Well you've given no support for your position, so yeah i'm leaning towards that explanation.
It's not something you need to provide support for. People are expected to, by default, react with horror when a giant robot falls upon a bunch of civilians due to the reckless actions of a group.
Or are you going to dispute that?
psyco does make a point. When confronted by unimaginable terror and invasion, a population (real or fantasy) does tend to suspend rationale in favor of "who can protect me? I'll take anyone!"
Hence Norman Osborn, the guy who saved us on national T.V. He has to be alright.
But he would never be given the job. Regardless of the fact that he was only "in charge" of the Thunderbolts while Stark had complete control of him, there is absolutely no way he'd have been hired to the job. It would've been someone like Dugan, or someone with some experience at that sort of thing. At the very least, Osborn's resume was totally inadequate, and that's not even acknowledging the whole insane murderer thing.
Dugan was a prisoner for the Skrulls for god knows how long. If anything, I believe that the government would have chosen Gyrich, and I was a little surprised that he is currently nowhere to be found during the dark reign.
But Osborn is a better choice because he's a better antagonist as the head of an evil cabal than Gyrich would ever be.
Witch_Hunter_84 on
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
If Bush killed a skrull with his bare hands, wouyld you still reelect him for a third term?
That's a trick question: We all know that Bush is really the Skrull.
Although I abhor these kind of arguments, I just want to point out that the Marvel populace in general only knows Norman Osborn as a successful businessman, corporate figurehead and the man in change of the Thunderbolts program, which is considered a popular and political success after the Skrull Invasion. I think only a few characters know he was/is the Green Goblin, a total psychopath and otherwise crazier than the proverbial sh*thouse rat.*
Plus, think about it like this: In the real world, we look past the quirks and particularities of various political figures and celebrities that would otherwise be considered serious concerns in regular people because of whatever talent/charm they have. Why should the Marvel Universe be any different.
* Big asterisk here: I don’t think it was revealed to the general public Norman was the Green Goblin, but I’m no continuality Nazi.
Actually the first arc of "The Pulse" (the not so great Alias follow up) had Jessica exposing Norman as the GG to the entire public. Also Nick Cage beat him up with Spider-mans help
Actually the first arc of "The Pulse" (the not so great Alias follow up) had Jessica exposing Norman as the GG to the entire public. Also Nick Cage beat him up with Spider-mans help
After seeing him kick Leelee Sobieski in the face in Wicker Man, I knew Cage had some moves.
Actually the first arc of "The Pulse" (the not so great Alias follow up) had Jessica exposing Norman as the GG to the entire public. Also Nick Cage beat him up with Spider-mans help
Eh, like I said, Norman being a bloodthirsty psycho flying around dressed like a goblin trying to kill Spiderman is just a minor personality quirk in the Marvel Universe.
It's also not like Norman was suddenly placed in a position of power, he was part of the government committee responsibly for superhumans well before Dark Reign, even Stark answered to him (and the other committee members). Not to mention Thunderbolts which was shown as an incredibly effective publicity machine before SI.
So he didn't exactly go straight from his jail cell to the oval office or anything, it's been established for quite a while now that as far as the public and the government are concerned he's a good guy and his actions during SI just cemented that after the downfall of Stark.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
When did Stark answer to Osborn? Stark had Osborn injected with nanobots to keep him under control.
Actually the first arc of "The Pulse" (the not so great Alias follow up) had Jessica exposing Norman as the GG to the entire public. Also Nick Cage beat him up with Spider-mans help
After seeing him kick Leelee Sobieski in the face in Wicker Man, I knew Cage had some moves.
Damnit, I didn't even catch that. Oh well, I'll let my terrible typo stand
But he would never be given the job. Regardless of the fact that he was only "in charge" of the Thunderbolts while Stark had complete control of him, there is absolutely no way he'd have been hired to the job. It would've been someone like Dugan, or someone with some experience at that sort of thing.
