Re Handbrakes: I use it all the time when I do hillstarts, that is the way we are taught in NZ. It's safer because you can garuntee that you are never going to roll backwards. I grew up on a farm , and there are definitely places I have had to park that rolling backwards even 6 inches is increasing your risk.
Asides from that advise, I would say that you should try to learn which gear you are in without looking at the gearstick - it is important to break yourself f the habit of taking your eyes off the road to check this if you do it. If necessary, get a friend to change gears from the passenger seat, and then you check the gear position by feel, doing this a few times should give you a feel of which gear you are in.
If you are really a glutton for punishment, try hillstarting in reverse (reversing uphill from a standing start). Although it is good for getting a handle on what to do with the handbrake without looking at it(because you are looking out the rear window while you reverse right?).
ok so i just went for another spin in my sister's car (2nd attempt at stick driving).
I am much more comfortable than my first time - my sister said she's actually super jealous of how well I am doing. I don't really have problems of having to look at the stick to figure out what gear im in so that isn't an issue, I can kinda just feel that with my hand, or remember. So far I haven't ever forgot what I'm in.
I'm also really getting what you guys are talking about with hills. Luckily my driveway is on a slight hill so its a good place to practice.
So I've got some questions about the handbreak method on hills.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Is this the correct way to perform a hill start using a handbreak? Maybe other people can pipe in about that.
So essentially when performing this move, this is what I'm doing right?:
1) clutch down. Foot on break. Handbreak on. Make car turn on now. First Gear.
2) Ease up on clutch to get that "grabbing point" or whatever its called* + Foot on gas tiny bit.
3) like 1 second after step 2 release hand break.
Is that correct?
*Also was really noticing this during my 2nd outing! Felt good.
The hardest part of driving standard for beginners is having to stop while going uphill. You're going to roll back quite a bit until you get the hang of it. One thing you could do is give it a tiny bit of gas as you are letting off the clutch so that it won't stall as easily. Not too much, but just enough.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Don't you need to take a seperate test to be licenced to drive a manual car where you live?
A real driver will just let off the clutch enough to hold the car to give you enough time to accelerate. A true driver will also know that the parking brake is nothing more but a parking brake.
Stop being a silly goose before you pull an infraction k
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Pretty much. You release the handbrake when you can feel the car trying to move forward instead of backwards. For general out and about driving, the worst part of hills is drivers with automatics that have never come across a hill rollback before, and thus sit right on your bumper.
I assume you've commandeered an empty parking lot or two for 1st gear practice? Once you're in first, getting to second and above is always going to be a lot easier, and a lot quicker. The tiny bit of gas you give it while easing up on the pedal going into first is supposed to be just enough to keep the engine from stalling out, but not so much that you outdo the clutch. When you nail it, it feels awesome.
ok so i just went for another spin in my sister's car (2nd attempt at stick driving).
I am much more comfortable than my first time - my sister said she's actually super jealous of how well I am doing. I don't really have problems of having to look at the stick to figure out what gear im in so that isn't an issue, I can kinda just feel that with my hand, or remember. So far I haven't ever forgot what I'm in.
I'm also really getting what you guys are talking about with hills. Luckily my driveway is on a slight hill so its a good place to practice.
So I've got some questions about the handbreak method on hills.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Is this the correct way to perform a hill start using a handbreak? Maybe other people can pipe in about that.
So essentially when performing this move, this is what I'm doing right?:
1) clutch down. Foot on break. Handbreak on. Make car turn on now. First Gear.
2) Ease up on clutch to get that "grabbing point" or whatever its called* + Foot on gas tiny bit.
3) like 1 second after step 2 release hand break.
Is that correct?
*Also was really noticing this during my 2nd outing! Felt good.
Super awesome! As you get more confident you'll need to wait less between finding the bite point and the gas and letting the brake go (leaving it too long will give you screaming engine noise and possibly wheelspin as you take off, but it sounds like you're not overdoing it so don't worry). Nice work.
I have a few tips to share from my 6+ years of driving manual:
In "stop 'n go" situations, leave a good amount of distance between you and the car in front of you, stay in first or second gear, foot off the clutch and just use the gas pedal to control your speed. Only clutch when you have to, i.e. traffic completely stops. Your left leg will thank you.
Anytime you are stopped (stop light, stuck in traffic, etc.), shift into neutral, take your foot off the clutch pedal, and have your other foot on the brake. Watch the lights and shift into first shortly before you will need to get moving.
