In the past it has been argued that the Black Guard is anti-caster and thus lacks this [armor debuff], but the Black Guard simply isn't an effective anti-caster unless they spec for it and take very particular tactics. If the Black Guard is losing out on their anti-melee to be anti-caster, then they need to be anti-caster at their base.
I really have to disagree with you on this one Iblis. I haven't played a BG (but i theorycraft compulsively and have played a tank extensively, so I have a good handle on their skills/tactics) so I'll refrain from making any generalizations on the performance of the class. That said, it has been made clear that BG's are primarily meant to take out (or otherwise nullify) casters, the fact that they have to spend tactic slots and master points to achieve this stated goal is just a fact of the game. Every class has to spend their tactic slots in order to fulfill the role that their class is designed for. Your argument is like saying that a rune priest/zealot shouldn't have to spend their tactic slots/mastery points on healing tactics to fulfill their role as a main healer, or a witch hunter/elf shouldn't have to spend tactics/mastery points to burst down squishies. Tanks always win fights by attrition, and BG's are pretty unique in their proficiency at mitigating damage/healing done by casters which helps them win fights that normal tanks would lose. There has to be a downside to this strength, though. It would be crazy for BG's to be as effective against casters as they are and still be on the same level as every other tank against beefier melee opponents.
I think the presence of an entire mastery tree devoted to countering magic classes is a pretty big hint on how you are supposed to spec/use the character. Now, I'm not one to argue that anyone has to spec their toon in a certain way, but if you ignore the anti-magic tree, then you're really robbing yourself of your niche in the game. It's like a rune priest spec'ed for damage; you can still (maybe) make a good contribution to your team, but you probably aren't going to come close to the contribution you could make if you specialized your character to better fit their intended role.
Anyway, BG are probably suffering from being the role mirror of the sword master. Now that's a class that really needs an overhaul =/
I'm not saying they shouldn't have to use tactics, I'm saying that we should be anti-caster at base if that is to be our desgination and if we do not get anti-caster skills and abilities with out the use of tactics AND spec line, then we should not suffer for being "anti-caster" by losing out on the armor penetration skill.
Chosen can spec to be anti-caster as well and yet they do not lose out on anti-melee skills or core tank skills just because of the possibility to spec anti-caster. If the Black Guard is the "anti-caster" tank, then their skills should reflect this BEFORE mastery points and tactics are put into the equation. Not after. And this is all ignoring the ability for several squishy "casters" to bolster their armor.
Furthermore, I am planning on putting points into Anguish, but what you just essentially argued is that a Black Guard should have to spec Anguish to fulfil a role that they are apparently losing out in other areas for. So in other words, a Black Guard should have to spec Anguish period. Except to be an effective anti-caster, you need to pretty much take the tactics in particular, because three of the abilities are not explicitly anti-magic at all.
Compare this to the Magus for example, where if one wants to Spec Havoc, the important thing to grab is the abilities which help round out the Magus's attack chain with the tactics being nice bonuses for how you want to customize your character.
Not to mention that if the Black Guard is anti-caster, ALL their trees should reflect this. Not just one.
Edit: And I should mention your example on Zealots/Runepriests is pretty bad, as it would be closer to say that to fulfil their intended healer role they should have to use tactics and HAVE to spec alchemy/whatever the Runepriest equivalent tree is called and would have to take all the tactics instead of customizing their character, and would not able to heal at all aside from maybe a single HoT until they did this.
Chosen can spec to be anti-caster as well and yet they do not lose out on anti-melee skills or core tank skills just because of the possibility to spec anti-caster. If the Black Guard is the "anti-caster" tank, then their skills should reflect this BEFORE mastery points and tactics are put into the equation. Not after.
I really don't think you're correct here. All tanks including the BG have the same core tank skills, so chosen aren't getting anything there that BG's aren't (aside from a non-bugged hold the line). I'm not sure what you mean here exactly by anti-melee skills on the chosen, they don't have an armor reduction attack either. Granted they do have a spirit damage attack, but really, if you use a core ability that's tied to a mastery line you don't spec in it's not going to be very effective. Also BG's have a 10% reduction to a target's block/parry rate baseline, which is pretty nice against a tank, as over time it's a roughly 20% increase in damage.
