No it's valid. I'm going to pray for your loved ones to go to hell and get raped by Lucifer for eternity, and I don't want to hear you bitching about it because it's only symbolic or some shit.
What? So what?
So you're praying in the privacy of you own home. What the fucking fuck do I care? What the hell is wrong with you?
Can you seriously not grasp this concept?
And you can't fathom that perhaps people want you to keep your fucking prayers and your religion to yourself. That perhaps they don't want you praying for them at all, and they're fine with their own particular spirituality without you putting your spin on it for them without permission.
Hunter, are you a practicing Catholic? During mass petitions is it inherently wrong and offensive to pray for the victims of a tragedy because some of them might not believe what you or other Catholics do?
Catholics do not pray that the people find god through a spiritual baptism into the Catholic church because they're own brand of spirituality was wrong, and oh yeah sorry about the fire help them out please. It's usually just "hey that event was bad, help them out OK".
First, after 8 years of catholic school I don't remember ever being told petitions and prayers for those that have passed on work only on fellow catholics. Maybe I didn't pay enough attention.
Also, "help them out" in what way? If they're dead what good are prayers if not to help their souls reach heaven?
First, that's not what I said.
Prayer is not baptism and baptism is not prayer
A Catholic praying for a disaster victim to have an easier time =/= A Mormon praying that I really convert to their one true religion because my heathen ass is on the wrong path.
If you don't see it that way, so be it. That's my opinion of what's going on no matter how they want to spin or sugar coat it. Religion is a personal experience you share with those who are of similar thought. If people don't agree with you, forcibly trying to change them or subversively trying to change them is not cool. Even if your intentions are noble or you think you're really getting them a better seat in heaven.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
They aren't actually doing anything to the dead though. I mean if religion shouldn't apply to the dead and afterlife what the fuck should it apply to?
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
Wow. What if I said right now that whatever you believe, some dude that believed it said that monkeys were really turds from a space demon?
And that when you said it doesn't matter that he said it, I dont' believe it, I said it doesn't matter it's an indisputable fact that is what you believe.
Because I'm not dim enough to believe something without studying it first.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
Oh, really? So this was in the Book of Mormon and the Bible themselves?
Not even that, but it is completely fucking moot. That is not what I believe.
You think reading is awesome so read that line some more. Here it is again in case you miss it the 50th time.
That is not what I believe.
I did not realize it was a requirement to believe every little thing, past and present, that a church believed to join it. I thought it was more along the lines of the general beliefs that are followed nowadays and agreeing with those.
Such as that God made us. Ta da.
Isn't that the whole point of joiing a church? Appropriating some else's existing beliefs rather than craft and chose the ones you need?
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HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
Same here.
Physical or spiritual, it's still trying to establish one religion as better or the true path over another. Keep your spiritual opinions to yourself is my opinion. Also, I believe they're hypocrites, because they would probably be pissed if say Hindus or Muslims did it to their dead, who were heathens and needed saving. Of course they won't admit it.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
But really is it any different to someone that doesn't share those beliefs as just talking about a dead person?
I mean I'm not religious, so if someone prays quietly that I be saved by their God then that to me is no different than if they were talking to themselves about me, you know?
Obviously if your version of prayer is a demonstration outside my family's home or church then that's a problem, but a quiet conversation between you and your god doesn't affect me at all. If you don't believe in the real God then nothing will happen, if you do and he listens I'll be ushered into heaven and send you a heavenly high-five.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
Wow. What if I said right now that whatever you believe, some dude that believed it said that monkeys were really turds from a space demon?
And that when you said it doesn't matter that he said it, I dont' believe it, I said it doesn't matter it's an indisputable fact that is what you believe.
Then he shows you a picture that said monkeys are not turds, I mean, seriously now.
Fundamental Beliefs of Mormonism with references. You know places you can look to see where these beliefs come from.
1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"
3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.
Again, a few Mormons wrote saying they do not believe this and I am misrepresenting the church's position. Actually the quotes from the early leaders are stranger than I could create from my imagination. Here are a few references:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51 1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children..."
4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.
5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.
Reference: Ezra Taft Benson '14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophets' pgs 1-16, 1980:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."
6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.
7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.
8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.
9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.
10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?
11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.
13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.
14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.
