I wouldn't call Batman an enabler anymore than the GCPD, Arkham Staff, and government of whatever state Gotham is in are enablers. Ultimately, he's right about it not being his place to decide who lives or dies.
That said, there are times when it's necessary to kill as a matter of public safety, and in those moments any sane person would be morally required to take a life. Frankly, the only difference between Wonder Woman and most heroes is that she's been placed in one of those situations and the other characters haven't. I don't know why DC Editorial made things happen that way, but in any case I don't think they were right to have the other characters hold WW's decision against her.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
He shouldn't kill, but shit, at some point the Joker constantly escaping Arkham should result in putting him somewhere else in the country/world, in a glass box like Magneto in the X-Men movie.
Superman skirts that issue by being fast enough to respond to most things.
Wonder Woman kills the one guy who can control Superman, and she was ruined over it. And I wonder if that was more Rucka or Johns, really. Because it was stupid.
The movie explained the outfit well, and I think to remove the Patriotic elements would also remove the Wonder Woman elements. I'm fine with the bikini, I find the metal and armor and stuff fairly retarded. "only magic hurts me (sometimes again, depending on writer), i'll cover myself in bulky armor for the hell of it.'
I do agree that she needs a definitive powerset. And I totally see why she was chosen as part of the Trinity, because despite the lack of feature films, she is instantly recognizable to even non-comic fans from like the last 3-4 generations.
Wonder Woman is in trinity because she's the most famous superhero with a vagina. Who isn't a copy of a male superhero.
She absolutely needs to be basically destroyed and remade. Her costume makes no sense, her powers make no sense, and she has no defined personality - and when someone DOES try to define it, it makes no sense. She has no backstory to speak of, no real reason for what she's doing.
Basically, she needs to have her character developed, because she doesn't really have one. She doesn't have a real personality, or flaws, or goals, or anything like that.
Wonder Woman is in trinity because she's the most famous superhero with a vagina. Who isn't a copy of a male superhero.
This comment seems so mind-numbingly stupid to me. The "trinity" isn't some new thing DC just cooked up, they are historically the three most popular characters.
Given how successful the property has been in popular culture for a long period of time, it'd be a huge mistake to scrap everything just to make her origin convenient. Especially so if you're speaking from a standpoint of making her more inviting to new people; they will recognize the classic star-spangled WW, not generic greek warrior lady.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Wonder Woman is in trinity because she's the most famous superhero with a vagina. Who isn't a copy of a male superhero.
She absolutely needs to be basically destroyed and remade. Her costume makes no sense, her powers make no sense, and she has no defined personality - and when someone DOES try to define it, it makes no sense. She has no backstory to speak of, no real reason for what she's doing.
Basically, she needs to have her character developed, because she doesn't really have one. She doesn't have a real personality, or flaws, or goals, or anything like that.
The thing is she did, it's just been ground under with a lot of stupid bullshit. The old S_D had a series called When Wondy Was Awesome, describing her post crisis canon, and it's pretty cool. But it seems like everything since, say, somewhat before Infinite Crisis, everything written about her has been inconsistent and not all that great, not to mention shit like Amazons Attack.
I agree that she needs a better costume, as her current one is terrible, but it looks like Simone is doing her best to get her to wear something else.
Honestly, her other problem is that she has no set famous rank of villains, from nemeses down to obscure. Supes has Lex, Zod, Brainiac, Metallo,etc. Batman has Joker, Two-face, Catwoman, Ventriloquist. Wonder Woman has... I know Circe and Cheetah, but that's really about it.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
WW just needs to go away for a year or two, let Simone do what she needs to to streamline her character (making her only have powers in WW form is stupid). Simone and Lopresti are a good team, they just were saddled with Heinberg's story and the stupid Amazons Attack story.
DC needs to treat her like Marvel did with Thor. Get her off the table, build up some desire to see her again, then come back and not let a fucking writer who doesn't care about comics delay her into irrelevancy again
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
WW just needs to go away for a year or two, let Simone do what she needs to to streamline her character (making her only have powers in WW form is stupid). Simone and Lopresti are a good team, they just were saddled with Heinberg's story and the stupid Amazons Attack story.
