I'm not clear on what Israel's official justification is for this action.
I'd assume it's similar to the justification that was used for the Japanese internment camps here in the states;
"We can't be sure they're on our side, and you people are scared out of your mind, so we're going to exploit the situation and oppress these people for political gain."
The Israeli Supreme Court seems more sane on these issues, so hopefully they can overturn this.
The problem is the Knesset seems to be taking an Jacksonian stand on this - namely, they're telling the Court "yes, you ruled this way, now try to enforce it."
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
Okay, here's the million dollar question - how the fuck do you think this looks to the rest of the world? Seriously - Israel is waging a one-sided war while the rest of the world looks on in horror, and then ejects from its government two Arab political parties on the behest of the ultranationalist wing that provoked the war in the first place.
You know, when I equated the position of Israeli Arabs with the position of Southern Black Americans in the 60s, you told me that I was being hyperbolic and it wasn't that bad. Somehow, after this turn of events, I think you owe me an apology.
Never mind how it looks to the rest of the world, note how it's going to look to all the countries in Israel's neighborhood that oh by the way just happen to be Arab.
Yeah, expect another couple months of random buildings in the Greater Israel Area getting blown to bits.
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
I'll lay money that it's too late to get any new Arab parties on the ballot for the February election.
So, how is it not what we're choosing to extrapolate? Also, did anyone other than the Arab parties vote against this? Or is it basically two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?
Because something happening incidentally and something happening purposefully are two different things. If all of the reserve players on your team are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs and so they're all disqualified, and as a corollary my favorite team gets a 'win', it doesn't mean that I went about making your team ineligible to play. It's an 'incidence', not an intention. Like I said, the people found guilty of drug use shouldn't be disqualified anyway- no ideas should be silenced in a democratic arena- but again it doesn't prove intent.
Unless you can provide proof that the overarching intention of these motions is to effectively stifle Arab representation in Knesset?...
As I see it, a pair of very undemocratic and deplorable motions passed through Knesset. An unfortunate consequence (though certainly not a racially motivated agenda by the Israeli government at large) is that Arab voters (and the Arabs who wished to run on the tickets of either of those two parties) will be shorted this election.
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
Okay, here's the million dollar question - how the fuck do you think this looks to the rest of the world? Seriously - Israel is waging a one-sided war while the rest of the world looks on in horror, and then ejects from its government two Arab political parties on the behest of the ultranationalist wing that provoked the war in the first place.
It's going to look bad. It looks bad to us in Israel. It is bad. I just said that.
You know, when I equated the position of Israeli Arabs with the position of Southern Black Americans in the 60s, you told me that I was being hyperbolic and it wasn't that bad. Somehow, after this turn of events, I think you owe me an apology.
No, I don't think that you do. I stand by my position that the two aren't comparable.
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
I'll lay money that it's too late to get any new Arab parties on the ballot for the February election.
So, how is it not what we're choosing to extrapolate? Also, did anyone other than the Arab parties vote against this? Or is it basically two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?
Because something happening incidentally and something happening purposefully are two different things. If all of the reserve players on your team are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs and so they're all disqualified, and as a corollary my favorite team gets a 'win', it doesn't mean that I went about making your team ineligible to play. It's an 'incidence', not an intention. Like I said, the people found guilty of drug use shouldn't be disqualified anyway- no ideas should be silenced in a democratic arena- but again it doesn't prove intent.
Unless you can provide proof that the overarching intention of these motions is to effectively stifle Arab representation in Knesset?...
As I see it, a pair of very undemocratic and deplorable motions passed through Knesset. An unfortunate consequence (though certainly not a racially motivated agenda by the Israeli government at large) is that Arab voters (and the Arabs who wished to run on the tickets of either of those two parties) will be shorted this election.
No, if you take positive steps to make something happen that will have the effect of disenfranchising an entire segment of the population, KNOWING THAT WILL HAPPEN, that be racially motivated. Lack of outright racism on the surface does not mean it's not there.