A bonus!
This is from a letter received from somebody trying to leave the LDS church:
"As a Mormon for my entire life, the very first time I felt persecuted for my beliefs was when I tried to leave the LDS faith. Never on my mission did I ever feel opposed (I went to a foreign country with virtually no anti-Mormons). Never did I feel like someone didn't allow me the "same priviledge of worshipping God according to the dictates of my own conscience" until MY OWN FAMILY found out I no longer believed in the fairy tales of Mormonism. Then all of a sudden my active LDS mother-in-law thought it would be "better" for my wife to leave me. All this despite the fact that my wife loves me, I love my wife and child, and I hadn't even committed anything the Mormon church would consider a sin (except perhaps apostasy, but apostatizing from a lie is no sin in my book). Anyway, if "only the [truth] would have anything bad said about it" the reaction I received by leaving the LDS church meant I was heading into the truth."
This is due to your understanding of the definition God.
Our God created us, yes. He sent us here to be perfect like Him. In that, we will be Gods.
That doesn't mean we get our own moon. Christ.
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
Reading is awesome.
You could apply that to practically anyone that has a belief, it's a stupid point.
It works here because I've been told I was wrong by people who don't realize that I am not wrong because they don't know what they are talking about.
In other words I am applying it just as you said it could be applied.
Wow. What if I said right now that whatever you believe, some dude that believed it said that monkeys were really turds from a space demon?
And that when you said it doesn't matter that he said it, I dont' believe it, I said it doesn't matter it's an indisputable fact that is what you believe.
Because I'm not dim enough to believe something without studying it first.
You are so fucking stupid, man.
I have and am studying it. If you cannot wrap it around your thick skull that it is not what I believe, and that doesn't change even if everyone else in my church believed it, then that's your deal. I'm done arguing it with you.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
Same here.
Physical or spiritual, it's still trying to establish one religion as better or the true path over another. Keep your spiritual opinions to yourself is my opinion. Also, I believe they're hypocrites, because they would probably be pissed if say Hindus or Muslims did it to their dead, who were heathens and needed saving. Of course they won't admit it.
why are you making it into a religious pissing contest?
They believe what they believe and obviously they knew you and cared enough about you to pray for you after you died. If the rites include saying "please save Hunter because he believed in crazy purple God instead of Black Jesus like an idiot" then you'd have something, but so far you're just projecting intent to these other people.
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
If someone lives their whole life as a Jew, is very devout, and dies, still a Jew, with a will that asks that Jewish rites be performed at their funeral, I think it's pretty fucking obvious they didn't have any interest in becoming a Mormon.
If someone were to do some ritual using the names of my deceased ancestors in some other religion, it wouldn't bother me at all, because I don't believe in it. It's harmless. It really puzzles me how people who believe religion is bullshit get so offended by the mere belief in religion (not acts done in religion's name, two different things) or how religious people get offended by the assertions of other religions. There are a lot of religions--get used to being in the minority, whoever you are.
You know who has been super pissed on an official level on baptism for the dead, though? Jews. LDS leaders have met with Jews and there have been some uneasy compromises on the subject. As Calvin says: a good compromise leaves everybody mad.
Jews are probably madder though >_<
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
As a recovering Catholic I can't believe people are getting totally up in arms about a closed door ceremony that's done completely without someone's knowledge. The only way it could possibly effect them is if the Mormons are right and someone they're praying for avoids hell. If they're wrong nobody would care including god.
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
If someone lives their whole life as a Jew, is very devout, and dies, still a Jew, with a will that asks that Jewish rites be performed at their funeral, I think it's pretty fucking obvious they didn't have any interest in becoming a Mormon.
Way to sidestep the issue again.
well you're assuming that a mormon baptizing a dead jew is going to have any effect whatsoever
if a mormon called me right now and said i'd been baptized and was now a mormon, i would laugh at him
well one of two things is happening here; either you still think that something is being done to your body in front of your family as a religious right, or you really think that someone praying for you in their church is truly an insensitive and uncaring act, and neither of those is correct.
I do not believe that they would actually do something to my corpse should they decide to baptise me after death.
It's still pretty insensitive, though, because they're still pretty much going "let's baptise this guy because we think he was wrong, despite the fact that he may very well have chosen not to get baptised during his life because he didn't agree with mormonism or because the act might actually have been spiritually reprehensible to him."