Secondly, I think there's a a good argument to be made that BG's are still much better than an average tank at killing a caster. The have a baseline toughness debuff, which in practice is roughly similar to an armor debuff, but remains effective against casters where an armor debuff would be pointless. They also have a (LONG! w/ hate) disorient baseline, which is hugely helpful against anyone, not to mention a stackable int/wil debuff.
Chosen can spec to be anti-caster as well and yet they do not lose out on anti-melee skills or core tank skills just because of the possibility to spec anti-caster. If the Black Guard is the "anti-caster" tank, then their skills should reflect this BEFORE mastery points and tactics are put into the equation. Not after.
I really don't think you're correct here. All tanks including the BG have the same core tank skills, so chosen aren't getting anything there that BG's aren't (aside from a non-bugged hold the line). I'm not sure what you mean here exactly by anti-melee skills on the chosen, they don't have an armor reduction attack either. Granted they do have a spirit damage attack, but really, if you use a core ability that's tied to a mastery line you don't spec in it's not going to be very effective. Also BG's have a 10% reduction to a target's block/parry rate baseline, which is pretty nice against a tank, as over time it's a roughly 20% increase in damage.
Secondly, I think there's a a good argument to be made that BG's are still much better than an average tank at killing a caster. The have a baseline toughness debuff, which in practice is roughly similar to an armor debuff, but remains effective against casters where an armor debuff would be pointless. They also have a (LONG! w/ hate) disorient baseline, which is hugely helpful against anyone, not to mention a stackable int/wil debuff.
They have a skill which bypasses armor by doing spirit damage, which is explicitly anti-armor. The devs have mentioned that is it's intended use, explicitly to counter heavily armored targets. And the skill you just mentioned takes a massive amount of hate to use, which would then lower the Black Guard's damage output further. Not to say it's a useless skill, but it's not incredible either and does little to help the Black Guard bypass a wall of armor where as the opposing Tank, whether Ironbreaker, Knob, or Swordmaster will.
And if you do not think an anti-armor skill is useful against casters, then I believe you are quite crazy. Not to mention the toughness debuff, once again, takes hate to use and thus slows down damage. Sure, it lasts twenty seconds, but then the question becomes if it makes enough of a difference to bother with if it is not a sturdy target.
The disorient is relatively useful, yes, but it's essentially one skill. The Black Orc gets this for example. And Chosen get this. The stackable intelligence/will debuff is about equivalent to the Sorceress's Word of Pain... or in other words, not worth using, let alone bothering to stack.
They have a very slight orientation, but so does the Chosen, and they still get a designated anti-armor skill.
Edit: And I should mention that I'm not arguing that they aren't oriented towards an anti-caster role, but that they are barely "better" at this role than other Tanks. The Black Guard is marginally better than other Tanks at taking out and harassing squishy classes, and even that is arguable, as the other tanks tend to get some pretty nice advantages that could very well outweigh this slight advantage. Unless the Black Guard specs Anguish, but that hardly justifies the lack of the standard anti-armor skill because of the possibility of speccing Anguish.
I hope the next in their line of class balancing looks over each archetype. The first should be tanks because they're sort of the baseline which other classes need to work off of. Then MDPS, healers, and lastly RDPS.
I personally think the anti-caster abilities should be reflected in the blackguard as a whole, but I think they've done this to a decent extent already. One thing you have to realize is that the BG is a tank. The toughness debuff is to help your team kill shit while you direct them from the front. The blackguard has more abilities to shut down a healer than a base blorc or chosen. The blorc gets a silence, but that's not great on its own. I'd personally rather have a movement barb.
As to hate issues on the blackguard, I think most of them haven't even figured out taunting generates hate. That is ridiculous and should be used every cooldown. It's also an interrupt, and they should be doing it anyway.
ghost_master: I think the black orc ideally should be a CC monster. They have an ability to kick someone in the nads, but aren't at the point that ironbreakers are. I do have alot of fun, despite my bitching. Especially with DoKs. Unfortunately, my DoK friend quit for a magus.
What do you think about a friendly pounce? Literally leaping to the defense of a groupmate. It would also probably be used as an offensive support and escape mechanism. Just a thought.