Had it been an Arab state with a mixed Jewish-Arab population disenfranchising the only two Jewish political parties, the accusations of anti-semitism (sic) would be flying like mortar shells.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
I'll lay money that it's too late to get any new Arab parties on the ballot for the February election.
So, how is it not what we're choosing to extrapolate? Also, did anyone other than the Arab parties vote against this? Or is it basically two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?
Because something happening incidentally and something happening purposefully are two different things. If all of the reserve players on your team are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs and so they're all disqualified, and as a corollary my favorite team gets a 'win', it doesn't mean that I went about making your team ineligible to play. It's an 'incidence', not an intention. Like I said, the people found guilty of drug use shouldn't be disqualified anyway- no ideas should be silenced in a democratic arena- but again it doesn't prove intent.
Unless you can provide proof that the overarching intention of these motions is to effectively stifle Arab representation in Knesset?...
As I see it, a pair of very undemocratic and deplorable motions passed through Knesset. An unfortunate consequence (though certainly not a racially motivated agenda by the Israeli government at large) is that Arab voters (and the Arabs who wished to run on the tickets of either of those two parties) will be shorted this election.
Are you fucking shitting me?
You think it's just a fucking coincidence that they passed these motions less than a month before an election? Like, "oh, we hadn't thought about it before now, but let's get this taken care of...?" Are they putting something in the fucking water over there or something? And they weren't "found guilty" of anything; there wasn't even a fucking trial. A bunch of other political parties said "oh, sorry, you visited other Arab countries; that means we slap a terrorist label on you, and you're out." This is like instead of drug testing to discover performance-enhancing drugs, asking the other teams in the American League whether or not they think the Yankees are using performance-enhancing drugs, then disqualifying them based on a majority of them saying "yes."
This is fucking bullshit, Organichu. I mean, I realize I use a lot of hyperbole when dealing with Israel, but to pretend this is anything but a naked power grab is fucking abhorrent.
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
I'll lay money that it's too late to get any new Arab parties on the ballot for the February election.
So, how is it not what we're choosing to extrapolate? Also, did anyone other than the Arab parties vote against this? Or is it basically two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?
Because something happening incidentally and something happening purposefully are two different things. If all of the reserve players on your team are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs and so they're all disqualified, and as a corollary my favorite team gets a 'win', it doesn't mean that I went about making your team ineligible to play. It's an 'incidence', not an intention. Like I said, the people found guilty of drug use shouldn't be disqualified anyway- no ideas should be silenced in a democratic arena- but again it doesn't prove intent.
Unless you can provide proof that the overarching intention of these motions is to effectively stifle Arab representation in Knesset?...
As I see it, a pair of very undemocratic and deplorable motions passed through Knesset. An unfortunate consequence (though certainly not a racially motivated agenda by the Israeli government at large) is that Arab voters (and the Arabs who wished to run on the tickets of either of those two parties) will be shorted this election.
No, if you take positive steps to make something happen that will have the effect of disenfranchising an entire segment of the population, KNOWING THAT WILL HAPPEN, that be racially motivated. Lack of outright racism on the surface does not mean it's not there.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Knesset spokesman Giora Pordes said the election committee voted overwhelmingly in favor of the motion, accusing the country's Arab parties of incitement, supporting terrorist groups and refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Arab lawmakers have traveled to countries listed among Israel's staunchest enemies, including Lebanon and Syria. The 37-member committee is composed of representatives from Israel's major political parties. The measure was proposed by two ultranationalist parties but received widespread support.
And yes, this is stifling Arab support in the Knesset, because your government just said that Arab citizens are not allowed to have an Arab voice in your government.
No, if you take positive steps to make something happen that will have the effect of disenfranchising an entire segment of the population, KNOWING THAT WILL HAPPEN, that be racially motivated. Lack of outright racism on the surface does not mean it's not there.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
If the only evidence they produced at trial was "David Duke said they totally did it," then yes, it would.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Are you suggesting that every single member of the Arab parties are criminals?