He was director of the Thunderbolts program at the same time he was a member of the Commission on Superhuman Activities, which by its very nature gives him a ton of pull. The Thunderbolts were also the Initiative team for Colorado (which puts them under the CSA and the Superhuman Armed Forces--which were overseen by another CSA member and Cabinet-level official, Secretary Gyrich) and were deputized as Marshals for the purpose of bringing in fugitive superhumans (which puts them under the Marshals Service and thus Justice Department). So their oversight is muddled at best between two Cabinet departments and an independent commission. But Osborne was on that commission before Civil War, if I'm not mistaken, along with other such notable fuck-ups as Gyrich and Val Cooper.
But Tony Stark was not on the CSA, and not above it. He was appointed by the President, but in a symbolic appointment similar to how the President decides who becomes the head of the World Bank--because SHIELD and the Bank are both international organizations, but the U.S. has the largest stake in both so they get the most power. Stark never had any control over the Thunderbolts, the Initiative, or Osborne because his power within the United States was at best limited to what was granted to him and SHIELD in their deputization during/after Civil War to shore up operational and manpower shortcomings that the U.S. government had. The most power Stark had over the Initiative was that he was the supervisor of War Machine and SHIELD personnel, but even that only went so far before he and they got cockblocked by Gyrich early on.
Let's not kid ourselves. The U.S. government's role in superhuman affairs and activities has always been a catastrophic failure since the end of WW2.
It's also not like Norman was suddenly placed in a position of power, he was part of the government committee responsibly for superhumans well before Dark Reign, even Stark answered to him (and the other committee members).
Stark didn't actually answer to Osborne or the CSA. What happened was that after he ordered SHIELD to use a nuclear weapon on the Mandarin's facility outside of Omaha, the CSA and the UN General Assembly held a joint hearing into the incident because the UN oversees SHIELD but it happened in the U.S. ostensibly under the authority granted to the agency to operate within the U.S. by CSA or, well, let's assume CSA. But after all, the hearings were held in the General Assembly chamber. But as I recall if they had been charged with war crimes, it would have become an ICC/UN matter.
Also gotta say that this weeks Dark Avengers casts further doubt on the 'Osborn was just talking bullshit to The Sentry" theory for me.
He seemed quite bummed out when they thought that Bob was dead, and i read Osborn's face at the end as him realizing that he's massively under-estimated Bob and that he's not just regular Supercrazy like Osborn.
I'd be bummed too if my only real weapon against Doom and Loki was presumed dead.
I still think that scene was merely Osborne manipulating Bob, and not wanting to help him at all. I mean, that's the point. You have to make him think you're on his side, and get him to open up. It's trust-building for later. Tony never did it with Bob, or at least well, and look at what was wasted as a result. Norman had to see that he had a superweapon living upstairs that no one ever used. But, no, I will never accept the idea that Norman has done anything with Bob out of any sort of magnanimity. He's using Bob as a weapon, and will do whatever it takes to keep Bob working for him.
That just doesn't read to me as Machiavellian schemer angered losing a playing piece. I can see why it doesn't work if you're set on viewing Osborn as living in 24/7 mustache twirling mode, but i like the idea of Norman sympathizing with somebody who's got a super villain living in his head.
He was wrong about the Void and he was definitely doing it because he wanted ersatz-superman back on the job, but i don't think that he was entirely without sympathy and some degree of empathy for Bob.
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
Well, there is the fact that Norman's insane. We can't exactly expect him to be consistent. Even though we know he's evil, an he knows he's evil, he might forget that he's evil sometimes.
That just doesn't read to me as Machiavellian schemer angered losing a playing piece. I can see why it doesn't work if you're set on viewing Osborn as living in 24/7 mustache twirling mode, but i like the idea of Norman sympathizing with somebody who's got a super villain living in his head.
He was wrong about the Void and he was definitely doing it because he wanted ersatz-superman back on the job, but i don't think that he was entirely without sympathy and some degree of empathy for Bob.
If he's truly a psychopath (as opposed to his goblin persona in Thunderbolts being a psychotic manifestation), then he most certainly is devoid of empathy.
That just doesn't read to me as Machiavellian schemer angered losing a playing piece. I can see why it doesn't work if you're set on viewing Osborn as living in 24/7 mustache twirling mode, but i like the idea of Norman sympathizing with somebody who's got a super villain living in his head.
