The latest US Fords and Lincolns just look bizzare to me and the European designs look much better.
Is it weird that they both just look like "cars" to me? I mean, if I carefully examine each version I can spot differences, but I don't see a "style" of any sort in either of them. I have no idea what's supposed to be appealing in a car's shape, and I don't think I have any sort of internal preferences either.
Hmmm, it seems like it will be hard to call the solution for GM anything but socialism with labor and the government getting the lions share of the stock. I'll imagine there are going to be some massive fits from the Republicans if that goes through.
Ford does look like it could have some good long term prospects out of this (even though they are still hemorrhaging money for now), as a dead Chrysler and crippled GM will let them gobble up market share. That depends on things turning around a bit though.
With GM and Chrysler declaring bankruptcy, the taxpayer (via the government) is now responsible for the pensions of the retired workers of those two companies. Their benefits will be cut, but the government will foot the bill.
Now, why didn't we bail them out? Oh yeah, that's right, because it would cost the taxpayers.
I guess it makes me kind of sad that the vast majority of people would rather spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on soulless appliances instead of, um, cars. I wouldn't understand it I guess.
Maybe it's because I've only really driven crown vics, caprices, thunderbirds, camaros, etc (big old ugly gas swilling monstrosities) and the like. Oh and trucks.
I've never driven a cavalier or a civic or a corolla so I wouldn't know. I do think the bad rap on domestic reliability is overblown. It's always like "yeah my friend had a chevy and it broke and stuff." Ford arguably makes one of the most reliable cars in the world, and has for a long time. Personally, I don't know if my 94 has ever really been in the shop. It had a clean carfax when I bought it (which doesn't say much) and for the 30k I've driven it it's just been maintenance. I may be out of touch with newer cars though.
I'm not worried about it. It's not like all the old pontiacs are gonna dissapear.
edit: I guess it does apply across the board! I very much liked the idea of the s2000 while that lasted.
The latest US Fords and Lincolns just look bizzare to me and the European designs look much better.
that and the euro quality is better and they still get a focus in a hatch back
You can still get the Mazda3 in a hatch, though, which is for all intents and purposes a European Focus. I'm still a bit mad that Mazda and Ford split, I would have loved to get a Mazda6 with the new fusion hybrid system.
I've never driven a cavalier or a civic or a corolla so I wouldn't know. I do think the bad rap on domestic reliability is overblown. It's always like "yeah my friend had a chevy and it broke and stuff." Ford arguably makes one of the most reliable cars in the world, and has for a long time. Personally, I don't know if my 94 has ever really been in the shop. It had a clean carfax when I bought it (which doesn't say much) and for the 30k I've driven it it's just been maintenance. I may be out of touch with newer cars though.
Consumer reports conducts extensive surveys every year, and the domestic brands are always well behind Japanese and European brands, apples to apples. I mean, yeah, a Porsche 996 will be less reliable than a Ford Taurus, but as a whole, the domestic brands suck. Chrysler in particular is terrible. Ford is merely the least bad.
And Ford does not make the most reliable cars in the world. By any sane metric.
It is true that if you take exquisite care of your average domestic car, it will last a long time. The thing with Japanese brands is that they last a long time whether you're anal about automotive care or not. And if you are anal, it'll last pretty much forever. This isn't just anecdote, this is historical precedent. Toyota and Honda, in particular, are the actual most reliable cars in the world. (Note that some Japanese brands largely suck, such as Mitsubishi.)
ElJeffe on
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I've never driven a cavalier or a civic or a corolla so I wouldn't know. I do think the bad rap on domestic reliability is overblown. It's always like "yeah my friend had a chevy and it broke and stuff." Ford arguably makes one of the most reliable cars in the world, and has for a long time. Personally, I don't know if my 94 has ever really been in the shop. It had a clean carfax when I bought it (which doesn't say much) and for the 30k I've driven it it's just been maintenance. I may be out of touch with newer cars though.