DC needs to treat her like Marvel did with Thor. Get her off the table, build up some desire to see her again, then come back and not let a fucking writer who doesn't care about comics delay her into irrelevancy again
Seriously, Simone's biggest problem right now is that she's respecting Heinberg's work. Although it does look like she's on the verge of excising it. And Simone's run has basically been pretty awesome.
It's weird that the most outwardly feminine character in comics somehow comes across so...less so. Because forced shit never feels right.
DC just needs to stop with the gimmicks, stop with the forcing, and just fucking go with it already. Even Gail Simone's stuff feels like it's hung up and trying too hard (to me). Ms. Marvel is more Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman these days. That shit should say something.
But I could be completely wrong.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
It's weird that the most outwardly feminine character in comics somehow comes across so...less so. Because forced shit never feels right.
DC just needs to stop with the gimmicks, stop with the forcing, and just fucking go with it already. Even Gail Simone's stuff feels like it's hung up and trying too hard (to me). Ms. Marvel is more Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman these days. That shit should say something.
But I could be completely wrong.
What don't you like about Simone's stuff? It looks like she's getting rid of Heinberg's shit soon.
(Yes, the design for Genocide is frigging ridiculous. Everyone knows)
It's weird that the most outwardly feminine character in comics somehow comes across so...less so. Because forced shit never feels right.
DC just needs to stop with the gimmicks, stop with the forcing, and just fucking go with it already. Even Gail Simone's stuff feels like it's hung up and trying too hard (to me). Ms. Marvel is more Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman these days. That shit should say something.
But I could be completely wrong.
What don't you like about Simone's stuff? It looks like she's getting rid of Heinberg's shit soon.
(Yes, the design for Genocide is frigging ridiculous. Everyone knows)
I don't know man. I'm engaged to a very strong, very attractive Puerto Rican woman. And by proxy all of her sisters (those that know what I'm talking about, please pray for me). So that's my barometer for "strong female in today's society". Right or wrong, there it is. And then I look at other comics featuring a female lead (along with other literature I've read featuring woman leads). And even Gail's stuff just feels disingeniousness and forced.
I feel like it's weighed down by crap that is no fault of her own but crap that she nonetheless must process/deal with. Again, just my opinion, and it doesn't feel right.
I don't think I'm articulating my point correctly. I'll try again later.
Can you give examples of what you feel is disingenuous and forced? It's hard to have an idea of what specifically is at issue without have an example at hand.
Can you give examples of what you feel is disingenuous and forced? It's hard to have an idea of what specifically is at issue without have an example at hand.
I'm just expressing my opinion second hand, if you will, with no source material to cite. Which is why I'd rather reiterate after(if ever) I get the chance to dig up whatever the fuck it is I'm referring to. About to dive into the boxes shortly.
I just know that my initial reactions were those of disbelief and chuckles.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
I mean, the worst shit is the spy stuff and the romance bullshit, and that was foisted on her, and it looks like it might be going away very soon.
I mean, the worst shit is the spy stuff and the romance bullshit, and that was foisted on her, and it looks like it might be going away very soon.
I like the stuff with Tom and Etta because it makes some sense of her involvement in the world at large, rather than being another insular Amazon. However, the alter-ego is just a drag I agree, and Gail already nixed that from the looks of it.
And regarding her being feminine and strong, I think between the way Simone writes her, and the way Lopresti draws her, she comes off as being one of the least stereotypical female characters in comics.
I don't know why people seem to think that you would have to keep the color scheme to have it be recognizable as WW. The red, white, and blue is part of the problem.
(If you don't believe me, just look through the 'judges' on that PR link.)
(Yes, the design for Genocide is frigging ridiculous. Everyone knows)
The very first thing I thought of when I saw the Genocide costume was that someone was playing with the City of Heroes/Villains character creator. Genocide looks exactly like something you can cook up in CoX. I think the exact eye-plate with spikes is an option in the character creator.
