So. Should my school tear down the monument to a confederate soldier in it's quad?
should it pry out the names of confederate soldiers that listed in our theater, memorial hall?
I don't have a problem with memorializing Confederate soldiers, much like I don't have a problem with memorializing Iraq soldiers, who are mostly just guys who were unlucky enough to get caught up in a fucked-up war.
I have a problem with flying a flag that is the symbol of a government that existed pretty much entirely for a single reason: because they thought that white people should be able to own black people, and they didn't have a problem getting several hundred thousand people killed over it.
The swastika wouldn't be an offensive symbol today if it weren't still used by bigots. Of course, the converse is also true. Whatcha gonna do?
The swastika isn't an offensive symbol to me and several hundred million hindus like me and if you count the jains and buddhists the number goes into the billions. Just because some nutter with a vague concept of what an aryan actually is used it as a logo for his screwed up regime doesn't turn something that has a history that stretches millennia evil. I see it all the time in temple and have one hanging on the rear view mirror of my car and as far as I know I'n not a bigot.
And for the record yes I'm tired of the skunk eye I get when driving around.
Again, this isn't the equivalent of a swastika; it's the equivalent of a Nazi flag.
Soldiers who were fighting for the Confederacy were most certainly all racists, as were their compatriots in the Union.
But I honestly doubt a large percentage of the people fighting on either side were "true believers" in any sense, and to decry people honoring their ancestors because of it I find a bit insane. I'd bet that most soldiers were either drafted, fought out of some vague sense of defending their homes, or did it for money to help feed their family. Soldiers are rarely ideological.
I think everyone would agree that terrorists are loathsome. Racist? Maybe. You'd have to substantiate that. I would certainly buy that they were religious bigots and misogynists. Treasonous? Sorry, no. You need to look up the definition of the word "treason."
Treason is "the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance." The 9/11 hijackers were not treasonous because they were foreign nationals. They did not "owe allegiance" to the United States. Timothy McVeigh was arguably guilty of treason, by contrast. Jose Padilla would be guilty of conspiracy to commit treason if you could prove that he conspired to detonate a so-called "dirty bomb" for the purpose of overthrowing the government of the United States.
Confederate leaders, on the other hand, fit the definition quite precisely. They attempted, by overt acts, to overthrow the legitimate federal government to which they owed allegiance.
I wasn't referring to Muslim terrorists as traitors to the US. Al-Qaeda advocates the overthrow of secular Arab governments as well.
I have a problem with flying a flag that is the symbol of a government that existed pretty much entirely for a single reason: because they thought that white people should be able to own black people, and they didn't have a problem getting several hundred thousand people killed over it.
It wasn't the symbol of any government. It wasn't even a symbol of the entire Confederate army.
Again, this isn't the equivalent of a swastika; it's the equivalent of a Nazi flag.
No, it's the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag. Does it offend some people? Yes and rightly so. Does everyone who uses it subscribe to an abhorrent system of beliefs? No. Hell, the Iron Cross is now the official symbol of the German army. That doesn't mean that their soldiers dream night and day of invading France.
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I have a problem with flying a flag that is the symbol of a government that existed pretty much entirely for a single reason: because they thought that white people should be able to own black people, and they didn't have a problem getting several hundred thousand people killed over it.
It wasn't the symbol of any government. It wasn't even a symbol of the entire Confederate army.
Again, this isn't the equivalent of a swastika; it's the equivalent of a Nazi flag.
No, it's the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag. Does it offend some people? Yes and rightly so. Does everyone who uses it subscribe to an abhorrent system of beliefs? No. Hell, the Iron Cross is now the official symbol of the German army. That doesn't mean that their soldiers dream night and day of invading France.
No, it's pretty much the equivalent of the Nazi flag. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better equivalent to it, since both were racist goverments that opressed "lesser" races and fought, among other things, to keep their "right" to do it. Both of them also got steamrolled in destructive wars and were wiped off the fact of the Earth. The difference between modern Germans and some Southern people is that the Germans aren't flaunting the Nazi flag as it was some thing to be proud about. Except for the Neo-Nazis. And yeah, it's also the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag as well, which means that any asshole who goes flaunting it in China or Korea should probably get their butts kicked as well.
I fail to see why private entrepreneurs would have been unable to produce cotton, especially since slave labor was so spectacularly unproductive and the Southern aristocracy was generally rather wasteful.
do you mean private entrepreneurs in the south?
They couldn't compete with slave labor.
