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Final Crisis and also how to fix DC Comics

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Posts

  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Okay, so I'm looking at Morrison's exit interview over at Newsarama, and here's an interesting bit:
    In the end, I condensed all the Kirby DC stuff down onto one parallel Earth (51) - the idea of Kamandi in a world with Lightray and Highfather seemed worth revisiting. One day, someone will come along and tell the stories of that world, I’m sure.

    Now, he said this regarding issue 6, so I don't think it needs spoilers, but my speculation based on 7 does.
    So, if I understand everything, here's how it now works:
    1. Before, Apokalips/New Genesis existed outside of normal spacetime, but within a universe, so while there were different versions for each of the 52 Earths, they still weren't normal planets.
    2. Now, they're ALL GONE, except for new versions of all the 4th World people who are on the reconstituted Earth 51 universe.
    3. In the New Earth universe, the New Gods are all gone, and so we're presumably going to see the emergence of a new pantheon as the 5th World. It should have been the superheroes, but whatever...

    mattharvest on
  • RobchamRobcham The Rabbit King of your pantsRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Is Darkseid still alive?

    Robcham on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I think that
    He is currently a black hole at the center of the multiverse.

    Bloods End on
  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Bloods End wrote: »
    I think that
    He is currently a black hole at the center of the multiverse.
    Sounds almost like how they've handled the Transformer deity known as Unicron. He was just one single being but had a body he could access in each TF-related reality. Then he got his soul trapped in a newborn sun and managed to turn it into a black-hole that began to grow bigger and bigger, threatening the universe it was stuck in soon enough.

    Owenashi on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I really loved that FC focused on telling a story, rather than just being an ad for 30 more follow up series.

    Bloods End on
  • kdrudykdrudy Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    FC 7 wasn't bad, but it always bugs me when a comic feels like it is recapping a story to me instead of telling me that story.

    kdrudy on
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  • mojojoeomojojoeo A block off the park, living the dream.Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Could it be that the rocket ship full of the last daily planet, we are all doomed, this is who we were shit; Would be deprssing to batman? The rocketship is pre them righting everything in the future. So here you are rubbing rocks on a wall trying to leave your mark like all your presumablly dead friends did with the rocketship. Including your new cave man pal dead as well.

    Oh no bat-internet, no bat-different stroke re-runs, and no bat-mp3 players to keep you razor sharp bat-mind occupied. Just you and savages and time.
    I would think the omega sanction is working as intended? that's a pretty hopless shit situation.

    mojojoeo on
    Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
  • muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I was following the FC story with no problems until FC7... will definately have to reread some stuff. I do enjoy how the story was told though, with time itself becoming fragmented, andit being depicted as the gutters eating more and more of the story.

    muninn on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    It's going to be amazing if when Morrison comes back to Batman he does nothing with Bruce's situation and just focuses on the new Batman for his entire run.

    Bloods End on
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I must say that the plot with the Flashes was probably the highlight of the entire series for me. The conclusion of their storyline seemed like the biggest payoff to me out of everything that was going on.
    Them leading death right to Darkseid was brilliant.

    Lucascraft on
  • JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Here's another article over at CBR about Final Crisis that's pretty interesting.

    It's another one from the guy who wrote "Grant Morrison: The Early Years".

    For the record, though the "Final Crisis" collection -- the hardcover edition, at least -- will only contain the seven issues of the series itself, the story actually follows this order:

    * "Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle" #1-4
    * "Final Crisis" #1-3
    * "Final Crisis: Superman Beyond" #1-2
    * "Final Crisis: Submit" #1
    * "Final Crisis" #4-7

    JoeUser on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Anyone else get the feeling that the other tie ins were really just projects that the other writers wanted to do, but couldn't justify taking the time off their other books to do so unless it was some sort of big project?

    Bloods End on
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    From the article linked above:
    "Final Crisis" was an attempt to heal a DC Universe that had fallen ill. It was a sigil of renewal, a narrative of hope, and a reminder of the splendor of these fictional gods.

    The only thing "ill" about the DCU was Countdown and honestly, if you pretend that it never happened, then there's nothing wrong with the DCU at all.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say the DCU is as strong now as it has ever been. Gail Simone has taken Wonder Woman in a great new direction, and the WW title has been very strong since its relaunch. Yes, there were a few delays at the start, but the story and art has remained strong.

    Action Comics and Superman are both incredibly strong titles right now under the authorship of Johns and Robinson. The Braniac arc was brilliant, and the New Krypton arc which spanned 3 books was a very coherant crossover.

