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[Eve Online Special Edition] Expansions, Mac/Linux Clients, and newbie drive

runaway_pancakerunaway_pancake Registered User regular
edited September 2008 in Games and Technology
In celebration of Eve’s newest expansion, Revelations III, we’re back in G&T to get the word out about new improvements and to let our Mac and Linux friends know that they’re no longer left out in the cold! See post 2 for details.

IF YOU WANT TO JOIN THE PENNY ARCADE CORP, SCROLL TO THE MERCH INDUSTRIAL BANNER AND READ THE TOP SECTION.
This thread is for expansion discussion and newbie recruitment. More general discussion goes here.

Atari Mu: "No more than two weeks into the game, I found myself in the middle of a massive ambush of seven enemy capital ships. Being in a tiny ship myself, I rushed to the front-lines to try and do my part. I exploded in about thirty seconds.

It was glorious."
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Gentlemen, welcome to The Great War... in Space. Welcome to EVE Online.

EVE Online is an MMO set in the space region called New Eden, irrevocably separated from Earth after an inexplicable incident involving the Eve Gate, the one connection between New Eden and Earth.

The game world spans thousands of solar systems, divided into several regions of varying security level from 1.0 to 0.0 -- the former being highly patrolled by NPC police, the latter being lawless territory for the largest player corporations to war over. It would take several hours at best to travel from one side of the galaxy to another.

The game world is vast, not only in a spatial sense, but in a population sense. Eve Online is entirely unsharded -- every single player shares the same game world, with between 15,000 - 35,000 players online at any given time.

Besides the sheer size of the gamespace, there are several things which divide EVE from the rest of the MMOs on the market, and make it something truly special.

Freedom: There are no goals except those which you make for yourself. There are no professions, no classes, no titles that the game assigns your character based on your decisions on character creation. You are what you do. No more, no less. Corp-level gameplay is based on a sandbox philosophy – players are free to run the economy, build infrastructure, forge alliances, and wage wars.

Character Progression: In Eve, everyone learns new skills at almost exactly the same rate as everyone else -- in real-time, not based on killing NPCs. Furthermore, skills continue to train while you're offline, so even if you have to take a two-week hiatus, you're still going to progress in skill assuming you set a sufficiently long-term skill to train. So set a skill, and then go fly around doing whatever you want. Or log out and go to the bar. Or set one of the longer skills to train, and take a few weeks off -- when you get back, you'll have that painfully long skill out of the way.

The skill system is deep AND broad; to learn to do everything at peak efficiency would take something on the order of at least seven years -- and by then there'll be more to train anyway, rest assured. On the other hand, the broadness of skills available allow a relatively new player to become proficient in a short time by focusing on a particular race's ships, particular ship classes, on trading, or on mining and production.

The Stakes Matter: PVP in Eve matters because there are stakes involved. When you lose your ship, you lose your ship. There's insurance, but that will often only cover most of the hull cost (on tech 2 ships, it won't even cover much of that). Modules, cargo, special implants all can be destroyed. And if your modules/cargo weren't destroyed, rest assured your opponent will almost certainly loot them from your wreck. But that's just on a personal level -- PVP has greater ramifications on a corporation and alliance level, as player groups numbering in the thousands war over 0.0 territory, the richest areas in the game. Losing a battle might not only mean the loss of your ship -- it might mean the loss of your home, whereas victory will propel your corp to new heights of power.

The Great War: It’s no exaggeration to say that there has never been a more momentous time to start playing Eve. Political tensions and maneuvering have culminated in a conflict whose scope is unprecedented in the game’s four-and-a-half year history. On one side: The Band of Brothers alliance and their various vassal entities, once considered the most powerful force in the game. On the other: The Coalition, a collection of many alliances who have joined together for the purpose of removing BoB from conquerable space. Together, the two sides encompass tens of thousands of pilots, and neither will rest until the other is annihilated. As a member of the Goonswarm alliance, a major Coalition entity, Merch Industrial is an active participant in this war which will completely reshape the political landscape.

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JOINING MERCH INDUSTRIAL
Quick step-by-step guide to joining. READ THIS.

0) Create a trial and post in this thread so we know you're coming. Mention your in-game name.
1) Do the tutorial -- stop after the first mission or two, but do everything up through that.
2) Dock in an office station of the corp (listed below). Click the “Offices” tab on the right and Apply to Merch Industrial. Mention your PA forum name in your application.
3) Wait to be accepted.
4) Once accepted, new tabs on your mailbox will show up -- Corp and Alliance. Read the corp mails by Rhonyn Peacemaker for instructions on joining our forums. To Evemail Rhonyn, right click his name in your mailbox and click Send Message -- DO NOT REPLY TO THE CORP MAIL ITSELF, OR YOU WILL BE SENDING THE MAIL TO THE ENTIRE CORP. ALSO DO NOT SEND OR REPLY TO ANY MAILS IN THE ALLIANCE MAILBOX.

5) While waiting for forums access, say “Hi” in corp chat so that we can call you a dirty spy. Join the MRCHI-Help channel to ask any newbie questions you have or to otherwise get help from vets that are free.
6) Once you've been approved on our forums, read the "NEWBIES READ THIS" sticky in our General forums, which will also have a LOT of resources -- info on newbie programs we run like Mentors, frigate caches, newbie ops, guides to help you get going, and links to other great Eve information.

While you work on that, join the PennyArcade channel in-game. This channel is only lightly used but is open to all Penny Arcade Eve players.

MRCHI Offices:
Warouh VI - Moon 5 - Joint Harvesting Mineral Reserve (Amarr)
Ishisomo VIII - Propel Dynamics Factory (Caldari) -- NOT Ishisomo VII - Moon 14 - Propel Dynamics Factory
Slays VII - Moon 3 - Center for Advanced Studies School (Gallente)
Nourvukainen VII - Moon 4 - Caldari Construction Productions Plant (Caldari)
Aralgrund I - Moon 1 - Freedom Extension Storage (Minmatar)

If you find that one of these has been closed just post here so I can update the listing.

