I don't know about everyone else, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 400w PSU in a system I intend to game on. This is probably just me, as 400w could be technically enough, I'd still shoot for a 550w minimum.
I've worked on alot of HPs, and pretty much everyone i've seen has had an inferior PSU. I think the last one of their media center PCs I opened up had a 300w supply in it. HPs are also pretty cramped inside, upgrades would be more difficult than a comparable dell (not that I'm recommending Dells, though).
In my experience, Dells, HPs, and Gateways do not last more than 2 or 3 years before needing some kind of part replacement. I can not even begin to imagine the number of PSUs I've replaced or bad sticks of memory I've found in fairly new PCs from these brands.
I'd describe my technical knowledge as only slightly above average though, this information is all from experience doing lightweight PC repairs.
Some notes on this.
At work we have dell (desktops and workstations), apple (mac pro/power mac), hp (desktops and workstations), IBM (.nix workstations).
HP and Dell desktops are, like any OEM desktop, buy at your own risk. Their workstations tend to be a lot better built, the support is far better, and they don't ship with junk parts.
That budget Dell desktop is built like crap, a 7k+ workstation is not. Their XPS line seems to share some traits in build quality with their high end CAD stations and we haven't had any problem with them or HP.
All these companies make crappy computers for cheap, and all make fairly nice computers and charge you for them. As a buyer you should be aware of what you're shopping for.
I'd also warn heavily against gauging a PSU by wattage, it's amperage that really counts.
We have desktop PSU's blow out left and right regardless of brand, it's a never ending cycle. But on the workstations it almost NEVER happens (knock on wood).
Also some builds (ala shuttle) ship with extremely low wattage PSU's yet can feed the fastest components, better build quality.
I would also love to recommend HP. My current laptop is an HP, and its a freaking trooper. I have thrown this thing around, hit it into things, spilled on it, any kind of torture you can imagine basically. I press that power, and it jumps to life.
The specs aren't great, especially the graphics card, but considering the price I payed for it, with it being a laptop as well, I feel like I got a fair deal, especially with the support I can expect from them. The system worked perfectly out of the box, and I can't recommend HP's more at this time.
BTW on the PSU's, problem is that certain PSU manufacturers SAY their PSU's can take a certain amount of watts. Which in practice is NOT true. There are a few manufacterers like SeaSonic, Enermax, FSP, Antec that do hold their word.
Heh, I used to do support for HP and for the most part I'd agree with those recommending buying a computer from them. However, should you install some new parts on your own I'd keep quiet about that should you ever contact support. While you won't void the warranty in itself by doing so, should something break because of the custom parts the warranty/support packs won't cover it. I guess this same rule apply for most manufacturers though, so I suppose it wouldn't be much of an issue but it could be wise to keep it in mind
I also see some mention of PSU's, and in particular the post by tsmvengy about a Nvidia 8800GTX and 300W of power. Whatever you do, do not attempt to run that card on such low power! It will cause you all kinds of stability and performance issues under load. The card is less demanding that one would think, but I would not install it in anything with less than 500W (~400+ of the GTS version).
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ViscountalphaThe pen is mightier than the swordhttp://youtu.be/G_sBOsh-vyIRegistered Userregular
After 10 years of building rigs for myself and others, I'm planning on turning in my geek card and going back to ordering one from Dell (currently eyeing the XPS 710). It's been a while since I last built a system and I'd like some answers to get me up to speed. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to help me out. If it encourages more participation, I will write poems/battle raps on any topic to those who provide me with quality answers. Also, please stay tuned to this thread as I'll most likely come back after the initial responses with some follow-up questions.
Nothing too fancy, but something that will probably start breaking down before upgrades become necessary. My current system was built in 2002 and still is pretty decent with a SATA drive, DVD burner, Athlon XP 3200 and 1 GB of RAM. I've never had to upgrade it, and hopefully this next system will last just as long. Currently I don't do anything more demanding than playing WoW.
So, my number one priority is just having a reliable, no-hassle system that will keep reasonably cool and quiet, with just enough power to make older games and apps look good, and newer ones run OK with, say, medium settings. I know I can spend a lot less money, but I've always readily paid extra for peace of mind and this seems like an OK choice for me. If you have any suggestions, though, I'd love to hear them.