Incenjucar on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Had it been an Arab state with a mixed Jewish-Arab population disenfranchising the only two Jewish political parties, the accusations of anti-semitism (sic) would be flying like mortar shells.
Funnily enough it's the opposite and yet I'm sure by tonight, when the story hits the U.S. news outlets properly, there will be plenty of accusations of anti-semitism.
Assuming of course that they even comment on the story.
Had it been an Arab state with a mixed Jewish-Arab population disenfranchising the only two Jewish political parties, the accusations of Nazism would be flying like mortar shells.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Yeah, that analogy is so fucking asinine it doesn't even merit a response. This is more along the line of Executive Order 9099, where we declared American citizens to be national security risks based on their race.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
It would be more like all of the Asian Americans getting arrested for jaywalking and detained for 24 hours, and it all just happened to occur on election day.
First of all- this is terribad and there's no defense of it.
Second, there is some dramatization here. What happened is that the two Arab parties in Knesset- Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al- are being disqualified from the upcoming election. This isn't a ban on 'all Arab parties' in general (however, there happen to be only two). They were individual, faceted motions, not a comprehensive ban on Arab parties in general.
Also, I'll note that these are the first parties banned since the 80s- when a party was banned for advocacy of expelling all Arabs for Israel.
This action isn't defensible, but it is what it is- not what some of ya'll are choosing to extrapolate it to.
I'll lay money that it's too late to get any new Arab parties on the ballot for the February election.
So, how is it not what we're choosing to extrapolate? Also, did anyone other than the Arab parties vote against this? Or is it basically two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?
Because something happening incidentally and something happening purposefully are two different things. If all of the reserve players on your team are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs and so they're all disqualified, and as a corollary my favorite team gets a 'win', it doesn't mean that I went about making your team ineligible to play. It's an 'incidence', not an intention. Like I said, the people found guilty of drug use shouldn't be disqualified anyway- no ideas should be silenced in a democratic arena- but again it doesn't prove intent.
Unless you can provide proof that the overarching intention of these motions is to effectively stifle Arab representation in Knesset?...
As I see it, a pair of very undemocratic and deplorable motions passed through Knesset. An unfortunate consequence (though certainly not a racially motivated agenda by the Israeli government at large) is that Arab voters (and the Arabs who wished to run on the tickets of either of those two parties) will be shorted this election.
Are you fucking shitting me?
You think it's just a fucking coincidence that they passed these motions less than a month before an election? Like, "oh, we hadn't thought about it before now, but let's get this taken care of...?" Are they putting something in the fucking water over there or something? And they weren't "found guilty" of anything; there wasn't even a fucking trial. A bunch of other political parties said "oh, sorry, you visited other Arab countries; that means we slap a terrorist label on you, and you're out." This is like instead of drug testing to discover performance-enhancing drugs, asking the other teams in the American League whether or not they think the Yankees are using performance-enhancing drugs, then disqualifying them based on a majority of them saying "yes."
This is fucking bullshit, Organichu. I mean, I realize I use a lot of hyperbole when dealing with Israel, but to pretend this is anything but a naked power grab is fucking abhorrent.
I've already said that the bans of the party in and of themselves are terrible and undemocratic things. When I said 'found guilty', I didn't mean via a worthy survey. I didn't suggest there were comprehensive- or even cursory- investigations into whether the bans were deserved. The bans are bad. End of story- no need to try to approach that from a different angle, I already agree.
On to the point where we disagree, then: I don't disagree that this is a power grab. It absolutely is the intention of Yisrael Beiteinu (and some of the xenophobic members of more mainstream parties) to fill Knesset with war hawks, and so they jumped all over this proposal. However I disagree that it is an intentional power play upon racial lines (at least, amongst most of the government, which is, as I've already said, my primary point of contention).
So, I absolutely believe that this is a concerted effort to manipulate the ideological paradigm in the Knesset. I believe that as a consequence, many Israeli Arabs will need to run around with their heads cut off to decide on new votes in the next few weeks. However, I don't think that 'because they are Arab' is the reason. I think it's entirely self-furthering and is on ideological, and not racial, lines.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Why would you write something like that? What the hell?