Diana will always have an issue because, in this male-dominated comic industry, she will always be played as the hot-feminine character. Sure, it seems DC is trying to reconsitute a sense of purpose for the character with this whole Genocide-stole-my-lasso-and-you-have-no-idea-how-bad-that-is-for-the-world shtick but at the end of the day she is eye candy. Hotness sells, even if the story is the suck.
Why send in the Princess when we could just have Supes run over there and square it away? Almost all the threat-based heroes ranks are filled.... Batman, Superman, the GLs, Flash, etc. all these guys fill a specific power-set/villian hierarchy where Diana is a powerhouse with little actual purpose.
Sure, she is supposed to be a badass melee-esque warrior but she is hardly ever cast in that role.
On a side note... I do love how writers remember the bracelets and then throw something ridiculous in there - like her deflecting a missile instead of just catching and chucking it where she wants it to go. Heh, remember when bullets and bracelets sounded so cool... I guess that stuff goes by the way side when you are invulnerable (now).
You are way, way off the mark about what her solo book is like right now. "Hotness" has nothing to do with the current run, and to use an earlier comparison, Aaron Lopresti has drawn her in a downright modest fashion compared to characters like Ms. Marvel.
Yeah, Lopresti is a really good artist. I've enjoyed his work a lot on the Wonder Woman book. I hope he sticks around for a while because he gives the book exactly the look it needs.
Wonder Woman's biggest problem is probably all the horrible inconsistency. She has or has had everything a comic book hero really needs, but it all gets ripped up from under her every five minutes.
Her villains, her sidekicks, her supporting cast, can all be saved with a good story or two by a capable author. Most of 'em are fine characters written badly.
But Diana doesn't have the stable ground to stand on that Supes and Bats have; after periods of All-New, All-Different, or All-Terrible, they have basics to get back to. I don't imagine I'm spoiling any surprise by saying that eventually Bruce'll take back the cowl and Clark'll be back on Earth. Diana doesn't have any basics, though. She's had lots of things that could and should be basics, but then something like Infinite Crisis or a writer wanting to leave his mark and change everything forever shows up and suddenly Themyscira's gone or Ares is a supervillian again or now Diana's a space pirate or...
The solution is incredibly simple and hilariously impossible: set up a status quo and don't change it for a decade or so. Try and pick one that isn't self-defeating (like, say, giving the once-goddess of Truth, whose weapon channels Truth, and whose greatest victories come from careful application of Truth, a secret identity).
(Her costume, while frustrating, is ultimately superficial. You all know she'd be back in the bathing suit sooner or later anyway.)
you know what would be a good start? How about having one freaking crisis where she doesn't end up the villain.
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You are way, way off the mark about what her solo book is like right now. "Hotness" has nothing to do with the current run, and to use an earlier comparison, Aaron Lopresti has drawn her in a downright modest fashion compared to characters like Ms. Marvel.
Its probably my fault in not explaining exactly what I meant by that... I am not saying anything about her specific look but pointing directly at the fact she is a female character and, I daresay, one of the most recognizable ones ever. Sure, Ms. Marvel is more scantily clad but it is not about the costume so much as the role. WW fills the female iconic character model - you do not see little girls playing dress up as Flash, right?
Second point... is it is not about what he book is doing right now because that is just a writer away from change. The idea of the confused icon spans more than the current run it speaks towards the role and status of the character in the DCU.
You are way, way off the mark about what her solo book is like right now. "Hotness" has nothing to do with the current run, and to use an earlier comparison, Aaron Lopresti has drawn her in a downright modest fashion compared to characters like Ms. Marvel.
Its probably my fault in not explaining exactly what I meant by that... I am not saying anything about her specific look but pointing directly at the fact she is a female character and, I daresay, one of the most recognizable ones ever. Sure, Ms. Marvel is more scantily clad but it is not about the costume so much as the role. WW fills the female iconic character model - you do not see little girls playing dress up as Flash, right?