Find a local computer shop that has a decent rep and have them make it and support it. You won't be happy with any upgrading on premades. Dell, hp can occationally get alittle propriatary.
Other then that? newegg and do it yourself. You save a few hundred dollars doing it yourself, but a fool and his money are soon parted.
1) To be honest, I've heard a lot of crap when it comes to Dells, especially the pre-builts, being used for anything other than basic wordprocessing - the 'rents got one for themselves and at this point it acts like it's on the brink of a digital anneurism despite all kinds of maintainance and wiping the sucker several times.
5) If you're getting 2K for that (I'm guessing no monitor, seperate sound card, or things like that) then I'm honestly thinking you're getting ripped off. I plugged those into one of the designs over here and a whole kit with those specific items was only about $1600. To be honest, I'd reccomend them - I got my current PC from them back in 2005 and it's been running smooth as silk save for the occasional fan rattle from forgetting to clean out dust and the like and the natural hardware limitations due to me being a cheap bastard.
I would also recommend CyberPower. I priced out my parts on newegg and pricewatch, and the cyberpower pc with the same parts, assembled, tested, and with a warranty, was only about $50 more.
On top of that, it's been almost 2 years without a single crash or issue.
BTW on the PSU's, problem is that certain PSU manufacturers SAY their PSU's can take a certain amount of watts. Which in practice is NOT true. There are a few manufacterers like SeaSonic, Enermax, FSP, Antec that do hold their word.
The URL didn't keep your custom changes, so it just shows the base model. But, yeah, that case & motherboard is fucking awesome.
Shuttle's case cooling and motherboards are all very low power. I've still got the base 200W PSU in mine, I'm running 2 hard drives, a DVD drive, a Radeon X800 (with the extra HDD power connector), Athlon XP 3000+, and for what it counts a scanner powered off USB and I've had no power issues whatsoever.
I'd rather take half a day, save a bundle of money, and build my own rig then order a pre-built...
But he just wrote that that's exactly what he doesn't want to do... There is something to be said for having a single number to call for ANYTHING that goes wrong.
Personally, I second the Mac idea since it can play games fairly well booted into Windows. Apple's support is (in my experience) pretty good, and it's nice being able to either call someone on the phone or just bring your machine down to an Apple store.
But there is no option for upgrading video cards.
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DietarySupplementStill not approved by the FDADublin, OHRegistered Userregular
I'd rather take half a day, save a bundle of money, and build my own rig then order a pre-built...
But he just wrote that that's exactly what he doesn't want to do... There is something to be said for having a single number to call for ANYTHING that goes wrong.
Personally, I second the Mac idea since it can play games fairly well booted into Windows. Apple's support is (in my experience) pretty good, and it's nice being able to either call someone on the phone or just bring your machine down to an Apple store.
But there is no option for upgrading video cards.
Even if he's approaching the border of being a dick in his posts (yes, Whuppins, don't be a prick if you're asking for help... just state your problem, leave out the sarcasm), there's no reason for not considering it. He said so himself: he's several years "behind" in playing games. So why bother upgrading the card?
Logic has been casually tossed to the wind several times in this thread.
edit: And n'thly, there's no reason a Mac wouldn't make it to the "5 year mark" he made mention to.
I reserve the right to be a dick to whoever I want, for any reason I want.
That said, I was only being a dick to rook because he was being a dick to me (which, in turn, was caused by him misreading my posts). None of the dickishness was aimed in your or anyone else's direction.
Anyway, rook's advice has been informative, as has everyone else's. I had been moving away from Dell because it seemed I could save some money on a similar machine from HP, but that underpowered PSU is kind of irritating. If I ordered an HP I'd have to swap in (probably) a PSU and (at some point) a graphics card. This just bumps the price back up near where Dell's was, and it involves some of the DIY stuff that I was trying to avoid in the first place. I don't even know how easily these things can be done on HP's; I have far less experience with them as with Dells and the consensus in this thread seems mixed on the topic. I'd be more encouraged to get an HP if I knew that the swapping I had to do would be straightforward and not marred by proprietary...ness (propriety? That doesn't seem right...).