    Flash is gonna get a fresh kick in the pants in about 2 months and it should be fantastic after that happens.

    Batman has been very good too. Whether you liked RIP or not, the "Batman and Son" arc, the "League of Heroes," and the other arcs that Morrison wrote were all top notch.

    JSA has also been top notch under Johns.

    Oh and then there's a little thing called Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps, which are the best two monthly books that DC publishes right now.


    No, I think the DCU is very strong. It did not need another "Crisis Overhaul."

    Lucascraft on
  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    My thoughts on Final Crisis, to quote Homer Simpson:

    "Brilliant."
    (I have absolutley no idea what's going on.)

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

    CoJoe.png
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    My thoughts on Final Crisis, to quote Homer Simpson:

    "Brilliant."
    (I have absolutley no idea what's going on.)

    hah! This is the perfect way to describe it!

    I enjoyed it, despite not having a fucking clue what was happening.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    In fact, I would go so far as to say the DCU is as strong now as it has ever been. Gail Simone has taken Wonder Woman in a great new direction, and the WW title has been very strong since its relaunch. Yes, there were a few delays at the start, but the story and art has remained strong.

    Morrison would disagree with you; that the entire premise of Wonder Woman, even as Simone has been writing the book, is fundamentally flawed.

    Crimsondude on
  • mojojoeomojojoeo A block off the park, living the dream.Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    My thoughts on Final Crisis, to quote Homer Simpson:

    "Brilliant."
    (I have absolutley no idea what's going on.)

    You win the thread.

    mojojoeo on
    Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    My thoughts on Final Crisis, to quote Homer Simpson:

    "Brilliant."
    (I have absolutley no idea what's going on.)

    You win the thread.

    I think you're biased, sir.

    Langly on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I must say that the plot with the Flashes was probably the highlight of the entire series for me. The conclusion of their storyline seemed like the biggest payoff to me out of everything that was going on.
    Them leading death right to Darkseid was brilliant.
    Agree 100%

    deadonthestreet on
  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Here's another article over at CBR about Final Crisis that's pretty interesting.

    It's another one from the guy who wrote "Grant Morrison: The Early Years".

    For the record, though the "Final Crisis" collection -- the hardcover edition, at least -- will only contain the seven issues of the series itself, the story actually follows this order:

    * "Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle" #1-4
    * "Final Crisis" #1-3
    * "Final Crisis: Superman Beyond" #1-2
    * "Final Crisis: Submit" #1
    * "Final Crisis" #4-7

    See, this is what pisses me off. DC is willing to put out a hardcover that not only doesn't incorporate any of the tie-ins at all, but is actually an incomplete story it and of itself that is virtually incomprehensible. While I am an admitted hardcover whore, this is just asking too much. Maybe someday we'll get an absolute edition that will cover everything mentioned above.

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

    CoJoe.png
  • mojojoeomojojoeo A block off the park, living the dream.Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Langly wrote: »

    I think you're biased, sir.

    Maybe I am... but it was funny.


    Kinda wish the mandrak fight was darkseid and they left that out since it was so pressed for time.

    I dug the flash story too. All three sentances of it.

    Barry's back.
    Run from death through space and time.
    lead death right into darkseid.

    mojojoeo on
    Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
  • JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Here's another article over at CBR about Final Crisis that's pretty interesting.

    It's another one from the guy who wrote "Grant Morrison: The Early Years".

    For the record, though the "Final Crisis" collection -- the hardcover edition, at least -- will only contain the seven issues of the series itself, the story actually follows this order:

    * "Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle" #1-4
    * "Final Crisis" #1-3
    * "Final Crisis: Superman Beyond" #1-2
    * "Final Crisis: Submit" #1
    * "Final Crisis" #4-7

    See, this is what pisses me off. DC is willing to put out a hardcover that not only doesn't incorporate any of the tie-ins at all, but is actually an incomplete story it and of itself that is virtually incomprehensible. While I am an admitted hardcover whore, this is just asking too much. Maybe someday we'll get an absolute edition that will cover everything mentioned above.

    I might look into making my own hardcover, if that's doable. Does anyone know the rate on binding?

    JoeUser on
  • ZeromusZeromus Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I guess I have kind of mixed feelings on FC #7, but one thing I really, really enjoyed throughout the entire series that had a really satisfying payoff in the end was Nix Uotan's story.
    The moment when he wakes up in his human body was brilliant. Brilliant!