Consumer reports conducts extensive surveys every year, and the domestic brands are always well behind Japanese and European brands, apples to apples. I mean, yeah, a Porsche 996 will be less reliable than a Ford Taurus, but as a whole, the domestic brands suck. Chrysler in particular is terrible. Ford is merely the least bad.
And Ford does not make the most reliable cars in the world. By any sane metric.
It is true that if you take exquisite care of your average domestic car, it will last a long time. The thing with Japanese brands is that they last a long time whether you're anal about automotive care or not. And if you are anal, it'll last pretty much forever. This isn't just anecdote, this is historical precedent. Toyota and Honda, in particular, are the actual most reliable cars in the world. (Note that some Japanese brands largely suck, such as Mitsubishi.)
I'm taking my 97 Accord with me to the grave . When I have money/career I'm going to give it a paint job and make it like new.
It is true that if you take exquisite care of your average domestic car, it will last a long time. The thing with Japanese brands is that they last a long time whether you're anal about automotive care or not. And if you are anal, it'll last pretty much forever. This isn't just anecdote, this is historical precedent. Toyota and Honda, in particular, are the actual most reliable cars in the world. (Note that some Japanese brands largely suck, such as Mitsubishi.)
My Honda's one of the rougher models ('03 Accord), but generally this is true. Still... occasionally they do put out the occasional rough model.
I had a 98 Civic for about four years, then I had a 98 4Runner for a couple years, and now a '00 4Runner. I have never had a major problem with any of them. The most serious issue I've had was the starter going out in the Civic, which cost me $35 for a rebuilt replacement and I was able to swap out myself.
Yes, anecdote anecdote lol, but I have three whole data points! Suck it, Ford!
ElJeffe on
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It is true that if you take exquisite care of your average domestic car, it will last a long time. The thing with Japanese brands is that they last a long time whether you're anal about automotive care or not. And if you are anal, it'll last pretty much forever. This isn't just anecdote, this is historical precedent. Toyota and Honda, in particular, are the actual most reliable cars in the world. (Note that some Japanese brands largely suck, such as Mitsubishi.)
My Honda's one of the rougher models ('03 Accord), but generally this is true. Still... occasionally they do put out the occasional rough model.
Well, yeah, every make has a few lemons. It's just that the domestics have an entire goddamned fruitbasket.
ElJeffe on
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I guess I'm more likely to look at edmunds or jd power then consumer reports. A crown victoria is a hard car to kill, by any sane metric.
Just as every make has lemons, every make has some good ones. I was speaking of trends.
Though out of curiosity, can you point me to some credible source showing that Ford is the most reliable make in the world?
ElJeffe on
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Actually I was speaking solely of the crown victoria. You're taking me saying "Ford arguably makes one of the most reliable cars in the world, and has for a long time" and making it into "Ford makes the most reliable cars ever." So I'm not really gonna respond to that. The crown vic's fleet service record speaks for itself. Although on edmunds it's apparently a little worse than the accord. Probably due to the composite intake manifold they ran for a few years. Although also according to edmunds the makes are on par. Which I suppose would fall inline with what I was saying.
If it's a matter of reliability - I can't speak for other Chryslers but my Jeep has been extremely reliable. I've had it since I was 16 - the better part of a decade - totaled it about a year after I got it, and after a few months body work it was good as new. The air conditioner breaks down every once in a while but performance-wise it's been damn near perfect so far. Every other Jeep owner I've met has told me the same thing. I know Jeep is kind of a subsidiary but if they made their other stuff as well as they do Jeep I have a hard time believing they suck straight off the lot.
Consumer reports conducts extensive surveys every year, and the domestic brands are always well behind Japanese and European brands, apples to apples. I mean, yeah, a Porsche 996 will be less reliable than a Ford Taurus, but as a whole, the domestic brands suck. Chrysler in particular is terrible. Ford is merely the least bad.
And Ford does not make the most reliable cars in the world. By any sane metric.
*cough*
It might help, before using the Consumer Reports survey as a source, to actually read the consumer reports survey.
