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[Best Korea] and the sinking of the Cheonan.

Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
edited July 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
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In March of this year the South Korean warship Cheonan was attacked and sunk along a disputed North/South maritime border, of it's 104 crew, 46 perished.

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An investigation was carried out by SK, the US, the UK, Sweden, Australia and Canada and its conclusion was published last week. Having raised the warship's wreck and scoured the ocean floor around the site of its destruction they found the remains of a CHT-02D torpedo of North Korean design. Furthermore, intelligence reports indicate that two NK submarines had departed a naval base three days prior to the attack.

From this the team concluded that North Korean naval forces had been responsible for the Cheonan's destruction.

This comes at an interesting time, Kim Jong Il has recently been to China looking for goodies to bolster his cash strapped regime. Bejing is probably the only government that can rein Kim in without the threat of war being thrown around.

South Korea has announced the following measures in response:
* Stopping inter-Korean trade
* Banning North Korean ships from using South Korean waterways or shortcuts
* Resuming "psychological warfare"
* Referring the case to the UN Security Council

The US Navy is now sending ships to the Korean peninsula to run more joint exercises with SK, focusing on submarine detection.

So, considering that they've now actually been caught red handed having murdered nearly four dozen people, will this escalate past mere sabre rattling?

Saint Madness on
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Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Pokemon Champion (retired) Ann ArborRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So, considering that they've now actually been caught red handed having murdered nearly four dozen people, will this escalate past mere sabre rattling?

    Hope not, it's the last thing the planet needs right now.

    enlightenedbum on
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • HenroidHenroid My keyboard is old. The desert!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I'm sure this is going to make for awesome politics USA side. I think South Korea took some fairly good measures all things considering, rather than deciding to start an actual conflict.

    Henroid on
    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
  • chidonachidona Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    US and S Korea are to conduct joint naval exercises:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10150379.stm

    Evidently an attempt to intimidate the North and re-emphasise whose side the US is on. China would find it real hard to side with N Korea in a full scale war, real hard.

    chidona on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    So, considering that they've now actually been caught red handed having murdered nearly four dozen people, will this escalate past mere sabre rattling?

    Hope not, it's the last thing the planet needs right now.

    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited May 2010
    I want China to actually bring the pain for once, they provide 90% of NK's energy and 80% of its consumer goods (source). It would be much better than months of pointless stand-off.
    I'm sure this is going to make for awesome politics USA side. I think South Korea took some fairly good measures all things considering, rather than deciding to start an actual conflict.

    Oh yeah I can't wait for McCain to trot out the "Why aren't we bombing them yet?" line.

    Saint Madness on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Pokemon Champion (retired) Ann ArborRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So, considering that they've now actually been caught red handed having murdered nearly four dozen people, will this escalate past mere sabre rattling?

    Hope not, it's the last thing the planet needs right now.

    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.

    Sure. Which matters in terms of geopolitics... how? I mean, so is the House of Saud.

    enlightenedbum on
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    So, considering that they've now actually been caught red handed having murdered nearly four dozen people, will this escalate past mere sabre rattling?

    Hope not, it's the last thing the planet needs right now.

    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.

    Sure. Which matters in terms of geopolitics... how? I mean, so is the House of Saud.

    Well, did the House of Saud sink a South Korean submarine and kill 46 South Koreans? Is it actively trying to acquire nukes and testing long range ballistic missiles for their delivery?

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.
    And South Korea would see millions of deaths in any war with North Korea. North Korean civilians will be further fucked.

    Couscous on
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    God, this is terrifying.

    MikeMan on
    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So, considering that they've now actually been caught red handed having murdered nearly four dozen people, will this escalate past mere sabre rattling?

    Hope not, it's the last thing the planet needs right now.

    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.

    Sure. Which matters in terms of geopolitics... how? I mean, so is the House of Saud.

    I'm confident that the human rights abuses going on there is not helping anyone. Also the possibility that their insane leader may one day go "WHARRBARGHL" and do something overtly aggressive with his indoctrinated army.

    VeritasVR on
    CoH_infantry.jpg
    Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
  • RichyRichy http://torchlightmedia.netRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
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    Why is there blue smoke behind Kim Jong-Il? It looks like he farted.



    There won't be a war. None of the countries surrounding North Korea want to deal with a sudden influx of poor starving war-displaced North Korean refugees.