    Zeromus on
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  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So FC has gotten me back into comics for a bit. I haven't read all the surrounding issues or any rumours of issues to come but...
    Does that mean that both Wally and Barry are going to be back at the same time, for longer than one issue?

    saint2e on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    From the article linked above:
    "Final Crisis" was an attempt to heal a DC Universe that had fallen ill. It was a sigil of renewal, a narrative of hope, and a reminder of the splendor of these fictional gods.

    The only thing "ill" about the DCU was Countdown and honestly, if you pretend that it never happened, then there's nothing wrong with the DCU at all

    I think Morrison is talking more about the fact that we had a major recent DC event centered around rape, and another couple that were basically heroes getting maimed and dismembered for like 300 pages. (It's kind of hilarious that he has this rep for being some crazy druggie when he would never in a million years pit Superman against the Anal Intruder.)

    That's what he means by "ill." He is very anti-stories that are exploitative or dehumanizing (and if you read the "broken vagina blog", about the behind-the-scenes process that led to Identity Crisis, it's impossible to see that story as anything but). Almost everything Morrison has ever written, even the craziest shit, has been hopeful and positive, and he says all the time that he likes superheroes because it's the one story form where you're expected to tell stories about people choosing to do good.

    Jacobkosh on
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  • BigDesBigDes Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Super crazy insane theory time
    You remember at the end of RIP when
    Young Bruce is walking down the alley talking about putting Zorro in Arkham, and we see a man lurking in the shadows? What if that man is Batman?

    BigDes on
    steam_sig.png
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    From the article linked above:
    "Final Crisis" was an attempt to heal a DC Universe that had fallen ill. It was a sigil of renewal, a narrative of hope, and a reminder of the splendor of these fictional gods.

    The only thing "ill" about the DCU was Countdown and honestly, if you pretend that it never happened, then there's nothing wrong with the DCU at all

    I think Morrison is talking more about the fact that we had a major recent DC event centered around rape, and another couple that were basically heroes getting maimed and dismembered for like 300 pages. (It's kind of hilarious that he has this rep for being some crazy druggie when he would never in a million years pit Superman against the Anal Intruder.)

    That's what he means by "ill." He is very anti-stories that are exploitative or dehumanizing (and if you read the "broken vagina blog", about the behind-the-scenes process that led to Identity Crisis, it's impossible to see that story as anything but). Almost everything Morrison has ever written, even the craziest shit, has been hopeful and positive, and he says all the time that he likes superheroes because it's the one story form where you're expected to tell stories about people choosing to do good.

    It's the body in the fridge meme that he's fighting against. Which is really kind of ironic... while WB is trying to figure out how to make the movies darker, Morrison is trying to bring the light back. Seems like he's fighting an uphill battle though.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • RansRans Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    why was it important for Barry to come back for this again?

    Wally was perfectly capable of leading the Black Racer around on his own, you would think

    i just didn't feel like Barry's role was big enough to necessitate the grand return

    i am against Barry returning so maybe i just can't see it

    Rans on
  • mojojoeomojojoeo A block off the park, living the dream.Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Rans wrote: »
    why was it important for Barry to come back for this again?

    Wally was perfectly capable of leading the Black Racer around on his own, you would think

    i just didn't feel like Barry's role was big enough to necessitate the grand return

    i am against Barry returning so maybe i just can't see it

    I'm with you.

    And moving onwards Wally is now instantly marginallized by the OG flash showing up. Awesome.

    mojojoeo on
    Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
  • FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    Rans wrote: »
    why was it important for Barry to come back for this again?

    Wally was perfectly capable of leading the Black Racer around on his own, you would think

    i just didn't feel like Barry's role was big enough to necessitate the grand return

    i am against Barry returning so maybe i just can't see it

    I with you.

    And moving onwards Wally is now instantly marginallized by the OG flash showing up. Awesome.

    It was probably an editorial demand. It just doesn't fit with everything else.

    Furu on
  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    From the article linked above:
    "Final Crisis" was an attempt to heal a DC Universe that had fallen ill. It was a sigil of renewal, a narrative of hope, and a reminder of the splendor of these fictional gods.

    The only thing "ill" about the DCU was Countdown and honestly, if you pretend that it never happened, then there's nothing wrong with the DCU at all

    I think Morrison is talking more about the fact that we had a major recent DC event centered around rape, and another couple that were basically heroes getting maimed and dismembered for like 300 pages. (It's kind of hilarious that he has this rep for being some crazy druggie when he would never in a million years pit Superman against the Anal Intruder.)

    That's what he means by "ill." He is very anti-stories that are exploitative or dehumanizing (and if you read the "broken vagina blog", about the behind-the-scenes process that led to Identity Crisis, it's impossible to see that story as anything but). Almost everything Morrison has ever written, even the craziest shit, has been hopeful and positive, and he says all the time that he likes superheroes because it's the one story form where you're expected to tell stories about people choosing to do good.

