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[WoW-Warriors] Blizzard's perfect class. Envy us.

2456763

Posts

  • IrohIroh Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.

    But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
    I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Iroh wrote: »
    Kainy wrote: »
    Iroh wrote: »
    Kainy wrote: »
    Rather than bloodrage I'd take glyph of thunderclap, to help combat mobs being stupid with their positioning.
    I used to think that, but that glyph is what, two yards extra? With a little finesse you can definitely do without it, whereas Bloodrage should be getting used frequently to keep the Heroic Strikes coming, and doing damage to yourself is slightly counter-productive from a tanking perspective.

    The damage bloodrage does is pretty insignificant. 1300 isn't going to be your margin of survival against bosses that hit for 10k+, and if it is, you should know better than to bloodrage while at low health. Rage for heroic strikes, between focused rage, improve heroic strike, and getting a full rage bar every time you're smacked, is pretty much a nonissue.

    Finesse matters little when mob pathing is being retarded, I think. I've had mobs walk through me to stand behind me and attack, after pulling them, so many times that I'm going to do everything I can to prop up my lackluster AoE threat's area.
    Are we talking heroics or raid encounters here? If you ever raid tank, glyphing TC over Bloodrage is plainly stupid. Having rage on demand in threat-sensitive fights like General Vezax or Hodir is important, and not jeopardizing your survival for it is several times more valuable than being able to be sloppy on your 5-man pulls. For the 9 deaths out of 10 where you wouldn't have survived by that amount of HP, your argument holds water, but personally I am not okay with it happening even just that one other time.

    I really don't have a clue how mobs walking behind you presents issues for your Thunderclap range, either.

    I could just as easily say the thunder clap minor glyph is more important in raids because it means the trash that actually hits hard is more easily picked up before it one shots a healer.

    The bloodrage glyph remains useless. All those 'threat sensitive' fights like Vezax and Hodir hard have enough incoming tank damage that I have enough rage to heroic strike every single white swing anyway, so I don't even use bloodrage mid fight.

    And if I did, I wouldn't be stupid enough to use it unless I had full health. Unless your healers are doing 0% overhealing(they're not) then doing 1200 damage to yourself is not going to get you killed.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Even Blizzard agrees that prot warriors don't use the bloodrage glyph, since our 4pc T10 removes the health cost in addition to the absorption. :P

  • IrohIroh Registered User
    edited November 2009
    It's a given that all minor glyphs are going to be marginally effective, but if you frequently find yourself needing a grand total of 2 yards to your thunderclap to pick things up, you could be doing a better job.

    I just don't like glyphing for things that I could solve by playing better, hence my preference for Bloodrage.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ArthilArthil Henchman 21 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idget?

    Youtube PSN: Honishimo GW2: Akeche.4867 Steam FitocracyCwcuLUM.jpg
  • IrohIroh Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Arthil wrote: »
    Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idiot?
    Yes. It's likely the highest source of threat.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JesuitsJesuits Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Arthil wrote: »
    Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idget?

    I wouldn't call him an idget for that if no one's told him otherwise. If people have been telling him otherwise often, then yeah.

    By which I mean: he needs to put it to use right now.

    tf2_sig.png
  • KainyKainy Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Arthil wrote: »
    Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idget?

    If he's tanking instances, yes. Any time you have only one target, you should be using HS on every swing, rage permitting - heroic strike does much more damage than a normal swing, doesn't glance, and does increased threat.

    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • ArthilArthil Henchman 21 Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I've been telling him constantly His excuse has been it doesn't seem to gain enough threat, fucker needs to be queing it up all the time. Seriously at one point he told someone he had slight threat issues, they told him to raise his hit/expertise. Is that good? Yes, but I bet your ass that him putting our biggest threat builder to use would have done just as much. Like trying to tank on a DK without using Runestrike...

    Youtube PSN: Honishimo GW2: Akeche.4867 Steam FitocracyCwcuLUM.jpg
  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2009
    Iroh wrote: »
    I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.

    But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
    I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.

    Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.

    Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.

    WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.