    Richy on
    RichyFlag.gifsig.gif
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    We should probably avoid treating a border dispute as an open declaration of war.

    MKR on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.
    And South Korea would see millions of deaths in any war with North Korea. North Korean civilians will be further fucked.

    But how many people will die if North Korea acquires nukes?

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.
    And South Korea would see millions of deaths in any war with North Korea. North Korean civilians will be further fucked.

    But how many people will die if North Korea acquires nukes?

    Considering it already has nukes, 0 more than will happen if it uses its nukes now?

    Couscous on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.
    And South Korea would see millions of deaths in any war with North Korea. North Korean civilians will be further fucked.

    But how many people will die if North Korea acquires nukes?

    Considering it already has nukes, 0 more than will happen if it gets nukes now?

    Okay, let me rephrase that: how many people will die if they finally develop a delivery mechanism for said nukes?

    Right now, NK is a ticking bomb. It's only a matter of time before it explodes. It's not even a question of whether it will.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • HenroidHenroid My keyboard is old. The desert!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I want China to actually bring the pain for once, they provide 90% of NK's energy and 80% of its consumer goods (source). It would be much better than months of pointless stand-off.
    I'm sure this is going to make for awesome politics USA side. I think South Korea took some fairly good measures all things considering, rather than deciding to start an actual conflict.

    Oh yeah I can't wait for McCain to trot out the "Why aren't we bombing them yet?" line.

    There's a lot of innocent people in North Korea though. If China cuts off power or other resources, the NK government is going to absolutely hoard what is left. But then again, it might inspire the people to revolution? Which would be hard to do considering they're brainwashed to love their leader. It just seems super risky.

    As for McCain and co, yeah, that's going to be fun.

    Henroid on
    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Okay, let me rephrase that: how many people will die if they finally develop a delivery mechanism for said nukes?
    0 unless we invade.

    Couscous on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Anywhere else this would be considered an act of war, Seoul has to walk a tightrope considering the bumber of artillery batteries pointed at it.

    Saint Madness on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Okay, let me rephrase that: how many people will die if they finally develop a delivery mechanism for said nukes?
    0 unless we invade.

    Uh, do you genuinely believe that their leader is actually a rational actor? The country has been sitting in isolation for decades.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Pokemon Champion (retired) Ann ArborRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Yeah, but North Korea is actually truly evil.
    And South Korea would see millions of deaths in any war with North Korea. North Korean civilians will be further fucked.

    But how many people will die if North Korea acquires nukes?

    Considering it already has nukes, 0 more than will happen if it gets nukes now?

    Okay, let me rephrase that: how many people will die if they finally develop a delivery mechanism for said nukes?

    Right now, NK is a ticking bomb. It's only a matter of time before it explodes. It's not even a question of whether it will.

    Wait, you think NK will nuke Seoul/Tokyo/LA in some fantasy land just for the hell of it, knowing it will turn their entire country into a glass parking lot? Kim isn't exactly rational, but he's also not suicidal (you'll note, for example, the NK army is fed).

    This here is exactly the problem with the insane Bush rhetoric of geopolitics as a battle between good and evil.

    enlightenedbum on
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Okay, let me rephrase that: how many people will die if they finally develop a delivery mechanism for said nukes?
    0 unless we invade.

    Uh, do you genuinely believe that their leader is actually a rational actor? The country has been sitting in isolation for decades.

    He has been rational enough so far.

    Couscous on
  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Has there ever been a war between nuclear powers before?

    Melkster on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Okay, let me rephrase that: how many people will die if they finally develop a delivery mechanism for said nukes?
    0 unless we invade.

    Uh, do you genuinely believe that their leader is actually a rational actor? The country has been sitting in isolation for decades.

    He has been rational enough so far.

    o_O

    Sinking SK ships and openly testing long range ballistic missiles isn't exactly rational behavior, dude. What world are you living in?

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Sinking SK ships and openly testing long range ballistic missiles isn't exactly rational behavior, dude. What world are you living in?
    It is quite rational. Dick waving is very rational. The Cold War is pretty much one huge dick waving contest with the contestants occasionally slapping each other.

    Couscous on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Sinking SK ships and openly testing long range ballistic missiles isn't exactly rational behavior, dude. What world are you living in?
    it is quite rational. Dick waving is very rational.

    Against nuclear powers it is not.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Pokemon Champion (retired) Ann ArborRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Melkster wrote: »
    Has there ever been a war between nuclear powers before?