Thus far I've just been running into the thick of things, and then trying to goad people into attacking me. So far it's worked out quite well, but I have a feeling that if I shifted my strategy somewhat I could be more effective.
Thus far I've just been running into the thick of things, and then trying to goad people into attacking me. So far it's worked out quite well, but I have a feeling that if I shifted my strategy somewhat I could be more effective.
Well, there are two roles for tanks, I think. One is the "run in and go ooga booga" type tank, which is what you've been doing. The Blorc abilities work well in this respect, since you're a little less reliant on backup than other tank classes due to your self-healing capabilities. You contribute most in this role when partnering up with a melee DPS'er, someone you can Guard and stick close to when in the thick of things. A Marauder buddy is best in that respect, you can Guard him, set him as your defensive target and give him some buffs, etc.
The other tank role is a sort of backline defender, you stick close to RDPS and healers and do your utmost to snare, knockdown and knockback any MDPS who try to mess with your squishies. You can actually get away with using a two-hander in this sort of context since you're less likely to be getting focus fired. If you try to pull off a charge into their ranks without a shield, you usually end up dead if you don't have serious healer backup. If you're the only tank though, I think it's best to put on your shield and take up the "go make friends / smash faces" type role, as otherwise you end up waiting for MDPS while their RDPS gets to free-cast nukes onto your team.
For Chaos tanks, I actually think the Chosen does a little better in the backline guard role, as their AoE auras end up contributing more in the backline where you tend to get a cluster of healers and RDPS, and their CC capability is a little stronger if you include masteries. But a Blorc can do it pretty well also, and if you've already got other tanks running into the other team and causing some havok but nobody watching the healers and RDPS, it's still completely worth it for you to take up that role.
Maybe it's because my other toon is a Witch Elf, but I absolutely love messing with MDPS. On the Ironbreaker, I have so many CC options I can really make it hard for them to contribute damage on targets. It's like I can almost taste their frustration, and it is the sweetest of nectars.
Most tanks can accomplish most of their role just by getting one step ahead of everyone else and hitting Hold the Line. It seems like as long as you're the closest tab target you'll attract at least half of the attacks. Once stuff gets close use your crowd control and keep your taunts up. With my Chosen I actually like to run in ahead of the MDPS and start wailing on their healer. I either die really, really quickly or we drop a healer or two doing this.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
So.
If I was tanking a boss and my log said hit me for 230 damage (180 mitigated).
Does that mean I only got hit for 230-180 or is it that if I was a naked squishy I'd have been hit for 410?
Just easily tanked that boss that splits into bits that was really fun.
Especially the start I love tanking demons. So whacky and weird and in your face. HAH TAKE THAT DAEMON BITCH WHAM WHAM WHAM.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
The way I understand it, if you cop a hit for 100, and 80 is mitigated, you only took 20 damage. It's not saying you took 100, and if squishier you woulda been hit for 180, I think. Besides, the first way sounds more badass, and that's why I'm pretty sure it's right!
It's awesome when you fight average Joe mob, or even some players, and they hit you for 100, and 95 is mitigated.
Gosh, armor is neat.
Morblitz on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
Are you joking.
I mitigated 180 of 230?
My armor isn't really that good, I have around 380 toughness. That's all toughness!
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
It means you got hit for 230 I believe. If you were naked you would have been hit for 410. A squishy would have been hit even harder probably since they lack the toughness tanks have and those figures are post toughness reduction. You never see the actual raw damage numbers prior to toughness.
Saammiel on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
?
But I was seeing definite high mit numbers after increasing my toughness, but necessarily my resistance, on my dok. This is on a bw dot, pre that patch that balanced them.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Also take into account your armor rating, it's not all toughness. Before 1.1 my armor rating was 100% with a swordmaster buff and devastator gear. I was mitigating so much I should have been paid for it. Not much could hurt me that wasn't magic or armor penetration. That's with players and most mobs, Heroes always hurt.
I'm pretty sure the number in the brackets is what is subtracted from the total damage. IE 180-80.
Next time you fight a mob, check the combat log, it might say like, you hit joe mob for 100 (2 mitigated).