When slowing down to a stop, you don't need to downshift. Just leave the car in gear (4th or whatever) and gently apply the brakes. When you slow to about 25 mph or so, shift into neutral and continue to gently use the brakes to come to a full stop. Very smooth, almost like an automatic.
Practice your shifts and try to make the transition between gears as smooth as possible. In my car, this usually means shifting around 3000 rpm. A slow, smooth release of the clutch pedal helps as well. It takes practice, but when you get it right it's a great feeling.
While the stopping advice you've given makes for smoother stopping (debatable), it's actually needless wear on your brake system that can be handled better by transitioning to lower gears and braking in combination. Totally using the gear system to slow down is not advisable, and neither should be totally reliant on your brakes.
As to whether you need to be in gear when slowing down, certainly I could envision an emergency situation where being in low gear would be advantageous so you could quickly accelerate out, around, or past an obstacle assuming it was safe to do so; this is a low probability situation though (in my 200,000+ miles of driving I've never been in it). The very large majority of emergency situations involve rapid deceleration, so being in gear usually is not an issue.
When I was learning, my dad insisted on downshifting all they way to a stop; he would yell at me when I'd slide it into neutral saying you never know when you will need power.
Now that I've been driving more I look ahead at the traffic. If it looks like I may not have to stop I definitely keep it in gear as I slow down. If it's one hundred percent sure that I have to stop and there is no where I could go if I had to avoid an obstacle then I'll stick it into neutral.
At this point I don't think it really matters - I think you have to ask yourself how many times have you had to avoid an object by accelerating when you are planning on stopping? I've never had to. So while you are learning maybe just stick it in neutral.
Actually, I didn't mean to imply you should freewheel (coast on a road in gear). You should be in gear, I just don't think you have to downshift through each cog when slowing down or on the way to a stop. Personally I think I hastened my clutch to an early demise by always downshifting through each gear cause I just like shifting.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Actually, I didn't mean to imply you should freewheel (coast on a road in gear). You should be in gear, I just don't think you have to downshift through each cog when slowing down or on the way to a stop. Personally I think I hastened my clutch to an early demise by always downshifting through each gear cause I just like shifting.
If you don't downshift properly you'll hasten your clutch.
Just went on another drive. Went pretty smoothly. I think I need the most practice on simply starting from a stop. Once I'm going, switching gears is not a problem at all. Deciding which gear to be in is also a no brainer.
I just need to be much smoother at starting from a stop. Gonna go for another drive a bit later when there is less traffic around. I found a really good spot to practice on - a big long dirt road without much traffic. I kept just starting and then stopping a few car lengths away. over and over. Going to do that again.
By in large yes, though I'm sure there were occasions where I did not rev match as well as I could've due to misjudging distance available or getting cut off. After a not cheap clutch job I've altered my driving to largely go 1-2-top on acceleration and top-2-1 on deceleration instead of rowing through all the gears as I used to.
I've got nothing against engine braking, I'm just less likely to do it now given that to me, replacing brake pads and rotors is not that difficult with the tools at my disposal, whereas I don't know how to replace a clutch or machine a flywheel so I'll get a shop to do that.
When I was learning, my dad insisted on downshifting all they way to a stop; he would yell at me when I'd slide it into neutral saying you never know when you will need power.
Now that I've been driving more I look ahead at the traffic. If it looks like I may not have to stop I definitely keep it in gear as I slow down. If it's one hundred percent sure that I have to stop and there is no where I could go if I had to avoid an obstacle then I'll stick it into neutral.
At this point I don't think it really matters - I think you have to ask yourself how many times have you had to avoid an object by accelerating when you are planning on stopping? I've never had to. So while you are learning maybe just stick it in neutral.
You are wrong, your Dad is right. Shifting into neutral limits your options in unforeseeable situations which are just that: unforeseeable. You don't know if you need power until the situation presents itself. I admit there are few events I can think of where this would be useful (say, a fire engine hurtling up behind you).
The thing that I see time and time again in this thread is "how can I be lazy when I drive? How can I avoid using engine braking? How can I avoid using the hand brake? How can I avoid keeping the car in gear?" These are not the signs of experienced driving, they are the signs of laziness. If you don't want to be in control of the car, use an automatic. Manuals require attention and engagement at all times. I prefer feeling closer to the metal and having more control over proceedings, so I generally prefer manual.
I never said to just shift into neutral and coast all the way to a stop. What I said was to leave the car in gear and gently use your brakes to slow down gradually, then when you are almost stopped, shift into neutral and stop gently using your brakes. This is a combination of "engine braking" and using your brakes. Stopping this way does not put any extra wear on anything and is a very smooth process.
