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Robots, AI, and how we treat them
Posts
Pony did not address this in his op it seems.
In the same way that we know that violent movies, violent video games, porn, etc. do not desensitize individuals.
Unless we contend that these things to desensitize people. But if that is the case then, presumably, movies and rape-bots ought to be assessed on the same level.
I'd like to think that by the time we have robots such as you describe women will actually have equality both under the law and socially and rape would be unthinkable to anyone living in a country wealthy enough that they could buy such a robot.
There's certainly validity to that argument, but going from there:
If a man rapes because he wants sex and he just don't give a fuck what the other person wants or has convinced himself that the victim "wants it", that's still a lack of empathy and an objectification of the victim as someone lesser in value to the perpetrator.
It's my opinion that enabling this sort of mindset with accurately physical simulations of the act will only reinforce that mindset, not combat it.
I think that's unrealistically optimistic about humanity, quite frankly.
Although I did address it just now, on this very page.
Do you think the actors who frequently act in violent movies become desensitized? Have any of them eventually ended up going out and killing people for real because of all the times they did it in the movies?
A second before I made that post no less.
There's one other thing you didn't address though, maybe you'll do it now
D:
I don't really have an ethical reason unless I accept that the adult version is bad also but for some reason this sickens me.
Pedophiles know it's wrong to mess around with children the same way a bank robber knows it's wrong to rob a bank. They both do their thing because they think they can get away with it, not because they have a disconnect with reality so I don't see how 'normalizing behavior' or blurring reality comes into play. The pedophile will try to cover up the assault and the bank robber will cover up evidence of his getaway because the both know they did something wrong.
But they aren't the same level.
Movies can desensitize people to violence and other socially reprehensible behavior. So can video games. Not to the extent that Jack Thompson contends, where a boy who plays too much GTA will go out and kill a cop and steal his car and go on a rampage.
But there's certainly an extent to which all entertainment media has an emotional resonance with people and can, in many instances, desensitize people to the depictions of those acts.
Robotic simulation, in my opinion, is on a different level than these other media because the simulation is so very close to reality.
That level of simulation carries with it an associated higher level of desensitization, and that's the shit that really bugs me.
I agree, the ultimate goal is real kids not being raped = good. Everything else is fluff.
You'd never be able to prove causality in this case. Besides, desensitization isn't always going to lead to violence.
You're probably right. humanity constantly disappoints.
At the same time, I don't expect any realistic sex bots for at least another 20 years, and even then they will cost a lot so it's not like everyone will have one.
It all depends on the accuracy of the simulation. That's what I'm on about, here.
We are not currently on a level where a person can get an accurate robotic simulation of say, rape, on a level that I feel is dangerously desensitizing a person to the real act.
But that is the direction we are potentially traveling in.
I find that disquieting.
Doesn't matter.
Most robots will be rented out, not privately owned.
The rise of robotic brothels.
Actors who are called on to portray disturbing or horrific roles or do simulations of terrible things are often emotionally affected by the experience.
In many cases, there's still a level of detachment from a more accurate simulation because the way movies are made is many steps divorced from how it is shown. For example, very few actors who go gun-blazing in a scene are actually shooting at anything. They're shooting at a target off camera with guns full of blanks. Even if the very next shot shows a person sprawling on the ground squealing in agony from the gunshot wound "inflicted" by the actor's character, those two events in how the movie is made (and thus, the simulation from the standpoint of the actor) are very separate.
When they aren't, there are many, many accounts of actors who are deeply troubled by the characters or actions they've had to portray. The guy who played serial rapist and murder Paul Bernardo in the movie Karla had nightmares for some time after and needed therapy.
So, was he desensitized? No. Was he emotionally affected? Very much so.
Was he fetishizing being a rapist or a murderer going into the production, though? Doubt it.
And there's the snag of it.
Which is a pretty poor counterpoint.
You'd equally never be able to prove causality in any case where someone rapes their sex robot and then goes on to commit a real rape.
And if the worry about desensitization is not that the person may become more likely to commit the act in question for real, what's the worry?
A modern-day man walks into a psychiatrist's office. "Doctor, I'm having urges and fantasies to rape women. What should I do?" Doctor says, "You must suppress these thoughts. Fantasies can't harm anyone but if you indulge them, you may lose control one day and let your peers or family know your desires and that will ruin you. You will be a social outcast. Unemployable even if you receive psychological treatment. Let's cure you of these urges..."
Is this at all correct or am I picking words out of the air?
Still not quite the same. As long as you have that barrier of a screen or a device using imagery to convey the experience, it won't have the same emotional impact.