    You have a link to this blog? I'd be interest to read the behind the scenes. Or at lesat a recap

    noir_blood on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Furu wrote: »
    mojojoeo wrote: »
    Rans wrote: »
    why was it important for Barry to come back for this again?

    Wally was perfectly capable of leading the Black Racer around on his own, you would think

    i just didn't feel like Barry's role was big enough to necessitate the grand return

    i am against Barry returning so maybe i just can't see it

    I with you.

    And moving onwards Wally is now instantly marginallized by the OG flash showing up. Awesome.

    It was probably an editorial demand. It just doesn't fit with everything else.

    Dido mentioned how he wanted to bring back Barry for a while... he was gonna do it during Infinite Crisis, but it didn't work out or some crap. It's on the last page of FC 7... in his little note.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Well Barry came back as a plot device, having the knowledge from beyond and knowing how to end Darkseid and such...

    muninn on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited January 2009
    noir_blood wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    That's what he means by "ill." He is very anti-stories that are exploitative or dehumanizing (and if you read the "broken vagina blog", about the behind-the-scenes process that led to Identity Crisis, it's impossible to see that story as anything but). Almost everything Morrison has ever written, even the craziest shit, has been hopeful and positive, and he says all the time that he likes superheroes because it's the one story form where you're expected to tell stories about people choosing to do good.

    You have a link to this blog? I'd be interest to read the behind the scenes. Or at lesat a recap

    http://occasionalsuperheroine.blogspot.com/2006/11/goodbye-to-comics-7-we-need-rape-my.html

    The woman's name is Valerie D'Orazio; she used to be an assistant editor at DC. Her later behavior has revealed her to have...issues...but her story about IC has been independently confirmed by others.

    Jacobkosh on
    rRwz9.gif
  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I found a link to a blog's take on FC#7 and what it all might mean for anyone interested.

    http://www.funnybookbabylon.com/2009/01/28/final-crisis-7-new-heaven-new-earth/

    Owenashi on
  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    edited January 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    From the article linked above:
    "Final Crisis" was an attempt to heal a DC Universe that had fallen ill. It was a sigil of renewal, a narrative of hope, and a reminder of the splendor of these fictional gods.

    The only thing "ill" about the DCU was Countdown and honestly, if you pretend that it never happened, then there's nothing wrong with the DCU at all
    ....

    No, I think the DCU is very strong. It did not need another "Crisis Overhaul."

    No, the DCU isn't strong right now.

    Identity Crisis was terrible and ruined characters.
    Infinite Crisis was bad and ruined characters.
    One Year Later changes messed up a lot of books
    Wonder Woman was between bad and shit quality post-IC until Gail Simone took over.
    Flash was between shit and mediocre quality post-IC.
    JLA (which should be the company's biggest title) has been between shit and mediocre post-IC.
    Teen Titans has been awful since Johns left in 2007.
    Birds of Prey was been between bad and bland since Gail Simone left in 2007
    Countdown was downright shit
    Final Crisis alienated a lot of readers
    Batman RIP was incredibly disappointing to most readers

    There are a lot of good titles DC puts out, yeah, but they don't ever work them. Their best titles are the smaller books, which don't get publicity and end up getting canceled, which should says two things about editorial: 1) they don't know how to market books, and 2) the books they don't have such a heavy influence in (like, say, Manhunter and Blue Beetle) are awesome so editorial needs to back off

    DC's problem right now is that they're trying so hard to beat Marvel in sales (which is understandable, they are a company) instead of just trying to make good stories. All these plans to gain sales are just ruining their books.

    The biggest problem is, of course, Dan DiDio. I don't have Scans Daily-level of hatred at him. I think he's doing the best that he can do. The problem is that he's not a storyteller (the stuff he's written is awful), he's a marketer and he's relatively new to the comic industry. He joined DC in 2002 with no comic background (that I can find). He comes from TV, which is a much different industry and I don't think he knows how to work this one.

    In my opinion, they need to get an industry veteran to head the company.

    Garlic Bread on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    keith are you in charge of DC comics yet

    The Lovely Bastard on
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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    edited January 2009
    Not yet!

    But there's a black president so there's always a chance for me!

    Garlic Bread on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    keith if you get the job can I write the story where wonder woman gets raped

    everyone's clamoring for it!

    The Lovely Bastard on
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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I actually think Teen Titans has been getting better for the last few months.

    Bloods End on
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