Morblitz on
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Also take into account your armor rating, it's not all toughness. Before 1.1 my armor rating was 100% with a swordmaster buff and devastator gear. I was mitigating so much I should have been paid for it. Not much could hurt me that wasn't magic or armor penetration. That's with players and most mobs, Heroes always hurt.
I'm pretty sure the number in the brackets is what is subtracted from the total damage. IE 180-80.
Next time you fight a mob, check the combat log, it might say like, you hit joe mob for 100 (2 mitigated).
It really shouldn't be too hard to test if you can get to a keep door. IIRC keep doors have 0 toughness and 0 armor. So just swing at a keep door and record the damage. Then swing at a mob. If the damage totals from the mob don't add up to the damage totals from the door, toughness isn't being recorded in the damage numbers being shown. Need to hit a white mob probably, since I think NPCs have some coefficient being applied to damage above and beyond just Armor/Toughness scaling once you get into orange/red con NPCs.
so, i finally put together the obliterator set for my BG, the 3 part set bonus adding 2 lvls to crushing spite. however, no such move seems to exist...am i missing something?
so, i finally put together the obliterator set for my BG, the 3 part set bonus adding 2 lvls to crushing spite. however, no such move seems to exist...am i missing something?
You're not the only one to notice this, I've seen posts on it over at WHA. It may be it's a typo and the 2 levels are applied to Spiteful Slam or Crushing Anger. You can check by taking off a piece of the set to remove that set bonus, and see if the level number in the tooltip for either of those abilities drops by two. Even if the set bonus applies to one of them, I'd bug report it anyway.
Mitigated damage in the combat log is the amount of additional damage you would have taken if you had 0 armor/resists. I'm pretty sure Toughness is applied before that so it doesn't factor into mitigation.
Uh yeah. I started playing my Blorc again after reading how wtfpwnbbq they were on the main thread. I had gotten him up to 12 before setting him aside. And he's been sitting pretty in IC for months.
All I can say is he's a right 'ard unkillable bastard. I honestly didn't remember him being so durable. So I'm getting used to Da Plan system again, and actually not doing badly. Especially since they fixed Skull Thumper. Going Brawla, but prolly gonna do a Brawla/Toughest or /Boss later on, depending on whether a few Boss tactics are bugged or not.
And I love the Greenskin vibe. I catch myself talking Orc-y all the time, and i'm not even RP-ing.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
I got chosen obliterator third piece and despite the tool tip saying there is a 3rd set bonus that bonus has a blank information section
as in:
2 Piece: +27 strength
3 Piece:
eg haha you are boned.
Someone said it does Ravage but I tried with or without it and noticed no ravage damage increase.
Although with my old armor with more strength it does a lot more.
The 2% block is neat? But it's not enough considering on top of that dissapearing set bonus the damn thing looks pathetic. It doesn't even have chainmail coverings on the legs and arms so with the other armor bits I have I look like a twit.
I'm willing to change my mind if I can find out if it's truly bugged tooltip and it does actually do something neat.
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So on my level 14 chosen tonight I was doing some solo questing and playing catch up with my guild. I was soloing level 19 mobs with over 80% of my health left. It it supposed to be like that?
And now that I hit R15 I'm in pretty much all new armor (that I got mostly from solo questing through R13/14) and my armor just jumped about 260 points. I'm pretty confident I could solo a 21 mob now without really breaking a sweat which would be a six level difference. That seems like more than it should be. (Not that I'm arguing :P )
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
So on my level 14 chosen tonight I was doing some solo questing and playing catch up with my guild. I was soloing level 19 mobs with over 80% of my health left. It it supposed to be like that?
And now that I hit R15 I'm in pretty much all new armor (that I got mostly from solo questing through R13/14) and my armor just jumped about 260 points. I'm pretty confident I could solo a 21 mob now without really breaking a sweat which would be a six level difference. That seems like more than it should be. (Not that I'm arguing :P )
No that's normal.
Morninglord on
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Is it just me or do the BG mastery paths seem to have swapped a few abilities with each other?
Khaine's Warding and Blast of Hatred seem like they need to switch sides. KW requires blocking yet that same path has an ability that requires a greatweapon.
Elite Training is in the anti-caster line but it improves parry, not blocking. You can't parry magic so it seems like None Shall Pass would be a better fit.