Second point... is it is not about what he book is doing right now because that is just a writer away from change. The idea of the confused icon spans more than the current run it speaks towards the role and status of the character in the DCU.
DC seems extremely interested in granting Wonder Woman some depth beyond just being "eye-candy" considering they put Gail Simone in charge. She's just about the most vocal opponent of stereotypical depictions of women in comics right now.
And how else do you propose the character be changed for the better besides having the right creative team take the reigns (which has already happened)?
The fact that her power levels aren't well defined is a big deal. If it were concretely defined, where would you guys like to see it?
I like the bracelets, so I imagine her having a high level of resistance, but not Supes-level invulnerability. (Like a bullet wouldn't kill her, but it'd draw blood and it'd hurt. Enough bullets would kill her.)
I don't like the jet, so I like a WW that can fly, but not at like Mach3 or anything. I also like her having lightning-fast reflexes so that she can deflect bullets and stuff, but I don't like her being able to run/vibrate/spin around fires to put them out Flash-style. I imagine her flight/speed maxing out at a couple of hundred miles an hour or so.
I also think that may be a reason why she doesn't have a defined rogues gallery. Since her powers aren't defined, it's not apparent why or if a villain is actually a threat.
Some questions from Newsarama to Dan Didio about Wonder Woman:
--
Newsarama: A Wonder Woman question – the Superman titles have a long-form story and multiple titles going on. The same for Batman. Yet, the third part of the “DC Trinity” has her own series only, and has just stepped down from the Justice League, which was her only regular appearance outside of her own title. What do you think can be done with Wonder Woman to boost her importance with readers and the market, and get her to Superman and Batman levels of buzz and excitement?
Didio: Right now, the only way we can improve her prominence and importance in the DC Universe and see her grow beyond a single title, which is something that I’m sure people know that I want to see occur – the only way we can do it and control is is to go out there and tell the best stories possible, and Gail is doing that for us. I hope that more people recognize that and support it. Gail’s creating a wonderful cast within the series now with the addition of the male Amazons and Achilles. There’s a lot of great drama that’s coming up, and from our point, we hope that a lot of people will start going back and giving Wonder Woman another look.
It’s a question that has plagued Wonder Woman for an extended period of time, and it’s my hope that with the Rise of the Olympian storyline, we created something that people can look at as way to look in and see what’s going on with Wonder Woman and get hooked.
Newsarama: A question that would apply in light of current discussions that we had last time with Flash – has there been any discussion of re-numbering her series with the legacy numbering in order to boost her series numbers up to the same status as an Action or Detective level?
Didio: No – no plans on that at all. This is our third real run on a title for her, so I don’t see the real need to do that. I don’t think that there’s anyone who doesn’t know that Wonder Woman has been around for an extended period of time, just like Superman and Batman. I don’t think the numbering makes a difference on that one.
--
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
Ok, I am coming from an uneducated place in terms of the comics, but can someone enlighten me as to why there are male Amazons?
I'm still hoping that Simone writes the Manazons like the Spartans in 300 and turns the whole arc into a criticism of Frank Miller and that whole hyper-masculine school of writing.
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That said, there are times when it's necessary to kill as a matter of public safety, and in those moments any sane person would be morally required to take a life. Frankly, the only difference between Wonder Woman and most heroes is that she's been placed in one of those situations and the other characters haven't. I don't know why DC Editorial made things happen that way, but in any case I don't think they were right to have the other characters hold WW's decision against her.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Superman skirts that issue by being fast enough to respond to most things.
Wonder Woman kills the one guy who can control Superman, and she was ruined over it. And I wonder if that was more Rucka or Johns, really. Because it was stupid.
