The drinking age should never be lowered. I think the drinking age in the UK should be raised to 21 for definite, It's shows pretty strongly that the drinking atmosphere of the UK is pretty appalling sometimes and I can't see it being better in the US if the age was 18 as well.
Just because your old enough to make your own decisions it doesn't mean you're mature enough to act properly when drunk. Although, 21+ year olds can tend to be just as bad, it just makes it more definite.
Appalling how?
Also consider that at 18 we believe they're mature enough to have a hand in electing a new President for the United States. Though I guess with drunk driving, consumption of alcohol can be a life or death issue.
The drinking age should never be lowered. I think the drinking age in the UK should be raised to 21 for definite, It's shows pretty strongly that the drinking atmosphere of the UK is pretty appalling sometimes and I can't see it being better in the US if the age was 18 as well.
Just because your old enough to make your own decisions it doesn't mean you're mature enough to act properly when drunk. Although, 21+ year olds can tend to be just as bad, it just makes it more definite.
Appalling how?
Also consider that at 18 we believe they're mature enough to have a hand in electing a new President for the United States. Though I guess with drunk driving, consumption of alcohol can be a life or death issue.
I'd rather see the drinking age lowered to 16 and driver's license to 18.
Would never pass. Some people have work and shit to do by the time they are 16, and they need to get to those places. We are not Europe where people just walk everywhere because they are so tiny anyway and our mass transit system is pretty shoddy in some parts of this country.
So in short, you proposed a terrible idea, completely out of touch with the special needs of American lives.
I didn't realize most 16 year old were emancipated in the rest of the country. The more you know.
You've never heard of 16 year olds having jobs or doing work outside the home, or going to school?
When I was 13 I was doing significant volunteer work downtown. Where was my car?
Maybe, just maybe, drinking wouldnt be this huge passage of right were a bunch of moron kids go out and binge drink and die. Then we wouldnt have to hear about how these dumbasses killed themselves on the news and how we should all feel sorry for a moron who drank himself to death.
So basically, what you're saying is that if kids are allowed to drink at any age, by the time they reach driving age it won't be "WOOOOOOO just drank 40 beers cause I'm cool like that! Now let's Go Drive!"?
I find this plausible.
I don't.
A drunk is a drunk.
Well, don't let all the research showing how much lower instances of drunk driving and binge drinking are in countries with less draconian drinking laws impact your opinion one bit. Not that you would... we all know how much you abhor facts.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Personally I'm against both. With the fact that there's already a rather large amount of deaths due to drunk driving and abuse of alcohol, I don't think the age should be reduced to 18, because I'm not saying that ALL 18 year olds are irresponsible, but there are some. To allow them to drink would most likely induce binge drinking, drunk driving, and all that wonderful stuff, causing alcohol poisioning, and probably more deaths off innocent people on the road.
First of all, a lot of countries have drinking ages set at 18 already, and their country hasn't come down around their ears.
Second of all, binge drinking is a result IMO of not getting to drink very often, so you over indulge when you get the opportunity. If you have the ability to walk into a store and buy alcohol at any point, that need to overindulge drops greatly.
Also, if you have to walk to a bar, pay a minimum of around $5 for a drink, and then walk home, you're less likely to get quite as incredibly shitfaced.
I mean, technically you could just binge in your room, but what kind of loser has a party in the dorms instead of going out?
A loser who is a poor student, which most of the people I knew were.
Here the drinking age is 18/19 (it's 18 in Quebec and 19 in Ontario, but Quebec is about 15 minutes from the middle of downtown) and it's fine. I really think that the drinking age should be lowered to a year before kids go off to university. Then in that year you can responsibly drink and get yourself home to your parents, learn what your limits are, and learn about the kind of drinking you like to do. Having to do that all at university, illegally so you have to hide it, with no adult supervisor and nobody to really call on if something goes wrong? No wonder kids are drinking themselves to death.
That said, I went to the states when I was 20 when I had been legally drinking for around 2 years and I thought it was rather ludicrous that I wasn't even allowed into the liquor store.
Also raising the drivers license age is retarded. So is limiting passengers, like they tried to do here. Roughly 20-25% of the population of both the US and Canada live in rural areas where shit like walking and public transportation are not an option. These kids need to be working at 16 and they need cars.
I'd rather see the drinking age lowered to 16 and driver's license to 18.
Would never pass. Some people have work and shit to do by the time they are 16, and they need to get to those places. We are not Europe where people just walk everywhere because they are so tiny anyway and our mass transit system is pretty shoddy in some parts of this country.
So in short, you proposed a terrible idea, completely out of touch with the special needs of American lives.
I didn't realize most 16 year old were emancipated in the rest of the country. The more you know.