Also, sitting at a stop light holding in the clutch while in gear is basically the same thing as being in neutral and you are just making your left leg tired. You just need to watch the lights/traffic and shift just before you need to get moving.
Now, rolling stops are a different story. For those, I usually just shift into 2nd and get back up to speed after slowing down.
The big thing for me when I was learning was getting started from a full stop. You'll do a bit of jackrabbiting at first (too much gas too soon), and stalling (too little gas), but practice makes perfect. Once you figure the "catch point" of the clutch, all the other stuff comes together.
Also, sitting at a stop light holding in the clutch while in gear is basically the same thing as being in neutral and you are just making your left leg tired. You just need to watch the lights/traffic and shift just before you need to get moving.
You're actually doing quite a bit of damage to the clutch if you're sitting still with the clutch in. It's essentially the same as constantly slipping the clutch.
My only suggestion that hasn't already been discussed in this thread is to keep your foot off the pedal as much as possible. In most of today's hydraulic clutch systems, even a small amount of pressure is enough to cause the clutch disk to slip some on the friction plate.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
What about shifting into neutral when slowing down at a light and then just shifting straight into first at a full stop?
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
Not really. Its just not quite as "proper", if you like, as downshifting.
But its really a preference thing. I downshift because I like to hear the sound of my engine revving down and feel more in control of the car. If others prefer convenience of not downshifting, thats okay too
What about shifting into neutral when slowing down at a light and then just shifting straight into first at a full stop?
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
It doesn't really cause any wear, as long as the clutch is fully disengaged. The problem there is A) Your using only the brakes to reduce speed, more than necessary wear, and If during your deceleration you suddenly have need to match or exceed a neighboring vehicle for an emergency lane change (perhaps a dead vehicle in your lane, or an emergency vehicle approaching from the rear with lights and sirens), you have to find the gear you're supposed to be in or else you're going to over-rev the engine or have too little power.
Also, sitting at a stop light holding in the clutch while in gear is basically the same thing as being in neutral and you are just making your left leg tired. You just need to watch the lights/traffic and shift just before you need to get moving.
You're actually doing quite a bit of damage to the clutch if you're sitting still with the clutch in. It's essentially the same as constantly slipping the clutch.
My only suggestion that hasn't already been discussed in this thread is to keep your foot off the pedal as much as possible. In most of today's hydraulic clutch systems, even a small amount of pressure is enough to cause the clutch disk to slip some on the friction plate.
What? No, this is wrong. Unless your clutch is horribly malfunctioning, a fully depressed clutch pedal should be completely separating the clutch. The only thing wearing at that point is the bearings that are designed to support the shaft while it's idling, and that's entirely normal.
What about shifting into neutral when slowing down at a light and then just shifting straight into first at a full stop?
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
It doesn't really cause any wear, as long as the clutch is fully disengaged. The problem there is A) Your using only the brakes to reduce speed, more than necessary wear, and If during your deceleration you suddenly have need to match or exceed a neighboring vehicle for an emergency lane change (perhaps a dead vehicle in your lane, or an emergency vehicle approaching from the rear with lights and sirens), you have to find the gear you're supposed to be in or else you're going to over-rev the engine or have too little power.
What I usually end up doing pushing the clutch pedal in, and coasting/braking to a stop, all the while "shifting" the gear into what I feel would be an appropriate gear to be in given my current speed while decelerating. This way, the clutch is fully disengaged, and you're still able to pop back into a gear quickly if one of your "emergency" scenarios comes up, or if the light turns green and you need to start accelerating again.
What about shifting into neutral when slowing down at a light and then just shifting straight into first at a full stop?
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
It doesn't really cause any wear, as long as the clutch is fully disengaged. The problem there is A) Your using only the brakes to reduce speed, more than necessary wear, and If during your deceleration you suddenly have need to match or exceed a neighboring vehicle for an emergency lane change (perhaps a dead vehicle in your lane, or an emergency vehicle approaching from the rear with lights and sirens), you have to find the gear you're supposed to be in or else you're going to over-rev the engine or have too little power.
What I usually end up doing pushing the clutch pedal in, and coasting/braking to a stop, all the while "shifting" the gear into what I feel would be an appropriate gear to be in given my current speed while decelerating. This way, the clutch is fully disengaged, and you're still able to pop back into a gear quickly if one of your "emergency" scenarios comes up, or if the light turns green and you need to start accelerating again.