My point was that a free market would have produced cotton just fine without slave labor. The labor might have been free, but it also wasn't all that productive, and you had to support large idle populations of workers in the off season as well as those who were unable to work, instead of them being able to act as a migrant labor force or turn to trades.
We're not talking about Confederates, here. There are no Confederates. There are people living in present day America, many around me, and they think "I'm gonna fly this! This represents me!"
And then they really have no clear explanation of what it represents and how they're not the bunch of shitheads they clearly are.
Indeed. I mean, if it were just Southern pride, represented by some new flag, then presumably anyone from the South, be they white, black, asian, etc, could participate. But given that it's the Confederate flag being used, the implicit message of it is that non-white southerners aren't meant to be a part of it. It's what the symbol has come to mean, and any attempt to change that will take a long time.
There are a few blacks that wave the Confederate flag.
Then again there are gay Republicans so I don't know what to tell you.
There are straight republicans?
Yes. They're the ones voting the closet cases into office on "Family Values" tickets.
I would love to meet the black people who fly the confederate flag. I am sure they exist somewhere but man.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would love to meet the black people who fly the confederate flag. I am sure they exist somewhere but man.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
You think he was trying to send a secret signal of white superiority or expressing pride in the region that he came from? Being drunk and singing songs that remind a person of home while they're away at college provide some context to his mindset.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
I would love to meet the black people who fly the confederate flag. I am sure they exist somewhere but man.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
You think he was trying to send a secret signal of white superiority or expressing pride in the region that he came from? Being drunk and singing songs that remind a person of home while they're away at college provide some context to his mindset.
Maybe he was a Bugs Bunny fan. Also, tom Leher's South song is awesome.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
It was wildly popular in both the North and the South (Lincoln played it during his campaign and inauguration), and it has become inextricably tied to the idea of "South" in modern usage. See: anytime Foghorn Leghorn was shown on Looney Tunes (those dirty terrorists) and The Dukes of Hazzard.
edit: I think there is a better argument for it having racist undertones (particularly the original version), and really none at all for being "terrorist"
lazegamer on
I would download a car.
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
It was wildly popular in both the North and the South (Lincoln played it during his campaign and inauguration), and it has become inextricably tied to the idea of "South" in modern usage. See: anytime Foghorn Leghorn was shown on Looney Tunes (those dirty terrorists) and The Dukes of Hazzard.
edit: I think there is a better argument for it having racist undertones (particularly the original version), and really none at all for being "terrorist"
Loony Toons always used as a joke punchline for "Any last requests?"
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
Just to clear all this up; I really need a sarcasm smiley.
I would love to meet the black people who fly the confederate flag. I am sure they exist somewhere but man.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
You think he was trying to send a secret signal of white superiority or expressing pride in the region that he came from? Being drunk and singing songs that remind a person of home while they're away at college provide some context to his mindset.
well, for one, he was from southern california.
Two, it the point wasn't so much to make an argument that slavery was analagous to terrorism. I believe my next sentence was "you wouldn't see me singing the al qaeda theme song."
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
I have a problem with flying a flag that is the symbol of a government that existed pretty much entirely for a single reason: because they thought that white people should be able to own black people, and they didn't have a problem getting several hundred thousand people killed over it.
It wasn't the symbol of any government. It wasn't even a symbol of the entire Confederate army.
Again, this isn't the equivalent of a swastika; it's the equivalent of a Nazi flag.
No, it's the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag. Does it offend some people? Yes and rightly so. Does everyone who uses it subscribe to an abhorrent system of beliefs? No. Hell, the Iron Cross is now the official symbol of the German army. That doesn't mean that their soldiers dream night and day of invading France.
No, it's pretty much the equivalent of the Nazi flag. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better equivalent to it, since both were racist goverments that opressed "lesser" races and fought, among other things, to keep their "right" to do it. Both of them also got steamrolled in destructive wars and were wiped off the fact of the Earth. The difference between modern Germans and some Southern people is that the Germans aren't flaunting the Nazi flag as it was some thing to be proud about. Except for the Neo-Nazis. And yeah, it's also the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag as well, which means that any asshole who goes flaunting it in China or Korea should probably get their butts kicked as well.
Is that not the official Flag of the Confederate States? There, in the right corner?
That is the third flag of the Confederacy; that is not the flag we have been discussing. And isn't there a quote a bit further up the tree talking about how an entire flag is not equivalent to the charge on another flag?
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
So on the one hand we have people defending Sherman's total war tactic and saying he was a good dude and on the other we have people calling Confederates terrorists and wanting to punch people out if they sing Dixie
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
"Terrorist fight song?" Really?
Are you saying that's inaccurate?