That Shuttle config page has me all hot and bothered. I customized a nice machine for about the same as the other places and kind of just stared at it. It looks really sweet, but isn't the point of going with a 'builder' that upgrades will be easy? I'm kind of intimidated by the square form factor. I want to rush back to the comfort of rectangles. I'm sure I'm wrong, though, and that one would be just as easy to upgrade as anything else. mausmalone, maybe you can fill me in on the pros and cons of Shuttle that you've experienced? Any idea what their support is like?
Oh, and Gateway is still around? I had no idea. I guess that's another place to look. Thanks for all the info; I'm still trying to figure all this out.
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DietarySupplementStill not approved by the FDADublin, OHRegistered Userregular
That Shuttle config page has me all hot and bothered. I customized a nice machine for about the same as the other places and kind of just stared at it. It looks really sweet, but isn't the point of going with a 'builder' that upgrades will be easy? I'm kind of intimidated by the square form factor. I want to rush back to the comfort of rectangles. I'm sure I'm wrong, though, and that one would be just as easy to upgrade as anything else. mausmalone, maybe you can fill me in on the pros and cons of Shuttle that you've experienced? Any idea what their support is like?
My brother built a shuttle PC a while ago, and it's actually pretty nice. True, the small form factor can be a pain to take apart and troubleshoot, but they are very quiet and very compact. Personally, they add too much "crap" to the case for my liking (look, if I wanted an SD slot or a Memory Stick Duo slot, I'd get an adapter).
The only one major downside I have with them is that many of the drivers that power the "in house" developed components are just that: in house. So you're at the mercy of the patches they put forth, and when. That said, when my brother did have a problem with his motherboard, they were nice enough to do an advanced replacement free of charge (at least, as long as they got the defective one back before a certain date).
Oh, and I know in previous generations they had some problems with double-slot video cards and internal real estate, but I guess they fixed that?
One thing to remember is that any prebuilt system will still fall foul of whatever local conditions you have to put up with. Just buying a PC from Dell or whoever doesn't stop dirt and dust clogging up the various heatsinks or fan bearings from wearing out.
I have a shuttle (3200xp oh snap!) and whilst I do dearly love it, they're not as quiet as you'd like to think they would be. They're also a complete bastard to maintain or upgrade (you literally have to take the entire thing apart if you want to clean anything on it or upgrade a bit of it.
Rook, these hoops that you have to jump through to upgrade/maintain your Shuttle, do they actually require advanced knowledge of PC hardware, or are they just a bitch to do? I could probably live with a Shuttle as long as I didn't have to do something drastic just to throw another gig of ram in or whatever.
Also, Gateway is looking really good, the best of the 'big 3' so far. I'm looking at an Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.86 GHz with 4 GB PC5300 DDR. Other stuff like Vista, a cheapo vid card, a CD/DVD+-RW, and a 250GB SATA are common to all 3 suppliers so I'm not worrying about them.
However, this build also includes several 'perks' that Dell and/or HP don't give you for free by default: A 9-in-1 memcard reader, 700W PSU (the only choice, I swear!), USB keyboard, modem, etc. Also, with the money I saved (see below) I was able to pick up some other nice items: In addition to bumping up to 4 GB of ram, I also added the extended 3-year parts/labor/on-site warranty and a fancy 80-dollar sound card (though that one might have been required, I'm not sure if the mobo has onboard sound). All that, including tax and shipping, comes to $1750, leaving me with $250 or so to shop for an upgraded vid card (and without having to shop for a PSU).
The potential downside is that I took over $1000 off the original price by downgrading from the default Core 2 Quad to the Core 2 Duo E6300. I understand that the E6300 is somewhat ghetto, but honestly, over a thousand dollars? The Quad had better make grilled cheese sandwiches and give handjobs for it to be worth that much more. Unfortunately, there is no 'middle ground' between the E6300 and the Quad, so I'm pretty much stuck with my 2 MB L2 cache and my 1.86 GHz. Assuming I just want to be able to play new-ish games -- not really make them shine -- is this acceptable, or a grave mistake?
Jesus, the one time that I'm trying to play with the Gateway site and it goes down: www.gateway.com gets you a blank page with the following: "The system is down for maintenance. Please try again later." Oh well, any thoughts while I'm waiting to get back in and play around some more?