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Two Arab political parties have been disqualified from running in Israel's parliamentary elections on February 10 after they were accused of not recognising the country's right to exist.
The panel voted on Monday to back a motion filed by two right-wing parties which also accused the National Democratic Assembly (also known as Balad) and Ra'am-Ta'al of incitement and supporting "terrorist" groups.
Ahmed Tibi and Jamal Zahalka, who lead the two Arab rivals in parliament, joined together in condemning Monday's decision.
"It was a political trial led by a group of fascists and racists who are willing to see the Knesset without Arabs and want to see the country without Arabs," Tibi said.
He said that his Ra'am-Ta'al party intended to petition the supreme court about the decision.
"If the members of the panel had weapons, they would have shot us in the head," Tibi said.
'Fifth column'
At a recent Knesset session called to discuss the Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip, Arab MPs condemned the conflict, which has now killed more than 900 Palestinians and injured thousands of others.
"As a humane person, I oppose targeting civilians wherever they are. Naturally, however, every time an Arab is injured it hurts me more because we are members of the same nation," Tibi told the Knesset.
In response, Avigdor Lieberman, the leader of the Yisrael Beiteinu party which petitioned for the Arab parties to be barred, described the Arab MPs as a "fifth column" clandestinely undermining the nation.
Tibi responded by calling him a "fascist", while Talab al-Sana, another Arab MP, was removed from the meeting after repeatedly interrupting Lieberman's speech.
Zahalka had boycotted the Knesset session saying he was not willing to take part in a "celebration of death".
The two parties are the only exclusively Arab blocs in the Israeli Knesset, however the decision does not effect Arabs in predominantly Jewish parties or the communist party.
Together they hold seven of the 120 parliamentary seats.
About one-fifth of Israel's seven million citizens are Arabs with full citizenship rights, but have suffered due to discrimination and poverty.
Most are descended from the 160,000 Palestinians who remained after the creation of Israel in 1948 and the war on Gaza has heightened tensions between the communities.
So, what they're really being thrown out for is objecting to the war in Gaza.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Are you suggesting that every single member of the Arab parties are criminals?
No, it was just an example. It doesn't matter whether the subjects- Asian Americans, Arabs- deserved any sort of punishment or whether they're guilty or not. I can't restate this enough.
What matters is that being Machiavellian is not necessarily being racist. That is my point.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Why would you write something like that? What the hell?
I'm honestly trying to come up with a reason other than ^
However, I don't think that 'because they are Arab' is the reason. I think it's entirely self-furthering and is on ideological, and not racial, lines.
But don't those ideologies run along racial lines?
For some of the parties (Yisrael Beiteinu, for instance, and Avigdor Lieberman), sure. For the majority of the Israeli government? No, I don't think so.
I've already said that the bans of the party in and of themselves are terrible and undemocratic things. When I said 'found guilty', I didn't mean via a worthy survey. I didn't suggest there were comprehensive- or even cursory- investigations into whether the bans were deserved. The bans are bad. End of story- no need to try to approach that from a different angle, I already agree.
On to the point where we disagree, then: I don't disagree that this is a power grab. It absolutely is the intention of Yisrael Beiteinu (and some of the xenophobic members of more mainstream parties) to fill Knesset with war hawks, and so they jumped all over this proposal. However I disagree that it is an intentional power play upon racial lines (at least, amongst most of the government, which is, as I've already said, my primary point of contention).
So, I absolutely believe that this is a concerted effort to manipulate the ideological paradigm in the Knesset. I believe that as a consequence, many Israeli Arabs will need to run around with their heads cut off to decide on new votes in the next few weeks. However, I don't think that 'because they are Arab' is the reason. I think it's entirely self-furthering and is on ideological, and not racial, lines.
Yeah, and the South didn't fight the Civil War because they're racists, they just fought it because they believed in states' rights. It was an ideological battle.