Why didn't I get accepted yet / I got rejected you guys are jerks
If you are rejected, or you application is not processed, please consider the following:

1) Did you act like a faggot?
2) Were you rude or abrasive in your application?
3) Did you do something to piss Rhonyn Peacemaker off?
If any of these are "yes," please feel free to fuck off.

Otherwise, just send a quick ingame evemail to Rhonyn Peacemaker telling him what your situation is (in a concise manner) and he will be more than happy to approve your application. Do not send multiple applications, or multiple evemails within a 24 hour period.
In conclusion, anyone with an active PA forums account is welcome to join the PA corp, assuming you don't do monumentally stupid things that piss off the recruitment director. So be a little patient, and be polite and concise if you Evemail him.

About Merch Industrial

What began as a small industrial corp that was barely able to defend itself has evolved into something quite grand. A year ago we were a bunch of know-nothing noobs struggling along on the fringe of NPC space, working to grow our strength against pirates looking for easy prey. After being taken in by the Goonswarm alliance (from the Something Awful forums) we were shown our first taste of true 0.0 space. After living, building, and fighting alongside the goons for many months, we eventually became an official member corp of the alliance. We now take part in all areas of alliance activity, fueling the war effort with our resources, manufacturing, and combat pilots.

As a corporation, we produce a wide variety of non-capital vessels, and several capital-class models as well. Many individuals in the corporation are quite the burgeoning industrialists themselves, producing modules and ships for sale either in the alliance’s 0.0 territory. There are younger members who earn their way up by salvaging NPC wrecks left by older “ratters” (NPC-hunters). There are mining specialists, who can strip asteroid belts dry in a blink, and haulers who can take that sweet ore to a production facility. The PVP wing has full-time combat pilots and many more part-timers, constantly fighting our enemies as part of the Goonswarm fleet. Most of us participate in many or all of these activities -- the multifaceted gameplay of Eve allows you to give it all a try, and many of us do.

The course of the Great War has been kind to our side, with much enemy territory being captured and divvied up among the various Coalition entities. In November alone three whole enemy regions have been conquered and assimilated. Out of these areas, Merch Industrial has claimed a former BoB station as our share of the spoils. As our first corp-owned 0.0 space, this is a major milestone for us.

Eve can be a dangerous place for a new player, but with a bit of readily available assistance from older members you can be on the way to massive profit in no time. Do not be afraid to ask questions, whether it is in this thread or in-game. Many older players are more than happy to help you in whatever way possible, whether it's advice or a bit of cash to get started. We might be busy at any given moment, but we WILL help you adjust to the realities of 0.0 space if you ask for our advice and assistance. Be sure to read your corp mails for more information on getting settled in.

We strongly encourage you to take part in our 0.0 operations in Goonspace so that you can get the most out of your initial Eve experience. Don’t head out to our 0.0 space before you’re a Merch though, as you’ll likely be shot on sight and won’t be able to dock at any station. Instead, you'll want to wait until you've been accepted into the corp so we can tell you how to podjump (the best way to get to our 0.0 headquarters), toss a few ISK your way so you can get started out here, and help you pick a playstyle as well as find someone to shoot at.
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Space is divided into three general security levels on a scale from 1.0 to 0.0. 1.0 to 0.5 is considered high security Empire space, where players who commit aggressive acts against other players will swiftly and inevitably have their ships destroyed by the NPC police organization CONCORD. High security space is not a total guarantor of safety, but it's close.

Note for prospective MRCHI members: We are almost always at war with various other corps and alliances. Declared war participants can shoot each other anywhere, including high-sec space. Often this makes high-sec more dangerous than our 0.0 space.

0.4 to 0.1 is considered low security Empire space, where aggressive acts can take place without CONCORD retribution, but your personal security status will dive and automated turrets around stations and gates will open fire for a time.

0.0 is lawless space, with absolutely no retribution for aggression. It is where the real meaty stuff happens, and it is where the Great War is taking place. It also has the best resources in terms of NPC bounties and asteroids to mine in the game. It's also completely player-run. Players hold sovereignty over space, and players make the wars.

And the current war is the biggest one to-date. For a general idea, let's take a look at the map, which is automatically updated daily.

Click map for the latest version.
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The multicolored blobs show the territorial holdings of the many different alliances in 0.0. In the southwest, we have Band of Brothers, Firmus Ixion, Mercenary Coalition, and other members of “The Greater BoB Community,” our enemies in the war. Eastward from there lies our space, marked “Goonswarm,” and that of our Coalition allies. The little squares designate stations, which are the most strategically valuable targets in large-scale warfare.

So who are these allies you mentioned?

GOONSWARM
This is the alliance that we are a member of, formed by and predominantly made up of Goons from the Something Awful forums. Beyond wiping out BoB, the Goons’ aspirations are to create a utopia of faggotry and lols for themselves and their buddies. The Goons try to not take Eve too seriously, and spend much of their time mocking pubbies who nerd-rage over their antics. This is how the goons described themselves at this year's Eve fanfest.

RED ALLIANCE and TAU CETI FEDERATION
As Goonswarm’s closest friends, these two alliances complete the power bloc known as the Red Swarm Federation (RSF). RA is a bunch of angry Russians that may very well be the best capital force in the game. Their resilience is phenomenal -- once forced back into a single system by a coalition numbering in the thousands, RA has rebounded and crushed enemy after enemy over the last year. Don’t piss these guys off. TCF, composed of French-speaking corps, is also scarily successful, usually going quiet for a few weeks and then showing up out of nowhere to do something fucking awesome. It’s not surprising to log in and find that TCF has taken a whole constellation.

Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
A rather laid-back group, as their name may suggest. They are led by a guy who is famous for losing unimaginably valuable ships in ridiculous ways and starting major wars while drunk. They are a valuable Coalition member, standing up to a brutal all-out BoB offensive over recent months.

And, uh, what about our enemies?

Well, unfortunately you don't become involved in galactic affairs without gaining the enmity of a few of the big boys. Of major note:

BAND OF BROTHERS
Band of Brothers is the archenemy of Goonswarm and the main hostile entity in the Great War. Once heralded as the undisputed most powerful alliance in the game, BoB has been slowly ground down by over nine months of total war, but are hardly out for the count. The Great War will not end until they are removed from their home regions.

