I find I am WAY more survivable then a Sorc/BW. That is my trade off for power. Again I can't say this enough, Magus bloom so late it isn't funny (27 when you can pick up either indigo fire of change or bolt of change and finally burst someone down). While this is a problem, it doesn't mean the whole class is terrible. Yes our DoTs could use work but we aren't this pile of poop floating on a disk who occasionally rifts that most people think.
I find I am WAY more survivable then a Sorc/BW. That is my trade off for power. Again I can't say this enough, Magus bloom so late it isn't funny (27 when you can pick up either indigo fire of change or bolt of change and finally burst someone down). While this is a problem, it doesn't mean the whole class is terrible. Yes our DoTs could use work but we aren't this pile of poop floating on a disk who occasionally rifts that most people think.
Agreed. I find magi are tough targets to take down when compared to a sorc or squig herder. They used to be easy pickins in T2/3 but in T4 they are tough cookies with a lot of tricks up their sleeves.
I think the main problem Magi have is that intelligence doesn't give DoTs a whole lot of extra power.
It gives them an amount of extra power relative to the cast time, which is really just fine. The real problem for the Magus in need is that there is no additional scaling to amplify the effect that int has on their damage. The Magus PBAE and the Sorc/BW PBAE are similar (The magus one is actually a tiny bit better, base) but it doesn't have the ridiculous scaling from dark magic to make it go from hitting for 150, to critting for over 1k per cast.
So basically, int is okay, but the rest of the scaling is out of whack.
Perhaps the defensive RDPS should get medium armor to compensate?
Eh, anyone I have to care about hitting me in melee has stuff to get around almost all the armor, anyway.
I think the main problem Magi have is that intelligence doesn't give DoTs a whole lot of extra power.
It gives them an amount of extra power relative to the cast time, which is really just fine. The real problem for the Magus in need is that there is no additional scaling to amplify the effect that int has on their damage. The Magus PBAE and the Sorc/BW PBAE are similar (The magus one is actually a tiny bit better, base) but it doesn't have the ridiculous scaling from dark magic to make it go from hitting for 150, to critting for over 1k per cast.
So basically, int is okay, but the rest of the scaling is out of whack.
Perhaps the defensive RDPS should get medium armor to compensate?
Eh, anyone I have to care about hitting me in melee has stuff to get around almost all the armor, anyway.
Also Magus and Engineer already effectively have medium armor from the Daemonic Armor/Flak Jacket buff.
I think the main problem Magi have is that intelligence doesn't give DoTs a whole lot of extra power.
It gives them an amount of extra power relative to the cast time, which is really just fine. The real problem for the Magus in need is that there is no additional scaling to amplify the effect that int has on their damage. The Magus PBAE and the Sorc/BW PBAE are similar (The magus one is actually a tiny bit better, base) but it doesn't have the ridiculous scaling from dark magic to make it go from hitting for 150, to critting for over 1k per cast.
So basically, int is okay, but the rest of the scaling is out of whack.
Perhaps the defensive RDPS should get medium armor to compensate?
I think they should be able to go all Captain America on order asses with their disc.
EDIT: oh, and I suppose engineers should be able to horrify the entire opposing team with a demonstration of their mechanical "toys," reducing all destruction players willpower and intelligence by 100%.
Man, I need to get off the internet more. Your edit put some nightmare-inducing pictures in my head.
I think the main problem Magi have is that intelligence doesn't give DoTs a whole lot of extra power.
It gives them an amount of extra power relative to the cast time, which is really just fine. The real problem for the Magus in need is that there is no additional scaling to amplify the effect that int has on their damage. The Magus PBAE and the Sorc/BW PBAE are similar (The magus one is actually a tiny bit better, base) but it doesn't have the ridiculous scaling from dark magic to make it go from hitting for 150, to critting for over 1k per cast.
So basically, int is okay, but the rest of the scaling is out of whack.
Perhaps the defensive RDPS should get medium armor to compensate?
I think they should be able to go all Captain America on order asses with their disc.