But, it could get there.
The issue I have with human-simulation robotics is that it's not VR. It's not 3D. It's physical. You can touch it, strike it, harm it, whatever.
So, unless VR gets so full-sensory that it makes the digital indistinguishable from the physical, it's not going to have that same level of impact.
A dude with a VR goggles on going around a 3D environment shooting digital people with his gun-shaped controller is not the same as a guy on some military simulation firing range shooting bullets into the faces of fleeing robots designed to simulate humans.
Those two things are not the same in how they effect people.
I think Pony's point is that killing an image (3D or not) is drastically different from going on a real hunting trip where the prey is a humanlike robot that screams and dies a bloody death.
We all agree that playing 3d shooters doesn't turn people into murderers, but how do we know that at some people we won't go too far?
How do you discern proximity to reality? What is the difference between, say, fucking a robot, fucking a fleshlight, and masturbating to a video? What is the actual difference?
Moreover, with regard to the rape conversation, given that robots lack volition there cannot be actual rape occurring. So, at best, the individual is pretending, mentally, to rape the robot. It seems like this same sort of mental situation could occur in various situations which were not utilizing a robot.
Yes, homosexuality is totally the same thing as rape.
What the fuck man, are you high?
Maybe less terrible.
I'm not high! I'm making a point about how society reacts to people. We should tolerate would-be rapists and not shun them unless they cause harm and actually rape people! [/confused]
What if the wounded robot asks for mercy? What if it begs for its silicon life?
Animal = Robot?
that seems problematic.
A robot has no life.
Unlike an animal.
Just because the extreme you outlined above is bad doesn't mean the extreme of handing realistic sex bots to people with rape fetishes is good either.
I'm not convinced raping sex bots would lead people to raping real people but I can't dismiss the possibility either.
The level of sensory input, in fact.
If your senses are close to incapable of distinguishing a simulation of an act from the act itself, even if you consciously know it is a simulation, it is still capable of having a profound psychological effect on you.
Military simulations are an excellent example. The Canadian Forces did a study years ago of the psychological impact of soldiers in military training exercises that are designed to simulate live combat zones as accurately as possible.
What they found was that the level of combat stress, emotional responses, and fear-based reactions on the part of the soldiers was real and measurable.
Even though it was a simulation, even though the soldiers knew consciously that it is a simulation, the more comprehensive and immersive the scenario was the less capable the soldiers were of consciously asserting command of their own reactions and feelings.
I've also seen this exact same experience with engaging in military simulation scenarios myself, as people's levels of adrenaline, aggression, anxiety, etc. go up and become more tangible and real the more the sensory experiences of the scenario accurately depict reality.
Fucking a fleshlight isn't the same sensory experience as fucking a convincing human-simulation robot that is screaming and weakly flailing in futility trying to get you to stop. Even though both are simulated, one has a far greater impact on a person on a psychological level.
It is still a machine, make to act 99.9% human it remains a machine. Even if we hit the point of AI that it can look, feel, act human. Even if i send my lovebot into a bar, program it to leave at 2am, and ambush it in a dark alley to do horrible things it still remains a fantasy with an expensive prop.
Hell lets remove the robots completely, take holodecks for instance. Imagine we have the ability to create in absolute perfect detail the most horrific scenario imaginable. Hell lets start off with some rape/torture porn of an 11 year old girl. Sure she may be screaming in pain, sure you are getting a 100% accurate representation of what it is like to flay the skin from her bones, however we cannot make the claim that this will "desensitize" you to the real thing. Nor can we exactly say this is a bad thing.
Is it bad that a mortician is desensitized to human cadavers?
Moreover we currently have productive members of society completely lacking in empathy. Just because they do not care about your feelings does not mean they are going to go around doing horrible things to you.
While creepy as fuck there is nothing inherently wrong with being desensitized to the pleas of the sexbot because you set it to rape victim as opposed to dopey cheerleader. Moreover while completely lacking in empathy toward your fellow humans may cause your problems in social interaction there is also nothing inherently wrong with it. People already have various levels of empathy as it is. Now if the entire human population lost all empathy toward each other we might have some rather large problems, but hopefully we would find another reason to cooperate. Possibly mutual survival. Possibly thunderdome.
You make the claim the the closer we get to letting people live out their fantasies the more likely they are to take it beyond the fantasy level. If raping a robot is just as good as the real thing, why take all the risks of punishment when they can just keep doing what they are doing? When they grow weary of sobquietly.wav as opposed to climaxloudly.wav they can just get a new personality to spice things up.