Just seems odd that the defensive path for BG have no group utility abilities while the anti-caster path has one and the offensive path has two. Short of the two snares at the top, (which is another point for swapping KW and BoH...why do you need two AE snares in a row?) the defensive path doesn't have any debuffs either. Such a selfish, selfish mastery set.
Is it just me or do the BG mastery paths seem to have swapped a few abilities with each other?
Khaine's Warding and Blast of Hatred seem like they need to switch sides. KW requires blocking yet that same path has an ability that requires a greatweapon.
Elite Training is in the anti-caster line but it improves parry, not blocking. You can't parry magic so it seems like None Shall Pass would be a better fit.
Just seems odd that the defensive path for BG have no group utility abilities while the anti-caster path has one and the offensive path has two. Short of the two snares at the top, (which is another point for swapping KW and BoH...why do you need two AE snares in a row?) the defensive path doesn't have any debuffs either. Such a selfish, selfish mastery set.
They were just following the Zealot design philosophy regarding talent placement, i.e. "throw darts at an empty mastery tree and pretend like you had a plan."
Well guys, remember that when you get to 40 and get more RRs, you get more mastery paths so that you can invest in other trees and become a Hybrid. So having a few lower abilities that are appealing are good to have.
It could be worse, look what they did with the Rank 4 morales for Ironbreakers. They switched Vengeance and Stones for no apparent god damned reason, so now the Great Weapon heavy DPS line has a morale ability that increases your block rate.
edit: Okay, nevermind. Just looked at the BG paths, was not aware you were talking about their rank 4 morales, so, exact same damned problem. It really makes no sense.
Yeah, it is really strange how many of these Morales/abilities seem to be completely random. For example, the BG Hold the Line! has a 60 sec cooldown that is shared by no other tank.
Some blorcs are saying that their HtL is completely broken. So its just so random.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Haven't played my chosen in a long time (probably 3 weeks after release?), and he's stuck at L25.
You guys think it's time to go revisit him? Or should I try one of the other tanks?
I honestly have tried a ton of class and got them into the teens, but have stayed away from the tanks (due to my chosen). I think overall I have the most fun as a tank, but maybe the chosen sucking put me off... so, try a new tank class, or pick up my old chosen?
cuellar on
"Fuck newbies. They deserve it for not being high enough level to fight back." - TDL
Yeah, it is really strange how many of these Morales/abilities seem to be completely random. For example, the BG Hold the Line! has a 60 sec cooldown that is shared by no other tank.
Some blorcs are saying that their HtL is completely broken. So its just so random.
wait really? .... what the fuck, as my BG I always thought that hold the line was kinda stupid since it had such a long cooldown, I mean you cant attack while it is going on. That has to be a mistake.
See, the thing was yes you could not attack, but since it has no cooldown you can spam it so long as you have AP. Great for protecting your backlines, or making a push into the enemy zerg.
The BG version having the bugged cd renders it almost useless.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Damn you! I missed out on that awesome deal. Speaking of awesome deals, I also missed out on the Rock Band 2 deal at TRU. My Deal Fu is weak and not fast enough.
Yeah, it is really strange how many of these Morales/abilities seem to be completely random. For example, the BG Hold the Line! has a 60 sec cooldown that is shared by no other tank.
Some blorcs are saying that their HtL is completely broken. So its just so random.
wait really? .... what the fuck, as my BG I always thought that hold the line was kinda stupid since it had such a long cooldown, I mean you cant attack while it is going on. That has to be a mistake.
My chosen uses hold the line all the damn time. I'm talking if I don't have anybody to snare knockback or anything else to do I hold the line between the ranged and my squishies.
Morninglord on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Is it just me or do the BG mastery paths seem to have swapped a few abilities with each other?
Khaine's Warding and Blast of Hatred seem like they need to switch sides. KW requires blocking yet that same path has an ability that requires a greatweapon.
Elite Training is in the anti-caster line but it improves parry, not blocking. You can't parry magic so it seems like None Shall Pass would be a better fit.
Just seems odd that the defensive path for BG have no group utility abilities while the anti-caster path has one and the offensive path has two. Short of the two snares at the top, (which is another point for swapping KW and BoH...why do you need two AE snares in a row?) the defensive path doesn't have any debuffs either. Such a selfish, selfish mastery set.