Gateway really has some nice stuff to offer at good prices. Here's what I'm considering ordering:
Gateway® FX530XM
Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor E6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 4MB cache, non-HT) Operating System: Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium (32-bit) Memory: 2048MB 667MHz PC5300 Dual-Channel DDR2 SDRAM (2-1024MB modules) Hard Drive: 500GB 7200rpm Serial ATA II/300 hard drive w/ 8MB cache (2-250GB hard drives) Monitor: Gateway® 19" Widescreen High Definition LCD Display Optical Drive: 48x/32x/48x CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive Video: ATI x1300 Ultra Video Card with 128MB Dual DVI & TV-Out Media Card Reader: 9-in-1 Memory Card Reader Chassis: Gateway® 7-bay BTX tower case Keyboard: Gateway® Elite Multimedia Keyboard Modem: 56K PCI data/fax modem Motherboard: Intel® 975X Chipset with DDR2 and Intel® Core™ Duo support Power Supply: 700-Watt Power Supply Warranty: Desktop Value Plus Service Plan -- 3 year parts/ labor/ on-site/ 3 year technical support
(no speakers, no mouse, using mobo's onboard audio)
That's for $1,764.80 including tax and shipping.
A couple things to note:
- That setup includes a 19" widescreen LCD monitor for $40. I haven't mentioned this, but one of my needs is an LCD monitor to replace an old one that is failing on my wife's system. It's a totally separate issue, but this is a very good deal (the replacement monitor doesn't need to be anything special) and I figure it makes the overall package more attractive.
- The graphics card is even shittier than I've been talking about, but that's because a GeForce 8 isn't even an option, at any cost, with this model. Since I'm saving money elsewhere, I don't mind shopping for my own entry-level 8800 and installing it myself, assuming that such a thing can be done with this model. I've read a couple things that make me unsure if this particular BTX case can accommodate one of those big honking dual-slot 8800's.
- I stepped back down to 2 GB of ram from 4GB, because I know for a fact that 2 GB is fine for now and I can always go back and add more in the future, when it'll be cheaper anyway.
That Shuttle config page has me all hot and bothered. I customized a nice machine for about the same as the other places and kind of just stared at it. It looks really sweet, but isn't the point of going with a 'builder' that upgrades will be easy? I'm kind of intimidated by the square form factor. I want to rush back to the comfort of rectangles. I'm sure I'm wrong, though, and that one would be just as easy to upgrade as anything else. mausmalone, maybe you can fill me in on the pros and cons of Shuttle that you've experienced? Any idea what their support is like?
(snip)
Pros:
* small, and thus out of the way
* portable from room to room
* very quiet (one case fan, one power supply fan, both are very quiet)
* surprisingly easy to upgrade
* good on-board sound and network
* optical audio & firewire
* front ports for USB, 4-pin firewire, microphone, line-in, and headphones (good for a computer in a family area ... whoever's using it can just jack in the headphones for some privacy or put in a USB thumb drive to get to their own files)
Cons:
* not much space to upgrade using PCI-E or PCI cards. So, not a good solution for SLI/Crossfire
* limited space for hard drives. You can only fit two, so make 'em good. Best bet with a shuttle case is to get the biggest single hard drive solution you can, then get a second hard drive later when you actually need it (because then storage capacities would've improved)
* limited space for optical drives. You will probably want a combination CDRW/DVD+/-RW so that you don't need multiple drives
* no space for extra cooling: shouldn't be a problem unless you keep it in a room where there's no climate control at all.
Even though the shuttles are small, they're really well designed. Here's a photo of what the insides of my computer look like (keep in mind you'd probably get SATA not IDE):
It's a little tight, but here's what you're looking at ... the hard drives rest in a caddy, which is removed in this picture and sitting behind the computer. PSU is on the right, AGP and PCI cards on the left, motherboard of course on the bottom. The CPU has a heat sink with heatpipes up to a radiator, which is attached to the case fan. So the one fan that pulls air through the case also acts as the CPU fan.
If you'll notice, they actually have plastic clips along the case's frame along with some ports... the thing is designed to allow you to run drive and power cables along and through the frame in order to maximize airflow.
Unlike rook, I've never really had a problem with dust building up or drivers, but yes it's a bit more of an issue to work on the shuttle than a standard PC. You essentially have to take the hard drive caddy out so that you can get to anything. I don't mind because I almost never do it, but I can imagine it would get annoying if you were in there more frequently.
Maus, thank you so much for that pic and write-up. That is truly awesome. I really do appreciate it.