Hint: The lowest Ford brand (counting Volvo as a Ford brand) is ahead of the highest European brand.
When Chrysler goes down Jeep will move on to somewhere else, like it always has. Although I have a particular burning hatred for the power windows on grand cherokees.
Also, as you can see, it depends on your source. I get my information from an exclusively automotive site, maybe a source that also reviews household products can offer some different insight.
Apparently lameass cheap toyotas for college undergrads that you can buy factory PIMPED are extremely reliable! The more you know. At least that's what they predict!
I'm surprised land rovers are so low. Maybe that is just because their rich ass buyers bring them in all the time because they thought they heard a noise.
JebusUD on
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
When Chrysler goes down Jeep will move on to somewhere else, like it always has. Although I have a particular burning hatred for the power windows on grand cherokees.
Also, as you can see, it depends on your source. I get my information from an exclusively automotive site, maybe a source that also reviews household products can offer some different insight.
Apparently lameass cheap toyotas for college undergrads that you can buy factory PIMPED are extremely reliable! The more you know. At least that's what they predict!
Here are the latest JD Power dependability rankings:
Note the differences, one important thing to note here though is that CR includes data from the last 10 years while JD power rankings are solely on the last 3.
I've seen them. I don't know what you're saying here, maybe you're arguing against where I stated, "Ford is the most reliable make in the world?" Or maybe that JD Power is a marketing firm that exclusively surveys cars?
Ah. I agree. Sorry if I was inflammatory. ElJeffe kinda put me on D.
I'd really like to know if fleet vehicles are included in this survey. It would have to skew the data for domestics in some way, I can't really say which.
Note the differences, one important thing to note here though is that CR includes data from the last 10 years while JD power rankings are solely on the last 3.
What I'm taking from this is that domestic brands do well until their warranties expire, then pretty much explode into shrapnel?
ElJeffe on
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I'm surprised land rovers are so low. Maybe that is just because their rich ass buyers bring them in all the time because they thought they heard a noise.
No, Land Rover (outside of the Defender, which is I think sold as the D90 and D110 in the US, and is basically a tractor) is famous for it's appalling build quality, to the point that brand fanboys cheerfully acknowledge it and consider it to be part of the ownership experience.
As an example, in the old shape Range Rovers, it wasn't considered a fault if you couldn't open the glove compartment with the door closed (if the trim was poorly installed, and it almost invariably was, the hatch would jam on the door moulding) or if water leaked in under the seal at the top of the windscreen.
And that's in a vehicle billed as a premium luxury 4x4.
As for SAAB, its trying to find a new buyer. Theyve got interested parties apparently, so if they can get someone to buy them they'll still be around, minus GM's crappy influence. Which will be a net positive for the brand.
Hint: The lowest Ford brand (counting Volvo as a Ford brand) is ahead of the highest European brand.
Note that I said apples to apples. Comparing a Ford Focus to a Porsche Boxster is rather misleading, because the cars do different things and have different standards. I wouldn't expect the Boxster to be more reliable than the Focus; it's designed for performance.
From a reliability standpoint, if you want a sedan, what do you buy? A Honda or a Toyota. If you want a sport sedan, what do you buy? A BMW. If you want a sports car, what do you buy? A Boxster, maybe a Z4.
For practical cars, you go Japanese. For performance cars, you go European. Generally speaking.
ElJeffe on
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ITT domestic vehicles all come with 3 year warranties. Do people even keep cars for three years nowadays?
Y... yes? Some of us like not always having car payments.
And buying new is for suckers.
ElJeffe on
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Hint: The lowest Ford brand (counting Volvo as a Ford brand) is ahead of the highest European brand.
Note that I said apples to apples. Comparing a Ford Focus to a Porsche Boxster is rather misleading, because the cars do different things and have different standards. I wouldn't expect the Boxster to be more reliable than the Focus; it's designed for performance.
From a reliability standpoint, if you want a sedan, what do you buy? A Honda or a Toyota. If you want a sport sedan, what do you buy? A BMW. If you want a sports car, what do you buy? A Boxster, maybe a Z4.
