Also, that whole baptism Mormon thing for already deceased non-Mormons, yeah, that's fucking wrong. It just is. Stop that. Don't defend it, because you're just wrong.
Really? Here's an analogy:
Imagine there a ton of people who think that the Australia is going to fall into the ocean during the year 2020. So this group of people want to save everyone who lives in the Australia but knowing that not everyone has the means to save themselves they go out and buy plots of land and plane tickets for everyone who lives in Australia. Would you be offended if you had a relative that lived in Australia?
Its the same thing. By doing the work for the deceased, all they are doing is "buying them a ticket". The relatives who have passed on don't have to use it. In fact, they are taking time out of their schedule to "help" people they don't even know. Its seems pretty non-offensive if you ask me.
how about if a bunch of muslims went around converting you to islam after you died
Thats the thing. The baptism doesn't FORCE people to be mormon. Its just an option they get to accept or reject in the next life.
Listen, with all due respect, you're a pea-brain. You have a tiny brain. It is miniscule.
What I am saying is that you are monumentally stupid.
What that is that your church is doing isn't: "Oh hey dead people we're just going to baptise you because you might thank us for it later when that baptism lets you get your own planet full of hot pregnant bitches."
What is is is this: "We are going to decide to do something to you that, as far as we think, might help you in the afterlife we, the mormons, believe in. We're doing it to you when you're dead and have no way to refuse this kind, selfless act, despite the fact that you may not want us to do it at all. Also, we're going to ignore the fact that you did not seek to get baptised by us while you were actually able indicates that you, in fact, did not wish to be baptised by us, the virtuous and (self-)righteous mormons."
What you're doing by baptising dead people is being completely insensitive and uncaring towards what they may or may not have believed in their lives, and it is a terrible and shitty thing to do.
for fuck's sake.
What they are doing is saying a prayer in the privacy of their church for you and performing a little rite or ceremony. Your body is off doing whatever needs to be done with it in accordance with your final wishes and your spirit, if it exists, is presumably doing whatever it does when you die.
This is no different that if when I died my born-again christian friend I used to talk to in high school said "please forgive him for having that screen name lord" and lit a candle.
You stupid fucking cunt. Learn to read the full thread before you call someone stupid. This is exactly the sort of ignorance that gives a believer every fucking right to think they know more than the agnostic/athiest/other, and moreover it drives me insane to see someone talk shit without any grasp of the facts presented.
Go apply to Fox News to be a pundit if you insist on being this loud and uninformed.
NOW LOOK YOU MADE ME DEFEND THE JESUSIES ASSFACE!
No, fuck you. I simply reiterated the point about it being terribly insensitive and self-righteous on several levels, which it is.
I did use too many words, but I wanted to make it clear to the guy that he was being an idiot for having the aforementioned point explained to him several times and still failing to get it.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
Oh, really? So this was in the Book of Mormon and the Bible themselves?
Not even that, but it is completely fucking moot. That is not what I believe.
You think reading is awesome so read that line some more. Here it is again in case you miss it the 50th time.
That is not what I believe.
I did not realize it was a requirement to believe every little thing, past and present, that a church believed to join it. I thought it was more along the lines of the general beliefs that are followed nowadays and agreeing with those.
Such as that God made us. Ta da.
kingkhan on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
just about two months after my mormon gf and I broke up I had two mormon chicks show up at my house asking if I wanted to hear about jesus and whatnot.
All I could think was "man that one is hot I wonder if she's single"
WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME??!!!
the fact that you somehow had a mormon girlfriend shows that the fault lies with the world, not you
i..i think larlar just burned me but I'm not sure..
it hurts...
Grath on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I'm aware that according to your special book, they can reject the effects of the ceremony. I'm simply pointing out that if you think anyone gives a fuck what you think about how the ceremony works, you're wrong. They have every reason to find it offensive, and being obtuse about the multitudinous reasons they might have for being offended and saying "look, you just don't understand," is just adding insult to injury.
