Uuuh, I don't think that change has anything to do with Hammerers possibly not coming back. Ironbreakers have always been able to use hammers and the fact they previously couldn't was stupid. Hell, it's in the concept art for the game.
I think its the fact that the hammers are now IB only that has people believing this. But, yeah, its far from guaranteed.
It could also be because Hammerers are not in the game and as such they obviously can not use hammers in the game.
I play an IB and the way Grudge didn't decay was ridiculous. If the decay rate is too fast, we'll slow it down but as it was an IB could build up to 100 grudge and run around fully buffed forever. That gave them a distinct advantage in RvR especially when coupled with some of their more interesting abilities. And when you tied that to Oath Friend, a couple of smart IBs could run around with 100 Grudge all the time and that's just not fair.
Mark
I think the Grudge change still isn't going to have the effect he's apparently looking for. IBs are still going to build up 100 Grudge and sit on it, it'll just take somewhat longer. Having 100 Grudge makes all your AP-cost abilities way better, there aren't enough abilities that spend Grudge, and most of the time the abilities that cost Grudge aren't powerful enough to make it worth spending. The only exceptions are the Toughness buff because it's so cheap (5 Grudge, I can get that back with one attack when I have Rising Anger slotted), and the single-target knockback when you see a good opportunity to put someone out of the fight for several seconds (or a wall or cliff, into lava, etc... I'll spend 30 Grudge for that, sure).
Other than that, spend Grudge? Why the hell would I? It's too valuable a resource to waste on something like a mediocre three-target-max cone AoE. If his expectation was that IBs would naturally tend to fluctuate between 30-70 Grudge when in combat, the design of the class has completely missed that mark.
what's wrong with the chosen? I'm just curious, I have no experience with them
The three largest complaints I've encountered and agree with:
1) Aura Twisting: Auras are the Chosens class specialty. We are the only class where our defining mechanic is actively annoying to use. Not only that but most of the auras are pretty much worthless. The other ones sometimes have a barely noticeable effect.
2) Several abilities that are INT based: We already have to spread our attributes thin but we also have abilities that are INT based (Quake, Blast Wave off the top of my head). As a result as we reach higher levels the effectiveness of those abilities is actually going down due to the fact we can't stack +INT gear. Not only that but the resist % are out of whack. It is normal for both abilities to get disrupted about 50% of the time once you hit 40.
3) We have the most ineffective knockback (Repel) in the game. Mostly this has to do with the angle of the knockback. It is a very low angle and if there is the slightest incline behind whoever you hit with it they won't move back but about two inches.
There is a very informative thread in the Chosen forums of warhammeralliance that goes over all the bugs with our abilities. I'm at work though so I can't access that site (can PA though huzzah!)
I play an IB and the way Grudge didn't decay was ridiculous. If the decay rate is too fast, we'll slow it down but as it was an IB could build up to 100 grudge and run around fully buffed forever. That gave them a distinct advantage in RvR especially when coupled with some of their more interesting abilities. And when you tied that to Oath Friend, a couple of smart IBs could run around with 100 Grudge all the time and that's just not fair.
Mark
I think the Grudge change still isn't going to have the effect he's apparently looking for. IBs are still going to build up 100 Grudge and sit on it, it'll just take somewhat longer. Having 100 Grudge makes all your AP-cost abilities way better, there aren't enough abilities that spend Grudge, and most of the time the abilities that cost Grudge aren't powerful enough to make it worth spending. The only exceptions are the Toughness buff because it's so cheap (5 Grudge, I can get that back with one attack when I have Rising Anger slotted), and the single-target knockback when you see a good opportunity to put someone out of the fight for several seconds (or a wall or cliff, into lava, etc... I'll spend 30 Grudge for that, sure).
Other than that, spend Grudge? Why the hell would I? It's too valuable a resource to waste on something like a mediocre three-target-max cone AoE. If his expectation was that IBs would naturally tend to fluctuate between 30-70 Grudge when in combat, the design of the class has completely missed that mark.
Also Shield Sweep (the 3-target aoe cone) is supposed to refund 10 grudges for each target it hits, which it currently does not do.