EDIT: oh, and I suppose engineers should be able to horrify the entire opposing team with a demonstration of their mechanical "toys," reducing all destruction players willpower and intelligence by 100%.
Man, I need to get off the internet more. Your edit put some nightmare-inducing pictures in my head.
You have no idea, this is what happened on our first night of playing order alts: (spoiler'd for NSFHC)
Do SW every bloom to being able to dps someone down or do they jsut suck forever? Friend of mine is really starting to hate his SW at level 29. He says he can't do shit for damage and dies just about as easily as a BW.
Do SW every bloom to being able to dps someone down or do they jsut suck forever? Friend of mine is really starting to hate his SW at level 29. He says he can't do shit for damage and dies just about as easily as a BW.
I keep hearing stories of vengeful-boosted crits hitting for like 3000 on tanks and stuff. So I dunno.
Do SW every bloom to being able to dps someone down or do they jsut suck forever? Friend of mine is really starting to hate his SW at level 29. He says he can't do shit for damage and dies just about as easily as a BW.
I keep hearing stories of vengeful-boosted crits hitting for like 3000 on tanks and stuff. So I dunno.
Do SWs stack much in the way of Weapons Skill? I would think that it would be vital for them.
Do SW every bloom to being able to dps someone down or do they jsut suck forever? Friend of mine is really starting to hate his SW at level 29. He says he can't do shit for damage and dies just about as easily as a BW.
I keep hearing stories of vengeful-boosted crits hitting for like 3000 on tanks and stuff. So I dunno.
see that's what I'm hearing too is that they do crazy damage at mid 30's to 40 but I haven't ever heard it directly from a SW.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
the scout tree's first tactic?
it works for festering arrow (deeper in the tree) as well.
festering arrow likes to crit tanks for ~3500 with the unshakable focus r2 morale going.
it works for festering arrow (deeper in the tree) as well.
festering arrow likes to crit tanks for ~3500 with the unshakable focus r2 morale going.
At level 27, I pulled off a crit for 2760 yesterday doing that. It very nearly one-shotted the witch elf.
Yeah festering/enchanted arrow combined with the level 2 morale ability lets you do really good damage for one or two shots every minute and a half or so.
Using charge forth/expert skirmisher I can hit clothies for around 500 each hit, which isn't bad. But you have to get really close to do it, which usually results in the enemy tanks/mdps beating you up.
I'm closing in on 35, so I will get throat shot soon to see if that helps at all. Although I doubt a 5s silence will suddenly make SW's really great. :P
I also get instinctive aim at that level I believe, so maybe the steady aim/enchanted arrow/festering arrow trick. Bumps the cast time to 5s, but a 50%+ chance to crit on an un-resistable attack probably isn't bad.
Also outrider patrol morale ability is pretty good. Hits for 1k in a 20-30' area.
But yes to answer the original question, we never DPS as good as a BW, and yes we die just as easily, shadow warrior is still very confused about what it's role is supposed to be I think.
it works for festering arrow (deeper in the tree) as well.
festering arrow likes to crit tanks for ~3500 with the unshakable focus r2 morale going.
At level 27, I pulled off a crit for 2760 yesterday doing that. It very nearly one-shotted the witch elf.
Yeah festering/enchanted arrow combined with the level 2 morale ability lets you do really good damage for one or two shots every minute and a half or so.
Using charge forth/expert skirmisher I can hit clothies for around 500 each hit, which isn't bad. But you have to get really close to do it, which usually results in the enemy tanks/mdps beating you up.
I'm closing in on 35, so I will get throat shot soon to see if that helps at all. Although I doubt a 5s silence will suddenly make SW's really great. :P
I also get instinctive aim at that level I believe, so maybe the steady aim/enchanted arrow/festering arrow trick. Bumps the cast time to 5s, but a 50%+ chance to crit on an un-resistable attack probably isn't bad.
Also outrider patrol morale ability is pretty good. Hits for 1k in a 20-30' area.
But yes to answer the original question, we never DPS as good as a BW, and yes we die just as easily, shadow warrior is still very confused about what it's role is supposed to be I think.
