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Apt. Neighbor Mishandles Aggressive Dog
NailbunnyPD
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
For about a year now, I have been having problems with a neighbor in our condo building who does not handle her *breed* very well. She is a petite girl, and walks the dog on a standard leash and collar, usually holding the leash at the end furthest from the dog. To her credit, she tries to avoid other dog owners in the building, but its not fool-proof.
Our first encounter was in July of last year when we brought our 13 week old puppy home. His second day home, I was house training on the side of the building. She attempts to exit the building as we are walking past the door, and her dog pulls her out the door, completely out of control. Her dog lunged and, fortunately, only slobbered my pups neck as she happened to gain control. He went for a second lunge, but I put my foot down in front of his face as she gained control again. Her response was "Don't kick my dog!" I was appalled, but I decided not to escalate it there.
I decided to file a complaint with our condo administrator, but there was nothing that the condo association could do. I then filed a complaint with Animal Control, but they told me there was little they could do unless the dog actually attacked and bit. They did say they would contact her and discuss the consequences of a successful attack and offer some recommendations. I don't know if that happened.
Since then, when we pass each other in the common areas or outside, she makes passive aggressive comments to her dog about me or my girlfriend. We chuckle, because its quite immature and pathetic. We also keep these encounters documented in case anything should ever come of it. She never changes the way she handles the dog, though.
Yesterday, we had a repeat encounter of the July incident, except she gained control a foot or two away from us. There was a witness. Again, I reported it to the condo admin, who again said she could not do anything except keep it documented.
At this point, I feel pretty helpless as far as protecting my dogs, myself, or my girlfriend from this reckless girl and her aggressive *breed*. I will be calling animal control again, but I don't expect they'll be of much help, since it clearly didn't change anything the first time. I've been reluctant to communicate with the girl directly because, well, she is not very pleasant and I don't think she would be rational.
What do I do? I am thinking about leaving some documentation in her mailbox regarding the Gentle Leader head collar and some other collars she might want to consider, and whether I should attach a letter. Maybe even include the training DVD from our gentle leader.
Our first encounter was in July of last year when we brought our 13 week old puppy home. His second day home, I was house training on the side of the building. She attempts to exit the building as we are walking past the door, and her dog pulls her out the door, completely out of control. Her dog lunged and, fortunately, only slobbered my pups neck as she happened to gain control. He went for a second lunge, but I put my foot down in front of his face as she gained control again. Her response was "Don't kick my dog!" I was appalled, but I decided not to escalate it there.
I decided to file a complaint with our condo administrator, but there was nothing that the condo association could do. I then filed a complaint with Animal Control, but they told me there was little they could do unless the dog actually attacked and bit. They did say they would contact her and discuss the consequences of a successful attack and offer some recommendations. I don't know if that happened.
Since then, when we pass each other in the common areas or outside, she makes passive aggressive comments to her dog about me or my girlfriend. We chuckle, because its quite immature and pathetic. We also keep these encounters documented in case anything should ever come of it. She never changes the way she handles the dog, though.
Yesterday, we had a repeat encounter of the July incident, except she gained control a foot or two away from us. There was a witness. Again, I reported it to the condo admin, who again said she could not do anything except keep it documented.
At this point, I feel pretty helpless as far as protecting my dogs, myself, or my girlfriend from this reckless girl and her aggressive *breed*. I will be calling animal control again, but I don't expect they'll be of much help, since it clearly didn't change anything the first time. I've been reluctant to communicate with the girl directly because, well, she is not very pleasant and I don't think she would be rational.
What do I do? I am thinking about leaving some documentation in her mailbox regarding the Gentle Leader head collar and some other collars she might want to consider, and whether I should attach a letter. Maybe even include the training DVD from our gentle leader.
NailbunnyPD on
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NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
It sucks, but she might not be intentionally making the dog aggressive or training it poorly, she might just suck with a leash.
That's entirely the problem. The dog is too powerful for her using a standard leash and collar, and she won't even attempt to use anything else, like a prong collar or gentle leader. The condo admin suggested a muzzle, but she feared it would only make the dog more aggressive. :?:
I guess I am looking for a way to communicate to this girl that she needs to take some better precautions to prevent an attack. God forbid it ever happens, I doubt either of us want to suffer the consequences. I would do everything in my power to make sure the dog is euthanized.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
I'm amazed at the lack of information on the internet about dealing with aggressive dogs other than your own.
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusdeoddover_wilmington.htm#s31
Now it might be a stretch to claim its a dangerous dog based on the definitions in the ordinance, but there is mention of public nuisance in the following section.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
I would probably pepper spray the dog if it charged at your pup again, and tell her that if they actually fight that you wont be treating her dog kindly when you try to break it up with physical force.
She sounds a little ditzy and maybe it hasn't sunk in that her dogs behavior isn't just annoying, it's dangerous and unacceptable.
I'm not advocating you threaten violence, just be sure she's aware that your responsibility is to your pup and not to her aggressive animal, and it's her responsibility to walk her dog properly.
