because beat 4 would have something of a smaller metric accent on it.

something like

one two three four five six

as opposed to

one two three one two three

9/4 would be similarly divided into three sets of three.*

one two three four five six sev eight nine

The thing about these meters is that they're "compound" meters. Essentially what this means is that the pulse is felt as if it were a normal duple or triple meter, but the predominant subdivision is different. Again, really weird stuff for me to try to explain in a text-based format.

Oh, and as for 8/4, you could in theory write something in 8/4. The difference here, again, would be that you'd get a lesser emphasis on your fifth pulse

one two three four five six sev eight

however, this would be very unorthodox and the likely benefits of writing in 8/4 would be overshadowed by how difficult the music would be to read. You'd probably get better results by writing in 4/4 and putting an accent at the beginning of every other bar.

*This is conventional, but not necessarily always true. Off the top of my head I can think of a Hiromi tune that's grouped in 4+5, and a lot of spots in Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" where he specifies how the stranger time signatures are supposed to be grouped. In general though, unless otherwise specified, 9 will be read as 3+3+3

Hypatia · October 2008

You could get one of those metronomes to teach you so you can vary the speed, some of those electronic ones will even give you a different blip for the first count.

Khavall · October 2008

There in fact is a 3/3 time signature. If you play enough contemporary music you will run into time signatures like that. I also have played 7/5 and 4/9 at points. They work the same way, they just aren't as common, and are a bitch to switch to and from quickly.

Also metric accent is important depending on when and for what the music is written for. Metric accent does not exist(unless specified)starting about 1920-ish-onwards in the classical spectrum, where time signature became basically just a way of organizing beats. However, if you're counting along to something more commercial in the modern spectrum or 1650-1920 classical there's at least some level, depending on where for how strong, of metric accent.

Khavall · October 2008

Cyvros wrote: »

garroad_ran wrote: »

Triple time is my worst enemy!

Hehehe. It's even more fun when composers switch between triple and quadruple time.

You guys should see some of the shit I've played.

It'll make you weep.

Three layers of nested tuplets in 7/8 and then a 7/7 measure.

lizard eats flies · October 2008

Ok, so the pandora podcast is pretty useful for music 101 type stuff. Here is a link to the one on time signatures and meter:
http://blog.pandora.com/archives/podcast/2007/09/meters_time_sig.html

Hope that helps. Should provide some good examples

tsmvengy · October 2008

If you guys want to know all about different time signatures just listen to Time Out. Awesome stuff.

Also I found this.

Feral · October 2008

lizard eats flies wrote: »

Ok, so the pandora podcast is pretty useful for music 101 type stuff. Here is a link to the one on time signatures and meter:
http://blog.pandora.com/archives/podcast/2007/09/meters_time_sig.html

Hope that helps. Should provide some good examples

Okay, this Pandora Presents... podcast is one of the awesomest things I've been linked to in a while.

Thanks, lizard!

Cyvros · October 2008

Khavall wrote: »

Cyvros wrote: »

garroad_ran wrote: »

Triple time is my worst enemy!

Hehehe. It's even more fun when composers switch between triple and quadruple time.

You guys should see some of the shit I've played.

It'll make you weep.

Three layers of nested tuplets in 7/8 and then a 7/7 measure.

That's just evil.

When I grow up, I want to be a bitter old composer who incessantly switches between time signatures.

Tofystedeth · October 2008

Khavall wrote: »

Cyvros wrote: »

garroad_ran wrote: »

Triple time is my worst enemy!

Hehehe. It's even more fun when composers switch between triple and quadruple time.

You guys should see some of the shit I've played.

It'll make you weep.

Three layers of nested tuplets in 7/8 and then a 7/7 measure.

Wow.... THat's icky.

so in a meter like 7/7 or 4/9 you're doing what?
7 septuplets per measure and 4 nontuplets per measure? How does that work.
Also, how did you learn to do polyrhythms? I do okay with 3 against 4, but sometimes 2 against 3 and 4 against 6 give me real trouble.
Also, I can't for the life of me think of the term for that. There was some strange word that meant, polyrhythm or specifically 2 against 3 that I always liked to say.

Khavall · October 2008

Tofystedeth wrote: »

Khavall wrote: »

Cyvros wrote: »

garroad_ran wrote: »

Triple time is my worst enemy!

Hehehe. It's even more fun when composers switch between triple and quadruple time.

You guys should see some of the shit I've played.

It'll make you weep.

Three layers of nested tuplets in 7/8 and then a 7/7 measure.

Wow.... THat's icky.

so in a meter like 7/7 or 4/9 you're doing what?
7 septuplets per measure and 4 nontuplets per measure? How does that work.
Also, how did you learn to do polyrhythms? I do okay with 3 against 4, but sometimes 2 against 3 and 4 against 6 give me real trouble.
Also, I can't for the life of me think of the term for that. There was some strange word that meant, polyrhythm or specifically 2 against 3 that I always liked to say.

in 7/7 the seventh note gets the beat. Things like that one are easy, and kind of pointless, it's just like a septuplet measure in 4/4. Where it gets to make a difference is in things like 4/9, where the 9th note gets the beat. So if you were in 4/4, you'd divide it into a 9:8 eighth note string, and there would be 4 of them in a 4/9 measure.

So let's say you have a 4/4 measure and then a 2/3 measure and then a 4/4 measure, it would be the following:
One Two Three Four | Trip-a | One Two Three Four. Basically you have.... well, 2/3rds of a triplet.

Also the sure-fire way of doing overlapping rhythms is to figure out a common multiple, slow it the hell down, and figure out where each one lies in the composite rhythm, and just think about that. There are also a lot of ways of thinking about the common ones.

4 v 3 is "KILL the GOddamn YUPpies", for instance.

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