Dude, being a complete specialist in this game means you get absolutely slaughtered by your counter. I'm talking squished into a tiny piece of black guard pudding. You don't really want to be a complete specialist in this game.
Having parry lets you wail on the squishies and also tank some damage from the meleers trying to stop you, for example. This is valuable, but not overpowered. Having block would make you completely overpowered versus those squishies.
If that block one is lower down the tree, then it lets someone choosing another tree get some benefit from the upping of abilities in that tree if they get up to it.
It's an indication of how you need to play your character, and how they have designed it.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Yeah, it is really strange how many of these Morales/abilities seem to be completely random. For example, the BG Hold the Line! has a 60 sec cooldown that is shared by no other tank.
Some blorcs are saying that their HtL is completely broken. So its just so random.
wait really? .... what the fuck, as my BG I always thought that hold the line was kinda stupid since it had such a long cooldown, I mean you cant attack while it is going on. That has to be a mistake.
My chosen uses hold the line all the damn time. I'm talking if I don't have anybody to snare knockback or anything else to do I hold the line between the ranged and my squishies.
Dodging or disrupting ~45% of what's tossed your way is huge. Plus people behind you benefit from it and it stacks! With that skill going and people sticking by the tanks your side could kill all the BWs in the universe.
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I'm not saying they shouldn't have to use tactics, I'm saying that we should be anti-caster at base if that is to be our desgination and if we do not get anti-caster skills and abilities with out the use of tactics AND spec line, then we should not suffer for being "anti-caster" by losing out on the armor penetration skill.
Chosen can spec to be anti-caster as well and yet they do not lose out on anti-melee skills or core tank skills just because of the possibility to spec anti-caster. If the Black Guard is the "anti-caster" tank, then their skills should reflect this BEFORE mastery points and tactics are put into the equation. Not after. And this is all ignoring the ability for several squishy "casters" to bolster their armor.
Furthermore, I am planning on putting points into Anguish, but what you just essentially argued is that a Black Guard should have to spec Anguish to fulfil a role that they are apparently losing out in other areas for. So in other words, a Black Guard should have to spec Anguish period. Except to be an effective anti-caster, you need to pretty much take the tactics in particular, because three of the abilities are not explicitly anti-magic at all.
Compare this to the Magus for example, where if one wants to Spec Havoc, the important thing to grab is the abilities which help round out the Magus's attack chain with the tactics being nice bonuses for how you want to customize your character.
Not to mention that if the Black Guard is anti-caster, ALL their trees should reflect this. Not just one.
Edit: And I should mention your example on Zealots/Runepriests is pretty bad, as it would be closer to say that to fulfil their intended healer role they should have to use tactics and HAVE to spec alchemy/whatever the Runepriest equivalent tree is called and would have to take all the tactics instead of customizing their character, and would not able to heal at all aside from maybe a single HoT until they did this.
I really don't think you're correct here. All tanks including the BG have the same core tank skills, so chosen aren't getting anything there that BG's aren't (aside from a non-bugged hold the line). I'm not sure what you mean here exactly by anti-melee skills on the chosen, they don't have an armor reduction attack either. Granted they do have a spirit damage attack, but really, if you use a core ability that's tied to a mastery line you don't spec in it's not going to be very effective. Also BG's have a 10% reduction to a target's block/parry rate baseline, which is pretty nice against a tank, as over time it's a roughly 20% increase in damage.
Secondly, I think there's a a good argument to be made that BG's are still much better than an average tank at killing a caster. The have a baseline toughness debuff, which in practice is roughly similar to an armor debuff, but remains effective against casters where an armor debuff would be pointless. They also have a (LONG! w/ hate) disorient baseline, which is hugely helpful against anyone, not to mention a stackable int/wil debuff.
They have a skill which bypasses armor by doing spirit damage, which is explicitly anti-armor. The devs have mentioned that is it's intended use, explicitly to counter heavily armored targets. And the skill you just mentioned takes a massive amount of hate to use, which would then lower the Black Guard's damage output further. Not to say it's a useless skill, but it's not incredible either and does little to help the Black Guard bypass a wall of armor where as the opposing Tank, whether Ironbreaker, Knob, or Swordmaster will.
