Most people won't hit their grudge day one with a vig or mafia kill, anyway, because it would be too obvious that they would be behind it. (e.g., MacGuffin in the vampire phalla kept us away from taking kime out early).
Yeah, the bugs were underpowered. I was trying to avoid giving them a straight out kill because I thought that would have been overpowered, what with...IIRC 6 non-conditional kills and 2 conditional ones. Should have accounted for role blocking though. Speaking of which I had no idea why LS didn't just jail drez when they knew he basically came out saying, "Hey, I'm a vig, but some asshole keeps blocking me." but maybe I'm just not as crafty. The second riddle thing, which was way too meta, was that abysmal lynx was targeting gumpy each night. For toob and squib, I was really sad when you guys died so early. Also, infidel totally saved my ass on day 3 by writing the narration up and pming people, so you should all give him a hug, or booze/hookers.
I'm going to Vig a few selected people D1 when I get the chance. Grudge kills are fun. (You're not on that list, if it matters).
Grudge kills are the dumbest shit on the fucking forum.
People who cry about grudge kills are the dumbest people in the forum.
No, grudge kills are the dumbest thing on this forum, bar absolutely nothing. Each game is a separate entity from every other game. Grudge voting and especially grudge kills are so unbelievably obnoxious.
Yea each game is seperate, blah blah. No one EVER metagames previous games or ANYTHING.
Oh yes, a lot of people do. And they are all dumb.
You make it sound as though I give a damn that it's a popular activity, or that that makes it right. I don't and it doesn't.
Look, voting for someone on Day One as a grudge, that's one thing. Starting a bandwagon on the person, or killing them outright is just a dick move.
Yeah, the bugs were underpowered. I was trying to avoid giving them a straight out kill because I thought that would have been overpowered, what with...IIRC 6 non-conditional kills and 2 conditional ones. Should have accounted for role blocking though. Speaking of which I had no idea why LS didn't just jail drez when they knew he basically came out saying, "Hey, I'm a vig, but some asshole keeps blocking me." but maybe I'm just not as crafty. The second riddle thing, which was way too meta, was that abysmal lynx was targeting gumpy each night. For toob and squib, I was really sad when you guys died so early. Also, infidel totally saved my ass on day 3 by writing the narration up and pming people, so you should all give him a hug, or booze/hookers.
Do you know why nobody saw me attack Gumpy on Day One?
Really enjoyable game btw. I have no idea why both baddie groups let me live for so long.
Yeah, the bugs were underpowered. I was trying to avoid giving them a straight out kill because I thought that would have been overpowered, what with...IIRC 6 non-conditional kills and 2 conditional ones. Should have accounted for role blocking though. Speaking of which I had no idea why LS didn't just jail drez when they knew he basically came out saying, "Hey, I'm a vig, but some asshole keeps blocking me." but maybe I'm just not as crafty. The second riddle thing, which was way too meta, was that abysmal lynx was targeting gumpy each night. For toob and squib, I was really sad when you guys died so early. Also, infidel totally saved my ass on day 3 by writing the narration up and pming people, so you should all give him a hug, or booze/hookers.
Do you know why nobody saw me attack Gumpy on Day One?
Really enjoyable game btw. I have no idea why both baddie groups let me live for so long.
Us bugs only had 2 opportunities for guaranteed kills the entire game (and those could likely have been guarded against).
And a question Drez: What makes grudge kills worse than RNG kills? And if both are just as bad, what should someone with a vig ability do day 1? Nothing? From what I've seen, there is never enough data day 1 to pick a legitimate vig target day 1 unless you are the mafia (at which point anyone not mafia is fair game). And I honestly can't see enough reason not to use a vig ability just because you don't have a good target.
Us bugs only had 2 opportunities for guaranteed kills the entire game (and those could likely have been guarded against).
And a question Drez: What makes grudge kills worse than RNG kills? And if both are just as bad, what should someone with a vig ability do day 1? Nothing? From what I've seen, there is never enough data day 1 to pick a legitimate vig target day 1 unless you are the mafia (at which point anyone not mafia is fair game). And I honestly can't see enough reason not to use a vig ability just because you don't have a good target.
Grudge kills establish a meta-line of continuity between games which doesn't sound exactly bad at first blush but it gives a huge advantage to those who have played more beyond the experience they would have already picked up.
Would you take a pledge of trust as serious from some random punk as you would Ardor?
Bug boards unlocked, sorry guys, I spent all day watching DVDs and playing some Dawn of War.
Anyway.
I did love this game, even if we did lose. I was pretty sure we would, though, once we all started getting outed. I should've probably advised against contacting Gumpy, but...
I also appreciate all of you not putting 2 and 2 together in this thread and vigging me the instant EBM went batshit.
The funny part is, all that was based on a comment I made trying to be ironic. It was a fucking joke, but there's really no point explaining that to someone who's going insane on you, as Infidel kindly pointed out. Ahava and I didn't actually have a pregame alliance, we never do. We simply haven't ever run into a circumstance where either of us had to lie to the other before (normally, we're on the same side). This time, we both lied to each other, and I love that she was able to. It only reaffirms me in my belief that she and I can chat about Phalla and she won't feel any worse for fucking me over than I will for fucking HER over.