Various tenants and allies of BoB
The allies and tenants (often referred to as "pets") of Band of Brothers are too numerous to list here. The most prominent is Mercenary Coalition, a “neutral” mercenary group that controls a section of BoB space in exchange for two weeks of free mercenary work each year. MC has taken several contracts from BoB during the war and executed them with effectiveness, although recently they have been attempting to distance themselves from BoB. The remaining allies are simple renters of BoB territory, and are typically used as ineffectual speedbumps to delay our march towards the BoB home regions.

Update Dec. 26: The Coalition is now driving into several areas of BoB's original space, and the results are striking. Most of BoB's allies and tenants have deemed the war to be lost and have disbanded or fled BoB space. Mercenary Coalition has turned on BoB and started sieging their space, obviously wanting to jump on the winning side and get a share of the spoils. The only remaining ally of any importance is Firmus Ixion (Dec 31 - welp, FIX just died too).


So I'd like to play... What do I do?

Free fourteen day trials are available by clicking this sentence. No emailing other members necessary, no credit card necessary.

But I have some questions!

Keep reading - below are some flashy videos and screenshots, answers to some frequently asked questions, guides to help with character creation, and some comments on various aspects of the game by MRCHI members.

runaway_pancake on
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Posts

  • runaway_pancakerunaway_pancake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    NEW: THE “REVELATIONS 3” EXPANSION

    Eve gets new content very frequently compared to most MMO’s. CCP makes a point of releasing an expansion patch every 6-8 months, with smaller balancing and bugfix changes in between. All new content is completely free, and the next major batch is expected in late November.

    The Revelations 3 expansion’s main feature is an all-new graphics engine, replacing the aging technology that has supported the game since 2003. Dubbed “Trinity,” the new engine takes advantage of modern video card capabilities and supports DirectX 9. This, along with brand new models and textures, advances Eve’s visuals by several years in one fell swoop. These new features are optional, however, so those of you with older systems can use a less advanced version which has lower system requirements.

    Official Trinity Trailer

    Viola!
    before_medium.jpg after_medium.jpg

    Rev3 isn’t all about graphics, though. CCP is addressing a long-time complaint by beginning to introduce customizability into the UI. You can now move around windows such as the overview, drone bay, and fleet window. Certain features have also been compacted and merged for less clutter (Additional info). There are a myriad of other features such as new ships and corp management tools.

    Mac and Linux Users: Your Day Has Come
    Earlier this month CCP released the long-awaited Mac and Linux-compatible clients. They can be found here, along with a Q/A blog for more info.
    Since a lot of people have asked: To get the Apple Client to run in a window press AppleKey+Enter


    I'm not sold. gf-colbert.gif
    Then I should post some videos.

    OFFICIAL VIDEOS
    EVE Online Intro - explains the New Eden backstory
    EVE Never Fades - a classic, general trailer
    EVE Online: Revelations - trailer for the first Revelations expansion, released November 2006
    EVE Online: Revelations 2 - trailer for the second Revelations expansion, released June 19th

    By the way: all footage is from the game client, with the exception of the obvious paintings in the intro and Eve Never Fades. All models, all lighting, everything. All of those shots are 100% possible in-game. And this will run on computers 4 years old.

    GOONSWARM VIDEOS
    Stahlregen is a pimp and his videos are awesome. He makes monthly recruiting videos, documenting Goonswarm's latest exploits -- you don't need to know all the entities mentioned, but it will give you an idea of how things can develop from month to month in the larger Alliance warfare picture.

    November: Goonswarm allies with Red Alliance, invades Scalding Pass. Along with February and March, one of my favorite Eve videos.
    December
    February: Goonswarm and allies attack Lotka Volterra, their nearest enemy and long-time foe of Red Alliance. The LV War marks the beginning of MRCHI’s involvement with Goonswarm
    March: Galaxy in Flames The first full month of the Great War. Goonswarm and allies finish killing LV and consolidate their space, while setting their eyes on Band of Brothers.
    Goonfleet: Red Swarm Federation: The tide of the war turns after BoB’s spring offensive is beaten back. Goonswarm and allies retake the initiative and begin the march westward towards the BoB home regions.

    UNCUT TITAN VIDEOS
    This is the destruction of Band of Brother’s flagship in June, the first Titan to be killed while the pilot was actually at the controls. For reference, Titans take months to build, months to train for, and require a staggering amount of money and logistical effort to complete. Merch member Hrin is the pilot who decloaked the Avatar-class Titan after the pilot, Shrike, had fired his Doomsday Device, which led to Goonswarm tackling him and Goonswarm + RA capitals taking him down (see further down for an account of this battle by Hrin).

    Red Alliance: Preved Shrike - shot by a RA dreadnought pilot, with awesome music by E-Nomine.
    Goonswarm - shot by a GS covert ops pilot, with Goonswarm fleet teamspeak in the background.

    Wait, I have a question!

    Here's a brief FAQ.

    If you've got newbie questions about skills, fittings, and all sorts of other things that take a bit of explaining, join the channels mentioned in the OP or check out MuddBudd's Newbie Thread.

    Those videos look awesome! Do you fly your ship with a joystick or what?
    Nope, sorry. Eve isn't a twitch game (although fast reflexes do sometimes come into play). You navigate through clicking in space or various buttons on the UI.

    So since you "level up" based on how long you've been playing rather than poopsocking to grind NPCs, a newbie's never going to be any good right? I shouldn't even bother!
    Not true at all. Winning a PVP fight in Eve is primarily about strategy -- choosing the right ship and modules for whatever the expected fight is in advance, closing range or keeping or opponent at a distance, maintaining a high transversal to avoid being shot, the ability to choose your spots rather than engage in a near unwinnable fight, etc. When you take part in gangs of 20, 50, or hundreds of other players, these tactics become increasingly complex. Larger ships don’t automatically make smaller ones obsolete – everything has a role to play in the fleet, including you newbies!