It's offensive to others, it implies you have a lack of respect for their religious views, it's condescending. Stop doing it.
Here's the kicker. I can tell you I stop doing it and you won't even know the difference.
That's how little effect it really has.
I hear God loves it when you lie to people.
Especially when you're bearing false witness about your religion.
That's really irrelevant to the point at hand.
It's so terrible and offensive and oh gosh it just affects us so much that we can't even tell if you're doing it or not.
um
you're a fucking shithead, and an inconsiderate tool to boot.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it. You're completely disregarding the feelings of the living (and the implicit wishes of the dead) purely in order to pursue a wholly arbitrary ceremony which you yourself have said isn't really necessary either for you to fulfill your obligations to God or for the person you're performing it for!
If you are really determined to be an utterly callous dick about it, then I suppose there's not much I can do to stop you. But it does make you a gigantic distended asshole no matter what your nice little book and the apologetic surrounding it have to say on the details of the ceremony.
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
Jigrah on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
No it's valid. I'm going to pray for your loved ones to go to hell and get raped by Lucifer for eternity, and I don't want to hear you bitching about it because it's only symbolic or some shit.
What? So what?
So you're praying in the privacy of you own home. What the fucking fuck do I care? What the hell is wrong with you?
Can you seriously not grasp this concept?
And you can't fathom that perhaps people want you to keep your fucking prayers and your religion to yourself. That perhaps they don't want you praying for them at all, and they're fine with their own particular spirituality without you putting your spin on it for them without permission.
Hunter, are you a practicing Catholic? During mass petitions is it inherently wrong and offensive to pray for the victims of a tragedy because some of them might not believe what you or other Catholics do?
Catholics do not pray that the people find god through a spiritual baptism into the Catholic church because they're own brand of spirituality was wrong, and oh yeah sorry about the fire help them out please. It's usually just "hey that event was bad, help them out OK".
First, after 8 years of catholic school I don't remember ever being told petitions and prayers for those that have passed on work only on fellow catholics. Maybe I didn't pay enough attention.
Also, "help them out" in what way? If they're dead what good are prayers if not to help their souls reach heaven?
you're a fucking shithead, and an inconsiderate tool to boot.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it. You're completely disregarding the feelings of the living (and the implicit wishes of the dead) purely in order to pursue a wholly arbitrary ceremony which you yourself have said isn't really necessary either for you to fulfill your obligations to God or for the person you're performing it for!
If you are really determined to be an utterly callous dick about it, then I suppose there's not much I can do to stop you. But it does make you a gigantic distended asshole no matter what your nice little book and the apologetic surrounding it have to say on the details of the ceremony.
People get offended by things all the time, does that mean you stop doing what you think is right?
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
I'm aware that according to your special book, they can reject the effects of the ceremony. I'm simply pointing out that if you think anyone gives a fuck what you think about how the ceremony works, you're wrong. They have every reason to find it offensive, and being obtuse about the multitudinous reasons they might have for being offended and saying "look, you just don't understand," is just adding insult to injury.
It's offensive to others, it implies you have a lack of respect for their religious views, it's condescending. Stop doing it.
Here's the kicker. I can tell you I stop doing it and you won't even know the difference.
That's how little effect it really has.
I hear God loves it when you lie to people.
Especially when you're bearing false witness about your religion.
That's really irrelevant to the point at hand.
It's so terrible and offensive and oh gosh it just affects us so much that we can't even tell if you're doing it or not.
um
you're a fucking shithead, and an inconsiderate tool to boot.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it. You're completely disregarding the feelings of the living (and the implicit wishes of the dead) purely in order to pursue a wholly arbitrary ceremony which you yourself have said isn't really necessary either for you to fulfill your obligations to God or for the person you're performing it for!