...however, I've decided that at this point, I'm really trying to make things as easy as possible, even though I probably would have gone with a Shuttle had I seen all this stuff a few years ago. I'm going to go with something a little more 'mainstream' (though I hope Shuttle can establish itself in the market enough to compete with the 'big boys' because I think they have always built quality hardware).
Here's my final setup, from Gateway, unless someone jumps in and says I'm making some horrible mistake.
Not shown: I'm using the mobo's integrated audio instead of the $79 card they want to give you. I've never cared about sound quality; integrated audio has always worked fine for me.
A few notes:
- By picking the 'S' model instead of their top-of-the-line XV or XG, I was able to get better CPU options. This let me bump the CPU up to the E6600 model instead of having to choose between an E6300 or an expensive quad-cpu configuration.
- As mentioned above, I'm going with 2 GB of ram for now. This should be fine but if I ever do want to upgrade, it will most certainly be cheaper in the future than getting all 4 GB now.
- The S model also let me save a little money by going with a 160 GB HDD instead of a 250. I've never had storage problems; my current 80 gigger is still fine.
- As mentioned above, a 19" widescreen LCD for $40 is too good to pass up, especially when I'd have to buy one for my wife's system anyway.
- Once again, the S model comes through by giving me a more appropriate choice for my graphics card as well: I was able to upgrade to a top-of-the-line GeForce 7 series. DX10 may be the wave of the future, but I'm still stuck in the past when it comes to the bulk of my gaming, so I figure if I need to upgrade to an 8 series I can do it when prices have come down a little. Also, I'm happy that I managed to avoid an SLI/crossfire implementation. I'm not a huge fan of that tech and it sounds like most of you aren't either.
- As mentioned above, got my free (or at least included-in-base-price) modem, replacement USB keyboard, Vista (with media), card reader, and 700W PSU.
- Picked up the extended warranty. That seems like a very good price for 3 years of everything. Peace of mind++
I like this build because it's the first I've come up with that gives me everything I need out of the box: I won't have to order anything separately and swap it in myself like I would have to do with vid cards and/or PSUs with Dell or HP. I got an established company with a full 3-year warranty, got a replacement LCD monitor and USB keyboard that I was going to have to buy anyway, and didn't have to skimp on other specs to be able to get it. All this, including tax and shipping, for the $2000 that I was originally planning to spend.
I know this build isn't what you would consider an ideal use of two grand, but considering what I was hoping to accomplish, I think it's my best choice. I know that most of you have lost interest in the topic by now, and I don't blame you. This isn't the most exciting topic in the world, but I genuinely appreciate each and every comment you guys made. Thanks for taking the time. If anyone wants to get in a final comment or criticism of this build, I'm all ears. I'll watch this thread for the next day or so and if no one has pointed out any glaring flaw, I'll probably order it this weekend.
Posts
Some notes on this.
At work we have dell (desktops and workstations), apple (mac pro/power mac), hp (desktops and workstations), IBM (.nix workstations).
HP and Dell desktops are, like any OEM desktop, buy at your own risk. Their workstations tend to be a lot better built, the support is far better, and they don't ship with junk parts.
That budget Dell desktop is built like crap, a 7k+ workstation is not. Their XPS line seems to share some traits in build quality with their high end CAD stations and we haven't had any problem with them or HP.
All these companies make crappy computers for cheap, and all make fairly nice computers and charge you for them. As a buyer you should be aware of what you're shopping for.
I'd also warn heavily against gauging a PSU by wattage, it's amperage that really counts.
We have desktop PSU's blow out left and right regardless of brand, it's a never ending cycle. But on the workstations it almost NEVER happens (knock on wood).
Also some builds (ala shuttle) ship with extremely low wattage PSU's yet can feed the fastest components, better build quality.
The specs aren't great, especially the graphics card, but considering the price I payed for it, with it being a laptop as well, I feel like I got a fair deal, especially with the support I can expect from them. The system worked perfectly out of the box, and I can't recommend HP's more at this time.
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
niiice?
BTW on the PSU's, problem is that certain PSU manufacturers SAY their PSU's can take a certain amount of watts. Which in practice is NOT true. There are a few manufacterers like SeaSonic, Enermax, FSP, Antec that do hold their word.