That's better than floating it in Neutral, but I'd still be worried about matching RPM if and when you need to release the clutch (especially for a novice), plus the brake wear issue.
In an emergency situation it's probably best just to stop as quickly as possible. Rapid acceleration or lane changes are likely to put you at more risk then just stopping and if you hit someone in the process of these ninja car manuevers you will likely be found at fault. It's certainly not something a novice shifter should be thinking about.
Edit: That wasn't directed at any particular poster, just re-iterating a basic driving concept: in an emergency, stop.
In an emergency situation it's probably best just to stop as quickly as possible. Rapid acceleration or lane changes are likely to put you at more risk then just stopping and if you hit someone in the process of these ninja car manuevers you will likely be found at fault. It's certainly not something a novice shifter should be thinking about.
Edit: That wasn't directed at any particular poster, just re-iterating a basic driving concept: in an emergency, stop.
If an emergency vehicle is approaching, YOU DO NOT STOP IN THEIR PATH. You pull over to the right, stop, and let them pass. Whether your fellow motorists are smart enough to know/follow this basic rule is a coin-toss, meaning you may have to perform a de facto lane-change to clear a path.
What about shifting into neutral when slowing down at a light and then just shifting straight into first at a full stop?
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
It doesn't really cause any wear, as long as the clutch is fully disengaged. The problem there is A) Your using only the brakes to reduce speed, more than necessary wear, and If during your deceleration you suddenly have need to match or exceed a neighboring vehicle for an emergency lane change (perhaps a dead vehicle in your lane, or an emergency vehicle approaching from the rear with lights and sirens), you have to find the gear you're supposed to be in or else you're going to over-rev the engine or have too little power.
What I usually end up doing pushing the clutch pedal in, and coasting/braking to a stop, all the while "shifting" the gear into what I feel would be an appropriate gear to be in given my current speed while decelerating. This way, the clutch is fully disengaged, and you're still able to pop back into a gear quickly if one of your "emergency" scenarios comes up, or if the light turns green and you need to start accelerating again.
That's better than floating it in Neutral, but I'd still be worried about matching RPM if and when you need to release the clutch (especially for a novice), plus the brake wear issue.
I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
In an emergency situation it's probably best just to stop as quickly as possible. Rapid acceleration or lane changes are likely to put you at more risk then just stopping and if you hit someone in the process of these ninja car manuevers you will likely be found at fault. It's certainly not something a novice shifter should be thinking about.
Edit: That wasn't directed at any particular poster, just re-iterating a basic driving concept: in an emergency, stop.
If an emergency vehicle is approaching, YOU DO NOT STOP IN THEIR PATH. You pull over to the right, stop, and let them pass. Whether your fellow motorists are smart enough to know/follow this basic rule is a coin-toss, meaning you may have to perform a de facto lane-change to clear a path.
An emergency vehicle passing is not an emergency situation, at least not for you.
ok so i just went for another spin in my sister's car (2nd attempt at stick driving).
I am much more comfortable than my first time - my sister said she's actually super jealous of how well I am doing. I don't really have problems of having to look at the stick to figure out what gear im in so that isn't an issue, I can kinda just feel that with my hand, or remember. So far I haven't ever forgot what I'm in.
I'm also really getting what you guys are talking about with hills. Luckily my driveway is on a slight hill so its a good place to practice.
So I've got some questions about the handbreak method on hills.
In that situation you really need to put on the handbrake. Get the revs up so you can feel it straining slightly against the brake then let it off. If you havn't mastered clutch control in a manual I wouldn't attempt a hill start on clutch control alone under any circumstances.
Is this the correct way to perform a hill start using a handbreak? Maybe other people can pipe in about that.
So essentially when performing this move, this is what I'm doing right?:
1) clutch down. Foot on break. Handbreak on. Make car turn on now. First Gear.
2) Ease up on clutch to get that "grabbing point" or whatever its called* + Foot on gas tiny bit.
3) like 1 second after step 2 release hand break.
Is that correct?
*Also was really noticing this during my 2nd outing! Felt good.
We call it the biting point but yeah you have it right there. The trick is just never release the hand brake until you feel the car hit the bite, as long as you do that the car will never roll backwards, if you pull the clutch up too quickly and stall the car still shouldn't roll backwards since it'll be in first gear (with classic cars they always say leave it in gear so it doesn't roll away).