    Furthermore, skill levels have diminishing returns. If a basic skill gives you a 5% bonus to X attribute per level trained, then you can train it up to Level IV quite quickly (perhaps a day or two at the most). While training it to V might take 4 days (or much longer for advanced skills), that last level still only gives the elder player an additional 5% bonus. This means you can become almost as effective as an older player relatively quickly in a given skill. Factor in the immense number of areas to train in, and you can specialize in a given field to become the equal of much older characters.

    So all I see in these videos are spaceships. Do you ever get to walk around or anything?
    Not as of yet -- right now, you ARE your spaceship. However, CCP has announced that characters will be able to walk in stations when docked in some future expansion (see the demo).

    Am I going to have to pay for these expansion packs? It sounds like there have been a lot of them.
    Nope -- CCP releases expansion packs for free, like any other patch. The game is also fairly cheap; after your 14 day free trial, you can activate the game for $20 which includes your first month of game time, with the standard $15 per month afterwards (less if you pay for multiple months in advance).

    So I'm ready to make my character. Got any tips?

    The primary thing to keep in mind is that you should toy around and read some of this content before committing to a character. It might be very beneficial to reroll your character after your two-week trial, once you have a better idea of what interests you in the game; on the other hand, rerolling your character after several months is a huge waste. So use your trial to test things out -- you've got three characters per account (you can train one at a time) so roll a few characters out, test the races, and read up. Once you're ready to commit to a character, choose your name and portrait carefully -- you'll be stuck with them for good.

    /!\CHARACTER CREATION 101 INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO /!\

    We're also going to rip off the Goonswarm Wiki, because their character creation guides are fantastic. Entries #1-5 on the main page are publicly viewable and incredibly useful for new players.

    GOONSWARM WIKI



    Next: Comments from Merch members about Eve.


    If you're still not sure Eve's for you, or you just want some more stories from the front, here are some comments from Merch members on the crazy shit you can do in Eve.

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    Hrin (hazywater on PA), our heroic Titan decloaker:
    46dp is a well known place to many of us. It is a crossroads, where Detorid meets Teneferis. One jump south from 46dp is 9-9, a station system held by BoB. North lies a wasteland until you reach KOS territory. East of 46dp is Detorid, specifically 77s. Goon territory. Bat country. 46dp is no man's land, a place of death and the supernatural -- ironically held by Red Alliance, currently.

    I was involved in a large fleet battle in 9-9 where I lost a battleship and cruiser for the glory of the Swarm. BoB won that battle with heavy losses, but it was a victory nonetheless. After the battle I was in 46dp with an interceptor -- a Claw to be precise. I was 50 km off the gate with a group of frigates and cruisers holding there as both recon and skirmishers in preparation of another offensive. I was holding so far off the gate so I would have a perfect bead on any ships that came through and tried to cloak: to decloak them I needed to see them and align myself on them quickly. The gate flashes. Seeing this, I prime my MWD. Some cheap cruiser pops up 30 km away or so. I both scramble and ram him in an attempt to keep him from warping off.

    However, warping was not his intention.

    He pops a cyno shortly before vanishing in a cloud of debris. Shrike enters local. With a sigh, I align on some random planet. Shrike warps to a position 150km off the gate and Teamspeak goes apeshit. The majority of the gang jumps into 9-9, while I sit there watching the Titan. Streaks of white light clothe the Avatar now, pulsing and expanding. I warp off, not wishing to enjoy Shrike's hospitality. His offering fills the starfield behind me with a great white light. Making a U-turn at the planet, I warp back to the gate to find the wrecks of idiots scattered about. [Fleet Commander] Sesfan gives the order: "Shrike cloaked, find him." Easy words, but while a titan is large, space is much larger. As I MWD to where I think he was, a name pops on up on my overview. At first I think it's a BoB gang jumping in and I'm way out of position.

    But no, it was Shrike and he's WAY TOO GOD DAMN CLOSE TO ME.

    His Avatar appears next to me, his cloak rendered useless by my presence. Frantically, I make shot upon him while I burn off, not wishing to get smartbombed. Teamspeak goes to shit again. Seconds later interdictors surround the Avatar, dropping warp interdiction spheres. Local jumps as the fleet stationed in 77s joins us. BoB ships in 9-9 scramble to get to 46dp and get those interdictors off of Shrike, including motherships. The battle is massive. Every Goon and Goon ally who can be there is there, in whatever he flies. Massive beams rip into Shrike's Avatar from dreadnaughts. Explosions ripple across the ship, from both missiles and friendly pilots who give their ships to Shrike in an attempt to block his path. Interceptors dogfight between the gate and Shrike, trying to destroy and protect the interdictors, respectively. The Goon support fleet forms a gauntlet between the gate and Shrike, daring any BoB ships to run it. BoB does run it and miniature battles rage with the titan as their backdrop, their prize.

    To a thunderous cacophony, the battle ends. A once proud and majestic buttplug is rendered salvageable; its pilot killed and the corpse taken as a trophy.

    Zoe Sedai (OptimusWang on PA) on small gang warfare:
    Huge fleets aren't for everybody, and they certainly aren't for me. Between the lag, the boredom, and the chances of getting hit with a Doomsday weapon, I was finally pushed to find a better form of PvP. What I found was small-gang raiding.

    Don't let the term fool you, this has no resemblance to a raid in WoW. There is nothing like jumping into a system with 100+ hostile ships, making a few lightning strikes to take out the soft targets, then burning halfway across the region with a few dozen pissed off pilots right on your tail. Where fleets are full of tediousness and boredom, good small-gang fights are a spike of adrenaline to the heart.

    When I flew with Anarchy Empire, we specialized in taking out superior numbers with a combination of strategy, teamwork, and coordination. Laying waste to the opposing groups, often with 2-to-1 or 3-to-1 odds when we flew as an alliance was the norm, usually doing so in the enemy's backyard. When flying with just a friend or two, we were constantly chipping away at their industrial backbone until their production ground to a halt. You could literally watch the same pilot come out once in a battleship, the next time in a battle cruiser, and every time after that in a cruiser or frig. At the end of our campaign against SMASH/Roadkill, they were down to 4 combat corps (we were originally outnumbered 4-to-1) and zero production corps. Zero.