Spectre, i was sorry to see you go. Someday, I hope to end up evil with you again, so I can request that you teach me everything you fucking know. If people kill you by day 4 because otherwise you win the game, I want to be you, man. *L*
I'm sorry Max died, too. I was hoping he'd live long enough to make use of his new conversion ability. So sad we didn't do better...
Glad to be a part of this game, guys. Thanks for the fun.
Early game grudges are the result of not having any information to go on. I think more games need mechanics specifically designed to make day one eventful, so that people aren't just shooting blind. Half the discussion day one is normally about basic game mechanics and/or fluff, so really there's nothing for a vig to go on.
People may be dumb and gun for people due to past losses, but generally when given a way to help them win now, they'll take that road instead. Often day one you sit looking at a list of names, none of them any more suspect than the others, so you figure hey, why not be a dick. It's still a dickish move, but it's a problem that can be averted through game design.
Exarch on
No gods or kings, only man.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
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EvilBadmanDO NOT TRUST THIS MANRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
I'm going to finish by stating I have seen people agreeing with my stance, and coming forward supporting me privately, presumably to avoid becoming a pariah. Everyone else is going to stick their fingers in their ears and deny everything. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Us bugs only had 2 opportunities for guaranteed kills the entire game (and those could likely have been guarded against).
And a question Drez: What makes grudge kills worse than RNG kills? And if both are just as bad, what should someone with a vig ability do day 1? Nothing? From what I've seen, there is never enough data day 1 to pick a legitimate vig target day 1 unless you are the mafia (at which point anyone not mafia is fair game). And I honestly can't see enough reason not to use a vig ability just because you don't have a good target.
Grudge kills establish a meta-line of continuity between games which doesn't sound exactly bad at first blush but it gives a huge advantage to those who have played more beyond the experience they would have already picked up.
Would you take a pledge of trust as serious from some random punk as you would Ardor?
That was fun. I got to be in two networks. The one thing I'm wondering though is who killed me?
The_Reflection
And it was my fault. I had some minor suspicion of you and threw your name his way.
I floated your name to Gumpy first after he suggested Wildcat to me. I attacked Wildcat but I asked T_R to kill you and he did.
Sorry about that. I guess Gumpy did not wholly trust me at that point because he did not give me any indication that you would be a BAD target. The language he used made it sound like he didn't think about you any which way.
I was a pretty awful vig, all told.
No hard feelings, that's just how the game goes. It does suck to be taken out by your own allies though.
Us bugs only had 2 opportunities for guaranteed kills the entire game (and those could likely have been guarded against).
And a question Drez: What makes grudge kills worse than RNG kills? And if both are just as bad, what should someone with a vig ability do day 1? Nothing? From what I've seen, there is never enough data day 1 to pick a legitimate vig target day 1 unless you are the mafia (at which point anyone not mafia is fair game). And I honestly can't see enough reason not to use a vig ability just because you don't have a good target.
Grudge kills establish a meta-line of continuity between games which doesn't sound exactly bad at first blush but it gives a huge advantage to those who have played more beyond the experience they would have already picked up.
Would you take a pledge of trust as serious from some random punk as you would Ardor?
I'm going to finish by stating I have seen people agreeing with my stance, and coming forward supporting me privately, presumably to avoid becoming a pariah. Everyone else is going to stick their fingers in their ears and deny everything. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I for one also think that pregame alliances are dumb.
However, you were killed by someone who didn't know who you were or anything else about you.
this was my first time, I was excited to have a role like a target seer and leading to Maximus's death. What happened was Night 3 or something I target seered Krata targetting Maximus. When Krata was shown as a bug I target seered Maximus, who targetted Inquisitor who was jailed. I assumed Max jailed Inquis. That was probably my biggest contribution. That made me content with my role
I think one thing that really got the bad guys down quick was unintended crossfire.
this was my first time, I was excited to have a role like a target seer and leading to Maximus's death. What happened was Night 3 or something I target seered Krata targetting Maximus. When Krata was shown as a bug I target seered Maximus, who targetted Inquisitor who was jailed. I assumed Max jailed Inquis. That was probably my biggest contribution. That made me content with my role
I think one thing that really got the bad guys down quick was unintended crossfire.
Hellz yeah! Can't believe I had to so plainly spell out that I was a ganger to the other gangers, I thought the kris kross jump lyrics would have done the trick.
I don't know...manipulating extremely new players seems somewhat in poor taste..
This is not something I agree with. I mean I certainly feel guilty about it later, but like I said, each game is its own game, which cuts both ways.
Really, phalla is all about psychology and social engineering. It's not exactly "meta" to carry the skills you've cultivated in multiple previous games over to a new one. And I think avoiding noobs is a bad idea. I was leery of killing Crownaxe because I didn't want to kill some dude that has like 30 posts total in his entire PA career. But then I realized that was a mistake (plus Gumpy suggested him as a target - in fact, I forgot, I recommended The_Reflection kill Lynx over Crownaxe which was damned dumb on my part).