If you are really determined to be an utterly callous dick about it, then I suppose there's not much I can do to stop you. But it does make you a gigantic distended asshole no matter what your nice little book and the apologetic surrounding it have to say on the details of the ceremony.
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
Also, that whole baptism Mormon thing for already deceased non-Mormons, yeah, that's fucking wrong. It just is. Stop that. Don't defend it, because you're just wrong.
Really? Here's an analogy:
Imagine there a ton of people who think that the Australia is going to fall into the ocean during the year 2020. So this group of people want to save everyone who lives in the Australia but knowing that not everyone has the means to save themselves they go out and buy plots of land and plane tickets for everyone who lives in Australia. Would you be offended if you had a relative that lived in Australia?
Its the same thing. By doing the work for the deceased, all they are doing is "buying them a ticket". The relatives who have passed on don't have to use it. In fact, they are taking time out of their schedule to "help" people they don't even know. Its seems pretty non-offensive if you ask me.
how about if a bunch of muslims went around converting you to islam after you died
Thats the thing. The baptism doesn't FORCE people to be mormon. Its just an option they get to accept or reject in the next life.
Listen, with all due respect, you're a pea-brain. You have a tiny brain. It is miniscule.
What I am saying is that you are monumentally stupid.
What that is that your church is doing isn't: "Oh hey dead people we're just going to baptise you because you might thank us for it later when that baptism lets you get your own planet full of hot pregnant bitches."
What is is is this: "We are going to decide to do something to you that, as far as we think, might help you in the afterlife we, the mormons, believe in. We're doing it to you when you're dead and have no way to refuse this kind, selfless act, despite the fact that you may not want us to do it at all. Also, we're going to ignore the fact that you did not seek to get baptised by us while you were actually able indicates that you, in fact, did not wish to be baptised by us, the virtuous and (self-)righteous mormons."
What you're doing by baptising dead people is being completely insensitive and uncaring towards what they may or may not have believed in their lives, and it is a terrible and shitty thing to do.
for fuck's sake.
What they are doing is saying a prayer in the privacy of their church for you and performing a little rite or ceremony. Your body is off doing whatever needs to be done with it in accordance with your final wishes and your spirit, if it exists, is presumably doing whatever it does when you die.
This is no different that if when I died my born-again christian friend I used to talk to in high school said "please forgive him for having that screen name lord" and lit a candle.
You stupid fucking cunt. Learn to read the full thread before you call someone stupid. This is exactly the sort of ignorance that gives a believer every fucking right to think they know more than the agnostic/athiest/other, and moreover it drives me insane to see someone talk shit without any grasp of the facts presented.
Go apply to Fox News to be a pundit if you insist on being this loud and uninformed.
NOW LOOK YOU MADE ME DEFEND THE JESUSIES ASSFACE!
No, fuck you. I simply reiterated the point about it being terribly insensitive and self-righteous on several levels, which it is.
I did use too many words, but I wanted to make it clear to the guy that he was being an idiot for having the aforementioned point explained to him several times and still failing to get it.
well one of two things is happening here; either you still think that something is being done to your body in front of your family as a religious right, or you really think that someone praying for you in their church is truly an insensitive and uncaring act, and neither of those is correct.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
theoretically, the dead are sitting around in hell's antechamber going "i wish someone would baptize me so i don't go to hell"
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
Wow. What if I said right now that whatever you believe, some dude that believed it said that monkeys were really turds from a space demon?
And that when you said it doesn't matter that he said it, I dont' believe it, I said it doesn't matter it's an indisputable fact that is what you believe.
I get the fact that you are joining just to make friends. It doesn't change the fact that you are joining a cult.
I've been definitely thinking about going to a Christian church to start meeting some people and networking out. Seems a lot of successful people get a lot of help from that church support (networks etc).