A silence can work against those using concentration abilities though. For example, Pit of Shades is normally a 20s cooldown and my most powerful spell right now. If you cut me off a few seconds after casting it, I have to wait the 17s or whatever before I can use it again.
As far as the dps goes (You're on Vortex, right?), many people I see on my scenario teams in the back line tend to start backing up or hiding when they strart taking damage. Which means you shooting them in a face a few times effectively took them out of combat, letting them whine for heals or something.
It's not always like this, but I think it's more common that people will consider hiding, rather than hoping they will be healed or continue trying to take out their target(s).
Yeah im on vortex, and yeah if I hit someone with an unshakeable focus'd festering arrow, they run away.
But other than that I have to hit them with festering/rapid fire 2-3 times before it does enough damage to make them run usually. Which is like 15-23 seconds of me standing still, and them hopefully staying in LoS the entire time. At least in tier4
I know in tier1-3 people were a lot more cowardly.
Also im not trying to make SW's out to be the worst class ever or anything. I just think we do need some work.
I'm a sorc, I think resists need to start working better or something because when I toss out my pit of shades without LOS, I can crit for 1100 dmg or so per person. So I've been spoiled. In my defense, my guild asked me at the last minute to do DPS instead of being a black orc.
However, for a time, I used to be one of those guys who would get hit to half health and run behind something and wait for healing, thus reducing my dmg output to zero for the time being. Then I usually died anyways.
Shadow Warriors are way, way too cooldown dependant. I'm not sure how the magus works, but you really are only any use when t2 morale is up.
I'd love to see eagle eye halved in cast time with a 60% reduction in damage, slight nerf to unshakeable focus (but remove the global cooldown, allow it to be activated while using another ability ala cold blood in wow) and make vengeance a 1m cooldown and make both it and steady aim not have global cooldowns and, again, work similar to cold blood.
Magus are more limited by all their DOT spells doing mediocre damage, and being unable to spam any high damage spells to get good DPS.
Rend Winds is a very light hitter, and is the only damage spell in Changing that can be spammed for damage.
Daemonic Lash is PB-Cone AE and is High AP cost for good(not great) damage.
Havent played enough with Havoc to find a solid damage spell, but i'm guessing they have to rely on Flickering Red Fire for the first 20 levels or so, which is a very mediocer nuke.
Shadow Warriors are way, way too cooldown dependant. I'm not sure how the magus works, but you really are only any use when t2 morale is up.
I'd love to see eagle eye halved in cast time with a 60% reduction in damage, slight nerf to unshakeable focus (but remove the global cooldown, allow it to be activated while using another ability ala cold blood in wow) and make vengeance a 1m cooldown and make both it and steady aim not have global cooldowns and, again, work similar to cold blood.
SH also need buffs
I dunno, eagle eye is already pretty useless as is, reducing the damage even more wouldn't really make it more useful. If I want a fast long range shot, I just hit them with rapid fire.
Maybe increase its range out to 150', to give us a snipe would be useful.
Or 137' or whatever would equal out to 150' with scout stance.
So I think I read somewhere in this thread that the Squig Herder sucks hard until 17. Can't find that post again though. Anyone want to corroborate this? I'm trying to figure out why 17, since all we get at that rank is a Squig ability. I'm guessing it was just an estimation though.
I'm R9 now and enjoying it despite definitely feeling underpowered. I do best when I try to stay out of sight and take down healers before they, or anyone else on their team, notices. I am usually successful at this, but occasionally they actually notice they're dieing and easily heal through it. Can the SH be developed into a healer killer? I know someone is going to say I should just play a WE if I want to kill healers but they just get to kill one and then they die. I could potentially take out several and still be at max health 100 ft away.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
I think you can grab the first tactic in big shootin' at 17, the one that cuts your plink casts to 1s.
So I finally broke and switched from Changing to Daemonology on my Magus.
Much better damage, like alot. Unfortunately, it all requires me to be in 5' to use, and has some nasty power costs.
It is by far the best way to quest/PQ at 29+, but really gimmicky and boring in PvP (once you get over the initial omgvortex).