It's not necessarily uncaring, that depends on who's doing it and what their personal motives are, but the fact remains that it is pretty insensitive because relatives of deceased people have actually asked the LDS to stop baptising their deceased family members without even asking.
And if what GRMike is saying is correct, the act is literally baptising someone against their will so they can go to what the mormons believe is heaven.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
But really is it any different to someone that doesn't share those beliefs as just talking about a dead person?
I mean I'm not religious, so if someone prays quietly that I be saved by their God then that to me is no different than if they were talking to themselves about me, you know?
Obviously if your version of prayer is a demonstration outside my family's home or church then that's a problem, but a quiet conversation between you and your god doesn't affect me at all. If you don't believe in the real God then nothing will happen, if you do and he listens I'll be ushered into heaven and send you a heavenly high-five.
they're free to do it, and i'm free to find it creepy and weird
it's a wonderful world
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GRMikeThe Last Best Hope for HumanityThe God Pod Registered Userregular
well one of two things is happening here; either you still think that something is being done to your body in front of your family as a religious right, or you really think that someone praying for you in their church is truly an insensitive and uncaring act, and neither of those is correct.
I do not believe that they would actually do something to my corpse should they decide to baptise me after death.
It's still pretty insensitive, though, because they're still pretty much going "let's baptise this guy because we think he was wrong, despite the fact that he may very well have chosen not to get baptised during his life because he didn't agree with mormonism or because the act might actually have been spiritually reprehensible to him."
It's not necessarily uncaring, that depends on who's doing it and what their personal motives are, but the fact remains that it is pretty insensitive because relatives of deceased people have actually asked the LDS to stop baptising their deceased family members without even asking.
And if what GRMike is saying is correct, the act is literally baptising someone against their will so they can go to what the mormons believe is heaven.
Not so much as "go". Its more of a being counted thing. They can potentially be asked into "heaven".
But we have real life Mormons telling us that I'm wrong, so who cares? Right?
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
If someone lives their whole life as a Jew, is very devout, and dies, still a Jew, with a will that asks that Jewish rites be performed at their funeral, I think it's pretty fucking obvious they didn't have any interest in becoming a Mormon.
Way to sidestep the issue again.
well you're assuming that a mormon baptizing a dead jew is going to have any effect whatsoever
if a mormon called me right now and said i'd been baptized and was now a mormon, i would laugh at him
Except in your analogy, he would call and ask if you wanted to be baptized.
You'd tell him no and that's that.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
Same here.
Physical or spiritual, it's still trying to establish one religion as better or the true path over another. Keep your spiritual opinions to yourself is my opinion. Also, I believe they're hypocrites, because they would probably be pissed if say Hindus or Muslims did it to their dead, who were heathens and needed saving. Of course they won't admit it.
I can honestly say that I could care less what other people are saying/performing within their own religion as long as they aren't physically hurting another individual.
I think it comes down to intent and that seems to be the crux of the debate right now. I know that the reason I perform baptisms for the dead is because I want everyone to have the chance to accept what I believe to be true. Its a way to show love and service for my fellow man.
You look and say I am doing it as a GIANT "EFF YOU!" to the rest of the religous community and pointing and laughing about wrong they are. If I have to stop doing something because you wrongly judge my intent, then so should everyone else in the world. And if that's the case then we have some serious issues. I could start getting offended because you are breathing in a mean way in my direction. You better stop breathing then, huh?
As a recovering Catholic I can't believe people are getting totally up in arms about a closed door ceremony that's done completely without someone's knowledge. The only way it could possibly effect them is if the Mormons are right and someone they're praying for avoids hell. If they're wrong nobody would care including god.
This.
Also, it's just someone who is alive getting baptized. So instead of a prayer, they go and do baptisms. I don't see why the prayer for the dead is okay, but the getting baptized for someone isn't? If religion is bullshit, aren't they both equally bullshit? I don't get it.
Also, the belief is that the dead person still has a choice whether to accept it or not. I know that probably means nothing, but some people seem to be think that it's a baptism that the dead has no choice over. Mr. Dead Jew who wants to be a Jew will be told someone got baptized for him and if he doesn't want anything to do with it, he doesn't have to.