In terms of IB, I'm updating the patch notes to reflect the Grudge Decay mechanic. As ti stands now, it works exactly like Combustion and decay won't begin until 10 seconds after you stop building Grudge.
Uuuh, I don't think that change has anything to do with Hammerers possibly not coming back. Ironbreakers have always been able to use hammers and the fact they previously couldn't was stupid. Hell, it's in the concept art for the game.
I think its the fact that the hammers are now IB only that has people believing this. But, yeah, its far from guaranteed.
It could also be because Hammerers are not in the game and as such they obviously can not use hammers in the game.
Right, but why bother making its IB's only if eventually you'd have to do undo it -- its already de facto IB only since no one else has the hammer skill.
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Uuuh, I don't think that change has anything to do with Hammerers possibly not coming back. Ironbreakers have always been able to use hammers and the fact they previously couldn't was stupid. Hell, it's in the concept art for the game.
I think its the fact that the hammers are now IB only that has people believing this. But, yeah, its far from guaranteed.
It could also be because Hammerers are not in the game and as such they obviously can not use hammers in the game.
Right, but why bother making its IB's only if eventually you'd have to do undo it -- its already de facto IB only since no one else has the hammer skill.
They won't have to "undo" anything... all they'd have to do is add "Hammerer" to the description of careers who are able to use it. So they aren't removing anything, they're just adding it in.
For example, no weapons currently say they're usable by the Knight of the Blazing Sun yet, and once the KotBS is in, they'll add them to weapon descriptions.
what's wrong with the chosen? I'm just curious, I have no experience with them
3) We have the most ineffective knockback (Repel) in the game. Mostly this has to do with the angle of the knockback. It is a very low angle and if there is the slightest incline behind whoever you hit with it they won't move back but about two inches.
Blorc knockback has the same problem, it is not a Chosen specific issue.
what's wrong with the chosen? I'm just curious, I have no experience with them
3) We have the most ineffective knockback (Repel) in the game. Mostly this has to do with the angle of the knockback. It is a very low angle and if there is the slightest incline behind whoever you hit with it they won't move back but about two inches.
Blorc knockback has the same problem, it is not a Chosen specific issue.
Yeah, that Ironbreaker knockback has the same problem. :!:
what's wrong with the chosen? I'm just curious, I have no experience with them
3) We have the most ineffective knockback (Repel) in the game. Mostly this has to do with the angle of the knockback. It is a very low angle and if there is the slightest incline behind whoever you hit with it they won't move back but about two inches.
Blorc knockback has the same problem, it is not a Chosen specific issue.
Great, I didn't play in beta so I don't know what it was like then. Now even if it goes off and terrain doesn't block it then maybe it is about 3/4 of the IB single target KB.
I think the issue is the same as swords for Orcs in that they used to say Usable by: Orc (Usable by: Dwarf) and now they just say Ironbreaker because it is the only class in the game that can use them.
as rAC said, when they add Hammerer it will say Usable by: Ironbreaker, Hammerer
Uuuh, I don't think that change has anything to do with Hammerers possibly not coming back. Ironbreakers have always been able to use hammers and the fact they previously couldn't was stupid. Hell, it's in the concept art for the game.
I think its the fact that the hammers are now IB only that has people believing this. But, yeah, its far from guaranteed.
It could also be because Hammerers are not in the game and as such they obviously can not use hammers in the game.
Right, but why bother making its IB's only if eventually you'd have to do undo it -- its already de facto IB only since no one else has the hammer skill.
They won't have to "undo" anything... all they'd have to do is add "Hammerer" to the description of careers who are able to use it. So they aren't removing anything, they're just adding it in.
For example, no weapons currently say they're usable by the Knight of the Blazing Sun yet, and once the KotBS is in, they'll add them to weapon descriptions.
You misunderstand. The text is "All Dwarf great hammer items in the game are now set to be useable by Iron Breakers only. " Which means they all get an IB only tag that they would either have to add Hammerers to or remove again when hammerers go live. Since there are already weapon skills that prevent the use of great hammers to everyone but IBs in game, its a largely irrelevant change otherwise. I've gotten plenty of weapons w/o a specific "X only" tag that are class specific because of that anyway.