    It's a David and Goliath fight, and damn does it feel good to knock the big guy down. Now go x up to shoot some people.

    Trevor Reznik (StormyWaters on PA) on working with Goonswarm on the front lines:
    I decided to play EVE after finding out about Merch Industrial and their relation to Goonswarm. I've played other MMOs in the past and done small gang/solo PKing, but I was very interested in actual territory holding that EVE offered, aka PvP with a purpose. Thus, I joined up, and have tried to PvP every day I'm online. You can see how successful I am by being far and away the #1 loser in Merch, with 81 deaths in 164 days played (.49 deaths/day).

    But in between dying, I've been having a lot of fun and helping to accomplish goals. I've aided in establishing forward bases in enemy systems, forcing them to fall back and defend what they thought was safe. I've been in small gangs of 5, trying to pick off solo targets, and in fleets of over 200, killing a Titan, blowing up a freighter full of goods, or destroying enemy capital ships that were sieging systems. Not every fight has been won, but enough have.

    Most importantly, we're on the underdog's side in this fight. When I first started playing, I was very worried that I was on the winning side, which at the time was in the process of steamrolling everything in its path. Two of the five largest alliances had been killed by the Goons in the time just before & after I joined, and I was worried another would quickly fall. Thankfully, that didn't happen, and BoB has proven to be a strong enough enemy to take systems from us. However, that's changing, and by our efforts we have the ability to forever alter the landscape of EVE. Merch pilots make up between 10 and 20 percent of many of the fleets, and our participation does matter, even if we're relative newbies to the game like me.


    Angelus Damelon (Madtown on PA) on Black Ops work in hostile territory:
    I'm relatively new to working with force recons, but I can already say it is my favorite style of PVP that I've experienced in Eve. While suicide gangs of frigates are a blast, and massive fleet ops are epic when lag subsides, Black Ops work is perfect for those who enjoy working in small gangs -- pop in like a ninja, wreck some poor miner's day, and then disappear again.

    The main goal of black ops work is to grief enemies in their homes, preventing their logistics and their moneymakers from earning money and moving materials that keep the rent paid and the lights on. You spend most of your time cloaked, lying in wait to catch a stray pilot -- and when the right situation hits, you decloak, shut down his weapons, lock him down, and plink away. By the time support can arrive, he's already dead and you've warped off to safety. Even if you're not actively doing anything, your mere presence in a system can lock it down as pilots are afraid to venture out of the station.

    What makes black ops work so exciting is the strategy involved. You're flying around in an essentially untanked, expensive-as-fuck cruiser, which means one screwup and your ship is going to melt. This means you pick your targets carefully, always cautious of potential traps. It means knowing when to abandon a potential kill, and when you can kill that bait ship before his support can arrive.


    Tasshik Soma (strangemusic on PA) on skill and role specialization:
    The idea of hooking up with Merch was what rekindled my interest in EVE after a completely shitty time in the Trial Account noobcorp. I've been active for five months, and in those months the main benefit to hanging out with MerchI and the Goons has been the establishment of goals and a sense that my actions aren't just a grind to get some cool-looking gear. I'd be aimlessly acquiring money for no reason if not for the progression of the Goonfleet/BoB conflict. There is a huge demand for tactically important ships like Interdictors, Covert Ops and the like: because of this demand, the training time invested in those ships doesn't seem pointless, and this makes the game infinitely more fun. For example, I hope to be flying with a small, dedicated Bomber group in a few weeks and am training for that specific role.

    In my opinion, Merch has a unique position in the whole Goonswarm structure: we can hop down to Teneferis to knock heads with rapacious BoB gangs and blow up their astronomically expensive Titan, then kick back and make some money and do other stuff whenever we feel like it. Again, this keeps the game from being boring or frustrating, and you can specialize in what you find interesting.


    Niobe Turantulov (Blutraserei on PA) on... shooting bitches, I guess:
    I signed up for Eve's 14 day trial back in February. I fiddled around with it and was fairly entertained. Once SpaceDrake (Riese Blecja) and I started talking, I moved promptly out to Hoshoun and he took me on a ratting run the next day -- where I ratted with him and he got me killed by a Nosdomi. Within that same week I was ratting in a Vexor with decent efficiency and mining at my own leisure. I'm pretty sure I broke my first 10-20mil ISK within that week. The Merch is an awesome fleet to fly with, and even if you aren't flying with them the corp chat is enough if you socialize well. I have yet to get my first 1v1 killmail, but I'm well on my way as I am currently flying a Tier 2 tank fit Myrmidon (ololrapestick).

    The game is versatile as hell, and joining a good corp is a very good idea. If you don't, chances are you will become a pubbie. Do not do this. Pubbies are fags and are shot on sight. The learning curve is steep. Chances are you and that shitty bicycle you rode in on will hit that mailbox at the bottom of the hill. But stick with it. The feeling of shooting and blowing shit up in PvP is fun as hell, and when you get to the point where you can shrug off a ship loss and then unwrap your other six pack of Battlecruisers and go right back to pushing someone's face in is when you and the game will harmonize.

    This game is not for faggots. This is PvP on the largest scale. This is a man's game. This is Eve.


    Gihgehls (Gihgehls on PA) on being a chill Merch:
    I've been in Merch for about 9 months, and I played Eve solo for about a year before that. I don't have too much time to play, but that works out okay for me because of a few things. First, the real-time skill training system means I make progress while I'm not online. Second, Merch is a great alliance with no playtime requirements. We are large enough that there is always something going on, yet small enough to still feel like a family. If I just want to jump on for a few minutes and kill a few NPCs, I can do that. If I want to stay on all weekend and take part of glorious operations with dozens of friendly ships, I can do that too.

    That's all pilot. See you in space!

    runaway_pancake on
  • BecomingBecoming Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Everyone should play this game.