    Some Soviet/Chinese border conflicts, depends what you call the Kashmir situation.

    enlightenedbum on
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Sinking SK ships and openly testing long range ballistic missiles isn't exactly rational behavior, dude. What world are you living in?
    it is quite rational. Dick waving is very rational.

    Against nuclear powers it is not.

    Since when did SK have nukes?

    MKR on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Make no mistake: North Korea is not Iraq. It's leader was never supported by the US, and we have zero doubts that they actually possess and are actually planning to use nukes on targets within their reach.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Pokemon Champion (retired) Ann ArborRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Um, then why isn't Seoul already gone? It's kiiiiind of in reach!

    enlightenedbum on
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Sinking SK ships and openly testing long range ballistic missiles isn't exactly rational behavior, dude. What world are you living in?
    it is quite rational. Dick waving is very rational.

    Against nuclear powers it is not.

    Dick waving is the number 1 way to act against super powers and other nuclear powers. It is the best method.

    Couscous on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Make no mistake: North Korea is not Iraq. It's leader was never supported by the US, and we have zero doubts that they actually possess and are actually planning to use nukes on targets within their reach.

    The question being, what can they reach?

    Saint Madness on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    MKR wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Sinking SK ships and openly testing long range ballistic missiles isn't exactly rational behavior, dude. What world are you living in?
    it is quite rational. Dick waving is very rational.

    Against nuclear powers it is not.

    Since when did SK have nukes?

    Not SK. I'm talking about testing long range inter-continental ballistic missiles, which was done to provoke the United States.

    The latest submarine sinking, on the other hand, is an act of overt aggression because they can actually get away with it without getting nuked.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • Cedar BrownCedar Brown Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Melkster wrote: »
    Has there ever been a war between nuclear powers before?

    Perhaps some small scale conflict between India and Pakistan but I don't know.

    Cedar Brown on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Make no mistake: North Korea is not Iraq. It's leader was never supported by the US, and we have zero doubts that they actually possess and are actually planning to use nukes on targets within their reach.

    We have plenty of doubts. A nuke wouldn't allow them to rape South Korea anymore than their zerg rush of artillery would be able to.

    Couscous on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Make no mistake: North Korea is not Iraq. It's leader was never supported by the US, and we have zero doubts that they actually possess and are actually planning to use nukes on targets within their reach.

    The question being, what can they reach?

    Not much yet, unless we keep waiting for them to develop a long range delivery mechanism (or, in an even more nightmare-ish scenario, sell those nukes to terrorists who can then sneak them into any country they want).

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Make no mistake: North Korea is not Iraq. It's leader was never supported by the US, and we have zero doubts that they actually possess and are actually planning to use nukes on targets within their reach.

    We have plenty of doubts. A nuke wouldn't allow them to rape South Korea anymore than their zerg rush of artillery would be able to.

    Those millions of deaths you're trying to avoid seem very possible if they nuke Seoul.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Not SK. I'm talking about testing long range inter-continental ballistic missiles, which was done to provoke the United States.
    For something similar, see:
    Every fucking third world country that doesn't like the USA. For a recent example, see Iran. There is also Liberia.

    Couscous on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Not SK. I'm talking about testing long range inter-continental ballistic missiles, which was done to provoke the United States.
    For something similar, see:
    Every fucking third world country that doesn't like the USA. For a recent example, see Iran. There is also Liberia.

    Neither Iran nor Liberia has nukes.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Make no mistake: North Korea is not Iraq. It's leader was never supported by the US, and we have zero doubts that they actually possess and are actually planning to use nukes on targets within their reach.

    We have plenty of doubts. A nuke wouldn't allow them to rape South Korea anymore than their zerg rush of artillery would be able to.

    Those millions of deaths you're trying to avoid seem very possible if they nuke Seoul.

    They can already destroy Seoul. Atomic bombs wouldn't allow them to kill that many more people in Seoul than the 10000 pieces of artillery aimed at Seoul.

    Couscous on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Not SK. I'm talking about testing long range inter-continental ballistic missiles, which was done to provoke the United States.
    For something similar, see:
    Every fucking third world country that doesn't like the USA. For a recent example, see Iran. There is also Liberia.

    Neither Iran nor Liberia has nukes.

    What does that have to do with provoking nuclear powers? Both countries provoked the US shitloads of time. Are you going to deny the US is a nuclear power?

    Couscous on
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