And if there's no life after death, none of this really matters, does it?
If someone were to do some ritual using the names of my deceased ancestors in some other religion, it wouldn't bother me at all, because I don't believe in it. It's harmless. It really puzzles me how people who believe religion is bullshit get so offended by the mere belief in religion (not acts done in religion's name, two different things) or how religious people get offended by the assertions of other religions. There are a lot of religions--get used to being in the minority, whoever you are.
You know who has been super pissed on an official level on baptism for the dead, though? Jews. LDS leaders have met with Jews and there have been some uneasy compromises on the subject. As Calvin says: a good compromise leaves everybody mad.
Jews are probably madder though >_<
Way to completely miss the point.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
If someone lives their whole life as a Jew, is very devout, and dies, still a Jew, with a will that asks that Jewish rites be performed at their funeral, I think it's pretty fucking obvious they didn't have any interest in becoming a Mormon.
Way to sidestep the issue again.
well you're assuming that a mormon baptizing a dead jew is going to have any effect whatsoever
if a mormon called me right now and said i'd been baptized and was now a mormon, i would laugh at him
Except in your analogy, he would call and ask if you wanted to be baptized.
You'd tell him no and that's that.
but assuming he didn't ask, it still wouldn't change anything as far as i was concerned
on the other hand, their record keeping practices are not good
as in, it is my understanding that they make a note somewhere that so-and-so was baptized mormon and then if anyone asks about that person in a genealogical survey, that person will be listed as mormon
apparently the mormons are really good record keepers so a lot of people rely on them for that
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
But really is it any different to someone that doesn't share those beliefs as just talking about a dead person?
I mean I'm not religious, so if someone prays quietly that I be saved by their God then that to me is no different than if they were talking to themselves about me, you know?
Obviously if your version of prayer is a demonstration outside my family's home or church then that's a problem, but a quiet conversation between you and your god doesn't affect me at all. If you don't believe in the real God then nothing will happen, if you do and he listens I'll be ushered into heaven and send you a heavenly high-five.
they're free to do it, and i'm free to find it creepy and weird
it's a wonderful world
Calling it weird is fine. Viewing it like it's as reprehensible as human sacrifice is just plain silly though.
well one of two things is happening here; either you still think that something is being done to your body in front of your family as a religious right, or you really think that someone praying for you in their church is truly an insensitive and uncaring act, and neither of those is correct.
I do not believe that they would actually do something to my corpse should they decide to baptise me after death.
It's still pretty insensitive, though, because they're still pretty much going "let's baptise this guy because we think he was wrong, despite the fact that he may very well have chosen not to get baptised during his life because he didn't agree with mormonism or because the act might actually have been spiritually reprehensible to him."
It's not necessarily uncaring, that depends on who's doing it and what their personal motives are, but the fact remains that it is pretty insensitive because relatives of deceased people have actually asked the LDS to stop baptising their deceased family members without even asking.
And if what GRMike is saying is correct, the act is literally baptising someone against their will so they can go to what the mormons believe is heaven.
Well I'll admit that if I'm wrong and that somehow it has escaped me that there is a mormon cadaver dunk-tank that is wrong, first of all, but I don't think that's the case.
The real problem I'm having with a lot of these arguments is the assumed bit where you say
they're still pretty much going "let's baptise this guy because we think he was wrong, despite the fact that he may very well have chosen not to get baptised during his life because he didn't agree with mormonism or because the act might actually have been spiritually reprehensible to him."
You can't assign that internal dialogue to someone. I admit that it's possible that this is the though pattern of the person doing the prayer, but it is at least equally possible that they are doing this because
a) they knew you in life
b) they cared about you and
c) this is the way they know to reconcile your death with their god.
I think this is the more likely case, but since there is no way to conclusively prove one way or the other it isn't enough to condemn the person performing the rite as insensitive or rude.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
But really is it any different to someone that doesn't share those beliefs as just talking about a dead person?
I mean I'm not religious, so if someone prays quietly that I be saved by their God then that to me is no different than if they were talking to themselves about me, you know?