He was wrong about the Void and he was definitely doing it because he wanted ersatz-superman back on the job, but i don't think that he was entirely without sympathy and some degree of empathy for Bob.
If he's truly a psychopath (as opposed to his goblin persona in Thunderbolts being a psychotic manifestation), then he most certainly is devoid of empathy.
Notably: true psychopaths can have empathy, but only on an extremely limited scale. E.g. a person who could empathize with a celebrity they idolized but no one else would still be a psychopath (or rather, sociopath).
The only way I can personally rationalize Osborn being in power is that to the general populace, the Green Goblin simply isn't on their radar. Unless you live in New York and read the Daily Bugle, the roster of Spider-Man's villains just isn't something most people think about. Hearing he was this bad guy might be akin to hearing that your senator was once caught with the babysitter twenty years ago, something that might have happened, maybe it didn't. But now with Osborn shining his eat shit smile after killing the Skrull Queen, who cares?
That just doesn't read to me as Machiavellian schemer angered losing a playing piece. I can see why it doesn't work if you're set on viewing Osborn as living in 24/7 mustache twirling mode, but i like the idea of Norman sympathizing with somebody who's got a super villain living in his head.
He was wrong about the Void and he was definitely doing it because he wanted ersatz-superman back on the job, but i don't think that he was entirely without sympathy and some degree of empathy for Bob.
If he's truly a psychopath (as opposed to his goblin persona in Thunderbolts being a psychotic manifestation), then he most certainly is devoid of empathy.
My response to that one would be that Osborn is comic book crazy not text book psychotic, or alternately The Goblin is psychopathic, Osborn is just a total bastard.
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spookymuffin( ° ʖ ° )Puyallup WA Registered Userregular
"Norman you sure are a crazy murderer."
"Shut up"
"Also what is the deal with your hair?"
Best line of the book. I hate Norman's hair. Sideways cornrows, or whatever the fuck it is, it looks fucking stupid.
Anyone catch Ms Marvel? I've always liked Moonstone as the crazy manipulative bitch, but man does she shine in this issue.
It's hair that's very tightly-curly, and he's combed/oiled it so the coils hold together tightly. I've seen it in person (not on Norman, obv., but real world people) before.
Hmm, the next two Dark and Mighty Avengers issues are double shipping in June so no May release for either of them. Kind of an odd delay.
wirehead26 on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited May 2009
Slott is a slow writer, which is why Sandoval was on the last MA issue instead of Khoi Pham (Pham can be monthly but he needs to get the script in at a regular time, something Slott has been prone to not do).
Deodato is fast, and Bendis stockpiles scripts. Perhaps we'll be seeing Dark Avengers take on more of a 12 issue maxiseries role as Marvel realizes the concept can't go beyond that, and are changing the story to reflect that.
Well, the new Sinister Spiderman, starring Mac Gargan, and the new Woverine with Daken, will probably be the exact same thing as Ms. Marvel and Hawkeye are right now. "Hey, we're serial killers living a facade of heroism!"
Which I like because it takes the anti-hero archetype and totally revamps it into a secret villian as a hero motiff. It's a nice throwback to Baron Zemo's original Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil. We probably even will see a few of the bad guys getting entranced with the idea of being a genuine hero, and legitimately trying to reform (most likely not Bullseye though).
Witch_Hunter_84 on
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
We've already seen all of that in Thunderbolts, though. I don't see why we need multiple minis, each retreading the same idea at the same time.
Anyway, I can see Gargan trying to reform. The only reason he's evil is because of his mental health problems and the symbiote, and he's managed to subdue the symbiote. Unfortunately, his title is called The Sinister Spider-Man, so I doubt we'll be seeing that anytime soon.
We probably even will see a few of the bad guys getting entranced with the idea of being a genuine hero, and legitimately trying to reform (most likely not Bullseye though).
I think it was Bendis who hinted at something like this, but so far I don't see it happening. Moonstone's just been revealed as a sociopath who'd kill her own mother, Bullseye is a true psychopath who will kill civilians just for bugging him, and Reed has said that Gargan's just going to become an even bigger prick, as Osborn doesn't have any extra Spider-Men to replace him with on the team.