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
to make this an easier to understand side note ill use your definition and just highlight the problem area.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
slavery wasn't unlawful until after the civil war.
of course that definition of terrorism makes any highschool bully a fucking terrorist so i think it is mostly useless. slavery in the south was never terrorism.
So on the one hand we have people defending Sherman's total war tactic and saying he was a good dude and on the other we have people calling Confederates terrorists and wanting to punch people out if they sing Dixie
just mind boggling
Well, the Confederate government did plan to burn down New York City thus causing a ton of deaths.
So on the one hand we have people defending Sherman's total war tactic and saying he was a good dude and on the other we have people calling Confederates terrorists and wanting to punch people out if they sing Dixie
just mind boggling
And on another hand we have black people in the South asking why the fuck are you flying that thing. Oh wait, that's irrelevant, because northerns are assholes. Yep, northerns are assholes.
So on the one hand we have people defending Sherman's total war tactic and saying he was a good dude and on the other we have people calling Confederates terrorists and wanting to punch people out if they sing Dixie
just mind boggling
Why don't you read up on the lyrics to Dixie and Sherman's actual March to the Sea before you embarrass yourself further.
Yankees are total assholes, though, you have to admit.
And why the hell is anyone trying to call slavery "terrorism"? Isn't slavery bad enough on its own? Do you think you're trying to make it sound worse? And no, it's isn't terrorism. If you have to stretch really hard to make two words mean the same thing then they really never meant the same thing.
Yar on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Also, the way I understand it, Terrorism is generally less organized and formal and not run by the state. Although you can have state-sponsored terrorism. When it's organized and formal and a state-run program, it's generally called oppression. At least, that's how I consider it.
Edit:Godsdamned url
Also, "I wanna go back to Dixie" is awesome, as I said before.
Yankees are total assholes, though, you have to admit.
And why the hell is anyone trying to call slavery "terrorism"? Isn't slavery bad enough on its own? Do you think you're trying to make it sound worse? And no, it's isn't terrorism. If you have to stretch really hard to make two words mean the same thing then they really never meant the same thing.
The institution is slavery, but the means of keeping the slaves in line was intimidation. By definition, though, it was basically terrorism. I mean, that's what you'd call the same intimidation used against free blacks, right?
So on the one hand we have people defending Sherman's total war tactic and saying he was a good dude and on the other we have people calling Confederates terrorists and wanting to punch people out if they sing Dixie
just mind boggling
Why don't you read up on the lyrics to Dixie and Sherman's actual March to the Sea before you embarrass yourself further.
Er, maybe I have? I prefer first hand accounts to wikipedia, though.
Actually, I called the Confederates traitors. The terrorists were the slaveowners and the people who supported their efforts to keep slaves in check.
Dunadan: read the rest of the definitions. One of them says:
Terrorism is the deliberate creation and exploitation of fear through violence or its threat.
Oh hey, that sounds like what they were doing to slaves.
your definition means muggers are terrorists, bullies are terrorists, people who intimidate other people are terrorists, mothers who discipline their children are terrorists. do you see why this is a problem? or do you need me to write a damn essay about it before you admit that you just want to apply a republican buzz word to a specific group that you don't like.
The institution is slavery, but the means of keeping the slaves in line was intimidation. By definition, though, it was basically terrorism. I mean, that's what you'd call the same intimidation used against free blacks, right?
No, and not because I'm trying to defend anyone, but because that isn't what terrorism is generally understood to mean and I think you're just leading us down a useless intellectual jerk-off by trying to link terrorism into this.
Posts
yeah, UNC, public university.
Go to the South sometime.
EDIT: It's actually fairly common.
I have a problem with flying a flag that is the symbol of a government that existed pretty much entirely for a single reason: because they thought that white people should be able to own black people, and they didn't have a problem getting several hundred thousand people killed over it.
But I honestly doubt a large percentage of the people fighting on either side were "true believers" in any sense, and to decry people honoring their ancestors because of it I find a bit insane. I'd bet that most soldiers were either drafted, fought out of some vague sense of defending their homes, or did it for money to help feed their family. Soldiers are rarely ideological.
I wasn't referring to Muslim terrorists as traitors to the US. Al-Qaeda advocates the overthrow of secular Arab governments as well.
No, it's the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag. Does it offend some people? Yes and rightly so. Does everyone who uses it subscribe to an abhorrent system of beliefs? No. Hell, the Iron Cross is now the official symbol of the German army. That doesn't mean that their soldiers dream night and day of invading France.