Sounds like you're getting the hang of it though, the real trick to manual cars is to get the feel for the "biting point". After that like you said knowing what year to be in is a no brainer. If starting from a full stop is proving to be difficult for you you can apply a *small* amount of gas while lifting the clutch.
What about shifting into neutral when slowing down at a light and then just shifting straight into first at a full stop?
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
It doesn't really cause any wear, as long as the clutch is fully disengaged. The problem there is A) Your using only the brakes to reduce speed, more than necessary wear, and If during your deceleration you suddenly have need to match or exceed a neighboring vehicle for an emergency lane change (perhaps a dead vehicle in your lane, or an emergency vehicle approaching from the rear with lights and sirens), you have to find the gear you're supposed to be in or else you're going to over-rev the engine or have too little power.
What I usually end up doing pushing the clutch pedal in, and coasting/braking to a stop, all the while "shifting" the gear into what I feel would be an appropriate gear to be in given my current speed while decelerating. This way, the clutch is fully disengaged, and you're still able to pop back into a gear quickly if one of your "emergency" scenarios comes up, or if the light turns green and you need to start accelerating again.
That's better than floating it in Neutral, but I'd still be worried about matching RPM if and when you need to release the clutch (especially for a novice), plus the brake wear issue.
I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
Most people should be able to learn to down-shift properly without significantly degrading their clutch. My dad taught myself, my brother, and my sister to drive manual in his 97 Toyota Tercel, including proper down-shift technique. My sister got that car as her university-era mode of transportation, and at the end of it's life (tragically cut short at 450,000kms last year, when my dad was driving it and got rear-ended by a pickup) it was running it's original clutch and transmission, and had only had the brake pads replaced twice (front, both sides, both replaced immediately after either side got down to the noise layer). As far as I know the rear shoes never needed replacing.
I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
Shifting down as your stopping wears the brakes, clutch, and the transmission.
Brakes are the cheapest of the three so hit neutral.
That's what my father was told by his father.
And what my neighbor was told by his father and what he was taught by HIS father.
Yes you should be in gear, if you can't get into the appropriate gear fast enough for any situation then don't do this. But any experienced driver should be able to.
I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
Shifting down as your stopping wears the brakes, clutch, and the transmission.
Brakes are the cheapest of the three so hit neutral.
That's what my father was told by his father.
And what my neighbor was told by his father and what he was taught by HIS father.
Yes you should be in gear, if you can't get into the appropriate gear fast enough for any situation then don't do this. But any experienced driver should be able to.
So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?
New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.
2 brake jobs and and the original clutch on a 450K km consumer vehicle is far far outside of normal wear patterns and probably is indicative of a lot of highway driving.
In my experience clutches last maybe 100k miles and pads maybe 40K. There's littleinfo on average lifetimes of wearable parts cause so much of it depends upon the driver and driving conditions.
Edit: I knew a lady who burned out a clutch in 700 miles.
2 brake jobs and and the original clutch on a 450K km consumer vehicle is far far outside of normal wear patterns and probably is indicative of a lot of highway driving.
In my experience clutches last maybe 100k miles and pads maybe 40K. There's littleinfo on average lifetimes of wearable parts cause so much of it depends upon the driver and driving conditions.
Edit: I knew a lady who burned out a clutch in 700 miles.
That was about 70% highway km's. My Dad commuted about 130km (about 90km on the highway) daily in it for about 7 years, and then my sister drove it around her city for the last 5, living and driving to school and work in the city and driving home (about 500km roundtrip, almost all highway) about once a month.
So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?
New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.
Most cars are still pretty much the same mechanically.
More and higher revs while down-shifting causes wear on the clutch and transmission through use alone.
No matter what, just like putting miles on your car is wear.
His car is over 50 years old and the dad was a racing driver. Shit they built their last car from scratch. I'll listen to them.
Regardless brakes are cheaper and easier to put on at least 100 fold on any car. Shit, I can replace brakes and I'm a mechanical idiot.
And to back pedal a bit. The guy balancing his car on the hill with his clutch/gas.
Sounds like fucking the clutch to me.
But again, mechanical idiot. I always thought you should never be leaving it half engaged like that.
So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?
New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.
Most cars are still pretty much the same mechanically.
More and higher revs while down-shifting causes wear on the clutch and transmission through use alone.
No matter what, just like putting miles on your car is wear.
His car is over 50 years old and the dad was a racing driver. Shit they built their last car from scratch. I'll listen to them.
Regardless brakes are cheaper and easier to put on at least 100 fold on any car. Shit, I can replace brakes and I'm a mechanical idiot.