Y'know, states' rights, like the right to own black people.
But don't those ideologies run along racial lines?
For some of the parties (Yisrael Beiteinu, for instance, and Avigdor Lieberman), sure. For the majority of the Israeli government? No, I don't think so.
There are... what... five Arab MPs who aren't in those parties? Out of 113 MPs? Representing 20% of the population?
Yeah, that totally doesn't run along racial lines.
I've already said that the bans of the party in and of themselves are terrible and undemocratic things. When I said 'found guilty', I didn't mean via a worthy survey. I didn't suggest there were comprehensive- or even cursory- investigations into whether the bans were deserved. The bans are bad. End of story- no need to try to approach that from a different angle, I already agree.
On to the point where we disagree, then: I don't disagree that this is a power grab. It absolutely is the intention of Yisrael Beiteinu (and some of the xenophobic members of more mainstream parties) to fill Knesset with war hawks, and so they jumped all over this proposal. However I disagree that it is an intentional power play upon racial lines (at least, amongst most of the government, which is, as I've already said, my primary point of contention).
So, I absolutely believe that this is a concerted effort to manipulate the ideological paradigm in the Knesset. I believe that as a consequence, many Israeli Arabs will need to run around with their heads cut off to decide on new votes in the next few weeks. However, I don't think that 'because they are Arab' is the reason. I think it's entirely self-furthering and is on ideological, and not racial, lines.
Yeah, and the South didn't fight the Civil War because they're racists, they just fought it because they believed in states' rights. It was an ideological battle.
Y'know, states' rights, like the right to own black people.
I don't know a great deal about the US civil war so perhaps you could make use of a different example that might allow me a deeper understanding?
Hopefully the Israeli Supreme Court will overturn this decision.
It needs to be kept in perspective, though, that it is specific parties being singled out, not a specific race. That doesn't suddenly make it okay, but it does make it a different kind of issue.
Evander on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
However, I don't think that 'because they are Arab' is the reason. I think it's entirely self-furthering and is on ideological, and not racial, lines.
But don't those ideologies run along racial lines?
For some of the parties (Yisrael Beiteinu, for instance, and Avigdor Lieberman), sure. For the majority of the Israeli government? No, I don't think so.
And who, exactly, proposed kicking them out?
Elldren on
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
Are you suggesting that every single member of the Arab parties are criminals?
Seriously
This analogy is so profoundly stupid I can't even find the words to describe it
Hopefully the Israeli Supreme Court will overturn this decision.
It needs to be kept in perspective, though, that it is specific parties being singled out, not a specific race. That doesn't suddenly make it okay, but it does make it a different kind of issue.
This is bullshit, Evander, and as someone who's studied even a little bit of political science, you should know it.
Seriously, are you familiar with the term "pretense?"
Posts
"We can't be sure they're on our side, and you people are scared out of your mind, so we're going to exploit the situation and oppress these people for political gain."
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The problem is the Knesset seems to be taking an Jacksonian stand on this - namely, they're telling the Court "yes, you ruled this way, now try to enforce it."
What're some examples of that?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
When the court ordered them to allow press access during the current war and they said "uh no"
Um, the IDF banning reporters from Gaza, for starters?
Edit: Nice, a triple play.
Yeah, expect another couple months of random buildings in the Greater Israel Area getting blown to bits.
Because something happening incidentally and something happening purposefully are two different things. If all of the reserve players on your team are found to be taking performance enhancing drugs and so they're all disqualified, and as a corollary my favorite team gets a 'win', it doesn't mean that I went about making your team ineligible to play. It's an 'incidence', not an intention. Like I said, the people found guilty of drug use shouldn't be disqualified anyway- no ideas should be silenced in a democratic arena- but again it doesn't prove intent.
Unless you can provide proof that the overarching intention of these motions is to effectively stifle Arab representation in Knesset?...
As I see it, a pair of very undemocratic and deplorable motions passed through Knesset. An unfortunate consequence (though certainly not a racially motivated agenda by the Israeli government at large) is that Arab voters (and the Arabs who wished to run on the tickets of either of those two parties) will be shorted this election.