So that leaves Marvel Boy, Ares, and Norman himself; the first two are already anti-heroes, and Norman's shot down a passenger jet just to test Pepper Potts's new Iron Woman suit, as well as engaging in all kinds of moustache-twirling antics.
It's unfortunate, because I love the idea of a villain becoming charmed with the life of a hero, enjoying all the admiration, respect, and freedom that the lifestyle grants.
But then, I guess that's really just retreading the Busiek/Nicieza Thunderbolts.
To be fair, Bendis probably doesn't care what Norman is doing in other books, and so far he's acting pretty good (which is to say, not at all like himself) in Dark Avengers.
I can't remember what book it was, but I remember him saying something along the lines of "I'll be damned if you screw up my chance at helping America" to Bullseye or something, kind of implying his cold, black heart is sort of in the right place. Not sure where I'm remembering this from, though.
See, it's impossible for me to reconcile that with his decision to put Bullseye on the team in the first place. He could hire freaking Crossfire instead, or any of the other marksmen who aren't sadists.
And then there's his partnership with The Hood, though that makes sense if he's intending to betray him down the line.
He just wants Bullseye and The Hood where he has the best view of them. Bullseye is a far better marksman than Crossfire, thus his usefullness, plus Bullseye did right by him during the skrull invasion. The Hood is just too powerful to go up against without gaining too many enemies. He already has the true heroes gunning for his head and if he makes enemies on both sides of the line, he's gonna end up besieged from all angles pretty fast.
Witch_Hunter_84 on
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Dugan was a prisoner for the Skrulls for god knows how long. If anything, I believe that the government would have chosen Gyrich, and I was a little surprised that he is currently nowhere to be found during the dark reign.
But Osborn is a better choice because he's a better antagonist as the head of an evil cabal than Gyrich would ever be.
Actually the first arc of "The Pulse" (the not so great Alias follow up) had Jessica exposing Norman as the GG to the entire public. Also Nick Cage beat him up with Spider-mans help
I meant Luke Cage but whatever
After seeing him kick Leelee Sobieski in the face in Wicker Man, I knew Cage had some moves.
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Eh, like I said, Norman being a bloodthirsty psycho flying around dressed like a goblin trying to kill Spiderman is just a minor personality quirk in the Marvel Universe.
EDIT: Damnit Munch, you beat me to it.
So he didn't exactly go straight from his jail cell to the oval office or anything, it's been established for quite a while now that as far as the public and the government are concerned he's a good guy and his actions during SI just cemented that after the downfall of Stark.
Damnit, I didn't even catch that. Oh well, I'll let my terrible typo stand
He was director of the Thunderbolts program at the same time he was a member of the Commission on Superhuman Activities, which by its very nature gives him a ton of pull. The Thunderbolts were also the Initiative team for Colorado (which puts them under the CSA and the Superhuman Armed Forces--which were overseen by another CSA member and Cabinet-level official, Secretary Gyrich) and were deputized as Marshals for the purpose of bringing in fugitive superhumans (which puts them under the Marshals Service and thus Justice Department). So their oversight is muddled at best between two Cabinet departments and an independent commission. But Osborne was on that commission before Civil War, if I'm not mistaken, along with other such notable fuck-ups as Gyrich and Val Cooper.
But Tony Stark was not on the CSA, and not above it. He was appointed by the President, but in a symbolic appointment similar to how the President decides who becomes the head of the World Bank--because SHIELD and the Bank are both international organizations, but the U.S. has the largest stake in both so they get the most power. Stark never had any control over the Thunderbolts, the Initiative, or Osborne because his power within the United States was at best limited to what was granted to him and SHIELD in their deputization during/after Civil War to shore up operational and manpower shortcomings that the U.S. government had. The most power Stark had over the Initiative was that he was the supervisor of War Machine and SHIELD personnel, but even that only went so far before he and they got cockblocked by Gyrich early on.
Let's not kid ourselves. The U.S. government's role in superhuman affairs and activities has always been a catastrophic failure since the end of WW2.