Hehe, I just dinged 21, so not really in it for the Rift, but definately in it for the AOE grinding
So on a lark I just took a look at the Engineer career builder compared to the Magus... I'm pretty f'ing disgusted.
to be fair there are some disparities both ways.
i would say engineers get a massively better midrange spec (grenadier for them, changing for you) but your long rang (rifleman and havoc) spec is way way way better.
Being a Magus and looking at both long range specs I have to disagree. Their tactic that adds a knockback to an instant cast spell? I would kill for a tactic half as good in Havoc.
Sooo I was playing the other day as an Engineer and the opposing enemy team in Nordenwatch....had 5 Magi. Got to tell you, no matter the slight damage of their DOT's, it really adds up
Sooo, since my shadow warrior is assault spec should I post here considering he's not really ranged dps? More like a light tank? But anyways, I figured this is where other shadow warriors were tooling around, I thought some might appreciate this information.
Being assault spec is kinda fun, I'm enjoying being more a light tank if you will. Well then I did a pq, chapter 17, dwarf and got this.
I know it's dark, but I was logging off in altdorf and it was night time there.
In any case, yup, two-hander. It hits much harder, is very useful for assault spec. I don't want to toss around numbers since so many of them are situational and depends on what various abilities are going on at the time. But I felt there was a significant increase in damage. The specs are here, http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=29096
Yeah its a nice sword, im sure it will get fixed at some point though. I also have a staff and a 2h white lion axe that shoot arrows to go along with that sword.
Honestly I've found assault spec SW's pretty useless in t4, if you want to melee go tank or mdps, you'll be more useful.
Sorry?
I posted the same sword several pages back, and I was just sharing with you my experiences of SW's in t4, not my problem if you take offense to it.
Yes, your amazingly information filled post of 'Look at me with my cool sword and axe!' was tremendous. Didn't mention that it's an actual two handed sword with 58 dps and has a palpable impact on playing an assault shadow warrior.
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Agreed. I find magi are tough targets to take down when compared to a sorc or squig herder. They used to be easy pickins in T2/3 but in T4 they are tough cookies with a lot of tricks up their sleeves.
Eh, anyone I have to care about hitting me in melee has stuff to get around almost all the armor, anyway.
Also Magus and Engineer already effectively have medium armor from the Daemonic Armor/Flak Jacket buff.
Man, I need to get off the internet more. Your edit put some nightmare-inducing pictures in my head.
You have no idea, this is what happened on our first night of playing order alts: (spoiler'd for NSFHC)
Nice.
I keep hearing stories of vengeful-boosted crits hitting for like 3000 on tanks and stuff. So I dunno.
Do SWs stack much in the way of Weapons Skill? I would think that it would be vital for them.
see that's what I'm hearing too is that they do crazy damage at mid 30's to 40 but I haven't ever heard it directly from a SW.
it works for festering arrow (deeper in the tree) as well.
festering arrow likes to crit tanks for ~3500 with the unshakable focus r2 morale going.
At level 27, I pulled off a crit for 2760 yesterday doing that. It very nearly one-shotted the witch elf.
Yeah festering/enchanted arrow combined with the level 2 morale ability lets you do really good damage for one or two shots every minute and a half or so.
Using charge forth/expert skirmisher I can hit clothies for around 500 each hit, which isn't bad. But you have to get really close to do it, which usually results in the enemy tanks/mdps beating you up.
I'm closing in on 35, so I will get throat shot soon to see if that helps at all. Although I doubt a 5s silence will suddenly make SW's really great. :P
I also get instinctive aim at that level I believe, so maybe the steady aim/enchanted arrow/festering arrow trick. Bumps the cast time to 5s, but a 50%+ chance to crit on an un-resistable attack probably isn't bad.
Also outrider patrol morale ability is pretty good. Hits for 1k in a 20-30' area.
But yes to answer the original question, we never DPS as good as a BW, and yes we die just as easily, shadow warrior is still very confused about what it's role is supposed to be I think.