And if you do not think an anti-armor skill is useful against casters, then I believe you are quite crazy. Not to mention the toughness debuff, once again, takes hate to use and thus slows down damage. Sure, it lasts twenty seconds, but then the question becomes if it makes enough of a difference to bother with if it is not a sturdy target.
The disorient is relatively useful, yes, but it's essentially one skill. The Black Orc gets this for example. And Chosen get this. The stackable intelligence/will debuff is about equivalent to the Sorceress's Word of Pain... or in other words, not worth using, let alone bothering to stack.
They have a very slight orientation, but so does the Chosen, and they still get a designated anti-armor skill.
Edit: And I should mention that I'm not arguing that they aren't oriented towards an anti-caster role, but that they are barely "better" at this role than other Tanks. The Black Guard is marginally better than other Tanks at taking out and harassing squishy classes, and even that is arguable, as the other tanks tend to get some pretty nice advantages that could very well outweigh this slight advantage. Unless the Black Guard specs Anguish, but that hardly justifies the lack of the standard anti-armor skill because of the possibility of speccing Anguish.
I personally think the anti-caster abilities should be reflected in the blackguard as a whole, but I think they've done this to a decent extent already. One thing you have to realize is that the BG is a tank. The toughness debuff is to help your team kill shit while you direct them from the front. The blackguard has more abilities to shut down a healer than a base blorc or chosen. The blorc gets a silence, but that's not great on its own. I'd personally rather have a movement barb.
As to hate issues on the blackguard, I think most of them haven't even figured out taunting generates hate. That is ridiculous and should be used every cooldown. It's also an interrupt, and they should be doing it anyway.
ghost_master: I think the black orc ideally should be a CC monster. They have an ability to kick someone in the nads, but aren't at the point that ironbreakers are. I do have alot of fun, despite my bitching. Especially with DoKs. Unfortunately, my DoK friend quit for a magus.
Thus far I've just been running into the thick of things, and then trying to goad people into attacking me. So far it's worked out quite well, but I have a feeling that if I shifted my strategy somewhat I could be more effective.
The other tank role is a sort of backline defender, you stick close to RDPS and healers and do your utmost to snare, knockdown and knockback any MDPS who try to mess with your squishies. You can actually get away with using a two-hander in this sort of context since you're less likely to be getting focus fired. If you try to pull off a charge into their ranks without a shield, you usually end up dead if you don't have serious healer backup. If you're the only tank though, I think it's best to put on your shield and take up the "go make friends / smash faces" type role, as otherwise you end up waiting for MDPS while their RDPS gets to free-cast nukes onto your team.
For Chaos tanks, I actually think the Chosen does a little better in the backline guard role, as their AoE auras end up contributing more in the backline where you tend to get a cluster of healers and RDPS, and their CC capability is a little stronger if you include masteries. But a Blorc can do it pretty well also, and if you've already got other tanks running into the other team and causing some havok but nobody watching the healers and RDPS, it's still completely worth it for you to take up that role.
Maybe it's because my other toon is a Witch Elf, but I absolutely love messing with MDPS. On the Ironbreaker, I have so many CC options I can really make it hard for them to contribute damage on targets. It's like I can almost taste their frustration, and it is the sweetest of nectars.
If I was tanking a boss and my log said hit me for 230 damage (180 mitigated).
Does that mean I only got hit for 230-180 or is it that if I was a naked squishy I'd have been hit for 410?
Just easily tanked that boss that splits into bits that was really fun.
Especially the start I love tanking demons. So whacky and weird and in your face. HAH TAKE THAT DAEMON BITCH WHAM WHAM WHAM.
It's awesome when you fight average Joe mob, or even some players, and they hit you for 100, and 95 is mitigated.
Gosh, armor is neat.
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I mitigated 180 of 230?
My armor isn't really that good, I have around 380 toughness. That's all toughness!
But I was seeing definite high mit numbers after increasing my toughness, but necessarily my resistance, on my dok. This is on a bw dot, pre that patch that balanced them.
I'm pretty sure the number in the brackets is what is subtracted from the total damage. IE 180-80.