- John Stuart Mill
No, it's pretty much the equivalent of the Nazi flag. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better equivalent to it, since both were racist goverments that opressed "lesser" races and fought, among other things, to keep their "right" to do it. Both of them also got steamrolled in destructive wars and were wiped off the fact of the Earth. The difference between modern Germans and some Southern people is that the Germans aren't flaunting the Nazi flag as it was some thing to be proud about. Except for the Neo-Nazis. And yeah, it's also the equivalent of the Rising Sun flag as well, which means that any asshole who goes flaunting it in China or Korea should probably get their butts kicked as well.
And what do you mean that it wasn't the symbol of the Goverment?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_states_of_america
Is that not the official Flag of the Confederate States? There, in the right corner?
My point was that a free market would have produced cotton just fine without slave labor. The labor might have been free, but it also wasn't all that productive, and you had to support large idle populations of workers in the off season as well as those who were unable to work, instead of them being able to act as a migrant labor force or turn to trades.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I knew a real conservative guy in undergrad who would sing dixie when he got drunk sometimes; I almost started a fight once by telling him to stop singing a fucking terrorist fight song.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You think he was trying to send a secret signal of white superiority or expressing pride in the region that he came from? Being drunk and singing songs that remind a person of home while they're away at college provide some context to his mindset.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
It was wildly popular in both the North and the South (Lincoln played it during his campaign and inauguration), and it has become inextricably tied to the idea of "South" in modern usage. See: anytime Foghorn Leghorn was shown on Looney Tunes (those dirty terrorists) and The Dukes of Hazzard.
edit: I think there is a better argument for it having racist undertones (particularly the original version), and really none at all for being "terrorist"
Loony Toons always used as a joke punchline for "Any last requests?"
saying that the white people oppressing black slaves were terrorists is a misuse of the term. wite people didn't use terror as a means of oppresion, they used outright force. slaves were afraid but that isn't what kept/made them slaves.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
well, for one, he was from southern california.
Two, it the point wasn't so much to make an argument that slavery was analagous to terrorism. I believe my next sentence was "you wouldn't see me singing the al qaeda theme song."
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Someone needs to consult a dictionary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist
someone needs to.
@optimus: yeah that woulda helped :P
That is the third flag of the Confederacy; that is not the flag we have been discussing. And isn't there a quote a bit further up the tree talking about how an entire flag is not equivalent to the charge on another flag?
- John Stuart Mill
Don't you love America
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Myy dictionary-peen exceeds yours in size and girth: http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?gwp=13&s=terrorism . Also, I don't see how that link helps get your point across.
From that site:
I know what they're saying, but they should be a little more careful with their wording. It certainly made me do a double take.
just mind boggling
to make this an easier to understand side note ill use your definition and just highlight the problem area.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
slavery wasn't unlawful until after the civil war.
of course that definition of terrorism makes any highschool bully a fucking terrorist so i think it is mostly useless. slavery in the south was never terrorism.
Dunadan: read the rest of the definitions. One of them says:
Oh hey, that sounds like what they were doing to slaves.
And on another hand we have black people in the South asking why the fuck are you flying that thing. Oh wait, that's irrelevant, because northerns are assholes. Yep, northerns are assholes.
Why don't you read up on the lyrics to Dixie and Sherman's actual March to the Sea before you embarrass yourself further.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
And why the hell is anyone trying to call slavery "terrorism"? Isn't slavery bad enough on its own? Do you think you're trying to make it sound worse? And no, it's isn't terrorism. If you have to stretch really hard to make two words mean the same thing then they really never meant the same thing.
Yes it's racist. It is also catchy.
Also, the way I understand it, Terrorism is generally less organized and formal and not run by the state. Although you can have state-sponsored terrorism. When it's organized and formal and a state-run program, it's generally called oppression. At least, that's how I consider it.
Edit:Godsdamned url
Also, "I wanna go back to Dixie" is awesome, as I said before.
The institution is slavery, but the means of keeping the slaves in line was intimidation. By definition, though, it was basically terrorism. I mean, that's what you'd call the same intimidation used against free blacks, right?
Er, maybe I have? I prefer first hand accounts to wikipedia, though.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/sherman.htm
Interesting, I read an article just now on that. I've not heard of that before. I did read about Confederates in Canada before, though.
your definition means muggers are terrorists, bullies are terrorists, people who intimidate other people are terrorists, mothers who discipline their children are terrorists. do you see why this is a problem? or do you need me to write a damn essay about it before you admit that you just want to apply a republican buzz word to a specific group that you don't like.
or maybe everyones a terrorist.
I KNEW IT!