Stark didn't actually answer to Osborne or the CSA. What happened was that after he ordered SHIELD to use a nuclear weapon on the Mandarin's facility outside of Omaha, the CSA and the UN General Assembly held a joint hearing into the incident because the UN oversees SHIELD but it happened in the U.S. ostensibly under the authority granted to the agency to operate within the U.S. by CSA or, well, let's assume CSA. But after all, the hearings were held in the General Assembly chamber. But as I recall if they had been charged with war crimes, it would have become an ICC/UN matter.
I still think that scene was merely Osborne manipulating Bob, and not wanting to help him at all. I mean, that's the point. You have to make him think you're on his side, and get him to open up. It's trust-building for later. Tony never did it with Bob, or at least well, and look at what was wasted as a result. Norman had to see that he had a superweapon living upstairs that no one ever used. But, no, I will never accept the idea that Norman has done anything with Bob out of any sort of magnanimity. He's using Bob as a weapon, and will do whatever it takes to keep Bob working for him.
He was wrong about the Void and he was definitely doing it because he wanted ersatz-superman back on the job, but i don't think that he was entirely without sympathy and some degree of empathy for Bob.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
If he's truly a psychopath (as opposed to his goblin persona in Thunderbolts being a psychotic manifestation), then he most certainly is devoid of empathy.
Notably: true psychopaths can have empathy, but only on an extremely limited scale. E.g. a person who could empathize with a celebrity they idolized but no one else would still be a psychopath (or rather, sociopath).
"Shut up"
"Also what is the deal with your hair?"
Idiot plot? Aren't most of them?
My response to that one would be that Osborn is comic book crazy not text book psychotic, or alternately The Goblin is psychopathic, Osborn is just a total bastard.
Best line of the book. I hate Norman's hair. Sideways cornrows, or whatever the fuck it is, it looks fucking stupid.
Anyone catch Ms Marvel? I've always liked Moonstone as the crazy manipulative bitch, but man does she shine in this issue.
Wii U NNID: MegaSpooky
It's hair that's very tightly-curly, and he's combed/oiled it so the coils hold together tightly. I've seen it in person (not on Norman, obv., but real world people) before.
It looks retarded.
Deodato is fast, and Bendis stockpiles scripts. Perhaps we'll be seeing Dark Avengers take on more of a 12 issue maxiseries role as Marvel realizes the concept can't go beyond that, and are changing the story to reflect that.
Do yourself a favor, don't pick up Hawkeye. I like it, but then again, I have been described as a twisted fuck.
Which I like because it takes the anti-hero archetype and totally revamps it into a secret villian as a hero motiff. It's a nice throwback to Baron Zemo's original Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil. We probably even will see a few of the bad guys getting entranced with the idea of being a genuine hero, and legitimately trying to reform (most likely not Bullseye though).
Anyway, I can see Gargan trying to reform. The only reason he's evil is because of his mental health problems and the symbiote, and he's managed to subdue the symbiote. Unfortunately, his title is called The Sinister Spider-Man, so I doubt we'll be seeing that anytime soon.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I think it was Bendis who hinted at something like this, but so far I don't see it happening. Moonstone's just been revealed as a sociopath who'd kill her own mother, Bullseye is a true psychopath who will kill civilians just for bugging him, and Reed has said that Gargan's just going to become an even bigger prick, as Osborn doesn't have any extra Spider-Men to replace him with on the team.
So that leaves Marvel Boy, Ares, and Norman himself; the first two are already anti-heroes, and Norman's shot down a passenger jet just to test Pepper Potts's new Iron Woman suit, as well as engaging in all kinds of moustache-twirling antics.
It's unfortunate, because I love the idea of a villain becoming charmed with the life of a hero, enjoying all the admiration, respect, and freedom that the lifestyle grants.
But then, I guess that's really just retreading the Busiek/Nicieza Thunderbolts.
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https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
And then there's his partnership with The Hood, though that makes sense if he's intending to betray him down the line.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
He'd have a better view of Bullseye if he cut his hands off and put him in jail.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Same thread title just New in front of it all, makes the most sense.