I also see some mention of PSU's, and in particular the post by tsmvengy about a Nvidia 8800GTX and 300W of power. Whatever you do, do not attempt to run that card on such low power! It will cause you all kinds of stability and performance issues under load. The card is less demanding that one would think, but I would not install it in anything with less than 500W (~400+ of the GTS version).
Find a local computer shop that has a decent rep and have them make it and support it. You won't be happy with any upgrading on premades. Dell, hp can occationally get alittle propriatary.
Other then that? newegg and do it yourself. You save a few hundred dollars doing it yourself, but a fool and his money are soon parted.
I would also recommend CyberPower. I priced out my parts on newegg and pricewatch, and the cyberpower pc with the same parts, assembled, tested, and with a warranty, was only about $50 more.
On top of that, it's been almost 2 years without a single crash or issue.
The URL didn't keep your custom changes, so it just shows the base model. But, yeah, that case & motherboard is fucking awesome.
Shuttle's case cooling and motherboards are all very low power. I've still got the base 200W PSU in mine, I'm running 2 hard drives, a DVD drive, a Radeon X800 (with the extra HDD power connector), Athlon XP 3000+, and for what it counts a scanner powered off USB and I've had no power issues whatsoever.
But there is no option for upgrading video cards.
Even if he's approaching the border of being a dick in his posts (yes, Whuppins, don't be a prick if you're asking for help... just state your problem, leave out the sarcasm), there's no reason for not considering it. He said so himself: he's several years "behind" in playing games. So why bother upgrading the card?
Logic has been casually tossed to the wind several times in this thread.
edit: And n'thly, there's no reason a Mac wouldn't make it to the "5 year mark" he made mention to.
That said, I was only being a dick to rook because he was being a dick to me (which, in turn, was caused by him misreading my posts). None of the dickishness was aimed in your or anyone else's direction.
Anyway, rook's advice has been informative, as has everyone else's. I had been moving away from Dell because it seemed I could save some money on a similar machine from HP, but that underpowered PSU is kind of irritating. If I ordered an HP I'd have to swap in (probably) a PSU and (at some point) a graphics card. This just bumps the price back up near where Dell's was, and it involves some of the DIY stuff that I was trying to avoid in the first place. I don't even know how easily these things can be done on HP's; I have far less experience with them as with Dells and the consensus in this thread seems mixed on the topic. I'd be more encouraged to get an HP if I knew that the swapping I had to do would be straightforward and not marred by proprietary...ness (propriety? That doesn't seem right...).
That Shuttle config page has me all hot and bothered. I customized a nice machine for about the same as the other places and kind of just stared at it. It looks really sweet, but isn't the point of going with a 'builder' that upgrades will be easy? I'm kind of intimidated by the square form factor. I want to rush back to the comfort of rectangles. I'm sure I'm wrong, though, and that one would be just as easy to upgrade as anything else. mausmalone, maybe you can fill me in on the pros and cons of Shuttle that you've experienced? Any idea what their support is like?
Oh, and Gateway is still around? I had no idea. I guess that's another place to look. Thanks for all the info; I'm still trying to figure all this out.
My brother built a shuttle PC a while ago, and it's actually pretty nice. True, the small form factor can be a pain to take apart and troubleshoot, but they are very quiet and very compact. Personally, they add too much "crap" to the case for my liking (look, if I wanted an SD slot or a Memory Stick Duo slot, I'd get an adapter).
The only one major downside I have with them is that many of the drivers that power the "in house" developed components are just that: in house. So you're at the mercy of the patches they put forth, and when. That said, when my brother did have a problem with his motherboard, they were nice enough to do an advanced replacement free of charge (at least, as long as they got the defective one back before a certain date).
Oh, and I know in previous generations they had some problems with double-slot video cards and internal real estate, but I guess they fixed that?
I have a shuttle (3200xp oh snap!) and whilst I do dearly love it, they're not as quiet as you'd like to think they would be. They're also a complete bastard to maintain or upgrade (you literally have to take the entire thing apart if you want to clean anything on it or upgrade a bit of it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
This is hard.
Rook, these hoops that you have to jump through to upgrade/maintain your Shuttle, do they actually require advanced knowledge of PC hardware, or are they just a bitch to do? I could probably live with a Shuttle as long as I didn't have to do something drastic just to throw another gig of ram in or whatever.