Obviously if your version of prayer is a demonstration outside my family's home or church then that's a problem, but a quiet conversation between you and your god doesn't affect me at all. If you don't believe in the real God then nothing will happen, if you do and he listens I'll be ushered into heaven and send you a heavenly high-five.
they're free to do it, and i'm free to find it creepy and weird
it's a wonderful world
Calling it weird is fine. Viewing it like it's as reprehensible as human sacrifice is just plain silly though.
i... what? sure? where is human sacrifice coming into this?
I don't see how you can claim to know the desires of the dead.
If someone lives their whole life as a Jew, is very devout, and dies, still a Jew, with a will that asks that Jewish rites be performed at their funeral, I think it's pretty fucking obvious they didn't have any interest in becoming a Mormon.
Way to sidestep the issue again.
well you're assuming that a mormon baptizing a dead jew is going to have any effect whatsoever
if a mormon called me right now and said i'd been baptized and was now a mormon, i would laugh at him
Baptism isn't what makes the person a Mormon, accepting the Church as the true religion and believing that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost support the church are what make a person a member of the church. (And paying their monthly dues called tithing.)
Someone could say you have been baptised, but unless you have learned about the church and accepted its teachings as your beliefs then the baptism means nothing.
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HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
Same here.
Physical or spiritual, it's still trying to establish one religion as better or the true path over another. Keep your spiritual opinions to yourself is my opinion. Also, I believe they're hypocrites, because they would probably be pissed if say Hindus or Muslims did it to their dead, who were heathens and needed saving. Of course they won't admit it.
why are you making it into a religious pissing contest?
They believe what they believe and obviously they knew you and cared enough about you to pray for you after you died. If the rites include saying "please save Hunter because he believed in crazy purple God instead of Black Jesus like an idiot" then you'd have something, but so far you're just projecting intent to these other people.
They didn't know me
I didn't ask for nor want their "help"
Why are you making it my problem that I don't want other people poking their incorporeal nose into my spiritual business, especially since I'm not metaphysically up in theirs. They should get their phantasmal hands off my magic kool-aid.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
NO. I am NOT. I understand PERFECTLY what the ceremony entails, as do all the people who have petitioned the Church to knock it the fuck off.
I'm amazed that it's me, the soft determinist and atheist, that seems to be more capable of understanding why even this entirely symbolic ceremony, performed miles and miles away from the actual corpse, could be offensive to the descendants of the dead person in question than the people who are supposed to be learning love and human kindness from the church.
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
But really is it any different to someone that doesn't share those beliefs as just talking about a dead person?
I mean I'm not religious, so if someone prays quietly that I be saved by their God then that to me is no different than if they were talking to themselves about me, you know?
Obviously if your version of prayer is a demonstration outside my family's home or church then that's a problem, but a quiet conversation between you and your god doesn't affect me at all. If you don't believe in the real God then nothing will happen, if you do and he listens I'll be ushered into heaven and send you a heavenly high-five.
they're free to do it, and i'm free to find it creepy and weird
it's a wonderful world
Calling it weird is fine. Viewing it like it's as reprehensible as human sacrifice is just plain silly though.
Oh, sorry guys, no more complaining about people doing shitty things unless it is worse that sacrificing a human being. Pack it up.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure where to go from here to explain why the justification you just tried to provide was adding a hot, phlegmy loogie to insult to injury. You seem utterly incapable of the empathy required understand why other people would find this offensive if your response to them being pissed off is to say "look, it really doesn't impact you" when it fucking obviously has impacted them because they are pissed off about it.
I think most people in this thread were getting pissed off because they thought a more traditional baptism was being performed on cadavers without the approval of anyone. That's proven not to be the case yet you, Hunter, and Spectre-X are all still acting like it is.
did people seriously think it was a physical baptism?
really?
i think a spiritual one is still pretty perverse, though. religions should leave the dead alone.
Same here.
Physical or spiritual, it's still trying to establish one religion as better or the true path over another. Keep your spiritual opinions to yourself is my opinion. Also, I believe they're hypocrites, because they would probably be pissed if say Hindus or Muslims did it to their dead, who were heathens and needed saving. Of course they won't admit it.
I can honestly say that I could care less what other people are saying/performing within their own religion as long as they aren't physically hurting another individual.
I think it comes down to intent and that seems to be the crux of the debate right now. I know that the reason I perform baptisms for the dead is because I want everyone to have the chance to accept what I believe to be true. Its a way to show love and service for my fellow man.