But I don't really care about IBs or Hammerers or w/e. I was just suggesting a possible reason people are interpreting it as a likely removal of hammerers later.
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I'm an Ironbreaker and my class got owned.
Getting to 100 grudge will be impossible now.
Actually, no. For PvE, getting to 100 Grudge and holding it is quite simple at the lower levels. In RvR, we'll know more when we open the PTS as well as getting the opportunity to test it at higher levels. I've been playing an IB and I got to 100 just as quickly as ever and happily completed 2 quests while holding on to the 100.
Please DO NOT ask your poor C&C design team to read threads like this. There is so much rubbish and nonsense here, being posted by people who (a) will b#tch at you no matter what you do (b) have absolutely no regard for any issue outside empowering their own class (c) do not understand what a game is.
I wish that you could ninja-join my guild, or register for our boards, just so you can see what an intelligent conversation about your patch notes looks like. It looks NOTHING like what is being posted here, to be honest.
Maybe I will try to summarize our feedback and PM Andy on the WA boards.
For the most part I would say the changes seem rational, in line with our expectations, and in some cases, good.
Ash
No I want them to read this thread, because if the Vault holds true to form, there will be some very good and accurate points made here by some of the posters. Even if it is only one or two things come to our attention that we overlooked, didn't consider, etc., it's worth the extra effort.
As to your guild, what server/realm/guild? Who knows where my travels will take me.
Gah! I just rolled a Zealot on Chaos Wastes because I was sick of my Shadow Warrior doing no damage and now it looks like SWs are getting actually buffed!
Well, it looks like I'm back on the Order side. SW is too much fun to let go now that they're competent.
Here is a compiled list of Chosen Abilities Issues and suggestions from that other forum...
General
Auras
Overall the community feels that the Auras are insignificant in the current game state, while being a class-defining mechanic. They feel they are tacked on as an addition.
Something that would help would make more abilities stronger if X Aura is up. (Similar to Blast Wave being enhanced when a Discordant Arua is up) Some thoughts are:
-Enraged Blow doing additional threat (or perhaps giving some small debuff) with a Corruption Aura
-Cleave also lowering armor with a Dread Aura
-Withering Blow draining more AP with a Dread Aura
-Repel knocking back further with a Corruption Aura
-Seeping Wound lasting longer with a Discordant Aura (or maybe lowering the target's Disrupt chance?)
Make the defensive portion of the aura have a larger range. Just the defensive buff.
Twisting Auras is cumbersome and we feel it is unnecessary. No other class in the game has to spam so many keys to use their defining mechanic.
There have been numerous suggestions to this in this thread. I won't pick a favorite, but any solution should involve NOT spamming auras to twist.
Activating an Aura triggers the Global Coold-down timer. However using a Style also trigger the Aura cool down timer.
Upon leaving a scenario, or zoning, your aura is removed, but the icon in your task bar still shows it as active.
Great Weapons
This type of weapon feels like an afterthought. There is no real tree for it, and very few specific abilities regarding it.
Abilities
Repel
-The knockback distance on this ability is far below any other class. Coupled with lag and fightin on uneven terrain, this ability can sometimes be rendered completely useless.
-Lag can cause some undesired effects. This isn't specific to Chosen, but affects us just the same.
Juggernaut
-This ability can be used even when the target is not affected by any negative effects.
-This ability doesn't remove the snare effects from Rock Clutch
-It is very frustrating that this ability does not fire an immunity timer such as those found in PvE. You can fire Juggernaut and a well timed snare will still affect you, negating this ability.
Champion's Challenge
-When using this ability, if you are knocked back, you are still rooted in place. This ability should cancel if you are knocked back, or you should be immune to knockbacks
-Due to lag, sometimes the target is rooted just out of melee range, which negates the entire ability AND roots us. Can short pull effect be added to pull them into melee range.
Tzeentch's Reflection
-The 3-second silence is too short to be useful. Can we have it brought up to 5 seconds to be in line with other silence abilities?
Ravage
-This ability works great. However, coupled with Discordant Instability and Blast Wave, it comes off as the only viable style to attack with. No other style we have will hit as hard especially since we can debuff the damage.