And to back pedal a bit. The guy balancing his car on the hill with his clutch/gas. Sounds like fucking the clutch to me.
But again, mechanical idiot. I always thought you should never be leaving it half engaged like that.
I never said sitting at the light while holding the clutch in was a good thing. It is bad, because then you are wearing out your throw-out bearing, plus wearing out your left leg. I was making the point since it sounded like people would rather sit at a light holding the clutch in while in gear instead of simply shifting into neutral and relaxing their leg for a minute.
When you are at a full stop, you should have your foot off the clutch, other foot on the brake, and watch the lights so you can shift into gear just before you need to start moving.
I never said sitting at the light while holding the clutch in was a good thing. It is bad, because then you are wearing out your throw-out bearing, plus wearing out your left leg. I was making the point since it sounded like people would rather sit at a light holding the clutch in while in gear instead of simply shifting into neutral and relaxing their leg for a minute.
When you are at a full stop, you should have your foot off the clutch, other foot on the brake, and watch the lights so you can shift into gear just before you need to start moving.
We were actually referring to an earlier post where somebody suggested feathering the clutch and gas to maintain position whilst stopped on an incline. In any situation, the best option is usually to have the clutch fully depressed, transmission in gear, and right foot on the brake. If the transition of right foot from brake to gas is too difficult for them to begin with, the parking or E-Brake method is a viable alternative.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I never said sitting at the light while holding the clutch in was a good thing. It is bad, because then you are wearing out your throw-out bearing, plus wearing out your left leg. I was making the point since it sounded like people would rather sit at a light holding the clutch in while in gear instead of simply shifting into neutral and relaxing their leg for a minute.
When you are at a full stop, you should have your foot off the clutch, other foot on the brake, and watch the lights so you can shift into gear just before you need to start moving.
on a similar note, does anyone else hate it when you're first at the lights and you can't see the other lights the other way?
its annoying having to watch the lights constantly for when they turn green.
The big thing for me when I was learning was getting started from a full stop. You'll do a bit of jackrabbiting at first (too much gas too soon), and stalling (too little gas), but practice makes perfect. Once you figure the "catch point" of the clutch, all the other stuff comes together.
this is where I'm at right now. When I'm moving its no problem. Its just starting that I need to work on.
One thing that I had a problem with, is I was popping the clutch out really fast cuz I was afraid of wearing down the clutch. Combine that with using a bit too much gas, and you get the jackrabbit effect. For the first little while, don't be afraid to let out the clutch slowly/push the accelerator down slowly at the same time. Kinda like a pulley system: as the clutch comes up, the gas pedal goes down.
Yes, you probably will put a bit of wear on the clutch as you find the spot where the clutch engaging and the right amount of gas to use at that point, but you kinda have to do this for the first little while to get the hang of things. Once I got over my fear of wearing down the clutch, this came a lot easier.
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Asides from that advise, I would say that you should try to learn which gear you are in without looking at the gearstick - it is important to break yourself f the habit of taking your eyes off the road to check this if you do it. If necessary, get a friend to change gears from the passenger seat, and then you check the gear position by feel, doing this a few times should give you a feel of which gear you are in.
If you are really a glutton for punishment, try hillstarting in reverse (reversing uphill from a standing start). Although it is good for getting a handle on what to do with the handbrake without looking at it(because you are looking out the rear window while you reverse right?).
I am much more comfortable than my first time - my sister said she's actually super jealous of how well I am doing. I don't really have problems of having to look at the stick to figure out what gear im in so that isn't an issue, I can kinda just feel that with my hand, or remember. So far I haven't ever forgot what I'm in.
I'm also really getting what you guys are talking about with hills. Luckily my driveway is on a slight hill so its a good place to practice.
So I've got some questions about the handbreak method on hills.
Is this the correct way to perform a hill start using a handbreak? Maybe other people can pipe in about that.
So essentially when performing this move, this is what I'm doing right?:
1) clutch down. Foot on break. Handbreak on. Make car turn on now. First Gear.
2) Ease up on clutch to get that "grabbing point" or whatever its called* + Foot on gas tiny bit.
3) like 1 second after step 2 release hand break.
Is that correct?
*Also was really noticing this during my 2nd outing! Felt good.
Stop being a silly goose before you pull an infraction k
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
I assume you've commandeered an empty parking lot or two for 1st gear practice? Once you're in first, getting to second and above is always going to be a lot easier, and a lot quicker. The tiny bit of gas you give it while easing up on the pedal going into first is supposed to be just enough to keep the engine from stalling out, but not so much that you outdo the clutch. When you nail it, it feels awesome.