You've never heard of 16 year olds having jobs or doing work outside the home, or going to school?
When I was 13 I was doing significant volunteer work downtown. Where was my car?
And actually, in Illinois at least, you can start to work at 15. Not to mention that you only get a handshake with your driver's license, and not a free car.
Maybe, just maybe, drinking wouldnt be this huge passage of right were a bunch of moron kids go out and binge drink and die. Then we wouldnt have to hear about how these dumbasses killed themselves on the news and how we should all feel sorry for a moron who drank himself to death.
So basically, what you're saying is that if kids are allowed to drink at any age, by the time they reach driving age it won't be "WOOOOOOO just drank 40 beers cause I'm cool like that! Now let's Go Drive!"?
I find this plausible.
I don't.
A drunk is a drunk.
Special, what does that have to do with people who aren't drunks?
The drinking age should never be lowered. I think the drinking age in the UK should be raised to 21 for definite, It's shows pretty strongly that the drinking atmosphere of the UK is pretty appalling sometimes and I can't see it being better in the US if the age was 18 as well.
Just because your old enough to make your own decisions it doesn't mean you're mature enough to act properly when drunk. Although, 21+ year olds can tend to be just as bad, it just makes it more definite.
Make alcohol even more forbidden and people will just drink more. Being over 21 doesn't stop you being a drunken dick.
There are big social issues here. Middle class kids have endless access to alcohol, drugs and partying and still do fine at life; poorer kids have less access to all of it and still tend to end up doing abysmally. Raising the age limit on alcohol to 21 would do nothing to deal with these.
Were I in charge I'd either do one of two things: Allow kids to drink stuff below some arbitrary-but-low percentage, like 1% or whatever, and hey, beer is no longer forbidden, everyone gets used to drinking in moderation whilst young, and we help deal with Britain's ridiculous binge drinking issue; Or ban it completely and keep everyone in line by legalising a bunch of other drugs. I'm sure the pharmaceutical industry has a whole cupboard full of drugs that make people euphoric but still fairly sensible, calm and coherent that they would dearly love to be able to sell to Britain's drug-hooked masses.
I remember reading a history book on 13th century England. One member of the clergy is down for having remarked that England would be the best place on Earth if everyone wasn't so damn drunk the whole time (or words to that effect). Bugger all has changed in 800 years.
Drinking and dying for your country are two completely unrelated things and comparing them is an asinine argument.
The drinking age should be lowered to 18 because keeping it at 21 is unenforceable and only puts 18-21 year olds in situations that encourage irresponsible drinking.
I'd rather see the drinking age lowered to 16 and driver's license to 18.
More or less, yeah.
I think it should be closer to 14/16, but yeah.
Ideally I think it should be harder for everybody to get a license, but with the crappy state of public transit in our country I don't think that's feasible.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Drinking and dying for your country are two completely unrelated things and comparing them is an asinine argument.
It is. If "dying for your country" or any variant thereof is included in an argument you can usually expect it to be asinine.
A better argument is this: can you say that all people in a certain age group (18-21) are overwhelmingly not mature enough to handle alcohol safely but are mature enough to carry the American flag into another country, into battle, handling a rifle, or a plane, or a tank, or casualties, and follow orders (relatively) safely and correctly and professionally, without compromising the country's mission or causing collateral damage or any other of a very large number of disasters that can easily result from being put in such a position?
The drinking age should never be lowered. I think the drinking age in the UK should be raised to 21 for definite, It's shows pretty strongly that the drinking atmosphere of the UK is pretty appalling sometimes and I can't see it being better in the US if the age was 18 as well.
Just because your old enough to make your own decisions it doesn't mean you're mature enough to act properly when drunk. Although, 21+ year olds can tend to be just as bad, it just makes it more definite.
Yes, so let's force the "legal adults" to take hide their immature drunkenness away from more mature elements that would encourage moderation. That'll learn em.
That said, I went to the states when I was 20 when I had been legally drinking for around 2 years and I thought it was rather ludicrous that I wasn't even allowed into the liquor store.
It really is ludicrous. My younger sister was yelled at by a store clerk for carrying a bottle of wine among other groceries while shopping with my dad once. I mean, seriously? Do we really need to be placing this much importance on alcohol?
Drinking and dying for your country are two completely unrelated things and comparing them is an asinine argument.
It is. If "dying for your country" or any variant thereof is included in an argument you can usually expect it to be asinine.
A better argument is this: can you say that all people in a certain age group (18-21) are overwhelmingly not mature enough to handle alcohol safely but are mature enough to carry the American flag into another country, into battle, handling a rifle, or a plane, or a tank, or casualties, and follow orders (relatively) safely and correctly and professionally, without compromising the country's mission or causing collateral damage or any other of a very large number of disasters that can easily result from being put in such a position?