You look and say I am doing it as a GIANT "EFF YOU!" to the rest of the religous community and pointing and laughing about wrong they are. If I have to stop doing something because you wrongly judge my intent, then so should everyone else in the world. And if that's the case then we have some serious issues. I could start getting offended because you are breathing in a mean way in my direction. You better stop breathing then, huh?
I apologise for being overly harsh before.
It is just that some people see it as meddling in their spiritual affairs.
All right, I have stopped caring about this. I still think it is an unintentional dick move, however.
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First, that's not what I said.
Prayer is not baptism and baptism is not prayer
A Catholic praying for a disaster victim to have an easier time =/= A Mormon praying that I really convert to their one true religion because my heathen ass is on the wrong path.
If you don't see it that way, so be it. That's my opinion of what's going on no matter how they want to spin or sugar coat it. Religion is a personal experience you share with those who are of similar thought. If people don't agree with you, forcibly trying to change them or subversively trying to change them is not cool. Even if your intentions are noble or you think you're really getting them a better seat in heaven.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
They aren't actually doing anything to the dead though. I mean if religion shouldn't apply to the dead and afterlife what the fuck should it apply to?
That made me LOL. I got a wonderfully funny mental image of baptism duels.
And wake up in black paints, white shirt, and black tie.
edit: Riding a bike
Because I'm not dim enough to believe something without studying it first.
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Isn't that the whole point of joiing a church? Appropriating some else's existing beliefs rather than craft and chose the ones you need?
Same here.
Physical or spiritual, it's still trying to establish one religion as better or the true path over another. Keep your spiritual opinions to yourself is my opinion. Also, I believe they're hypocrites, because they would probably be pissed if say Hindus or Muslims did it to their dead, who were heathens and needed saving. Of course they won't admit it.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
With a backpack.
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I mean I'm not religious, so if someone prays quietly that I be saved by their God then that to me is no different than if they were talking to themselves about me, you know?
Obviously if your version of prayer is a demonstration outside my family's home or church then that's a problem, but a quiet conversation between you and your god doesn't affect me at all. If you don't believe in the real God then nothing will happen, if you do and he listens I'll be ushered into heaven and send you a heavenly high-five.
HA HA HA HA HA!
Then he shows you a picture that said monkeys are not turds, I mean, seriously now.
You are so fucking stupid, man.
I have and am studying it. If you cannot wrap it around your thick skull that it is not what I believe, and that doesn't change even if everyone else in my church believed it, then that's your deal. I'm done arguing it with you.
5 up high!
think about it
religious cold war
constant escalation of baptisms
an arms race to see who can baptize more dead people
They believe what they believe and obviously they knew you and cared enough about you to pray for you after you died. If the rites include saying "please save Hunter because he believed in crazy purple God instead of Black Jesus like an idiot" then you'd have something, but so far you're just projecting intent to these other people.
If someone lives their whole life as a Jew, is very devout, and dies, still a Jew, with a will that asks that Jewish rites be performed at their funeral, I think it's pretty fucking obvious they didn't have any interest in becoming a Mormon.
Way to sidestep the issue again.
If someone were to do some ritual using the names of my deceased ancestors in some other religion, it wouldn't bother me at all, because I don't believe in it. It's harmless. It really puzzles me how people who believe religion is bullshit get so offended by the mere belief in religion (not acts done in religion's name, two different things) or how religious people get offended by the assertions of other religions. There are a lot of religions--get used to being in the minority, whoever you are.
You know who has been super pissed on an official level on baptism for the dead, though? Jews. LDS leaders have met with Jews and there have been some uneasy compromises on the subject. As Calvin says: a good compromise leaves everybody mad.
Jews are probably madder though >_<
well you're assuming that a mormon baptizing a dead jew is going to have any effect whatsoever
if a mormon called me right now and said i'd been baptized and was now a mormon, i would laugh at him
I do not believe that they would actually do something to my corpse should they decide to baptise me after death.
It's still pretty insensitive, though, because they're still pretty much going "let's baptise this guy because we think he was wrong, despite the fact that he may very well have chosen not to get baptised during his life because he didn't agree with mormonism or because the act might actually have been spiritually reprehensible to him."