Having been in a similar situation (girl not being able to control a dog-aggressive dominant dog) I can tell you she's not going to listen to you and offerring advice is pointless and will likely invite additional passive-aggressive BS. You aren't going to change her behavior cause she doesn't see a problem. In my case, their dog actually bit my wifes dog (who was displaying very submissive behavior). Even then management wouldn't get involved, though I did get some money out of them to address the 1st vet bill. I filed a report with animal control, but they said they couldn't really do anything (I guess cause our dog didn't die or something?), though perhaps if there's another reported incident with that dog there might be grounds to have the animal put down.
Avoid her, and maybe pick up some strong pepper spray or something if you are concerned about an attack, though if you do that make sure you know how to use it so you don't end up macing yourself.
Edit: Though I'm pessimistic given this has been going on for a year and the passive-aggressive stuff, you cannot lose anything by trying to talk to her. I think a conversation would be a better way of dealing with it then a note though. Like "Hi, I'm NailbunnyPD, I think we got off on the wrong foot ..." and maybe have some brownies/cookies or something; the key to succesful communication is getting past any defensiveness she might have. I might hold off buying any particular control mechanism though. The gentle leader did not work for my dog (he wouldn't tolerate it and would open up wounds on his muzzle to get it off), and though a harness was able to give me control over a powerful pulling dog, it wasn''t helpful in inhibitting the pulling at all. I had to break my guy on a pinch collar to retrain him for the leash. I'm looking to pick up an illusion lead/collar so if he ever starts pulling again I don't need to use the pinch collar. It's supposed to be good for powerful pullers with strong necks.
NailbunnyPD is on the apartment council, so they must interact with other tenants- Someone else must have complaints as well about this dog to strengthen their case?
Looking at it from her point of view, she's trying to control her dog, but its difficult. Maybe she just needs a couple pointers or reassurance that a different collar won't hurt the dog, etc.
You really can't do much to affect the other dog long term. Are you willing to buy a gentle leader for her? Getting it in hot pink or baby blue or one of their new cute patterns might help the owner accept it.
If you are looking for ways to stop the dog while it is lunging at you you can try citronella spray, air horns or even throwing food at the dog (it will distract the dog and give you time to get away as long as your dog has a solid leave-it).
Just protect your dog from the other dog and try your best to explain to the dog owner why she's in the wrong, not using passive aggressive note dropping but in direct, clear terms. "It's clear you have trouble holding you have trouble holding your dog back when it lunges. If it ever bit me, it would be euthanized and you'd be in some legal trouble. I really recommend X product to help you walk it more safely."
My sister was so embarrassed she ended up sending the dog back home to live with my parents who have a more room for him.
The way he described it she barely has control of the dog. It's a matter of time before she loses hold of the leash entirely, and spraying it with pepper spray when it's running at you is a lot nicer than breaking it's jaw with a boot if it engages your animal.
I would only advise spraying it if the alternative is a physical confrontation that would result in additional risk of harm.
I'm sorry your neighbors is an idiot Nailbunny. My neighbors as a kid were idiots too, and I have the scars (while they have the dead dog) to prove it.
*removed*
I have a spare head collar, and you'll see I offer to loan it to her if she wants to try it. The pepper spray idea might be a good one, but I would fear spraying my own dogs, or even being a bit trigger happy with it. I guess that is better than losing my dogs to an attack.
I'm not the only tenant with concerns, but I don't know if anyone else has had near attacks like I have. I walk my dogs A LOT, so there is a lot of opportunity for this to happen. I am actually surprised its been 10 months between incidents.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
Yeah, I wouldn't want to hit your own dogs with it, but if it breaks up an otherwise violent confrontation, and your dog is passive and moves behind you or is submissive, I don't think you'd hit it in the face/eyes/nose as easily as the dog who is bull rushing.
I like the letter. Keep a copy.
edit: When I was a 9-10 there was a neighbor who had dogs who would constantly jump the fence and chase me home. They were aggressive but not exceedingly violent, though they would have torn me up. I filled a squirt gun with window cleaner, soap, water and some cayenne pepper. After spraying them in the face with it one day on the walk home when they were running along their fence to hop over the smallest part, they cowered and left me alone.
I didn't even have to carry the squirt gun after a couple days, I could just hold up my hand.
I would imagine pepper spray may have the same effect were you to actually have to use it.
I think the first paragraph is likely to put her on the defensive and then she's not going to take the rest in at all. Just my 2 cents.
Notes are considered a passive-aggressive way of dealing with confrontations for a reason.
Everything you have done so far has been going (more or less) out of your way not to deal with this problem directly. Deal with this problem directly. Talk to her. Explain the situation. Tell her that if her dog's teeth actually connect with you or your dog, it will likely be put to sleep. Don't use the word "put down." Hell, you might even want to say, "Animal control will take your dog and kill it."
Don't put a letter in her mailbox. Passive aggressive actions never solve arguments.
Yes. Just say "If your dog bites mine, animal control legally obligated to take him, and possibly kill him. Neither of us want that".
She saw her dog about to be kicked for doing something it probably always has done.
You saw her being out of control and feared for your dog's safety.