Well, "personal freedom" and "Fighting for one's country" do have very little to do with each other.
Drinking and dying for your country are two completely unrelated things and comparing them is an asinine argument.
It is. If "dying for your country" or any variant thereof is included in an argument you can usually expect it to be asinine.
A better argument is this: can you say that all people in a certain age group (18-21) are overwhelmingly not mature enough to handle alcohol safely but are mature enough to carry the American flag into another country, into battle, handling a rifle, or a plane, or a tank, or casualties, and follow orders (relatively) safely and correctly and professionally, without compromising the country's mission or causing collateral damage or any other of a very large number of disasters that can easily result from being put in such a position?
Well, "personal freedom" and "Fighting for one's country" do have very little to do with each other.
...No, they have everything to do with each other. The reason we don't let 18-year-olds drink is also much of the reason we don't let 15-year-olds fight wars: their inability, or perceived inability, to do so safely.
The drinking age should never be lowered. I think the drinking age in the UK should be raised to 21 for definite, It's shows pretty strongly that the drinking atmosphere of the UK is pretty appalling sometimes and I can't see it being better in the US if the age was 18 as well.
Just because your old enough to make your own decisions it doesn't mean you're mature enough to act properly when drunk. Although, 21+ year olds can tend to be just as bad, it just makes it more definite.
By this logic our reaction to teenage car accidents should be to not let anyone drive on public roads until they're 21, make sure the first time they get behind the wheel is in an illegal street race, and then hand everyone keys on their 21st birthday with no other preparation and hope for the best.
If you make sure the only exposure people have to something is in illegal and abusive situations while denying them any access to it in responsible settings right up until you open the flood gates, amazingly enough bad things will happen. I appreciate that America is a relatively fucked up place where people tend to knee jerk in the directions of punitive reactions and "protecting teh children!" but for god's sake, there are literally exactly analogous societies that show when you don't make it a huge taboo and overact about how important it is, people act like adults when dealing with alcohol.
werehippy on
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Hey this is an issue that I am personally affected by, being that I am 18 and in the Army
I think it should be lowered to 18, simply because no-one I have ever encountered, ever, has given me a good reason why I should be allowed to join the military at 17(?!) but have to wait 4 years to be able to drink. No one has. Ever.
Bad excuses include:
"Well you could overdrink and then you wouldn't be mission capable blargle blargle blargle" (Disregarding any of my over-21 coworkers could do that as well, 1. you're not allowed to drink, under any circumstances, whilst on duty, 2. going on duty drunk is against the UCMJ and is some serious fucking shit if they catch you, 3. you're not allowed to drink, under any circumstances, whilst deployed)
"Being under 21 you're more prone to driving drunk blargle blargle blargle" (That has nothing to do with drinking, that has everything to do with having poor decision-making capabilities and not being able to have a DD or some shit. Making drinking under 21 illegal doesn't magically reduce the rates of DUIs, and anyone who thinks that is retarded.)
Reasons why it fucking should be legalized:
1. No one sane can legitimately argue that I'm mature enough to defend this county, but not mature enough to drink responsibly out of uniform, when I'm not deployed
2. That rule, as applies to the military, is a fucking joke. No one follows it, I can and have gotten quite wasted whilst under 21. So what's the fucking point of having it? There is none, because it has no teeth and it's just feel-good legislation
Well, from a strictly medical standpoint your brain continues developing into your early 20's, and alcohol can impede that development. However, I think social constructs trump biological on this one, simply due to how much damage alcohol does to people between the ages of 18 and 21. I think a lot of people use the injustice of not being able to drink at 18 as an excuse and tend to go fucking bombers with it.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Someone really needs to figure out a effective test of maturity.
I just hate the taboo culture of the US. Parents keep over-protecting their kids, trying to sanitize them from the filthy evil world, instead of preparing them, so that when the parents finally do have to let go and let the kid do their own thing. They're just simply not ready for freedom and responsibility and they usually over do it on things like drinking and that's when bad shit happens.
I was living with my aunt and uncle during the last two years of high school (never knew my dad and my mom had a mental breakdown so my aunt and uncle took over) and my uncle would occasionally let me have a beer. I was at that point of my life though where I thought beer tasted horrible (or maybe it was because my uncle didn't drink nothing but Bud...who knows)
Once I got to college, I had complete access to any alcohol I wanted, so of course I got wasted a few times, and eventually acquired a taste for beer and hard liquor. Either I just simply wasn't that adventurous or I just got the whole taboo about alcohol out of my system early, but by the time I did turn 21...I just never felt the need to go do a bar crawl because it was just such a non-issue to me.