-Given the above, it is odd that this ability is in our Utility Tree, not the Damage Tree
-The effect for this style will stick to the weapon, and looks pretty hideous after a while
Cleave
-The AP cost of this, coupled with the low damage does not make it worth while. Accepting a block/parry average DPS deduction still makes Ravage more appealing.
-This ability has been reported to fail against Shield Wall
-This ability is also being blocked in PvE (Tier 4 Chaos Quest Mob below)
Dizzying Blow
The effect for this ability fires despite the attack being blocked or parried.
Guard
It is tough to tell who you are guarding, where they are in relationship to you, or if the guard is actually up and working. Either a range indicator on the icon, or a spell effect to show who you are guarding would be pretty helpful here.
Mixed Defenses
-The tooltip for this doesn't make sense: 0% for 0 seconds?
-This reportedly doesn't change anything in the character sheet and no noticeable effect to parry rates.
Bane Shield
-This ability does not do as much as the tooltip says
Dire Shielding
-This tactic is purchasable at level 21, but affects a level 35 skill. Maybe swap with Hastened Dismissal ?
Stats
Intelligence
-Some of our abilities (Blast Wave, Quake, etc) use this for the interrupt code. Most equipment for a Chosen does not contain this stat.
Shields
Menace
-Wrong model.
-Doesn't actually block
Great Weapons
-Items with our three main stats (Str, Wound/Tough, Weaponskill) are generally unavailable at higher levels (36+).
Slagrot's Claymore
-Model shows as a shield.
Brugg's Battle Axe
-Model shows as a Marauder 1-h weapon.
Shrunken Chosen
-Happens sometimes when we dismount. Multiple reported cases. Can be seen by other players too.
-Due to the abundance of DOT spells, it is very difficult to switch items/tactics/morale abilities, etc. This makes it very difficult to benefit from the multitude of lines available to choose from.
Bravo. Exactly the sort of thing that we should read. I hope that all the bugs contained here are already in our tracker but no matter what, thanks.
Those are some great Chosen ideas. Auras feel like they're supposed to be spec and/or opponenet specific. In practice, the generally don't affect much to be worth worrying about.
Those are some great Chosen ideas. Auras feel like they're supposed to be spec and/or opponenet specific. In practice, the generally don't affect much to be worth worrying about.
The only auras I regularly use are Discordant Fluctuation if there are a lot of Bright Wizards and the healing debuff aura. Recently I believe it was discovered the healing debuff aura actually buffs healing by 25% so I stopped using it for awhile.
With the overall nerf to crowd control abilites and the reduced effectiveness of HoT, the very squishy Bright Wizards will most likely be easier to take down. And a BW that dies faster means he'll have a harder time dishing out all that dps.
we don't know by how much, and it's subject to change anyway, but they seem to think that the BW/Sorc should be doing obscene amounts of damage, but at the cost of survivability (hence why they made their root useless)
we don't know by how much, and it's subject to change anyway, but they seem to think that the BW/Sorc should be doing obscene amounts of damage, but at the cost of survivability (hence why they made their root useless)
I still think BW's get a bit too much CC though
It doesn't matter by how much. BW/Sorc damage is already way above every other class, and the sorc specialty (AE) was basically left alone, while the BW specialty (loltabdot) was buffed.
It doesn't matter how much the buff is, because immolation was already overpowering.
I think the general gist is that root is near worthless and any class that was designed to turn casters to dust will be able to do so freely.
This may be the perception, but I don't know that it's true. With a decent heal team we can already have our sorcs run directly into an opposing zerg and have them still alive when the dust settles. But seriously, sorcs were mostly left alone, and their already stronger mirror gets buffed? Amazing.
I'd be down for the Chosen Aura mechanic to see some buffs or gain additional utility. Your aura should be a strategic force that can potentially change the flow of a battle. My thought would be something like a wow warr using stance dancing to bring forth different abilities.
Although the idea of Auras also buffing the associated mastery tree is a good one as well.
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Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
what sorc speciality was that? I think BW's have better AoE capabilities
Fire breath has a horrible range and is rarely used, Infernal wave is generally considered better (and can be combined with triumphant blasting for a 100 yard range AE knockback of doom on a 5 second cooldown.)