It's going to look bad. It looks bad to us in Israel. It is bad. I just said that.
No, I don't think that you do. I stand by my position that the two aren't comparable.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You think it's just a fucking coincidence that they passed these motions less than a month before an election? Like, "oh, we hadn't thought about it before now, but let's get this taken care of...?" Are they putting something in the fucking water over there or something? And they weren't "found guilty" of anything; there wasn't even a fucking trial. A bunch of other political parties said "oh, sorry, you visited other Arab countries; that means we slap a terrorist label on you, and you're out." This is like instead of drug testing to discover performance-enhancing drugs, asking the other teams in the American League whether or not they think the Yankees are using performance-enhancing drugs, then disqualifying them based on a majority of them saying "yes."
This is fucking bullshit, Organichu. I mean, I realize I use a lot of hyperbole when dealing with Israel, but to pretend this is anything but a naked power grab is fucking abhorrent.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Let's say that tomorrow every Asian American male over the age of 18 committed a murder. They were all indicted, sat trial, and were found guilty. Let's throw in that we have the death penalty in these instances, and so all of those men are executed. This will severely harm the Asian American community. It will take away many of its workers, fathers, and bread winners.
Are you saying those convictions would then, as a result, be racist? o_O
And yes, this is stifling Arab support in the Knesset, because your government just said that Arab citizens are not allowed to have an Arab voice in your government.
Are you suggesting that every single member of the Arab parties are criminals?
Funnily enough it's the opposite and yet I'm sure by tonight, when the story hits the U.S. news outlets properly, there will be plenty of accusations of anti-semitism.
Assuming of course that they even comment on the story.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Yeah, that analogy is so fucking asinine it doesn't even merit a response. This is more along the line of Executive Order 9099, where we declared American citizens to be national security risks based on their race.
It would be more like all of the Asian Americans getting arrested for jaywalking and detained for 24 hours, and it all just happened to occur on election day.
Though that's still a horrible analogy.
I've already said that the bans of the party in and of themselves are terrible and undemocratic things. When I said 'found guilty', I didn't mean via a worthy survey. I didn't suggest there were comprehensive- or even cursory- investigations into whether the bans were deserved. The bans are bad. End of story- no need to try to approach that from a different angle, I already agree.
On to the point where we disagree, then: I don't disagree that this is a power grab. It absolutely is the intention of Yisrael Beiteinu (and some of the xenophobic members of more mainstream parties) to fill Knesset with war hawks, and so they jumped all over this proposal. However I disagree that it is an intentional power play upon racial lines (at least, amongst most of the government, which is, as I've already said, my primary point of contention).
So, I absolutely believe that this is a concerted effort to manipulate the ideological paradigm in the Knesset. I believe that as a consequence, many Israeli Arabs will need to run around with their heads cut off to decide on new votes in the next few weeks. However, I don't think that 'because they are Arab' is the reason. I think it's entirely self-furthering and is on ideological, and not racial, lines.
Why would you write something like that? What the hell?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
So, what they're really being thrown out for is objecting to the war in Gaza.
It's the same kind of reaction a lot of Americans had when Dubya happened.
No, it was just an example. It doesn't matter whether the subjects- Asian Americans, Arabs- deserved any sort of punishment or whether they're guilty or not. I can't restate this enough.
What matters is that being Machiavellian is not necessarily being racist. That is my point.
I'm honestly trying to come up with a reason other than ^
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
That's just a bonus.
Y'know, states' rights, like the right to own black people.
Yeah, that totally doesn't run along racial lines.
I don't know a great deal about the US civil war so perhaps you could make use of a different example that might allow me a deeper understanding?
It needs to be kept in perspective, though, that it is specific parties being singled out, not a specific race. That doesn't suddenly make it okay, but it does make it a different kind of issue.
Seriously
This analogy is so profoundly stupid I can't even find the words to describe it
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Seriously, are you familiar with the term "pretense?"