Also, Gateway is looking really good, the best of the 'big 3' so far. I'm looking at an Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.86 GHz with 4 GB PC5300 DDR. Other stuff like Vista, a cheapo vid card, a CD/DVD+-RW, and a 250GB SATA are common to all 3 suppliers so I'm not worrying about them.
However, this build also includes several 'perks' that Dell and/or HP don't give you for free by default: A 9-in-1 memcard reader, 700W PSU (the only choice, I swear!), USB keyboard, modem, etc. Also, with the money I saved (see below) I was able to pick up some other nice items: In addition to bumping up to 4 GB of ram, I also added the extended 3-year parts/labor/on-site warranty and a fancy 80-dollar sound card (though that one might have been required, I'm not sure if the mobo has onboard sound). All that, including tax and shipping, comes to $1750, leaving me with $250 or so to shop for an upgraded vid card (and without having to shop for a PSU).
The potential downside is that I took over $1000 off the original price by downgrading from the default Core 2 Quad to the Core 2 Duo E6300. I understand that the E6300 is somewhat ghetto, but honestly, over a thousand dollars? The Quad had better make grilled cheese sandwiches and give handjobs for it to be worth that much more. Unfortunately, there is no 'middle ground' between the E6300 and the Quad, so I'm pretty much stuck with my 2 MB L2 cache and my 1.86 GHz. Assuming I just want to be able to play new-ish games -- not really make them shine -- is this acceptable, or a grave mistake?
Jesus, the one time that I'm trying to play with the Gateway site and it goes down: www.gateway.com gets you a blank page with the following: "The system is down for maintenance. Please try again later." Oh well, any thoughts while I'm waiting to get back in and play around some more?
Gateway® FX530XM
Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor E6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 4MB cache, non-HT)
Operating System: Genuine Windows Vistaâ„¢ Home Premium (32-bit)
Memory: 2048MB 667MHz PC5300 Dual-Channel DDR2 SDRAM (2-1024MB modules)
Hard Drive: 500GB 7200rpm Serial ATA II/300 hard drive w/ 8MB cache (2-250GB hard drives)
Monitor: Gateway® 19" Widescreen High Definition LCD Display
Optical Drive: 48x/32x/48x CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive
Video: ATI x1300 Ultra Video Card with 128MB Dual DVI & TV-Out
Media Card Reader: 9-in-1 Memory Card Reader
Chassis: Gateway® 7-bay BTX tower case
Keyboard: Gateway® Elite Multimedia Keyboard
Modem: 56K PCI data/fax modem
Motherboard: Intel® 975X Chipset with DDR2 and Intel® Core™ Duo support
Power Supply: 700-Watt Power Supply
Warranty: Desktop Value Plus Service Plan -- 3 year parts/ labor/ on-site/ 3 year technical support
(no speakers, no mouse, using mobo's onboard audio)
That's for $1,764.80 including tax and shipping.
A couple things to note:
- That setup includes a 19" widescreen LCD monitor for $40. I haven't mentioned this, but one of my needs is an LCD monitor to replace an old one that is failing on my wife's system. It's a totally separate issue, but this is a very good deal (the replacement monitor doesn't need to be anything special) and I figure it makes the overall package more attractive.
- The graphics card is even shittier than I've been talking about, but that's because a GeForce 8 isn't even an option, at any cost, with this model. Since I'm saving money elsewhere, I don't mind shopping for my own entry-level 8800 and installing it myself, assuming that such a thing can be done with this model. I've read a couple things that make me unsure if this particular BTX case can accommodate one of those big honking dual-slot 8800's.
- I stepped back down to 2 GB of ram from 4GB, because I know for a fact that 2 GB is fine for now and I can always go back and add more in the future, when it'll be cheaper anyway.
Opinions?
Pros:
* small, and thus out of the way
* portable from room to room
* very quiet (one case fan, one power supply fan, both are very quiet)
* surprisingly easy to upgrade
* good on-board sound and network
* optical audio & firewire
* front ports for USB, 4-pin firewire, microphone, line-in, and headphones (good for a computer in a family area ... whoever's using it can just jack in the headphones for some privacy or put in a USB thumb drive to get to their own files)
Cons:
* not much space to upgrade using PCI-E or PCI cards. So, not a good solution for SLI/Crossfire
* limited space for hard drives. You can only fit two, so make 'em good. Best bet with a shuttle case is to get the biggest single hard drive solution you can, then get a second hard drive later when you actually need it (because then storage capacities would've improved)
* limited space for optical drives. You will probably want a combination CDRW/DVD+/-RW so that you don't need multiple drives
* no space for extra cooling: shouldn't be a problem unless you keep it in a room where there's no climate control at all.