The initial altercation was the best opportunity for you to discuss this matter with her, and given that you had a second altercation and still didn't engage her like an adult, I guess a passive-aggressive, condescending letter would be your logical next step. That letter is really a bad idea, but if you're scared of actually talking with her, you're better off simply not bothering with the letter and just staying away from where she walks her dog.
Notes may be passive aggressive, but they're also harder to deny or "misremember" in court than a face-to-face conversation. I can picture her hearing, "Look, if your dog bites someone there's a good chance it will be put to sleep" and interpreting it as "He threatened to KILL MY DOG, OMG!"
This girl sounds like an idiot and crapass dog owner, so I'm pessimistic about anything getting through to her until her dog actually bites someone.
I also would suggest talking to her when shes not defensive, in public and embarrassed while trying to control her much stronger than her dog. Meaning you'll have to be less passive aggressive and seek her out.
You are being absolutely silly.
So I don't think it's silly at all.
If you are good at lying saying something along the lines of "Hey, I noticed that your dog is a pretty strong puller, I used to have that problem and this gentle leader helped me, would you like to borrow it?" is more likely to get a positive response than telling her you are going to try to get her dog killed if it bites yours.
Also, I know you are already looking at your local animal control laws, but I haven't heard of any places where a dog biting another dog once results in the first dog being euthanized. Lying to her about the law isn't exactly going to help your cause.
EDIT: also citronella spray is probably a better idea than pepper spray. It is more of a liquid stream so you are less likely to get yourself or your dog by accident.
If it makes you feel better, go ahead.
If you attempt to engage in dialogue you have the opportunity to change directions or alter tone in response to immediate feedback, engage in some kind of ice-breaking banter, lots of stuff you cannot do in a letter or is much more difficult to do; overall it's just much more likely to result in positive outcomes if you can approach it with an open mind and some sensitivity.
Kistra: Is citronella effective?
If you go pepper spray route you can opt for a foam, which directs a more coherent stream and has no mist, it also clings better. I'd hate to see a pet sprayed, but I think it may be necessary in an attack situation with a powerful dog and an owner who's overpowered.
OP, you need to take some responsibility for how poorly you handled this to begin with. You should try speaking with her as a "starting over" kind of gesture. But seriously, if it looked like you were about to kick my dog, no matter what was happening at the time, things would be escalating very f-ing quickly.
I really only see her with her dog, and I rarely am out and about without mine. Also, based on the comments she has made to her dog, I really have no interest in having a face to face conversation without a witness present. She has said some crazy things and I don't want her to falsify our conversation to try to get me in trouble. I would rather do it via letter so that I have documentation.
Regarding euthanization, its in the ordinance, and it came up when I spoke with animal control last year. Its a very real possibility, so I don't think I am lying about that.
I will certainly look into citronella spray.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
So what response WOULD you think was appropriate if you didn't have control of your dog and it was about to attack someone else's pet?
I don't see anything crazy about the OP's initial response. If someone/something tried to attack my dog, I would defend it.
anyways. more than likely the girl just doesn't accept that her dog is aggressive. no matter what you say to her , it unfortunately won't sink in until the dog does some damage.
i would just try and be extra careful to not have your dog around it.
also while not technically biting, lunging and slobbering the scruff is aggressive behavior and you should be able to get something done about it especially if it happens more than once.
those citronella sprays only really work since they surprise the dog and that causes them to stop
I'm not saying his response is totally out of line, but hyper-reactionary dog owners can be just as bad as lax ones. I'm not saying this is the case, and of course the OP should protect his pet from a real threat... but I've seen numerous dog owners at various dog parts actually escalate situations that didn't need it.
This is sort of an example why I would want it as a formal letter. If a dog attacked my cat (which yes, I walk with a fucking leash) the dog would be dead, there would be no need to call animal control to come catch it or write a citation.
People often don't see their pet/child as the problem, it's always someone else or not that big of a deal. Talk to her about it by all means, be courteous, polite and non threatening. You may be best off leaving a small letter with your concerns and contact information so you can meet somewhere neutral without the pets around and have a normal discussion.
You sound like you don't want this thing to just continue as is with the risk of harm to yourself, your pet or her pet. She should have no problems with working this out civilized.
edit:
Something along the lines of,
Hello Sally Spoildog,
I'd like to come to some agreement on a solution to the problem between our pets. I'm concerned for the safety of both animals and would prefer to have a discussion at your earliest convenience to work this out. <insert friendly banter>
Sincerely,
Nailbunny
(phone)
(email)
Keep in mind, I had the dog approximately 24 hours. In the heat of the moment, I didn't really have time tothink the situation through. Maybe I should have gone for the leash, but who's to say that wouldn't have given the dog time to attack. My guy went all submissive, he didn't try to flee. It was a 70+ lbs Shar Pei vs a 25-30 lbs puppy. My immediate reaction was to put myself between them, regardless of the consequences.
Besides, this thread isn't about what I should have done, but what I should do now.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
That also sounds good. Nothing better than a formal, nonthreatening letter from you, and then a poisonous, hate-filled voicemail from her in case you need evidence.