I do agree that she needs a definitive powerset. And I totally see why she was chosen as part of the Trinity, because despite the lack of feature films, she is instantly recognizable to even non-comic fans from like the last 3-4 generations.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Fuck, you mean I could have created Wonder Woman too?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
She absolutely needs to be basically destroyed and remade. Her costume makes no sense, her powers make no sense, and she has no defined personality - and when someone DOES try to define it, it makes no sense. She has no backstory to speak of, no real reason for what she's doing.
Basically, she needs to have her character developed, because she doesn't really have one. She doesn't have a real personality, or flaws, or goals, or anything like that.
Given how successful the property has been in popular culture for a long period of time, it'd be a huge mistake to scrap everything just to make her origin convenient. Especially so if you're speaking from a standpoint of making her more inviting to new people; they will recognize the classic star-spangled WW, not generic greek warrior lady.
I agree that she needs a better costume, as her current one is terrible, but it looks like Simone is doing her best to get her to wear something else.
Honestly, her other problem is that she has no set famous rank of villains, from nemeses down to obscure. Supes has Lex, Zod, Brainiac, Metallo,etc. Batman has Joker, Two-face, Catwoman, Ventriloquist. Wonder Woman has... I know Circe and Cheetah, but that's really about it.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
DC needs to treat her like Marvel did with Thor. Get her off the table, build up some desire to see her again, then come back and not let a fucking writer who doesn't care about comics delay her into irrelevancy again
DC just needs to stop with the gimmicks, stop with the forcing, and just fucking go with it already. Even Gail Simone's stuff feels like it's hung up and trying too hard (to me). Ms. Marvel is more Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman these days. That shit should say something.
But I could be completely wrong.
(Yes, the design for Genocide is frigging ridiculous. Everyone knows)
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I don't know man. I'm engaged to a very strong, very attractive Puerto Rican woman. And by proxy all of her sisters (those that know what I'm talking about, please pray for me). So that's my barometer for "strong female in today's society". Right or wrong, there it is. And then I look at other comics featuring a female lead (along with other literature I've read featuring woman leads). And even Gail's stuff just feels disingeniousness and forced.
I feel like it's weighed down by crap that is no fault of her own but crap that she nonetheless must process/deal with. Again, just my opinion, and it doesn't feel right.
I don't think I'm articulating my point correctly. I'll try again later.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I'm just expressing my opinion second hand, if you will, with no source material to cite. Which is why I'd rather reiterate after(if ever) I get the chance to dig up whatever the fuck it is I'm referring to. About to dive into the boxes shortly.
I just know that my initial reactions were those of disbelief and chuckles.
And regarding her being feminine and strong, I think between the way Simone writes her, and the way Lopresti draws her, she comes off as being one of the least stereotypical female characters in comics.
(If you don't believe me, just look through the 'judges' on that PR link.)
The very first thing I thought of when I saw the Genocide costume was that someone was playing with the City of Heroes/Villains character creator. Genocide looks exactly like something you can cook up in CoX. I think the exact eye-plate with spikes is an option in the character creator.
Why send in the Princess when we could just have Supes run over there and square it away? Almost all the threat-based heroes ranks are filled.... Batman, Superman, the GLs, Flash, etc. all these guys fill a specific power-set/villian hierarchy where Diana is a powerhouse with little actual purpose.
Sure, she is supposed to be a badass melee-esque warrior but she is hardly ever cast in that role.
On a side note... I do love how writers remember the bracelets and then throw something ridiculous in there - like her deflecting a missile instead of just catching and chucking it where she wants it to go. Heh, remember when bullets and bracelets sounded so cool... I guess that stuff goes by the way side when you are invulnerable (now).
Eh...
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DEVASTATION 2009
June 19-21st
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Wonder Woman's biggest problem is probably all the horrible inconsistency. She has or has had everything a comic book hero really needs, but it all gets ripped up from under her every five minutes.
Her villains, her sidekicks, her supporting cast, can all be saved with a good story or two by a capable author. Most of 'em are fine characters written badly.