To me it's just an issue of being prepared. Regardless of how a parent feels about alcohol, they need to prepare their kids for the reality of it and IMO, that means eliminating the taboo and the whole "woo I'm being rebellious because I'm drinking underage" mentality instead of sheltering and sanitizing kids from it. The whole alcohol thing just needs to be de-mystified for kids. My uncle did right by me IMO and let me drink in a way so that he could control it. Thanks to that, I know what it does to me and I know how much I can tolerate so that even when I do feel like getting wasted, I can at least plan ahead and make sure I don't have to drive so that the only stupid thing I can do is socially.
Drinking and dying for your country are two completely unrelated things and comparing them is an asinine argument.
It is. If "dying for your country" or any variant thereof is included in an argument you can usually expect it to be asinine.
A better argument is this: can you say that all people in a certain age group (18-21) are overwhelmingly not mature enough to handle alcohol safely but are mature enough to carry the American flag into another country, into battle, handling a rifle, or a plane, or a tank, or casualties, and follow orders (relatively) safely and correctly and professionally, without compromising the country's mission or causing collateral damage or any other of a very large number of disasters that can easily result from being put in such a position?
Well, "personal freedom" and "Fighting for one's country" do have very little to do with each other.
...No, they have everything to do with each other. The reason we don't let 18-year-olds drink is also much of the reason we don't let 15-year-olds fight wars: their inability, or perceived inability, to do so safely.
One has to do with following orders and the other has to do with being able to do what you want. They are different from each other and no wonder.
We don't let 15 year old go to war inhumane/immoral to train 15 year olds to kill for the military, "safety" has little to do with it. The difference between 18 year old drinking and 21 year old drinking is not a moral issue.
When considering safety, I think we can agree that unsupervised underage binge drinking is way, way, less safe than 18 year olds being able to drink in bars and openly, while being under the same scrutiny from peers and the law about not being a drunk asshole in public.
Maybe, just maybe, drinking wouldnt be this huge passage of right were a bunch of moron kids go out and binge drink and die. Then we wouldnt have to hear about how these dumbasses killed themselves on the news and how we should all feel sorry for a moron who drank himself to death.
So basically, what you're saying is that if kids are allowed to drink at any age, by the time they reach driving age it won't be "WOOOOOOO just drank 40 beers cause I'm cool like that! Now let's Go Drive!"?
I find this plausible.
Despite our glorification of drinking the one thing that MADD have done is I've never met somebody my age who thinks drunk driving is cool, alright, whatever.
I have, a few times.
But more often it's people who are much, much older than the drinking age (late 20s and up). I don't know what it is about this upper-class suburban life, but it really just chews people up and strips them of their common sense.
I was an over-night guy at a cornerstore/pharmacy, so I was always around at last call. I grew so disgusted by it that I eventually just quit.
Drinking and dying for your country are two completely unrelated things and comparing them is an asinine argument.
It is. If "dying for your country" or any variant thereof is included in an argument you can usually expect it to be asinine.
A better argument is this: can you say that all people in a certain age group (18-21) are overwhelmingly not mature enough to handle alcohol safely but are mature enough to carry the American flag into another country, into battle, handling a rifle, or a plane, or a tank, or casualties, and follow orders (relatively) safely and correctly and professionally, without compromising the country's mission or causing collateral damage or any other of a very large number of disasters that can easily result from being put in such a position?
Well, "personal freedom" and "Fighting for one's country" do have very little to do with each other.
...No, they have everything to do with each other. The reason we don't let 18-year-olds drink is also much of the reason we don't let 15-year-olds fight wars: their inability, or perceived inability, to do so safely.
One has to do with following orders and the other has to do with being able to do what you want. They are different from each other and no wonder.
We don't let 15 year old go to war inhumane/immoral to train 15 year olds to kill for the military, "safety" has little to do with it. The difference between 18 year old drinking and 21 year old drinking is not a moral issue.
When considering safety, I think we can agree that unsupervised underage binge drinking is way, way, less safe than 18 year olds being able to drink in bars and openly, while being under the same scrutiny from peers and the law about not being a drunk asshole in public.
Why is it immoral or inhumane to train a 15 year old to kill for the military?
If the 15 year old wants to do it, why not let them?
(I have my own answer to this question but I want to know yours.)
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Well, don't let all the research showing how much lower instances of drunk driving and binge drinking are in countries with less draconian drinking laws impact your opinion one bit. Not that you would... we all know how much you abhor facts.