Next time you fight a mob, check the combat log, it might say like, you hit joe mob for 100 (2 mitigated).
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It really shouldn't be too hard to test if you can get to a keep door. IIRC keep doors have 0 toughness and 0 armor. So just swing at a keep door and record the damage. Then swing at a mob. If the damage totals from the mob don't add up to the damage totals from the door, toughness isn't being recorded in the damage numbers being shown. Need to hit a white mob probably, since I think NPCs have some coefficient being applied to damage above and beyond just Armor/Toughness scaling once you get into orange/red con NPCs.
All I can say is he's a right 'ard unkillable bastard. I honestly didn't remember him being so durable. So I'm getting used to Da Plan system again, and actually not doing badly. Especially since they fixed Skull Thumper. Going Brawla, but prolly gonna do a Brawla/Toughest or /Boss later on, depending on whether a few Boss tactics are bugged or not.
And I love the Greenskin vibe. I catch myself talking Orc-y all the time, and i'm not even RP-ing.
as in:
2 Piece: +27 strength
3 Piece:
eg haha you are boned.
Someone said it does Ravage but I tried with or without it and noticed no ravage damage increase.
Although with my old armor with more strength it does a lot more.
The 2% block is neat? But it's not enough considering on top of that dissapearing set bonus the damn thing looks pathetic. It doesn't even have chainmail coverings on the legs and arms so with the other armor bits I have I look like a twit.
I'm willing to change my mind if I can find out if it's truly bugged tooltip and it does actually do something neat.
fixed
and yeah, blorcs are badass.
And now that I hit R15 I'm in pretty much all new armor (that I got mostly from solo questing through R13/14) and my armor just jumped about 260 points. I'm pretty confident I could solo a 21 mob now without really breaking a sweat which would be a six level difference. That seems like more than it should be. (Not that I'm arguing :P )
No that's normal.
Be aware that 19-20 is a big jump in mob ability though.
Khaine's Warding and Blast of Hatred seem like they need to switch sides. KW requires blocking yet that same path has an ability that requires a greatweapon.
Elite Training is in the anti-caster line but it improves parry, not blocking. You can't parry magic so it seems like None Shall Pass would be a better fit.
Just seems odd that the defensive path for BG have no group utility abilities while the anti-caster path has one and the offensive path has two. Short of the two snares at the top, (which is another point for swapping KW and BoH...why do you need two AE snares in a row?) the defensive path doesn't have any debuffs either. Such a selfish, selfish mastery set.
They were just following the Zealot design philosophy regarding talent placement, i.e. "throw darts at an empty mastery tree and pretend like you had a plan."
edit: Okay, nevermind. Just looked at the BG paths, was not aware you were talking about their rank 4 morales, so, exact same damned problem. It really makes no sense.
Some blorcs are saying that their HtL is completely broken. So its just so random.
You guys think it's time to go revisit him? Or should I try one of the other tanks?
I honestly have tried a ton of class and got them into the teens, but have stayed away from the tanks (due to my chosen). I think overall I have the most fun as a tank, but maybe the chosen sucking put me off... so, try a new tank class, or pick up my old chosen?
wait really? .... what the fuck, as my BG I always thought that hold the line was kinda stupid since it had such a long cooldown, I mean you cant attack while it is going on. That has to be a mistake.
The BG version having the bugged cd renders it almost useless.
My chosen uses hold the line all the damn time. I'm talking if I don't have anybody to snare knockback or anything else to do I hold the line between the ranged and my squishies.
Dude, being a complete specialist in this game means you get absolutely slaughtered by your counter. I'm talking squished into a tiny piece of black guard pudding. You don't really want to be a complete specialist in this game.
Having parry lets you wail on the squishies and also tank some damage from the meleers trying to stop you, for example. This is valuable, but not overpowered. Having block would make you completely overpowered versus those squishies.
If that block one is lower down the tree, then it lets someone choosing another tree get some benefit from the upping of abilities in that tree if they get up to it.
It's an indication of how you need to play your character, and how they have designed it.
Dodging or disrupting ~45% of what's tossed your way is huge. Plus people behind you benefit from it and it stacks! With that skill going and people sticking by the tanks your side could kill all the BWs in the universe.