For practical cars, you go Japanese. For performance cars, you go European. Generally speaking.
Leasing is a thing, if you particularly like driving a new car. Then maybe you lease instead of buy new. But I think most fiscally prudent people don't need to spend money to always be driving a relatively new car.
Anyways was my source not credible enough? I guess having ford marked that high in reliability really shoots holes in their credibility, right haha
Sorry, I did misread what you meant to say. Didn't know you were talking specifically about the Crown Vic.
As to leasing, I think it's a decent deal if you really do swap cars every three years. If you don't care about that, it's a shitty deal. Not having a car payment rocks.
ElJeffe on
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Hint: The lowest Ford brand (counting Volvo as a Ford brand) is ahead of the highest European brand.
Note that I said apples to apples. Comparing a Ford Focus to a Porsche Boxster is rather misleading, because the cars do different things and have different standards. I wouldn't expect the Boxster to be more reliable than the Focus; it's designed for performance.
From a reliability standpoint, if you want a sedan, what do you buy? A Honda or a Toyota. If you want a sport sedan, what do you buy? A BMW. If you want a sports car, what do you buy? A Boxster, maybe a Z4.
For practical cars, you go Japanese. For performance cars, you go European. Generally speaking.
domestic brands are always well behind Japanese and European brands, apples to apples.
It doesn't count as goalpost moving if you were staring at the wrong endzone.
ElJeffe on
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I'm just saying there are a ton of people that swap cars every 3 years. Probably a lot more then those that keep them for 10. I'm not defending JD's metric, just justifying it.
Also I do acknowledge that Honda and Toyota make some of the most reliable cars in the world. Regardless of which source you check, they tend to score well. They just don't really make anything I'd ever drive. Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi, sure, I just don't want to drive an appliance.
Posts
that and the euro quality is better and they still get a focus in a hatch back
The changes are subtle, but I absolutely abhor the U.S. version, specially the rear lights. Ugh.
Ford does look like it could have some good long term prospects out of this (even though they are still hemorrhaging money for now), as a dead Chrysler and crippled GM will let them gobble up market share. That depends on things turning around a bit though.
The irony is delicious and keeps me going.
With GM and Chrysler declaring bankruptcy, the taxpayer (via the government) is now responsible for the pensions of the retired workers of those two companies. Their benefits will be cut, but the government will foot the bill.
Now, why didn't we bail them out? Oh yeah, that's right, because it would cost the taxpayers.
cartman_wtf.wav
Maybe it's because I've only really driven crown vics, caprices, thunderbirds, camaros, etc (big old ugly gas swilling monstrosities) and the like. Oh and trucks.
I've never driven a cavalier or a civic or a corolla so I wouldn't know. I do think the bad rap on domestic reliability is overblown. It's always like "yeah my friend had a chevy and it broke and stuff." Ford arguably makes one of the most reliable cars in the world, and has for a long time. Personally, I don't know if my 94 has ever really been in the shop. It had a clean carfax when I bought it (which doesn't say much) and for the 30k I've driven it it's just been maintenance. I may be out of touch with newer cars though.
I'm not worried about it. It's not like all the old pontiacs are gonna dissapear.
edit: I guess it does apply across the board! I very much liked the idea of the s2000 while that lasted.
You can still get the Mazda3 in a hatch, though, which is for all intents and purposes a European Focus. I'm still a bit mad that Mazda and Ford split, I would have loved to get a Mazda6 with the new fusion hybrid system.
Consumer reports conducts extensive surveys every year, and the domestic brands are always well behind Japanese and European brands, apples to apples. I mean, yeah, a Porsche 996 will be less reliable than a Ford Taurus, but as a whole, the domestic brands suck. Chrysler in particular is terrible. Ford is merely the least bad.
And Ford does not make the most reliable cars in the world. By any sane metric.