Won't do it though because I would find it immoral to use them like that, but still, lot of power and gains in just pretending.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
I stayed up late last night to watch Predator on one of the movie channels. It was the first time I have ever seen the original. I am very happy I stayed up for it.
also, i kept hearing bits of that Predator summary rap that I think WaM posted a little while back. that was rad too
Also, that whole baptism Mormon thing for already deceased non-Mormons, yeah, that's fucking wrong. It just is. Stop that. Don't defend it, because you're just wrong.
Really? Here's an analogy:
Imagine there a ton of people who think that the Australia is going to fall into the ocean during the year 2020. So this group of people want to save everyone who lives in the Australia but knowing that not everyone has the means to save themselves they go out and buy plots of land and plane tickets for everyone who lives in Australia. Would you be offended if you had a relative that lived in Australia?
Its the same thing. By doing the work for the deceased, all they are doing is "buying them a ticket". The relatives who have passed on don't have to use it. In fact, they are taking time out of their schedule to "help" people they don't even know. Its seems pretty non-offensive if you ask me.
how about if a bunch of muslims went around converting you to islam after you died
Thats the thing. The baptism doesn't FORCE people to be mormon. Its just an option they get to accept or reject in the next life.
Listen, with all due respect, you're a pea-brain. You have a tiny brain. It is miniscule.
What I am saying is that you are monumentally stupid.
What that is that your church is doing isn't: "Oh hey dead people we're just going to baptise you because you might thank us for it later when that baptism lets you get your own planet full of hot pregnant bitches."
What is is is this: "We are going to decide to do something to you that, as far as we think, might help you in the afterlife we, the mormons, believe in. We're doing it to you when you're dead and have no way to refuse this kind, selfless act, despite the fact that you may not want us to do it at all. Also, we're going to ignore the fact that you did not seek to get baptised by us while you were actually able indicates that you, in fact, did not wish to be baptised by us, the virtuous and (self-)righteous mormons."
What you're doing by baptising dead people is being completely insensitive and uncaring towards what they may or may not have believed in their lives, and it is a terrible and shitty thing to do.
Anyone who believes in something is going to conduct their activities in a way that corresponds with their belief. They have faith that they are right, and that others need to be saved and by golly they are going to save them.
A doctor believes in his alchemy, and so he gives you pills because he believes they are the cure you need. Do you call him a self righteous prick because he is trying to help you? No, because you believe in that alchemy as well.
Now we come across something you don't beleive in and because they are passionate in saving you and truly believe their mission, their self righteous pricks.
Their actions do not hinder or hurt you in anyway.
The key difference here is that I came to the doctor for help and have actively acknowledged my faith in his skill and methods. Not so with post-mortem baptism.
Some people don't want it. The practice isn't harmful in any way in my eyes. A spiritual person might think it is in some way. They might see it as devil-magic. I see it as a harmless practice. However, I also see it as ridiculous, and personally do not want anyone to baptise me after death. Why? Because I think it's ridiculous, and I am perfectly happy with my personal opinion on the nature of existence. I have made a choice, and people should respect that choice.
What if I end up in an afterlife that would require me to be baptised to move on to the most sweet and kicking rad level? Being baptised after death might be nice but even if I weren't, I'd have made my choice and it would be my responsibility.
People are opposed to being baptised after death because they see it as an invasive spiritual thing. In a way, it certainly is. It isn't in other, more different ways, sure, that's true as well. Some people, however, have already made their choice and just don't want to be bothered about it anymore, which is what the post-mortem baptism amounts to in their eyes.
And going ahead and doing it when that is the case is kind of a dick move. People see it as being bothered by a knock on the door even when they're dead.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
There probably are some smart people in the Mormon church that have read their bible, and have interpreted it in ways that allow them to have the beliefs they do in it.
Just look at all the different Christian beliefs.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
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No, fuck you. I simply reiterated the point about it being terribly insensitive and self-righteous on several levels, which it is.
I did use too many words, but I wanted to make it clear to the guy that he was being an idiot for having the aforementioned point explained to him several times and still failing to get it.