    Becoming on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Becoming wrote: »
    Everyone should play this game.
    Quotin' 'dis.

    electricitylikesme on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Hell yes. EVE may have had its fobiles over the years but it's still the best MMO on the market today. Nothing can compare to the scope of EVE and the freedom it allows. Nothing.

    Sign up today and get ye buttes to E-PROS, our personally own star system. We are in the process of turning it into one of the biggest industrial hubs in all of EVE, starting with upgrading its production capacities to "holy God" levels.

    Also I like seeing how much of my old thread survives in the new one :P

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • BecomingBecoming Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Does anyone else love the name of our system?

    Becoming on
  • SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Always wanted to get into this, couldnt get past a few days though. Willing to give it another whirl though, I think I was just approaching the game wrong.
    So whens that new revelations come out? I didnt see in the OP.

    Smashism on
  • MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    I wish there was an MMO forum for these.

    Hey, cool man, I didn't know you were a mod. Welcome to the team. Oh wait.

    When the MMO forum was created, it was decided that the EVE guys, and whoever else, could get periodic guild recruitment threads in the main G&T forum to remind the userbase who doesn't normally give a shit about MMOs that they exist. Since EVE has a huge expansion coming out soon with a full graphics revamp, they chose to do it now. This thread is fine where it is, and now is as good a time as any to get into EVE.

    Now someone tell deadtear to reactivate my fucking forum account. I reactivated but I'm stuck in Venal.

    Monoxide on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Monoxide wrote: »

    Now someone tell deadtear to reactivate my fucking forum account. I reactivated but I'm stuck in Venal.

    That shouldn't be a problem? Razor should be blue to Goonswarm.

    This probably belongs more in EVE General Discussion thataway, though.:arrow:

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • StoverStover Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Monoxide wrote: »
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    I wish there was an MMO forum for these.

    Hey, cool man, I didn't know you were a mod. Welcome to the team. Oh wait.

    Oh snap.


    Anyway, the best advice here is to join Merchi, go to our home system (E-PR0S) and buy all the tech II shield equipment you can.

    I promise this is good advice.

    Stover on
    outoftheloop.jpg
  • SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Once again, since a shit storm happened after my post....When is the graphics overhaul due out? I didn't see it in the OP.

    Smashism on
  • xgalaxyxgalaxy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Man, I need to check out the new graphics and such. Have they fixed any of the lag issues at all? I suppose not.

    I've got a 20m-ish minmatar, fairly heavily specialized, force recon just sitting around doing nothing.

    xgalaxy on
    GW2: Rancid Cupcake (Necro), Ranch Dressing (Ranger)
  • SueveSueve Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    FUCK YES AMERICA FUCK YES! EVE ONLINE FOR MAC!

    Sueve on
  • KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    So have they alienated their playerbase by making the game DX10 only yet

    Kazhiim on
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  • SueveSueve Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Oh man, Im coming back to Eve, no doubt. Shit yes.

    Sueve shall probably be my name.

    Sueve on
  • SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Kazhiim wrote: »
    So have they alienated their playerbase by making the game DX10 only yet



    NEW: THE “REVELATIONS 3” EXPANSION


    The Revelations 3 expansion’s main feature is an all-new graphics engine, replacing the aging technology that has supported the game since 2003. Dubbed “Trinity,” the new engine takes advantage of modern video card capabilities and supports DirectX 9. This, along with brand new models and textures, advances Eve’s visuals by several years in one fell swoop. These new features are optional, however, so those of you with older systems can use a less advanced version which has lower system requirements.


    Smashism on
  • MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    Monoxide wrote: »

    Now someone tell deadtear to reactivate my fucking forum account. I reactivated but I'm stuck in Venal.

    That shouldn't be a problem? Razor should be blue to Goonswarm.

    This probably belongs more in EVE General Discussion thataway, though.:arrow:

    I'm not in Goonswarm, that's the problem. I was in Snigg, my account lapsed, I was purged. Now I'm newbie corp :whatup:

    And you're right, it does.

    Monoxide on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Smashism wrote: »
    Once again, since a shit storm happened after my post....When is the graphics overhaul due out? I didn't see it in the OP.

    Sometime either this November or early December. A date was previously announced for Nov. 27, but then some devs said it might slip past that.
    Sueve wrote:
    FUCK YES AMERICA FUCK YES! EVE ONLINE FOR MAC!

    Just make sure you meet the requirements to run it oh god. People have been complaining about performance issues but I think they're trying to run it on integrated graphics and MacOS 10.2 on an iMac or some shit. The EVE mac client needs a fair bit of horsepower to run right.

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • JiveTurkeyFiveJiveTurkeyFive Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Smashism drags me out for a first post, I've been messing with this game on and off since beta...I have the same problem as him though and have trouble getting through the first few days. I read a while back about the whole "get out of your ship and walk around" aspect they plan on adding and that has so much potential. If EVE continues to evolve the way is has, it will be the "next gen" MMO every new game promises without ever having made the lofty claim.

    JiveTurkeyFive on
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Every time I try to get into this game I always give up, last time I made it to PA space, but my skills were so low I couldn't do anything other then mine asteroids, very pitifully :P

    TheCrumblyCracker on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Note that they're keeping the walking around bits fairly simple at first: just walking around promenades, corp offices, public areas that players can purchase (bars, in-game casinos, etc) and that's pretty much it. No combat. This is so that they can actually get it out the door sometime this decade, since they could easily spend years working on this feature alone.

    Also they actually hired a real, Hollywood-level costume person to make the full-body costumes. Early concepts shown at Fanfest suggest that Gallente girls won't have outfits quite so ridiculous anymore. Here's to hoping Gallente guys get some non-metrosexual choices as well.
    Every time I try to get into this game I always give up, last time I made it to PA space, but my skills were so low I couldn't do anything other then mine asteroids, very pitifully :P

    New players start out with 800,000 skillpoints now, AND the mission series for newbies now gives you a Propulsion Jamming skillbook. You really can log into the game brand new and be ready to meaningfully assist in combat in 24 hours at most, now. When was the last time you saw a level 10 in WoW legitimately help kill a level 70 by preventing that 70 from escaping?