It's not necessarily uncaring, that depends on who's doing it and what their personal motives are, but the fact remains that it is pretty insensitive because relatives of deceased people have actually asked the LDS to stop baptising their deceased family members without even asking.
And if what GRMike is saying is correct, the act is literally baptising someone against their will so they can go to what the mormons believe is heaven.
they're free to do it, and i'm free to find it creepy and weird
it's a wonderful world
But we have real life Mormons telling us that I'm wrong, so who cares? Right?
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Except in your analogy, he would call and ask if you wanted to be baptized.
You'd tell him no and that's that.
I can honestly say that I could care less what other people are saying/performing within their own religion as long as they aren't physically hurting another individual.
I think it comes down to intent and that seems to be the crux of the debate right now. I know that the reason I perform baptisms for the dead is because I want everyone to have the chance to accept what I believe to be true. Its a way to show love and service for my fellow man.
You look and say I am doing it as a GIANT "EFF YOU!" to the rest of the religous community and pointing and laughing about wrong they are. If I have to stop doing something because you wrongly judge my intent, then so should everyone else in the world. And if that's the case then we have some serious issues. I could start getting offended because you are breathing in a mean way in my direction. You better stop breathing then, huh?
This.
Also, it's just someone who is alive getting baptized. So instead of a prayer, they go and do baptisms. I don't see why the prayer for the dead is okay, but the getting baptized for someone isn't? If religion is bullshit, aren't they both equally bullshit? I don't get it.
Also, the belief is that the dead person still has a choice whether to accept it or not. I know that probably means nothing, but some people seem to be think that it's a baptism that the dead has no choice over. Mr. Dead Jew who wants to be a Jew will be told someone got baptized for him and if he doesn't want anything to do with it, he doesn't have to.
And if there's no life after death, none of this really matters, does it?
It would be like wizard duels. Bitching.
Way to completely miss the point.
but assuming he didn't ask, it still wouldn't change anything as far as i was concerned
on the other hand, their record keeping practices are not good
as in, it is my understanding that they make a note somewhere that so-and-so was baptized mormon and then if anyone asks about that person in a genealogical survey, that person will be listed as mormon
apparently the mormons are really good record keepers so a lot of people rely on them for that
Calling it weird is fine. Viewing it like it's as reprehensible as human sacrifice is just plain silly though.
Well I'll admit that if I'm wrong and that somehow it has escaped me that there is a mormon cadaver dunk-tank that is wrong, first of all, but I don't think that's the case.
The real problem I'm having with a lot of these arguments is the assumed bit where you say
You can't assign that internal dialogue to someone. I admit that it's possible that this is the though pattern of the person doing the prayer, but it is at least equally possible that they are doing this because
a) they knew you in life
b) they cared about you and
c) this is the way they know to reconcile your death with their god.
I think this is the more likely case, but since there is no way to conclusively prove one way or the other it isn't enough to condemn the person performing the rite as insensitive or rude.
at this rate heaven is going to be a fucking mall, a store for every religion. don't forget to get baptized and receive your 20% off coupon!
i... what? sure? where is human sacrifice coming into this?
maybe i should read more of this thread
Baptism isn't what makes the person a Mormon, accepting the Church as the true religion and believing that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost support the church are what make a person a member of the church. (And paying their monthly dues called tithing.)
Someone could say you have been baptised, but unless you have learned about the church and accepted its teachings as your beliefs then the baptism means nothing.
They didn't know me
I didn't ask for nor want their "help"
Why are you making it my problem that I don't want other people poking their incorporeal nose into my spiritual business, especially since I'm not metaphysically up in theirs. They should get their phantasmal hands off my magic kool-aid.
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NO. I am NOT. I understand PERFECTLY what the ceremony entails, as do all the people who have petitioned the Church to knock it the fuck off.
I'm amazed that it's me, the soft determinist and atheist, that seems to be more capable of understanding why even this entirely symbolic ceremony, performed miles and miles away from the actual corpse, could be offensive to the descendants of the dead person in question than the people who are supposed to be learning love and human kindness from the church.
Except the coupon is more like a get out of hell free card.
I apologise for being overly harsh before.
It is just that some people see it as meddling in their spiritual affairs.
All right, I have stopped caring about this. I still think it is an unintentional dick move, however.