Super awesome! As you get more confident you'll need to wait less between finding the bite point and the gas and letting the brake go (leaving it too long will give you screaming engine noise and possibly wheelspin as you take off, but it sounds like you're not overdoing it so don't worry). Nice work.
In "stop 'n go" situations, leave a good amount of distance between you and the car in front of you, stay in first or second gear, foot off the clutch and just use the gas pedal to control your speed. Only clutch when you have to, i.e. traffic completely stops. Your left leg will thank you.
Anytime you are stopped (stop light, stuck in traffic, etc.), shift into neutral, take your foot off the clutch pedal, and have your other foot on the brake. Watch the lights and shift into first shortly before you will need to get moving.
When slowing down to a stop, you don't need to downshift. Just leave the car in gear (4th or whatever) and gently apply the brakes. When you slow to about 25 mph or so, shift into neutral and continue to gently use the brakes to come to a full stop. Very smooth, almost like an automatic.
Practice your shifts and try to make the transition between gears as smooth as possible. In my car, this usually means shifting around 3000 rpm. A slow, smooth release of the clutch pedal helps as well. It takes practice, but when you get it right it's a great feeling.
Mmmmm....toasty.
When I was learning, my dad insisted on downshifting all they way to a stop; he would yell at me when I'd slide it into neutral saying you never know when you will need power.
Now that I've been driving more I look ahead at the traffic. If it looks like I may not have to stop I definitely keep it in gear as I slow down. If it's one hundred percent sure that I have to stop and there is no where I could go if I had to avoid an obstacle then I'll stick it into neutral.
At this point I don't think it really matters - I think you have to ask yourself how many times have you had to avoid an object by accelerating when you are planning on stopping? I've never had to. So while you are learning maybe just stick it in neutral.
If you don't downshift properly you'll hasten your clutch.
If you do, the extra wear will be minimal.
Did you rev-match when you were downshifting?
I just need to be much smoother at starting from a stop. Gonna go for another drive a bit later when there is less traffic around. I found a really good spot to practice on - a big long dirt road without much traffic. I kept just starting and then stopping a few car lengths away. over and over. Going to do that again.
By in large yes, though I'm sure there were occasions where I did not rev match as well as I could've due to misjudging distance available or getting cut off. After a not cheap clutch job I've altered my driving to largely go 1-2-top on acceleration and top-2-1 on deceleration instead of rowing through all the gears as I used to.
I've got nothing against engine braking, I'm just less likely to do it now given that to me, replacing brake pads and rotors is not that difficult with the tools at my disposal, whereas I don't know how to replace a clutch or machine a flywheel so I'll get a shop to do that.
You are wrong, your Dad is right. Shifting into neutral limits your options in unforeseeable situations which are just that: unforeseeable. You don't know if you need power until the situation presents itself. I admit there are few events I can think of where this would be useful (say, a fire engine hurtling up behind you).
The thing that I see time and time again in this thread is "how can I be lazy when I drive? How can I avoid using engine braking? How can I avoid using the hand brake? How can I avoid keeping the car in gear?" These are not the signs of experienced driving, they are the signs of laziness. If you don't want to be in control of the car, use an automatic. Manuals require attention and engagement at all times. I prefer feeling closer to the metal and having more control over proceedings, so I generally prefer manual.
Also, sitting at a stop light holding in the clutch while in gear is basically the same thing as being in neutral and you are just making your left leg tired. You just need to watch the lights/traffic and shift just before you need to get moving.
Now, rolling stops are a different story. For those, I usually just shift into 2nd and get back up to speed after slowing down.
Does that increase wear or cause damage at all? It's really convenient.
You're actually doing quite a bit of damage to the clutch if you're sitting still with the clutch in. It's essentially the same as constantly slipping the clutch.
My only suggestion that hasn't already been discussed in this thread is to keep your foot off the pedal as much as possible. In most of today's hydraulic clutch systems, even a small amount of pressure is enough to cause the clutch disk to slip some on the friction plate.
Not really. Its just not quite as "proper", if you like, as downshifting.
But its really a preference thing. I downshift because I like to hear the sound of my engine revving down and feel more in control of the car. If others prefer convenience of not downshifting, thats okay too
It doesn't really cause any wear, as long as the clutch is fully disengaged. The problem there is A) Your using only the brakes to reduce speed, more than necessary wear, and
What? No, this is wrong. Unless your clutch is horribly malfunctioning, a fully depressed clutch pedal should be completely separating the clutch. The only thing wearing at that point is the bearings that are designed to support the shaft while it's idling, and that's entirely normal.