  • IrohIroh Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Iroh wrote: »
    I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.

    But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
    I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.

    Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.

    Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.

    WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.
    It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. Especially with Hodir and Vezax, I've got over 10k TPS to contend with on a regular basis, so being rage starved even for a moment is a wipe waiting to happen.

    Outside of those Bloodrage is much less important, though, I agree.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JesuitsJesuits Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Arthil wrote: »
    I've been telling him constantly His excuse has been it doesn't seem to gain enough threat, fucker needs to be queing it up all the time. Seriously at one point he told someone he had slight threat issues, they told him to raise his hit/expertise. Is that good? Yes, but I bet your ass that him putting our biggest threat builder to use would have done just as much. Like trying to tank on a DK without using Runestrike...

    Yes in that case he needs a good smack upside the head. A good way to judge a warrior's worth is by his rage bar - if it is always full, that warrior is doing it wrong. Make fun of him at every opportunity for this.

    tf2_sig.png
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Jesuits wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    I've been telling him constantly His excuse has been it doesn't seem to gain enough threat, fucker needs to be queing it up all the time. Seriously at one point he told someone he had slight threat issues, they told him to raise his hit/expertise. Is that good? Yes, but I bet your ass that him putting our biggest threat builder to use would have done just as much. Like trying to tank on a DK without using Runestrike...

    Yes in that case he needs a good smack upside the head. A good way to judge a warrior's worth is by his rage bar - if it is always full, that warrior is doing it wrong. Make fun of him at every opportunity for this.

    I seem to remember a time when Heroic Strike was just not done past a certain level. Or it was the last thing a Warrior did since Sunder/Devestate did more threat. But from what I have been seeing lately, Sunder/Devestate has become the thing you apply while other things are on cooldown or unavailable.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    If he still has rage left over after doing his normal threat rotation, what in god's name does he think he's doing with that rage!? You must heroic strike, or your threat is going to suck balls on a raid boss.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Iroh wrote: »
    I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.

    But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
    I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.

    Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.

    Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.

    WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.

    You must not have tanked Hodir hard mode for any superb DPSers then. My guild's best rogue did 14k DPS on that fight last week in 10 man. Believe me when I say it took him vanishing and getting a hand of salv to keep him alive, and I'm as good as Warrior tanks come.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Iroh wrote: »
    I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.

    But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
    I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.

    Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.

    Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.

    WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.

    You must not have tanked Hodir hard mode for any superb DPSers then. My guild's best rogue did 14k DPS on that fight last week in 10 man. Believe me when I say it took him vanishing and getting a hand of salv to keep him alive, and I'm as good as Warrior tanks come.

    So then why are you saying its not a threat sensitive fight?

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    That was directed at Justin, sorry.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    They should change the tooltip on the Thunder Clap minor glyph to "Increases the radius of Thunder Clap by 25%."

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    thats a good idea, make it so people will realise it is a basically mandatory glyph for any warrior trying to tank anything

    ever run in to pick up a trash pack and a healer pulls aggro just as you charge and one mob makes it far enough out of your thunderclap range? i know that happens to me a fuckload. glyph would save you.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    thats a good idea, make it so people will realise it is a basically mandatory glyph for any warrior trying to tank anything

    ever run in to pick up a trash pack and a healer pulls aggro just as you charge and one mob makes it far enough out of your thunderclap range? i know that happens to me a fuckload. glyph would save you.

    God damned healers using shield after you start combat but before you actually have aggro.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    i have found that it is not common knowledge that EVERYTHING you do causes threat. even something nonsensical like casting Blessing of Kings on yourself, or buffing yourself with a Seal as a paladin causes threat, and if a tank has only proximity-pulled, the entire pack is coming for you.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • JesuitsJesuits Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I've pulled aggro from a tank a couple times by refreshing battle/commanding shout before he hits everyone, so I know this to be true.

    tf2_sig.png
  • MarsMars Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Whenever that happens to me, it's because the tank didn't give me any time to rebuff him before pulling. Not saying you're at fault, but it's something to keep in mind.

    Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, a lot of the time it's because the tank waits too long, and by the time he finally gets around to pulling, my shield's nearly dropped off and I have to rebuff. I don't pug anymore though, and my guild's tanks tend to be pretty confident, so it doesn't happen as often as it used to.

  • DkarrdeDkarrde Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    i have found that it is not common knowledge that EVERYTHING you do causes threat. even something nonsensical like casting Blessing of Kings on yourself, or buffing yourself with a Seal as a paladin causes threat, and if a tank has only proximity-pulled, the entire pack is coming for you.

    It's usually not a huge concern, though. As a holy spec paladin I'll often judge well before the tank has aggro on a boss and pull aggro for a brief moment; it never matters because they have it under control instantly without even bothering to taunt, and it gives me a free GCD so I don't have to waste an early one on getting my haste buff up. This is with experienced raid tanks, however, so if you're pugging, might want to be more careful.

    Also, there are a few cases you don't want to do that. I accidentally bludgeoned my Judge key setting up for Algalon. That was a tense few seconds as he ran straight for me upon exiting invulnerability.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    i have found that it is not common knowledge that EVERYTHING you do causes threat. even something nonsensical like casting Blessing of Kings on yourself, or buffing yourself with a Seal as a paladin causes threat, and if a tank has only proximity-pulled, the entire pack is coming for you.

    Back during Vanilla my guild was sure to remind DPS Warriors that if they used Bloodrage and pulled aggro they would be penalized.

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2009
    Hey I found a threat problem fight last night!

    Patchwerk.

    In 245 gear.

    I took 0 damage as the third tank and thus, couldn't keep one of our melee DPS from going passed me and getting owned by Hatefuls.

    I wish I still had the recount. I don't even show up on the damage taken chart.

  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Tell your healers to heal the second tank faster then.

    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    slower, you mean.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Doesn't he hit whoever has the highest threat + HP with hateful strike? So, as long as your second tank is topped off he'll get hit over the dps.

    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • KainyKainy Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    The issue that happened is that offtank #2 never got hit, because offtank #1 was getting healed too fast. Thus, offtank#2 didnt' generate much threat, getting passed in threat by a melee, who then ate a hateful when Patch decided to use it while offtank #1 didn't get healed quite as fast, late in the fight. Should've just had offtank #2 be a DK :lol:

    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    or paladin.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • KainyKainy Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    How much of the rotation can a prot paladin really do with just divine plea to sustain it? Everything but consecration?

    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    yep. and consecrate is a very insignificant portion of your threat compared to seals, shield slam, and hammer

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2009
    That's...not even close to how the fight works.

    MT gets hit like normal.

    Second and third highest threat get attacked with hateful strikes. HP has nothing to do with it (it did at level 60, not at 80), only where you are on the threat charts and whether or not you're melee. The other offtank being topped off is completely irrelevant. I parried and dodged every single hateful strike that came my way and I wasn't able to generate any rage or agro (no rage to use shield slam or HS), so I got surpassed by one of the melee DPS who then ate a few hateful and died.

    We were farming the block bracers from Maexxna and one of our guys suggested seeing how fast we could kill Patchwerk for fun. It took us 1:39 even with that one guy dead for half the fight. Probably would have been under 1:30 if he was alive.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Actually, HP does have something to do with it. But so does threat.

    He will hit either the second or third highest on threat with a hateful, whichever of those two happens to be higher HP. It is possible to two-tank him for this reason.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2009
    HP has nothing to do with it. Stop believing the false rumors.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I have two tanked Patchwerk on 25man before. If your theory is correct, that should not be possible because the melee DPS would all die. Since it is not impossible, your theory is wrong.

    Oops, you lose.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • SmasherSmasher Starting to get dizzy Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    The false rumors (at least at 80) were that any melee could be hit if their HP was the highest besides the MT, which is why people thought they had to dip into the slime constantly.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yep. As long as you're not 2nd or 3rd on threat you won't get hit, but determining which among those two takes the hatefuls is done by HP.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
This discussion has been closed.