This point always gets made in drinking age threads. The truth is a little more complicated. In France and Italy, very little binge drinking. In Britain and Russia, things are much, much worse than the US. I would suggest that the latter two are more believable models for what would happen here with a lower drinking limit.
The truth is that lowering the drinking age to 18 won't eliminate underage consumption; it will move that consumption back to high school, which is what happened in the U.S. prior to the 21 limit. At that age binge drinking has significant consequences for brain development.
My solution is this: make it legal for anyone 18 and up to drink, and allow them to purchase individual, open drinks as in bars or restaurants. Make it illegal for anyone under 22 to buy closed containers of alcohol.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Most people in college, which is where a lot of binge drinking happens, don't have to drive to get to a bar. Anyway, they could still just go to parties. It's just that the alcohol would have to be supplied by someone 22 or older.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Most people in college, which is where a lot of binge drinking happens, don't have to drive to get to a bar. Anyway, they could still just go to parties. It's just that the alcohol would have to be supplied by someone 22 or older.
Which doesn't really solve anything and is just a legally dubious as the current setup. You're old enough to be considered a legal adult with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, except when it comes to liquor. You foolish child.
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
That's a rental agency policy, not a law. Some places do let you rent at 21.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Most people in college, which is where a lot of binge drinking happens, don't have to drive to get to a bar. Anyway, they could still just go to parties. It's just that the alcohol would have to be supplied by someone 22 or older.
Which doesn't really solve anything and is just a legally dubious as the current setup. You're old enough to be considered a legal adult with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, except when it comes to liquor. You foolish child.
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
....finally I can say my state isn't fucked up. You do indeed pay out the ass for insurance but you can rent a car under age 25 in NY.
The drinking age should never be lowered. I think the drinking age in the UK should be raised to 21 for definite, It's shows pretty strongly that the drinking atmosphere of the UK is pretty appalling
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
That's a rental agency policy, not a law. Some places do let you rent at 21.
I know, I just like to bitch about it. Next year it won't matter as much to me, but it'll still be stupid.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Most people in college, which is where a lot of binge drinking happens, don't have to drive to get to a bar. Anyway, they could still just go to parties. It's just that the alcohol would have to be supplied by someone 22 or older.
Which doesn't really solve anything and is just a legally dubious as the current setup. You're old enough to be considered a legal adult with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, except when it comes to liquor. You foolish child.
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
I guess I just don't find that a terribly compelling argument. All the things you're allowed to do at 18 have no bearing on what you should be allowed to do at 18.
The difference between what I'm suggesting and the status quo is that it's enforceable. College students can drink, relieving administrators from the burden of enforcing an impossible rule, but high school seniors won't be able to buy alcohol for sophomores.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
have you been to rural america?
there's lots of it
So you are saying we should lower the voting age down below the drive age as well?
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
have you been to rural america?
there's lots of it
So you are saying we should lower the voting age down below the drive age as well?
nnnnnnno I'm saying "public transit!" is not really valid for most places in America
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
have you been to rural america?
there's lots of it
So you are saying we should lower the voting age down below the drive age as well?
nnnnnnno I'm saying "public transit!" is not really valid for most places in America
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
have you been to rural america?
there's lots of it
So you are saying we should lower the voting age down below the drive age as well?
nnnnnnno I'm saying "public transit!" is not really valid for most places in America
I guess that's why he mentioned zoning laws as well!
actually, y'know, can you define small town for me, in population terms? Like, what you'd consider too small for a non-school bus service to be viable?
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Most people in college, which is where a lot of binge drinking happens, don't have to drive to get to a bar. Anyway, they could still just go to parties. It's just that the alcohol would have to be supplied by someone 22 or older.
Which doesn't really solve anything and is just a legally dubious as the current setup. You're old enough to be considered a legal adult with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, except when it comes to liquor. You foolish child.
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
I guess I just don't find that a terribly compelling argument. All the things you're allowed to do at 18 have no bearing on what you should be allowed to do at 18.
Except that 18 has become the determined age for legal adulthood. If you want to shift all of that up to 21 as well or ban alcohol altogether then at the very least you aren't being hypocritical, but otherwise there is no sound basis for preventing adults from making personal decisions on legally allowed substances.
The difference between what I'm suggesting and the status quo is that it's enforceable. College students can drink, relieving administrators from the burden of enforcing an impossible rule, but high school seniors won't be able to buy alcohol for sophomores.
Yes, but you are basically taking the tack that the problem is with issues over enforcement rather than the very basis of the prohibition itself.
Isn't forcing new inexperienced irresponsible drinkers to drive somewhere to drink kinda not good.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
have you been to rural america?
there's lots of it
So you are saying we should lower the voting age down below the drive age as well?
nnnnnnno I'm saying "public transit!" is not really valid for most places in America
I guess that's why he mentioned zoning laws as well!
actually, y'know, can you define small town for me, in population terms? Like, what you'd consider too small for a non-school bus service to be viable?