Posts
Most people won't hit their grudge day one with a vig or mafia kill, anyway, because it would be too obvious that they would be behind it. (e.g., MacGuffin in the vampire phalla kept us away from taking kime out early).
Oh yes, a lot of people do. And they are all dumb.
You make it sound as though I give a damn that it's a popular activity, or that that makes it right. I don't and it doesn't.
Look, voting for someone on Day One as a grudge, that's one thing. Starting a bandwagon on the person, or killing them outright is just a dick move.
Do you know why nobody saw me attack Gumpy on Day One?
Really enjoyable game btw. I have no idea why both baddie groups let me live for so long.
Us bugs only had 2 opportunities for guaranteed kills the entire game (and those could likely have been guarded against).
And a question Drez: What makes grudge kills worse than RNG kills? And if both are just as bad, what should someone with a vig ability do day 1? Nothing? From what I've seen, there is never enough data day 1 to pick a legitimate vig target day 1 unless you are the mafia (at which point anyone not mafia is fair game). And I honestly can't see enough reason not to use a vig ability just because you don't have a good target.
3DS: 0963-0539-4405
Grudge kills establish a meta-line of continuity between games which doesn't sound exactly bad at first blush but it gives a huge advantage to those who have played more beyond the experience they would have already picked up.
Would you take a pledge of trust as serious from some random punk as you would Ardor?
I enjoyed playing it, and watching it.
I will grudge vote Darkewolfe (please note not grudge kill) for a few games.
Mostly just because it gives me something to do on a day one.
Anybody has any other problems or questions for me about the accusations that EBM levelled at me, they can PM me.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Anyway.
I did love this game, even if we did lose. I was pretty sure we would, though, once we all started getting outed. I should've probably advised against contacting Gumpy, but...
I also appreciate all of you not putting 2 and 2 together in this thread and vigging me the instant EBM went batshit.
The funny part is, all that was based on a comment I made trying to be ironic. It was a fucking joke, but there's really no point explaining that to someone who's going insane on you, as Infidel kindly pointed out. Ahava and I didn't actually have a pregame alliance, we never do. We simply haven't ever run into a circumstance where either of us had to lie to the other before (normally, we're on the same side). This time, we both lied to each other, and I love that she was able to. It only reaffirms me in my belief that she and I can chat about Phalla and she won't feel any worse for fucking me over than I will for fucking HER over.
Spectre, i was sorry to see you go. Someday, I hope to end up evil with you again, so I can request that you teach me everything you fucking know. If people kill you by day 4 because otherwise you win the game, I want to be you, man. *L*
I'm sorry Max died, too. I was hoping he'd live long enough to make use of his new conversion ability. So sad we didn't do better...
Glad to be a part of this game, guys. Thanks for the fun.
Also, Drez.
I don't hate you. I promise.
People may be dumb and gun for people due to past losses, but generally when given a way to help them win now, they'll take that road instead. Often day one you sit looking at a list of names, none of them any more suspect than the others, so you figure hey, why not be a dick. It's still a dickish move, but it's a problem that can be averted through game design.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Exactly.
OK.
No hard feelings, that's just how the game goes. It does suck to be taken out by your own allies though.
There are some other punks I would trust ;-)
I for one also think that pregame alliances are dumb.
However, you were killed by someone who didn't know who you were or anything else about you.
This undercuts your whole argument.
An argument doesn't have to be specifically applicable to be generally correct.
I do disagree with how outraged he was and how he voiced his concerns, however.
There are better ways of going about this sort of thing.
I think one thing that really got the bad guys down quick was unintended crossfire.
Holy hell my bug sacrifice was targetted?
No wonder we all got splattered.
:P
SO MUCH RIGHT NOW
:P
Haha, I tried goddammit, I TRIED!!!
On one hand, a new player is more likely to trust someone blindly.
On the other hand, Ardor could be manipulating said new player.
Weighing the options, I probably would trust a new player more than a vet, because vets are (generally) sneakier.
Cause Vets are not nice. *L*
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
My point exactly, you mean mean evil evil bad bad man!
Bad Spectre! Bad!!!
Newbies:: Always trust Spectre. Until Day 3.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Okay, bad idea. You COULD do it, but that would be too boring.
edit - everyone should always trust me
Steam
I don't know...manipulating extremely new players seems somewhat in poor taste..
Also, if you're gonna play the role of a villain, you may as well go all in. Knowhadimean?
This is not something I agree with. I mean I certainly feel guilty about it later, but like I said, each game is its own game, which cuts both ways.
Really, phalla is all about psychology and social engineering. It's not exactly "meta" to carry the skills you've cultivated in multiple previous games over to a new one. And I think avoiding noobs is a bad idea. I was leery of killing Crownaxe because I didn't want to kill some dude that has like 30 posts total in his entire PA career. But then I realized that was a mistake (plus Gumpy suggested him as a target - in fact, I forgot, I recommended The_Reflection kill Lynx over Crownaxe which was damned dumb on my part).
If they act suspicious in any way, I will use a kill/bandwagon them in a heartbeat.
I was so scared you were going to bandwagon me on day one.
Yes, because trusting you never gets anyone killed because you slept through vote close.