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • AphostileAphostile Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    Sueve wrote:
    FUCK YES AMERICA FUCK YES! EVE ONLINE FOR MAC!

    Just make sure you meet the requirements to run it oh god. People have been complaining about performance issues but I think they're trying to run it on integrated graphics and MacOS 10.2 on an iMac or some shit. The EVE mac client needs a fair bit of horsepower to run right.

    For some tester info, it works great on my year old Macbook Pro in Tiger (OSX 10.4) although I hear we don't get the super awesome graphics with the new update.

    Pew pew pew pew, missiles go kaboom and my ships go whoosh...

    Aphostile on
    Tinychat is dead. Long live Tinychat. D3 BTag: Aphostile#1366 : Steam - ADD ME JERKS : | Xbox Live : LastAphostile | PS4 : Aphostile
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I sheepd a guy running on a mount who then proceded to get destroyed by gaurds.

    Which is the WoW equivalent to tackling I think :P.

    (I see your point, I just felt like defending WoW, game may have ruined my life but it is kinda fun)

    TheCrumblyCracker on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Aphostile wrote: »
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    Sueve wrote:
    FUCK YES AMERICA FUCK YES! EVE ONLINE FOR MAC!

    Just make sure you meet the requirements to run it oh god. People have been complaining about performance issues but I think they're trying to run it on integrated graphics and MacOS 10.2 on an iMac or some shit. The EVE mac client needs a fair bit of horsepower to run right.

    For some tester info, it works great on my year old Macbook Pro in Tiger (OSX 10.4) although I hear we don't get the super awesome graphics with the new update.

    Not immediately. Apparently some extra work needs to go into the Mac interpreter to support the extra pixel shading effects that Trinity sports. I believe the EVE Mac team said at fanfest they're aiming for a few months after Trinity goes live to deliver it to Mac.

    Also anything not running 10.5 apparently needs the most recently patched version of 10.4 (10.4.9 I think?) Trying to run it on anything else will have the client boot, but it will constantly shit on itself. Be absolutely sure to check the system requirements on the EVE website when trying to use the Mac client. It's a very new thing and may still be wobbly.

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »

    New players start out with 800,000 skillpoints now, AND the mission series for newbies now gives you a Propulsion Jamming skillbook. You really can log into the game brand new and be ready to meaningfully assist in combat in 24 hours at most, now. When was the last time you saw a level 10 in WoW legitimately help kill a level 70 by preventing that 70 from escaping?

    You did it. You talked me into it. Me and the JiveTurkeyFive will be joining PA shortly. This and mass efffect will put me into some kind of sci fi coma, I think.

    Smashism on
  • WheezerWheezer Registered User
    edited November 2007
    The tutorial seems quite improved. I ran 14 days, but that was about a year ago, and WoW ate all my online gaming time. I'm on a new trial now, and I've got 8 days to decide wether I want to keep the account, but I'm seriously on the fence.

    The game seems good, but from where I'm playing, it's a little laggy. And my time zone is GMT +8, meaning that the daily downtime is at 7pm, just after I get back from work. The downtime, combined with the connection losses / graphic glitches of the mac client make me vary.

    For most of the time though, Eve seems to be very good about lag. Sometimes wrecks take time to open, markets open slowly, and commands take a little to register. It's not bad, but there's a slight lag to everything, which at times escalates to ten second plus wait on opening a window. What I'm wondering is, if this is fatal in PvP or not? I know it's not a twitch experience for most, but how much lag is too much in PvP?

    Wheezer on
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  • SueveSueve Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    Smashism wrote: »
    Once again, since a shit storm happened after my post....When is the graphics overhaul due out? I didn't see it in the OP.

    Sometime either this November or early December. A date was previously announced for Nov. 27, but then some devs said it might slip past that.
    Sueve wrote:
    FUCK YES AMERICA FUCK YES! EVE ONLINE FOR MAC!

    Just make sure you meet the requirements to run it oh god. People have been complaining about performance issues but I think they're trying to run it on integrated graphics and MacOS 10.2 on an iMac or some shit. The EVE mac client needs a fair bit of horsepower to run right.

    10.4 iMac X1600 256mb vram, 1 gig ram, and ive played eve on bootcamp before. I just hate switching over all the time.

    Sueve on
  • badjujumanbadjujuman They call me Kotty Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I don't know if this is the correct forum to post this in, but I am giving EVE a try and I would like to join your corp.

    I am on my way to the moon right now, my in game name is Hesphestus.

    See you soon!

    badjujuman on
    "You wanna go Matrix?" - Kris Straub
    "Yeah, I wanna go Matrix." - Scott Kurtz
    (Scott Kurtz panel - PAX East 2010)
  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    Aphostile wrote: »
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    Sueve wrote:
    FUCK YES AMERICA FUCK YES! EVE ONLINE FOR MAC!

    Just make sure you meet the requirements to run it oh god. People have been complaining about performance issues but I think they're trying to run it on integrated graphics and MacOS 10.2 on an iMac or some shit. The EVE mac client needs a fair bit of horsepower to run right.

    For some tester info, it works great on my year old Macbook Pro in Tiger (OSX 10.4) although I hear we don't get the super awesome graphics with the new update.

    Not immediately. Apparently some extra work needs to go into the Mac interpreter to support the extra pixel shading effects that Trinity sports. I believe the EVE Mac team said at fanfest they're aiming for a few months after Trinity goes live to deliver it to Mac.

    Also anything not running 10.5 apparently needs the most recently patched version of 10.4 (10.4.9 I think?) Trying to run it on anything else will have the client boot, but it will constantly shit on itself. Be absolutely sure to check the system requirements on the EVE website when trying to use the Mac client. It's a very new thing and may still be wobbly.

    I have a Macbook, with a 2.0Ghz Core 2 Duo and 1 gig of ram with 10.4.10 and it was running. It runs at about 12 FPS outside of station on average, amybe a little higher sometimes.

    ronzo on
  • hoodie13hoodie13 punch bro Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Someone mind explaining where I can find the minimum system requirements for Mac?