~83% of the US population lives in what the Census considers to be a metropolitan area. ~54% in a metropolitan area of greater than 1 million. I believe it requires a population in the 'urban core' of 50,000 people.
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PasserbyeI am much older than you.in Beach CityRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
The drinking age in France is 14, if I remember correctly, and loosely inforced at that. I can remember 10 year old kids going down for baguettes and a bottle of wine on an errand from their mom around dinner time, at least in Paris. I also can't remember any instances of college or highschool age binge drinking there. When alcohol is considered just something you do for dinner and with friends (not to get drunk) by a society, it generally works out better.
It's also how I grew up with alcohol - a little watered-down wine at dinner starting around 12 or 13, a little champagne at the New Years party. Just to enjoy the flavor, not to get drunk, or even tipsy. As a result, I knew what I was comfortable with by the time I got into university and never had any binge drinking problems.
Well, don't let all the research showing how much lower instances of drunk driving and binge drinking are in countries with less draconian drinking laws impact your opinion one bit. Not that you would... we all know how much you abhor facts.
This point always gets made in drinking age threads. The truth is a little more complicated. In France and Italy, very little binge drinking. In Britain and Russia, things are much, much worse than the US. I would suggest that the latter two are more believable models for what would happen here with a lower drinking limit.
The truth is that lowering the drinking age to 18 won't eliminate underage consumption; it will move that consumption back to high school, which is what happened in the U.S. prior to the 21 limit. At that age binge drinking has significant consequences for brain development.
My solution is this: make it legal for anyone 18 and up to drink, and allow them to purchase individual, open drinks as in bars or restaurants. Make it illegal for anyone under 22 to buy closed containers of alcohol.
When you talk about alcohol consumption in high school here there is an "ed" at the end of your "happen" as if it is a thing that was once an institution but no longer is. I submit that that is absurd.
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Appalling how?
Also consider that at 18 we believe they're mature enough to have a hand in electing a new President for the United States. Though I guess with drunk driving, consumption of alcohol can be a life or death issue.
So is the Army.
When I was 13 I was doing significant volunteer work downtown. Where was my car?
Well, don't let all the research showing how much lower instances of drunk driving and binge drinking are in countries with less draconian drinking laws impact your opinion one bit. Not that you would... we all know how much you abhor facts.
A loser who is a poor student, which most of the people I knew were.
Here the drinking age is 18/19 (it's 18 in Quebec and 19 in Ontario, but Quebec is about 15 minutes from the middle of downtown) and it's fine. I really think that the drinking age should be lowered to a year before kids go off to university. Then in that year you can responsibly drink and get yourself home to your parents, learn what your limits are, and learn about the kind of drinking you like to do. Having to do that all at university, illegally so you have to hide it, with no adult supervisor and nobody to really call on if something goes wrong? No wonder kids are drinking themselves to death.
That said, I went to the states when I was 20 when I had been legally drinking for around 2 years and I thought it was rather ludicrous that I wasn't even allowed into the liquor store.
Also raising the drivers license age is retarded. So is limiting passengers, like they tried to do here. Roughly 20-25% of the population of both the US and Canada live in rural areas where shit like walking and public transportation are not an option. These kids need to be working at 16 and they need cars.
And actually, in Illinois at least, you can start to work at 15. Not to mention that you only get a handshake with your driver's license, and not a free car.
Special, what does that have to do with people who aren't drunks?
Make alcohol even more forbidden and people will just drink more. Being over 21 doesn't stop you being a drunken dick.
There are big social issues here. Middle class kids have endless access to alcohol, drugs and partying and still do fine at life; poorer kids have less access to all of it and still tend to end up doing abysmally. Raising the age limit on alcohol to 21 would do nothing to deal with these.
Were I in charge I'd either do one of two things: Allow kids to drink stuff below some arbitrary-but-low percentage, like 1% or whatever, and hey, beer is no longer forbidden, everyone gets used to drinking in moderation whilst young, and we help deal with Britain's ridiculous binge drinking issue; Or ban it completely and keep everyone in line by legalising a bunch of other drugs. I'm sure the pharmaceutical industry has a whole cupboard full of drugs that make people euphoric but still fairly sensible, calm and coherent that they would dearly love to be able to sell to Britain's drug-hooked masses.
I remember reading a history book on 13th century England. One member of the clergy is down for having remarked that England would be the best place on Earth if everyone wasn't so damn drunk the whole time (or words to that effect). Bugger all has changed in 800 years.