Even though the shuttles are small, they're really well designed. Here's a photo of what the insides of my computer look like (keep in mind you'd probably get SATA not IDE):
It's a little tight, but here's what you're looking at ... the hard drives rest in a caddy, which is removed in this picture and sitting behind the computer. PSU is on the right, AGP and PCI cards on the left, motherboard of course on the bottom. The CPU has a heat sink with heatpipes up to a radiator, which is attached to the case fan. So the one fan that pulls air through the case also acts as the CPU fan.
If you'll notice, they actually have plastic clips along the case's frame along with some ports... the thing is designed to allow you to run drive and power cables along and through the frame in order to maximize airflow.
Unlike rook, I've never really had a problem with dust building up or drivers, but yes it's a bit more of an issue to work on the shuttle than a standard PC. You essentially have to take the hard drive caddy out so that you can get to anything. I don't mind because I almost never do it, but I can imagine it would get annoying if you were in there more frequently.
Maus, thank you so much for that pic and write-up. That is truly awesome. I really do appreciate it.
...however, I've decided that at this point, I'm really trying to make things as easy as possible, even though I probably would have gone with a Shuttle had I seen all this stuff a few years ago. I'm going to go with something a little more 'mainstream' (though I hope Shuttle can establish itself in the market enough to compete with the 'big boys' because I think they have always built quality hardware).
Here's my final setup, from Gateway, unless someone jumps in and says I'm making some horrible mistake.
Not shown: I'm using the mobo's integrated audio instead of the $79 card they want to give you. I've never cared about sound quality; integrated audio has always worked fine for me.
A few notes:
- By picking the 'S' model instead of their top-of-the-line XV or XG, I was able to get better CPU options. This let me bump the CPU up to the E6600 model instead of having to choose between an E6300 or an expensive quad-cpu configuration.
- As mentioned above, I'm going with 2 GB of ram for now. This should be fine but if I ever do want to upgrade, it will most certainly be cheaper in the future than getting all 4 GB now.
- The S model also let me save a little money by going with a 160 GB HDD instead of a 250. I've never had storage problems; my current 80 gigger is still fine.
- As mentioned above, a 19" widescreen LCD for $40 is too good to pass up, especially when I'd have to buy one for my wife's system anyway.
- Once again, the S model comes through by giving me a more appropriate choice for my graphics card as well: I was able to upgrade to a top-of-the-line GeForce 7 series. DX10 may be the wave of the future, but I'm still stuck in the past when it comes to the bulk of my gaming, so I figure if I need to upgrade to an 8 series I can do it when prices have come down a little. Also, I'm happy that I managed to avoid an SLI/crossfire implementation. I'm not a huge fan of that tech and it sounds like most of you aren't either.
- As mentioned above, got my free (or at least included-in-base-price) modem, replacement USB keyboard, Vista (with media), card reader, and 700W PSU.
- Picked up the extended warranty. That seems like a very good price for 3 years of everything. Peace of mind++
I like this build because it's the first I've come up with that gives me everything I need out of the box: I won't have to order anything separately and swap it in myself like I would have to do with vid cards and/or PSUs with Dell or HP. I got an established company with a full 3-year warranty, got a replacement LCD monitor and USB keyboard that I was going to have to buy anyway, and didn't have to skimp on other specs to be able to get it. All this, including tax and shipping, for the $2000 that I was originally planning to spend.
I know this build isn't what you would consider an ideal use of two grand, but considering what I was hoping to accomplish, I think it's my best choice. I know that most of you have lost interest in the topic by now, and I don't blame you. This isn't the most exciting topic in the world, but I genuinely appreciate each and every comment you guys made. Thanks for taking the time. If anyone wants to get in a final comment or criticism of this build, I'm all ears. I'll watch this thread for the next day or so and if no one has pointed out any glaring flaw, I'll probably order it this weekend.
Thanks again, everyone.