    This page doesn't have anything.

    hoodie13 on
    PSN: HoodieThirteen
    XBL: Torn Hoodie
    @hoodiethirteen
  • runaway_pancakerunaway_pancake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    hoodie13 wrote: »
    Someone mind explaining where I can find the minimum system requirements for Mac?

    This page doesn't have anything.
    http://support.eve-online.com/pages/kb/article.aspx?id=124
    Wheezer wrote: »
    The tutorial seems quite improved. I ran 14 days, but that was about a year ago, and WoW ate all my online gaming time. I'm on a new trial now, and I've got 8 days to decide wether I want to keep the account, but I'm seriously on the fence.

    The game seems good, but from where I'm playing, it's a little laggy. And my time zone is GMT +8, meaning that the daily downtime is at 7pm, just after I get back from work. The downtime, combined with the connection losses / graphic glitches of the mac client make me vary.

    For most of the time though, Eve seems to be very good about lag. Sometimes wrecks take time to open, markets open slowly, and commands take a little to register. It's not bad, but there's a slight lag to everything, which at times escalates to ten second plus wait on opening a window. What I'm wondering is, if this is fatal in PvP or not? I know it's not a twitch experience for most, but how much lag is too much in PvP?
    One of the nice things about the new engine is that it allows modern video cards to perform many tasks that are currently assigned to the CPU. This should hopefully help out with the graphical load (crosses fingers). CCP also claims to have put a code change into the expansion that reduces the lag generated by carriers, which are currently one of the bigger culprits in the larger fleet battles.

    Edit: CCP are also experimenting with antisymmetric loading, which basically means that when you're loading a very laggy system or grid, your client displays items as they load rather than waiting for everything to load and then displaying it all at once.

    runaway_pancake on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    hoodie13 wrote: »
    Someone mind explaining where I can find the minimum system requirements for Mac?

    This page doesn't have anything.

    Here you go.
    Macintosh:

    Minimal system requirements

    * Intel based computer with CPU speed equal or greater than 1.8GHz , the client does not run on a PowerPC (G3/G4/G5) based Macintoshes (PowerMac). .
    * OS: OS X 10.4.9 or later.
    * Video: ATI X1600 or NVidia 7300 GT or higher with 128 MB of Video RAM
    * RAM: 1024 MB or more
    * HD space: 6 GB
    * Network: 56k or better Internet connection

    Recommended system configuration

    * Intel based CPU 2GHz or better
    * OS: OS X 10.4.9 or later
    * Video: ATI X1900 or Nvidia 7600
    * RAM: 1GB
    * HD space: 6 Gb or more
    * Network: Broadband Internet connection

    Do note that MacPro computers allow changing graphics cards

    Wheezer: it is much improved. They streamlined it in Revelations II, although it still has to be long and comprehensive. It has to be, EVE by necessity has to be a bit more complex than WoW. Living in a timezone outside of Europe/American can suck, but we have a lot of guys in Merch and the greater Goonswarm who do it. James Duar (electricitylikesme) is one, he can probably give some hints for working around downtime.
    You did it. You talked me into it. Me and the JiveTurkeyFive will be joining PA shortly. This and mass efffect will put me into some kind of sci fi coma, I think.

    Jooiiiiiiin uuuuuuus. :D What are your in-game names? I'll make an effort to be around on MRCHI-help whenever I'm on for the next few days to help answer any questions I can. I'm Andre Ricard ingame.

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • deadteardeadtear Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Sup I'm a GF director just posting in support of my merch brosefs. I did my damndest to bring them into the fold, and I *think* they can't be happier, but screw them I'm happy with the arrangement and that's all that matters right?

    deadtear on
  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited November 2007
    My god, that was so funny. I just watched the presentation by the Goonswarm director at the EVE Fanfest.

    devoir on
  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I've been back and forth on EVE for a while, debating playing it I mean. It looks like the only MMO on the market I might actually end up paying money to join, depending on how this 14 day trial works out.

    I'm dling the client now, should start playing tomorrow evening or so.

    LibrarianThorne on
  • deadteardeadtear Registered User
    edited November 2007
    devoir wrote: »
    My god, that was so funny. I just watched the presentation by the Goonswarm director at the EVE Fanfest.

    That would be Stoffer Ninjapirate, a Dane that gets confused with an american wherever he goes because of his complete lack of accent.


    Also mono you gay talk to bobvii, I'm not an admin and haven't been for a long long time.

    deadtear on
  • SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    You did it. You talked me into it. Me and the JiveTurkeyFive will be joining PA shortly. This and mass efffect will put me into some kind of sci fi coma, I think.

    Jooiiiiiiin uuuuuuus. :D What are your in-game names? I'll make an effort to be around on MRCHI-help whenever I'm on for the next few days to help answer any questions I can. I'm Andre Ricard ingame.

    I've made a Calderi named Hash VonSmashism and I believe JiveTurkeyFive is just that. We will get joining tomorrow, I gotta work early tomorrow. Gonna finish up tutorial tonight though.

    Smashism on
  • SpaceDrakeSpaceDrake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    If you need help tonight I'm still more than happy to give it. Let me hop on Andre in a few minutes here.

    SpaceDrake on
    pa_sig.jpg
  • badjujumanbadjujuman They call me Kotty Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Can someone help me? I have gone to two docks and I haven't been able to see the Merch Corp in the Offices tab.

    badjujuman on
    "You wanna go Matrix?" - Kris Straub
    "Yeah, I wanna go Matrix." - Scott Kurtz
    (Scott Kurtz panel - PAX East 2010)
  • SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SpaceDrake wrote: »
    If you need help tonight I'm still more than happy to give it. Let me hop on Andre in a few minutes here.

    You got it, I'll try hitting up a station to join up with PA when I'm done with this nicely revamped tutorial.

    Smashism on
  • runaway_pancakerunaway_pancake Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    badjujuman wrote: »
    Can someone help me? I have gone to two docks and I haven't been able to see the Merch Corp in the Offices tab.
    Woops, looks like we closed a few of the offices I listed. I've gone back and updated it with new ones.

    runaway_pancake on
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