A silence can work against those using concentration abilities though. For example, Pit of Shades is normally a 20s cooldown and my most powerful spell right now. If you cut me off a few seconds after casting it, I have to wait the 17s or whatever before I can use it again.
As far as the dps goes (You're on Vortex, right?), many people I see on my scenario teams in the back line tend to start backing up or hiding when they strart taking damage. Which means you shooting them in a face a few times effectively took them out of combat, letting them whine for heals or something.
It's not always like this, but I think it's more common that people will consider hiding, rather than hoping they will be healed or continue trying to take out their target(s).
But other than that I have to hit them with festering/rapid fire 2-3 times before it does enough damage to make them run usually. Which is like 15-23 seconds of me standing still, and them hopefully staying in LoS the entire time. At least in tier4
I know in tier1-3 people were a lot more cowardly.
Also im not trying to make SW's out to be the worst class ever or anything. I just think we do need some work.
However, for a time, I used to be one of those guys who would get hit to half health and run behind something and wait for healing, thus reducing my dmg output to zero for the time being. Then I usually died anyways.
I'd love to see eagle eye halved in cast time with a 60% reduction in damage, slight nerf to unshakeable focus (but remove the global cooldown, allow it to be activated while using another ability ala cold blood in wow) and make vengeance a 1m cooldown and make both it and steady aim not have global cooldowns and, again, work similar to cold blood.
SH also need buffs
Rend Winds is a very light hitter, and is the only damage spell in Changing that can be spammed for damage.
Daemonic Lash is PB-Cone AE and is High AP cost for good(not great) damage.
Havent played enough with Havoc to find a solid damage spell, but i'm guessing they have to rely on Flickering Red Fire for the first 20 levels or so, which is a very mediocer nuke.
MWO: Adamski
I dunno, eagle eye is already pretty useless as is, reducing the damage even more wouldn't really make it more useful. If I want a fast long range shot, I just hit them with rapid fire.
Maybe increase its range out to 150', to give us a snipe would be useful.
Or 137' or whatever would equal out to 150' with scout stance.
Much better damage, like alot. Unfortunately, it all requires me to be in 5' to use, and has some nasty power costs.
MWO: Adamski
I'm R9 now and enjoying it despite definitely feeling underpowered. I do best when I try to stay out of sight and take down healers before they, or anyone else on their team, notices. I am usually successful at this, but occasionally they actually notice they're dieing and easily heal through it. Can the SH be developed into a healer killer? I know someone is going to say I should just play a WE if I want to kill healers but they just get to kill one and then they die. I could potentially take out several and still be at max health 100 ft away.
It is by far the best way to quest/PQ at 29+, but really gimmicky and boring in PvP (once you get over the initial omgvortex).
You also get Lots O Arrers which is nice for killing blows. It hits like a million times man.
Hehe, I just dinged 21, so not really in it for the Rift, but definately in it for the AOE grinding
So on a lark I just took a look at the Engineer career builder compared to the Magus... I'm pretty f'ing disgusted.
MWO: Adamski
to be fair there are some disparities both ways.
i would say engineers get a massively better midrange spec (grenadier for them, changing for you) but your long rang (rifleman and havoc) spec is way way way better.
Steam | XBL: Elazual | Last.fm
MWO: Adamski
or so I've heard
I want that tactic on my SW!
Being assault spec is kinda fun, I'm enjoying being more a light tank if you will. Well then I did a pq, chapter 17, dwarf and got this.
I know it's dark, but I was logging off in altdorf and it was night time there.
In any case, yup, two-hander. It hits much harder, is very useful for assault spec. I don't want to toss around numbers since so many of them are situational and depends on what various abilities are going on at the time. But I felt there was a significant increase in damage. The specs are here, http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=29096
In any case, figured I'd share it wit me bredren.
Yeah its a nice sword, im sure it will get fixed at some point though. I also have a staff and a 2h white lion axe that shoot arrows to go along with that sword.
Honestly I've found assault spec SW's pretty useless in t4, if you want to melee go tank or mdps, you'll be more useful.
I posted the same sword several pages back, and I was just sharing with you my experiences of SW's in t4, not my problem if you take offense to it.