It is true that if you take exquisite care of your average domestic car, it will last a long time. The thing with Japanese brands is that they last a long time whether you're anal about automotive care or not. And if you are anal, it'll last pretty much forever. This isn't just anecdote, this is historical precedent. Toyota and Honda, in particular, are the actual most reliable cars in the world. (Note that some Japanese brands largely suck, such as Mitsubishi.)
I'm taking my 97 Accord with me to the grave
Yes, anecdote anecdote lol, but I have three whole data points! Suck it, Ford!
Well, yeah, every make has a few lemons. It's just that the domestics have an entire goddamned fruitbasket.
Just as every make has lemons, every make has some good ones. I was speaking of trends.
Though out of curiosity, can you point me to some credible source showing that Ford is the most reliable make in the world?
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2008/ford/crownvictoria/100876921/reliability.html
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2008/honda/accord/100939052/reliability.html
*cough*
It might help, before using the Consumer Reports survey as a source, to actually read the consumer reports survey.
Hint: The lowest Ford brand (counting Volvo as a Ford brand) is ahead of the highest European brand.
And the sebring convertible and the 300 both look pretty nice.
Unfortuantely those are all the good models I can think of. Maybe they just have bad brand diversity?
but they're listening to every word I say
Also, as you can see, it depends on your source. I get my information from an exclusively automotive site, maybe a source that also reviews household products can offer some different insight.
Apparently lameass cheap toyotas for college undergrads that you can buy factory PIMPED are extremely reliable! The more you know. At least that's what they predict!
I'm surprised land rovers are so low. Maybe that is just because their rich ass buyers bring them in all the time because they thought they heard a noise.
but they're listening to every word I say
Here are the latest JD Power dependability rankings:
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand
Note the differences, one important thing to note here though is that CR includes data from the last 10 years while JD power rankings are solely on the last 3.
I was just agreeing that it depends on your source, different sources make it seem like pretty much a crapshoot.
I'd really like to know if fleet vehicles are included in this survey. It would have to skew the data for domestics in some way, I can't really say which.
What I'm taking from this is that domestic brands do well until their warranties expire, then pretty much explode into shrapnel?
No, Land Rover (outside of the Defender, which is I think sold as the D90 and D110 in the US, and is basically a tractor) is famous for it's appalling build quality, to the point that brand fanboys cheerfully acknowledge it and consider it to be part of the ownership experience.
As an example, in the old shape Range Rovers, it wasn't considered a fault if you couldn't open the glove compartment with the door closed (if the trim was poorly installed, and it almost invariably was, the hatch would jam on the door moulding) or if water leaked in under the seal at the top of the windscreen.
And that's in a vehicle billed as a premium luxury 4x4.
Note that I said apples to apples. Comparing a Ford Focus to a Porsche Boxster is rather misleading, because the cars do different things and have different standards. I wouldn't expect the Boxster to be more reliable than the Focus; it's designed for performance.
From a reliability standpoint, if you want a sedan, what do you buy? A Honda or a Toyota. If you want a sport sedan, what do you buy? A BMW. If you want a sports car, what do you buy? A Boxster, maybe a Z4.
For practical cars, you go Japanese. For performance cars, you go European. Generally speaking.
Y... yes? Some of us like not always having car payments.
And buying new is for suckers.
And yes, new cars are for suckers.
Anyways was my source not credible enough? I guess having ford marked that high in reliability really shoots holes in their credibility, right haha
Goalposts moved.
Sorry, I did misread what you meant to say. Didn't know you were talking specifically about the Crown Vic.
As to leasing, I think it's a decent deal if you really do swap cars every three years. If you don't care about that, it's a shitty deal. Not having a car payment rocks.
It doesn't count as goalpost moving if you were staring at the wrong endzone.
Still great mileage, smooth ride, only has aesthetic issues. (e.g. top of dashboard is all cracked up by the Sun)
Also I do acknowledge that Honda and Toyota make some of the most reliable cars in the world. Regardless of which source you check, they tend to score well. They just don't really make anything I'd ever drive. Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi, sure, I just don't want to drive an appliance.