The drinking age should be lowered to 18 because keeping it at 21 is unenforceable and only puts 18-21 year olds in situations that encourage irresponsible drinking.
More or less, yeah.
I think it should be closer to 14/16, but yeah.
Ideally I think it should be harder for everybody to get a license, but with the crappy state of public transit in our country I don't think that's feasible.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
It is. If "dying for your country" or any variant thereof is included in an argument you can usually expect it to be asinine.
A better argument is this: can you say that all people in a certain age group (18-21) are overwhelmingly not mature enough to handle alcohol safely but are mature enough to carry the American flag into another country, into battle, handling a rifle, or a plane, or a tank, or casualties, and follow orders (relatively) safely and correctly and professionally, without compromising the country's mission or causing collateral damage or any other of a very large number of disasters that can easily result from being put in such a position?
Yes, so let's force the "legal adults" to take hide their immature drunkenness away from more mature elements that would encourage moderation. That'll learn em.
It really is ludicrous. My younger sister was yelled at by a store clerk for carrying a bottle of wine among other groceries while shopping with my dad once. I mean, seriously? Do we really need to be placing this much importance on alcohol?
Well, "personal freedom" and "Fighting for one's country" do have very little to do with each other.
...No, they have everything to do with each other. The reason we don't let 18-year-olds drink is also much of the reason we don't let 15-year-olds fight wars: their inability, or perceived inability, to do so safely.
By this logic our reaction to teenage car accidents should be to not let anyone drive on public roads until they're 21, make sure the first time they get behind the wheel is in an illegal street race, and then hand everyone keys on their 21st birthday with no other preparation and hope for the best.
If you make sure the only exposure people have to something is in illegal and abusive situations while denying them any access to it in responsible settings right up until you open the flood gates, amazingly enough bad things will happen. I appreciate that America is a relatively fucked up place where people tend to knee jerk in the directions of punitive reactions and "protecting teh children!" but for god's sake, there are literally exactly analogous societies that show when you don't make it a huge taboo and overact about how important it is, people act like adults when dealing with alcohol.
I think it should be lowered to 18, simply because no-one I have ever encountered, ever, has given me a good reason why I should be allowed to join the military at 17(?!) but have to wait 4 years to be able to drink. No one has. Ever.
Bad excuses include:
"Well you could overdrink and then you wouldn't be mission capable blargle blargle blargle" (Disregarding any of my over-21 coworkers could do that as well, 1. you're not allowed to drink, under any circumstances, whilst on duty, 2. going on duty drunk is against the UCMJ and is some serious fucking shit if they catch you, 3. you're not allowed to drink, under any circumstances, whilst deployed)
"Being under 21 you're more prone to driving drunk blargle blargle blargle" (That has nothing to do with drinking, that has everything to do with having poor decision-making capabilities and not being able to have a DD or some shit. Making drinking under 21 illegal doesn't magically reduce the rates of DUIs, and anyone who thinks that is retarded.)
Reasons why it fucking should be legalized:
1. No one sane can legitimately argue that I'm mature enough to defend this county, but not mature enough to drink responsibly out of uniform, when I'm not deployed
2. That rule, as applies to the military, is a fucking joke. No one follows it, I can and have gotten quite wasted whilst under 21. So what's the fucking point of having it? There is none, because it has no teeth and it's just feel-good legislation
I just hate the taboo culture of the US. Parents keep over-protecting their kids, trying to sanitize them from the filthy evil world, instead of preparing them, so that when the parents finally do have to let go and let the kid do their own thing. They're just simply not ready for freedom and responsibility and they usually over do it on things like drinking and that's when bad shit happens.
I was living with my aunt and uncle during the last two years of high school (never knew my dad and my mom had a mental breakdown so my aunt and uncle took over) and my uncle would occasionally let me have a beer. I was at that point of my life though where I thought beer tasted horrible (or maybe it was because my uncle didn't drink nothing but Bud...who knows)
Once I got to college, I had complete access to any alcohol I wanted, so of course I got wasted a few times, and eventually acquired a taste for beer and hard liquor. Either I just simply wasn't that adventurous or I just got the whole taboo about alcohol out of my system early, but by the time I did turn 21...I just never felt the need to go do a bar crawl because it was just such a non-issue to me.
To me it's just an issue of being prepared. Regardless of how a parent feels about alcohol, they need to prepare their kids for the reality of it and IMO, that means eliminating the taboo and the whole "woo I'm being rebellious because I'm drinking underage" mentality instead of sheltering and sanitizing kids from it. The whole alcohol thing just needs to be de-mystified for kids. My uncle did right by me IMO and let me drink in a way so that he could control it. Thanks to that, I know what it does to me and I know how much I can tolerate so that even when I do feel like getting wasted, I can at least plan ahead and make sure I don't have to drive so that the only stupid thing I can do is socially.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
One has to do with following orders and the other has to do with being able to do what you want. They are different from each other and no wonder.