I dressed up as Gregor Mendel one year for a science fair. My project was on genetics.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
Oh, really? So this was in the Book of Mormon and the Bible themselves?
Not even that, but it is completely fucking moot. That is not what I believe.
You think reading is awesome so read that line some more. Here it is again in case you miss it the 50th time.
That is not what I believe.
I did not realize it was a requirement to believe every little thing, past and present, that a church believed to join it. I thought it was more along the lines of the general beliefs that are followed nowadays and agreeing with those.
Such as that God made us. Ta da.
kant was a douche
also he smelled like poop
it hurts...
h
my head
um
you're a fucking shithead, and an inconsiderate tool to boot.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it. You're completely disregarding the feelings of the living (and the implicit wishes of the dead) purely in order to pursue a wholly arbitrary ceremony which you yourself have said isn't really necessary either for you to fulfill your obligations to God or for the person you're performing it for!
If you are really determined to be an utterly callous dick about it, then I suppose there's not much I can do to stop you. But it does make you a gigantic distended asshole no matter what your nice little book and the apologetic surrounding it have to say on the details of the ceremony.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
First, after 8 years of catholic school I don't remember ever being told petitions and prayers for those that have passed on work only on fellow catholics. Maybe I didn't pay enough attention.
Also, "help them out" in what way? If they're dead what good are prayers if not to help their souls reach heaven?
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No, it's Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
People get offended by things all the time, does that mean you stop doing what you think is right?
Hell no, you do it even more.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
blog facebook steam twitter
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
Wow. What if I said right now that whatever you believe, some dude that believed it said that monkeys were really turds from a space demon?
And that when you said it doesn't matter that he said it, I dont' believe it, I said it doesn't matter it's an indisputable fact that is what you believe.
I've been definitely thinking about going to a Christian church to start meeting some people and networking out. Seems a lot of successful people get a lot of help from that church support (networks etc).
Won't do it though because I would find it immoral to use them like that, but still, lot of power and gains in just pretending.
And then they are baptized mormon and go to double hell.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
also, i kept hearing bits of that Predator summary rap that I think WaM posted a little while back. that was rad too
It's awesome.
maybe the catholics should start doing counter-baptisms
baptize some dead mormons and see what happens
if they do enough then the mormons will have to keep baptizing their own dead and leave everyone else alone
As long as it makes you happy then godspeed, dude.
I wish I didn't have to, but I feel I do, say that this doesn't apply to extremes such as "If you like killing babies then godspeed, dude."
Don't warp shit like that.
gonna have to agree here
The key difference here is that I came to the doctor for help and have actively acknowledged my faith in his skill and methods. Not so with post-mortem baptism.
Some people don't want it. The practice isn't harmful in any way in my eyes. A spiritual person might think it is in some way. They might see it as devil-magic. I see it as a harmless practice. However, I also see it as ridiculous, and personally do not want anyone to baptise me after death. Why? Because I think it's ridiculous, and I am perfectly happy with my personal opinion on the nature of existence. I have made a choice, and people should respect that choice.
What if I end up in an afterlife that would require me to be baptised to move on to the most sweet and kicking rad level? Being baptised after death might be nice but even if I weren't, I'd have made my choice and it would be my responsibility.
People are opposed to being baptised after death because they see it as an invasive spiritual thing. In a way, it certainly is. It isn't in other, more different ways, sure, that's true as well. Some people, however, have already made their choice and just don't want to be bothered about it anymore, which is what the post-mortem baptism amounts to in their eyes.
And going ahead and doing it when that is the case is kind of a dick move. People see it as being bothered by a knock on the door even when they're dead.
he already knows the answer to that question
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
There probably are some smart people in the Mormon church that have read their bible, and have interpreted it in ways that allow them to have the beliefs they do in it.
Just look at all the different Christian beliefs.
I think it's more or less a cult too but it's obvious this postmortem baptism thing has been blown way out of proportion.