But Diana doesn't have the stable ground to stand on that Supes and Bats have; after periods of All-New, All-Different, or All-Terrible, they have basics to get back to. I don't imagine I'm spoiling any surprise by saying that eventually Bruce'll take back the cowl and Clark'll be back on Earth. Diana doesn't have any basics, though. She's had lots of things that could and should be basics, but then something like Infinite Crisis or a writer wanting to leave his mark and change everything forever shows up and suddenly Themyscira's gone or Ares is a supervillian again or now Diana's a space pirate or...
The solution is incredibly simple and hilariously impossible: set up a status quo and don't change it for a decade or so. Try and pick one that isn't self-defeating (like, say, giving the once-goddess of Truth, whose weapon channels Truth, and whose greatest victories come from careful application of Truth, a secret identity).
(Her costume, while frustrating, is ultimately superficial. You all know she'd be back in the bathing suit sooner or later anyway.)
Its probably my fault in not explaining exactly what I meant by that... I am not saying anything about her specific look but pointing directly at the fact she is a female character and, I daresay, one of the most recognizable ones ever. Sure, Ms. Marvel is more scantily clad but it is not about the costume so much as the role. WW fills the female iconic character model - you do not see little girls playing dress up as Flash, right?
Second point... is it is not about what he book is doing right now because that is just a writer away from change. The idea of the confused icon spans more than the current run it speaks towards the role and status of the character in the DCU.
jedirobb@thetemplearcade.com
http://www.thetemplearcade.com
DEVASTATION 2009
June 19-21st
$10,000.00 in Guaranteed Prizes
http://www.devastationevent.com
And how else do you propose the character be changed for the better besides having the right creative team take the reigns (which has already happened)?
I like the bracelets, so I imagine her having a high level of resistance, but not Supes-level invulnerability. (Like a bullet wouldn't kill her, but it'd draw blood and it'd hurt. Enough bullets would kill her.)
I don't like the jet, so I like a WW that can fly, but not at like Mach3 or anything. I also like her having lightning-fast reflexes so that she can deflect bullets and stuff, but I don't like her being able to run/vibrate/spin around fires to put them out Flash-style. I imagine her flight/speed maxing out at a couple of hundred miles an hour or so.
I also think that may be a reason why she doesn't have a defined rogues gallery. Since her powers aren't defined, it's not apparent why or if a villain is actually a threat.
--
Newsarama: A Wonder Woman question – the Superman titles have a long-form story and multiple titles going on. The same for Batman. Yet, the third part of the “DC Trinity” has her own series only, and has just stepped down from the Justice League, which was her only regular appearance outside of her own title. What do you think can be done with Wonder Woman to boost her importance with readers and the market, and get her to Superman and Batman levels of buzz and excitement?
Didio: Right now, the only way we can improve her prominence and importance in the DC Universe and see her grow beyond a single title, which is something that I’m sure people know that I want to see occur – the only way we can do it and control is is to go out there and tell the best stories possible, and Gail is doing that for us. I hope that more people recognize that and support it. Gail’s creating a wonderful cast within the series now with the addition of the male Amazons and Achilles. There’s a lot of great drama that’s coming up, and from our point, we hope that a lot of people will start going back and giving Wonder Woman another look.
It’s a question that has plagued Wonder Woman for an extended period of time, and it’s my hope that with the Rise of the Olympian storyline, we created something that people can look at as way to look in and see what’s going on with Wonder Woman and get hooked.
Newsarama: A question that would apply in light of current discussions that we had last time with Flash – has there been any discussion of re-numbering her series with the legacy numbering in order to boost her series numbers up to the same status as an Action or Detective level?
Didio: No – no plans on that at all. This is our third real run on a title for her, so I don’t see the real need to do that. I don’t think that there’s anyone who doesn’t know that Wonder Woman has been around for an extended period of time, just like Superman and Batman. I don’t think the numbering makes a difference on that one.
--
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
Basically Zeus figured the Amazons were a lost cause and started a similar order that's made up of men.
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
Is it bad that this makes me sad because it is historically inaccurate? I know it's not anyway but still...
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation