It would seem that in this modern age that it's impossible to go anywhere under the sea without crashing into a nuclear submarine. Is this just a regular occurrence, these things bouncing off each other all the time, and I haven't noticed before, a strange coincidence, or evidence of something more substantial? Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar? Have navies increased patrol speeds to reckless levels? Honestly, it would seem if you are at the helm of a nuclear sub filled to the brim with missiles and sailors you would naturally be a careful driver!
It would seem that in this modern age that it's impossible to go anywhere under the sea without crashing into a nuclear submarine. Is this just a regular occurrence, these things bouncing off each other all the time, and I haven't noticed before, a strange coincidence, or evidence of something more substantial? Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar? Have navies increased patrol speeds to reckless levels? Honestly, it would seem if you are at the helm of a nuclear sub filled to the brim with missiles and sailors you would naturally be a careful driver!
The thing about submarines is that they're quiet..
First of all this is a bit silly, this happened pretty often during the cold war.. this isn't anything new, it's more a case that is actually reported about now. Also, submarines when on active service will very rarely use active sonar (subs do have radar masts but again.. it's used rarely)
Thing about radar is that it's used on the surface as water is really good at absorbing radiation like that emitted by radar.. this is why if you go diving in the water it gets dark pretty quickly the further down you go as the water is ridiculously good at absorbing the light. Also, it's an active system, meaning it can be detected and your position triangulated. Same kind of thing with active sonar, which uses sound. If you make sound you can be found. Therefore active sonar is rarely used by submarines.
Passive sonar on western subs is ridiculously good, but the thing is that western subs are also ridiculously quiet as well.
The way submarines work is that they'll be given an area to patrol, nobody else will know that route unless it's a pre-planned one. Also, they work alone as it decreases their chances of being detected.
This simply isn't a case of bad sub drivers or anything like that, it's most likely the US has more than a few submarines close to Iranian waters doing penetration testing, mapping the area if they haven't already, that kind of thing. (and friendly submarines do not know the positions of each and neither do the friendly surface ships)
The USA has the largest submarine fleet at last check I think that was 80. Whilst the Royal Navy has for example 12. The Russians used to have a submarine fleet in the hundreds but since the end of the cold war the actual number of active submarines is believed to be less than 30 although it's probably questionable as to whether they are actually battle ready. They supposedly have roughly 50 submarines in port although they are more than likely in various states of decay due to lack of investment in maintenance etc.
GrimReaper on
PSN | Steam
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar?
Radar doesn't work underwater because radio waves don't propagate.
Subs have sonar, but it's a double edged sword because it can't be used without giving away the position of the submarine using it. Since Nuclear subs are meant to be undetectable (and their usefulness as a deterrent depends on it), they don't use active sonar. Instead, they depend on "Passive Sonar", which basically amounts to listening to the noise other vessels make and using that to locate them relative to the submarine. Since nuclear subs are stealthy, they're very difficult to locate in this way.
Nuclear subs are essentially blind to each other, this is what they were designed for.
Some countries (the US and the UK, for example) have agreements that their subs will stay within certain (moving) areas of sea that don't overlap. The problem is that it's very difficult to tell if anyone is actually sticking to such agreements.
The incident with the US also took place close to a shipping lane within a strait. Fairly confined space in an area with that degree of traffic just raises the probability of these things happening. Must be a hell of an experience hitting anything in a submarine
It would seem that in this modern age that it's impossible to go anywhere under the sea without crashing into a nuclear submarine. Is this just a regular occurrence, these things bouncing off each other all the time, and I haven't noticed before, a strange coincidence, or evidence of something more substantial? Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar? Have navies increased patrol speeds to reckless levels? Honestly, it would seem if you are at the helm of a nuclear sub filled to the brim with missiles and sailors you would naturally be a careful driver!
Patrol speeds are, like, 3mph. You realize two the two subs that collided were ridiculously heavy, right? They're carrying nuclear missiles, which are very large. And they came out of it with a couple of dents, and a damaged sonar cone (which is really fragile, anyhow). It was a one in a million chance.
And in the strait of Hormuz, someone just fucked up. There are a lot of boats in a very tight area. It's going to happen.
Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar?
Radar doesn't work underwater because radio waves don't propagate.
Subs have sonar, but it's a double edged sword because it can't be used without giving away the position of the submarine using it. Since Nuclear subs are meant to be undetectable (and their usefulness as a deterrent depends on it), they don't use active sonar. Instead, they depend on "Passive Sonar", which basically amounts to listening to the noise other vessels make and using that to locate them relative to the submarine. Since nuclear subs are stealthy, they're very difficult to locate in this way.
Nuclear subs are essentially blind to each other, this is what they were designed for.
Some countries (the US and the UK, for example) have agreements that their subs will stay within certain (moving) areas of sea that don't overlap. The problem is that it's very difficult to tell if anyone is actually sticking to such agreements.
It would seem that in this modern age that it's impossible to go anywhere under the sea without crashing into a nuclear submarine. Is this just a regular occurrence, these things bouncing off each other all the time, and I haven't noticed before, a strange coincidence, or evidence of something more substantial? Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar? Have navies increased patrol speeds to reckless levels? Honestly, it would seem if you are at the helm of a nuclear sub filled to the brim with missiles and sailors you would naturally be a careful driver!
Patrol speeds are, like, 3mph. You realize two the two subs that collided were ridiculously heavy, right? They're carrying nuclear missiles, which are very large. And they came out of it with a couple of dents, and a damaged sonar cone (which is really fragile, anyhow). It was a one in a million chance.
And in the strait of Hormuz, someone just fucked up. There are a lot of boats in a very tight area. It's going to happen.
I just couldn't believe it had happened twice in as many months and that I'd never heard of it happening before. I suppose in random events a cluster is no proof of a pattern.
Are modern subs so stealthy that they simply cannot be seen on radar?
Radar doesn't work underwater because radio waves don't propagate.
Subs have sonar, but it's a double edged sword because it can't be used without giving away the position of the submarine using it. Since Nuclear subs are meant to be undetectable (and their usefulness as a deterrent depends on it), they don't use active sonar. Instead, they depend on "Passive Sonar", which basically amounts to listening to the noise other vessels make and using that to locate them relative to the submarine. Since nuclear subs are stealthy, they're very difficult to locate in this way.
Nuclear subs are essentially blind to each other, this is what they were designed for.
Some countries (the US and the UK, for example) have agreements that their subs will stay within certain (moving) areas of sea that don't overlap. The problem is that it's very difficult to tell if anyone is actually sticking to such agreements.
I meant Sonar
When you flip on your active sonar you're basically broadcasting to everyone in the world where your sub is hiding.
This thread makes me want to go play Silent Hunter III or IV.
Chances of crashing into each other probably isn't very big, but why aren't submarines of the same nation allowed to know the patrol patterns of the others? Is there some kind of risk of that knowledge?
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
And they came out of it with a couple of dents, and a damaged sonar cone (which is really fragile, anyhow).
Sonar cones are generally made of some kind of plastic, because the priority in their design is acoustic transparency. They're not even structural parts. Think of it like the plastic bumper on a car.
If this is the US sub/ship crash (I can't check BBC News at work), they were in the same battlegroup. They both should have been tracking each other on sonar, and they would have coordinated the transit to make sure this didn't happen.
A bunch of people had to fuck up for these two to hit each other.
This thread makes me want to go play Silent Hunter III or IV.
Chances of crashing into each other probably isn't very big, but why aren't submarines of the same nation allowed to know the patrol patterns of the others? Is there some kind of risk of that knowledge?
The odds of a secret being leaked go up exponentially with the number of people who know it?
This thread makes me want to go play Silent Hunter III or IV.
Chances of crashing into each other probably isn't very big, but why aren't submarines of the same nation allowed to know the patrol patterns of the others? Is there some kind of risk of that knowledge?
Need-to-know. If you've got a spy on one submarine, and that submarine knows where all of your submarines are...
But yeah, the two U.S. ships that crashed was just someone fucking up big-time. The French/English subs was just a one-in-a-million chance.
This thread makes me want to go play Silent Hunter III or IV.
Chances of crashing into each other probably isn't very big, but why aren't submarines of the same nation allowed to know the patrol patterns of the others? Is there some kind of risk of that knowledge?
The odds of a secret being leaked go up exponentially with the number of people who know it?
Well, er... yes, I suppose that's true. Damn my sleepiness. Submarines are the sneaky sneaky, after all. I guess the people handing out the missions must, at the very least, know or have an idea of the other submarines so they can minimize risk of collision.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
This thread makes me want to go play Silent Hunter III or IV.
Chances of crashing into each other probably isn't very big, but why aren't submarines of the same nation allowed to know the patrol patterns of the others? Is there some kind of risk of that knowledge?
The odds of a secret being leaked go up exponentially with the number of people who know it?
Yep. One sub being compromised doesn't compromise the rest of the fleet..
The mental image of a bunch of whales and sea creatures and shit, watching these two subs cruising ever so slowly towards immenant collision, is an entertaining image to say the least. Eating sea-popcorn and such. And then when they collide with a pleasant CLUNK, the animals cheer, and move on with their lives.
MetroidZoid on
Steam
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
If anyone was at fault it was the sub. the Surface navy will only know that a sub is in the area, meaning an area about the size of Washington state.
Navigating a sub in one of the worlds most trafficked strait (much of it is off limits because it is territorial waters) is hard. I've been through the strait and its no fucking joke.
A bunch of people had to fuck up for these two to hit each other.
You really could not be more wrong.
Greg USN on
FFXIV Petra Ironheart Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
While the ocean is large, I've heard that there are parts near the currents with odd sonar deflecting properties because of the sudden change in temperature that any smart sub commander would use. So pretty much every sub commander in the world uses the same super secret hiding spots.
While the ocean is large, I've heard that there are parts near the currents with odd sonar deflecting properties because of the sudden change in temperature that any smart sub commander would use. So pretty much every sub commander in the world uses the same super secret hiding spots.
This is in all parts of the ocean and it's called the thermocline.
Also, whilst the ocean is large there will be areas where there is likely to be lots of submarine activity. For example i'd harbour a guess there are plenty of subs in the persian gulf area, there is likely to be a fair few around korea and the china sea.
GrimReaper on
PSN | Steam
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Posts
The thing about submarines is that they're quiet..
First of all this is a bit silly, this happened pretty often during the cold war.. this isn't anything new, it's more a case that is actually reported about now. Also, submarines when on active service will very rarely use active sonar (subs do have radar masts but again.. it's used rarely)
Thing about radar is that it's used on the surface as water is really good at absorbing radiation like that emitted by radar.. this is why if you go diving in the water it gets dark pretty quickly the further down you go as the water is ridiculously good at absorbing the light. Also, it's an active system, meaning it can be detected and your position triangulated. Same kind of thing with active sonar, which uses sound. If you make sound you can be found. Therefore active sonar is rarely used by submarines.
Passive sonar on western subs is ridiculously good, but the thing is that western subs are also ridiculously quiet as well.
The way submarines work is that they'll be given an area to patrol, nobody else will know that route unless it's a pre-planned one. Also, they work alone as it decreases their chances of being detected.
This simply isn't a case of bad sub drivers or anything like that, it's most likely the US has more than a few submarines close to Iranian waters doing penetration testing, mapping the area if they haven't already, that kind of thing. (and friendly submarines do not know the positions of each and neither do the friendly surface ships)
The USA has the largest submarine fleet at last check I think that was 80. Whilst the Royal Navy has for example 12. The Russians used to have a submarine fleet in the hundreds but since the end of the cold war the actual number of active submarines is believed to be less than 30 although it's probably questionable as to whether they are actually battle ready. They supposedly have roughly 50 submarines in port although they are more than likely in various states of decay due to lack of investment in maintenance etc.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Radar doesn't work underwater because radio waves don't propagate.
Subs have sonar, but it's a double edged sword because it can't be used without giving away the position of the submarine using it. Since Nuclear subs are meant to be undetectable (and their usefulness as a deterrent depends on it), they don't use active sonar. Instead, they depend on "Passive Sonar", which basically amounts to listening to the noise other vessels make and using that to locate them relative to the submarine. Since nuclear subs are stealthy, they're very difficult to locate in this way.
Nuclear subs are essentially blind to each other, this is what they were designed for.
Some countries (the US and the UK, for example) have agreements that their subs will stay within certain (moving) areas of sea that don't overlap. The problem is that it's very difficult to tell if anyone is actually sticking to such agreements.
And in the strait of Hormuz, someone just fucked up. There are a lot of boats in a very tight area. It's going to happen.
I meant Sonar
I just couldn't believe it had happened twice in as many months and that I'd never heard of it happening before. I suppose in random events a cluster is no proof of a pattern.
When you flip on your active sonar you're basically broadcasting to everyone in the world where your sub is hiding.
Chances of crashing into each other probably isn't very big, but why aren't submarines of the same nation allowed to know the patrol patterns of the others? Is there some kind of risk of that knowledge?
Sonar cones are generally made of some kind of plastic, because the priority in their design is acoustic transparency. They're not even structural parts. Think of it like the plastic bumper on a car.
A bunch of people had to fuck up for these two to hit each other.
sometimes its not always better where its wetter
sometimes its just ridiculously boring
The odds of a secret being leaked go up exponentially with the number of people who know it?
But yeah, the two U.S. ships that crashed was just someone fucking up big-time. The French/English subs was just a one-in-a-million chance.
Well, er... yes, I suppose that's true. Damn my sleepiness. Submarines are the sneaky sneaky, after all. I guess the people handing out the missions must, at the very least, know or have an idea of the other submarines so they can minimize risk of collision.
Yep. One sub being compromised doesn't compromise the rest of the fleet..
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
Navigating a sub in one of the worlds most trafficked strait (much of it is off limits because it is territorial waters) is hard. I've been through the strait and its no fucking joke.
You really could not be more wrong.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
In the deepest, heaviest most brutal parts.
This is in all parts of the ocean and it's called the thermocline.
Also, whilst the ocean is large there will be areas where there is likely to be lots of submarine activity. For example i'd harbour a guess there are plenty of subs in the persian gulf area, there is likely to be a fair few around korea and the china sea.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.