What I usually end up doing pushing the clutch pedal in, and coasting/braking to a stop, all the while "shifting" the gear into what I feel would be an appropriate gear to be in given my current speed while decelerating. This way, the clutch is fully disengaged, and you're still able to pop back into a gear quickly if one of your "emergency" scenarios comes up, or if the light turns green and you need to start accelerating again.
That's better than floating it in Neutral, but I'd still be worried about matching RPM if and when you need to release the clutch (especially for a novice), plus the brake wear issue.
Edit: That wasn't directed at any particular poster, just re-iterating a basic driving concept: in an emergency, stop.
If an emergency vehicle is approaching, YOU DO NOT STOP IN THEIR PATH. You pull over to the right, stop, and let them pass. Whether your fellow motorists are smart enough to know/follow this basic rule is a coin-toss, meaning you may have to perform a de facto lane-change to clear a path.
I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
An emergency vehicle passing is not an emergency situation, at least not for you.
We call it the biting point but yeah you have it right there. The trick is just never release the hand brake until you feel the car hit the bite, as long as you do that the car will never roll backwards, if you pull the clutch up too quickly and stall the car still shouldn't roll backwards since it'll be in first gear (with classic cars they always say leave it in gear so it doesn't roll away).
Sounds like you're getting the hang of it though, the real trick to manual cars is to get the feel for the "biting point". After that like you said knowing what year to be in is a no brainer. If starting from a full stop is proving to be difficult for you you can apply a *small* amount of gas while lifting the clutch.
Most people should be able to learn to down-shift properly without significantly degrading their clutch. My dad taught myself, my brother, and my sister to drive manual in his 97 Toyota Tercel, including proper down-shift technique. My sister got that car as her university-era mode of transportation, and at the end of it's life (tragically cut short at 450,000kms last year, when my dad was driving it and got rear-ended by a pickup) it was running it's original clutch and transmission, and had only had the brake pads replaced twice (front, both sides, both replaced immediately after either side got down to the noise layer). As far as I know the rear shoes never needed replacing.
Brakes are the cheapest of the three so hit neutral.
That's what my father was told by his father.
And what my neighbor was told by his father and what he was taught by HIS father.
Yes you should be in gear, if you can't get into the appropriate gear fast enough for any situation then don't do this. But any experienced driver should be able to.
So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?
New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.
In my experience clutches last maybe 100k miles and pads maybe 40K. There's little info on average lifetimes of wearable parts cause so much of it depends upon the driver and driving conditions.
Edit: I knew a lady who burned out a clutch in 700 miles.
That was about 70% highway km's. My Dad commuted about 130km (about 90km on the highway) daily in it for about 7 years, and then my sister drove it around her city for the last 5, living and driving to school and work in the city and driving home (about 500km roundtrip, almost all highway) about once a month.
More and higher revs while down-shifting causes wear on the clutch and transmission through use alone.
No matter what, just like putting miles on your car is wear.
His car is over 50 years old and the dad was a racing driver. Shit they built their last car from scratch. I'll listen to them.
Regardless brakes are cheaper and easier to put on at least 100 fold on any car. Shit, I can replace brakes and I'm a mechanical idiot.
And to back pedal a bit. The guy balancing his car on the hill with his clutch/gas.
Sounds like fucking the clutch to me.
But again, mechanical idiot. I always thought you should never be leaving it half engaged like that.
At least we can agree on something.
When you are at a full stop, you should have your foot off the clutch, other foot on the brake, and watch the lights so you can shift into gear just before you need to start moving.
We were actually referring to an earlier post where somebody suggested feathering the clutch and gas to maintain position whilst stopped on an incline. In any situation, the best option is usually to have the clutch fully depressed, transmission in gear, and right foot on the brake. If the transition of right foot from brake to gas is too difficult for them to begin with, the parking or E-Brake method is a viable alternative.
on a similar note, does anyone else hate it when you're first at the lights and you can't see the other lights the other way?
its annoying having to watch the lights constantly for when they turn green.
this is where I'm at right now. When I'm moving its no problem. Its just starting that I need to work on.
Yes, you probably will put a bit of wear on the clutch as you find the spot where the clutch engaging and the right amount of gas to use at that point, but you kinda have to do this for the first little while to get the hang of things. Once I got over my fear of wearing down the clutch, this came a lot easier.