Shadow Knives is also significantly better than Spreading Flames. It's basically a pit of shades/rain of fire that follows people around for maximum pain.
Also, the big thing for sieges would be triumphant blasting, this is one thing that bright wizards don't have any analog to. Although with the nerf, we may see its usefulness diminish greatly.
Ahahahahahhaa, oh lord, this is fantastic. My White Lion's getting an anytime snare.
This is just sick. I've already got a 4.0 speed weapon swinging at 2.0, now I can keep people from escaping while I hit them with it without having to charge? Wheee!
I honestly feel like White Lions are verging on too powerful as it stands, this is like being handed a giant cake and told not to share. It feels unclean. All I can do is sit and laugh.
My thanks to those of you that are responding to my request for more information on bugs, broken abilities, etc. This is quite helpful so please keep it up. As I said, the team is reading this thread and they want as much as you do, to take care of all this stuff at the same time that 1.0.5 goes up. I hope that their answer will be that this stuff is already fixed (and didn't make the patch notes for some reason) or is slated to be fixed in 1.1. However, if we've missed things, we'll take care of it. BTW, please also keep in mind that these C&C changes were pulled in for 1.0.5 so it is possible that the code fixes to some of the bugs that are fixed in 1.1 weren't pulled in this version. If that is the case, we'll also see what we can do about pulling them in early as well.
They didn't really directly buff BW damage. It looks like they've normalized the spell coefficients for DoTs. This increased the damage on almost all DoTs in the game save a few that were doing more than the normalized value (such as Blindside). This had the side effect of buffing BWs. However, I'm going to wait and see how much the coefficient change is before I cry. The change to playing with fire is more than sufficient, because that was really the biggest issue.
overall I am incredibly happy with this patch. They've fixed several serious issues that were affecting all classes (such as DoT coefficients and pet classes being somewhat inferior) and also gave tons of specific buffs right where they were needed. Now it is twenty times harder to stick with one class because I can't really come up with serious complaints about any of them.
Also, the speed with which Mythic has come up with this stuff is really great, too. Things like the Ballistics -> Strength change for SW/SHs is massive in terms of itemization and specs. This is the kind of change that's taken Blizzard years to do. The fact that Mythic understands these kind of problems so early on and is so quick to fix them gives me great renewed hope for this game.
Posts
It could also be because Hammerers are not in the game and as such they obviously can not use hammers in the game.
Other than that, spend Grudge? Why the hell would I? It's too valuable a resource to waste on something like a mediocre three-target-max cone AoE. If his expectation was that IBs would naturally tend to fluctuate between 30-70 Grudge when in combat, the design of the class has completely missed that mark.
The three largest complaints I've encountered and agree with:
1) Aura Twisting: Auras are the Chosens class specialty. We are the only class where our defining mechanic is actively annoying to use. Not only that but most of the auras are pretty much worthless. The other ones sometimes have a barely noticeable effect.
2) Several abilities that are INT based: We already have to spread our attributes thin but we also have abilities that are INT based (Quake, Blast Wave off the top of my head). As a result as we reach higher levels the effectiveness of those abilities is actually going down due to the fact we can't stack +INT gear. Not only that but the resist % are out of whack. It is normal for both abilities to get disrupted about 50% of the time once you hit 40.
3) We have the most ineffective knockback (Repel) in the game. Mostly this has to do with the angle of the knockback. It is a very low angle and if there is the slightest incline behind whoever you hit with it they won't move back but about two inches.
There is a very informative thread in the Chosen forums of warhammeralliance that goes over all the bugs with our abilities. I'm at work though so I can't access that site (can PA though huzzah!)
Also Shield Sweep (the 3-target aoe cone) is supposed to refund 10 grudges for each target it hits, which it currently does not do.
Right, but why bother making its IB's only if eventually you'd have to do undo it -- its already de facto IB only since no one else has the hammer skill.
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if I remember things right from beta, Repel was a super long KB. Did they change that?
They won't have to "undo" anything... all they'd have to do is add "Hammerer" to the description of careers who are able to use it. So they aren't removing anything, they're just adding it in.