We don't let 15 year old go to war inhumane/immoral to train 15 year olds to kill for the military, "safety" has little to do with it. The difference between 18 year old drinking and 21 year old drinking is not a moral issue.
When considering safety, I think we can agree that unsupervised underage binge drinking is way, way, less safe than 18 year olds being able to drink in bars and openly, while being under the same scrutiny from peers and the law about not being a drunk asshole in public.
I have, a few times.
But more often it's people who are much, much older than the drinking age (late 20s and up). I don't know what it is about this upper-class suburban life, but it really just chews people up and strips them of their common sense.
I was an over-night guy at a cornerstore/pharmacy, so I was always around at last call. I grew so disgusted by it that I eventually just quit.
Why is it immoral or inhumane to train a 15 year old to kill for the military?
If the 15 year old wants to do it, why not let them?
(I have my own answer to this question but I want to know yours.)
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This point always gets made in drinking age threads. The truth is a little more complicated. In France and Italy, very little binge drinking. In Britain and Russia, things are much, much worse than the US. I would suggest that the latter two are more believable models for what would happen here with a lower drinking limit.
The truth is that lowering the drinking age to 18 won't eliminate underage consumption; it will move that consumption back to high school, which is what happened in the U.S. prior to the 21 limit. At that age binge drinking has significant consequences for brain development.
My solution is this: make it legal for anyone 18 and up to drink, and allow them to purchase individual, open drinks as in bars or restaurants. Make it illegal for anyone under 22 to buy closed containers of alcohol.
Which is why I'd prefer the drinking age be lower than the driving age so as to let people learn how to hold their liquor before they can hold the steering wheel of several tons of steel moving at speed.
Though the easier solution for this would actually be improved zoning laws and expanded public transit. There's no real reason for places that serve alcohol to be at the outskirts of a town and not easily accessible by bus. Especially after last call. Designated drivers are always a good idea, but a designated stumble in the right direction/bus schedule reader is better.
Most people in college, which is where a lot of binge drinking happens, don't have to drive to get to a bar. Anyway, they could still just go to parties. It's just that the alcohol would have to be supplied by someone 22 or older.
Which doesn't really solve anything and is just a legally dubious as the current setup. You're old enough to be considered a legal adult with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, except when it comes to liquor. You foolish child.
I also hate that you can't rent a car until you turn 25. Pay out the ass for insurance fees? I can understand that, but I'm 18. Legally I can run a car rental company. And yet you won't let me take out your shitty Ford.
That's a rental agency policy, not a law. Some places do let you rent at 21.
....finally I can say my state isn't fucked up. You do indeed pay out the ass for insurance but you can rent a car under age 25 in NY.
I know, I just like to bitch about it. Next year it won't matter as much to me, but it'll still be stupid.
I guess I just don't find that a terribly compelling argument. All the things you're allowed to do at 18 have no bearing on what you should be allowed to do at 18.
The difference between what I'm suggesting and the status quo is that it's enforceable. College students can drink, relieving administrators from the burden of enforcing an impossible rule, but high school seniors won't be able to buy alcohol for sophomores.
have you been to rural america?
there's lots of it
So you are saying we should lower the voting age down below the drive age as well?
nnnnnnno I'm saying "public transit!" is not really valid for most places in America
Places no, people...not so much no.
I guess that's why he mentioned zoning laws as well!
actually, y'know, can you define small town for me, in population terms? Like, what you'd consider too small for a non-school bus service to be viable?
Except that 18 has become the determined age for legal adulthood. If you want to shift all of that up to 21 as well or ban alcohol altogether then at the very least you aren't being hypocritical, but otherwise there is no sound basis for preventing adults from making personal decisions on legally allowed substances.
Yes, but you are basically taking the tack that the problem is with issues over enforcement rather than the very basis of the prohibition itself.
~83% of the US population lives in what the Census considers to be a metropolitan area. ~54% in a metropolitan area of greater than 1 million. I believe it requires a population in the 'urban core' of 50,000 people.
It's also how I grew up with alcohol - a little watered-down wine at dinner starting around 12 or 13, a little champagne at the New Years party. Just to enjoy the flavor, not to get drunk, or even tipsy. As a result, I knew what I was comfortable with by the time I got into university and never had any binge drinking problems.
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When you talk about alcohol consumption in high school here there is an "ed" at the end of your "happen" as if it is a thing that was once an institution but no longer is. I submit that that is absurd.