For example, no weapons currently say they're usable by the Knight of the Blazing Sun yet, and once the KotBS is in, they'll add them to weapon descriptions.
Blorc knockback has the same problem, it is not a Chosen specific issue.
Yeah, that Ironbreaker knockback has the same problem. :!:
Pffshh...
Teehee....
Bwahahahaha!
Great, I didn't play in beta so I don't know what it was like then. Now even if it goes off and terrain doesn't block it then maybe it is about 3/4 of the IB single target KB.
as rAC said, when they add Hammerer it will say Usable by: Ironbreaker, Hammerer
You misunderstand. The text is "All Dwarf great hammer items in the game are now set to be useable by Iron Breakers only. " Which means they all get an IB only tag that they would either have to add Hammerers to or remove again when hammerers go live. Since there are already weapon skills that prevent the use of great hammers to everyone but IBs in game, its a largely irrelevant change otherwise. I've gotten plenty of weapons w/o a specific "X only" tag that are class specific because of that anyway.
But I don't really care about IBs or Hammerers or w/e. I was just suggesting a possible reason people are interpreting it as a likely removal of hammerers later.
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How can I run around as anything but a Witch Elf named Violent Violet?
Well, it looks like I'm back on the Order side. SW is too much fun to let go now that they're competent.
Violet Violent.
I'm interested where they go with healing, however.
That name is taken too! I guess I have to start a new character now or something...
Why exactly did they buff bright wizard damage?
The only auras I regularly use are Discordant Fluctuation if there are a lot of Bright Wizards and the healing debuff aura. Recently I believe it was discovered the healing debuff aura actually buffs healing by 25% so I stopped using it for awhile.
Because Bright Wizards are the weakest class in game, duh.
At least that's what I think they went with.
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we don't know by how much, and it's subject to change anyway, but they seem to think that the BW/Sorc should be doing obscene amounts of damage, but at the cost of survivability (hence why they made their root useless)
I still think BW's get a bit too much CC though
I think the general gist is that root is near worthless and any class that was designed to turn casters to dust will be able to do so freely.
It doesn't matter by how much. BW/Sorc damage is already way above every other class, and the sorc specialty (AE) was basically left alone, while the BW specialty (loltabdot) was buffed.
It doesn't matter how much the buff is, because immolation was already overpowering.
This may be the perception, but I don't know that it's true. With a decent heal team we can already have our sorcs run directly into an opposing zerg and have them still alive when the dust settles. But seriously, sorcs were mostly left alone, and their already stronger mirror gets buffed? Amazing.
Although the idea of Auras also buffing the associated mastery tree is a good one as well.
Fire breath has a horrible range and is rarely used, Infernal wave is generally considered better (and can be combined with triumphant blasting for a 100 yard range AE knockback of doom on a 5 second cooldown.)
Shadow Knives is also significantly better than Spreading Flames. It's basically a pit of shades/rain of fire that follows people around for maximum pain.
Also, the big thing for sieges would be triumphant blasting, this is one thing that bright wizards don't have any analog to. Although with the nerf, we may see its usefulness diminish greatly.
This is just sick. I've already got a 4.0 speed weapon swinging at 2.0, now I can keep people from escaping while I hit them with it without having to charge? Wheee!
I honestly feel like White Lions are verging on too powerful as it stands, this is like being handed a giant cake and told not to share. It feels unclean. All I can do is sit and laugh.
overall I am incredibly happy with this patch. They've fixed several serious issues that were affecting all classes (such as DoT coefficients and pet classes being somewhat inferior) and also gave tons of specific buffs right where they were needed. Now it is twenty times harder to stick with one class because I can't really come up with serious complaints about any of them.
Also, the speed with which Mythic has come up with this stuff is really great, too. Things like the Ballistics -> Strength change for SW/SHs is massive in terms of itemization and specs. This is the kind of change that's taken Blizzard years to do. The fact that Mythic understands these kind of problems so early on and is so quick to fix them gives me great renewed hope for this game.
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Cause we were just so dominant.
Ah well, DoK alt, you grow tastier by the day.
So horrible, that's how great.
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