So I just bought Dual spec for my lv 48 shammy to give him an enhance spec. Not really sure if i've been doing it right though. i pretty much drop totems then fire nova, flame shock, lava lash and stormstrike on cooldown. Is there more order to it like a do a then b type of thing or is it just a cluster of ability CDs?
I wouldn't really bother with fire nova but you're doing okay. It is technically a priority system, but you won't be able to do the whole list until closer to 80.
what abilities does the stormstrike ability effect by the way?
Nature school so pretty much just windfury procs at mid level I guess? I guess I could switch to earth shocking once the stormstrike debuf is up but flame shock doesn't need a refresh
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
Dont forget lightning shield, which while leveling is prolly a much larger portion of your damage than normal.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
When will ele not have to run into melee to do aoe?
When you're casting Earthquake?
I love how Ghost Crawler handles dumb questions.
More about shaman, according to GC they're still constantly tweaking the mana regen in the game and every time they do it kinda dicks with paladins and shaman.
It's not the intent that Enhancement has to worry about mana a lot. Generally you should have enough mana to do what you want to do. It's a model we're still adjusting. We haven't quite established a base regen for the casters and healers that we're happy with and every time we tweak that, it affects the Ret paladins and Enhancement shaman, who aren't really supposed to be mana-constrained.
Also, there's a chance the first two tiers of talents will continue to see tweaks. I'm not as upset with enhancement's first 2 tiers as the poster who prompted this response from GC though. I'm actually fine with it. The poster's concern was that the elemental weapons talent scales with level rather than with gear.
The model we're trying to use for all the classes is that you can't just soak up no-brainer talents in the first few tiers. Often there is a dps talent, and then a survival talent and then maybe an efficiency talent. You definitely get the first one, but you often need to get one of the others to progress down. This is what we mean about not being able to cherry pick just throughput-oriented talents and skipping everything else that is utility, etc. It's an evolving process though. I'm not sure I could point to a class yet and say "There. We nailed it."
Also, we might get shield changes that will be friendly toward elemental spec. Which is kind of a long time coming.
Lightning and Water shield do not seem that useful for Elemental in many ways.
Agreed. This is something we're discussing. A new shield doesn't have to be the answer though.
Last thing that caught my eye is that they're trying to fix Searing Totem so that it doesn't pull mobs when you're out of combat.
Also, we might get shield changes that will be friendly toward elemental spec. Which is kind of a long time coming.
Lightning and Water shield do not seem that useful for Elemental in many ways.
Agreed. This is something we're discussing. A new shield doesn't have to be the answer though.
Yeah, I saw that post when looking in MMO's blue tracker. My idea is to have lightning bolt crits set off what amounts to a lighting shield charge ala Imp. Water Shield. Flame Shield would rock, but I don't think that's the direction they want to go.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
I proposed a flame shield idea to the blue team years ago in the days before static shock existed, to improve enhancement (back in the day when it was less spell + melee and more melee).
Well, no, seeing how Enh Shaman are quite badass in Wrath.
I don't generally count gimmick 2vs2 and 3vs3 comps as the whole spec being viable.
I don't generally count Arena as a part of the game that is worthy of any consideration.
Then it baffles me how you could possibly think enhanceement shamans are badass in Wrath PvP. Please, elaborate, because as far as I can tell, for anything more involving than ganking lower levels, enhancement shamans remain too easily controlled in battle.
What classes am I supposed to be able to beat easily as an enhancement shaman?
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Right now I know that gear is a problem for me. I just got back into the game after having my account hacked back in the beginning of last year. Yes, I don't have a full PvP set. Yes, I'm at 21,000 hp. And yes, I'm playing with a good bit of lag (good ol' deployed internet connection.) So I'm caught in the catch 22 of needing honor to upgrade PvP gear, but getting that honor would involve me spending a lot of time staring at the graveyard waiting to be rezzed.
And even when I do, a lot of the problems will still be there, it'll just take a little longer for me to die.
To me, with my very limited experience with enhancement pvp, Wolves are a big thing. As in, without them, enhancement shaman tend to struggle.
I don't know if it's down to the generally low health pool most shaman have, or the proc system, but good luck to any enhancement shaman out there not going in with a mate to support them.
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
While I PvP as resto I also have a hunter that I use for BGs and WG, so I feel I can say the following with some experience: PvP gear makes a huge difference, especially in large scale battles.
If I'm on my shaman I generally don't bother healing anyone with 21k health, because they'll die fast anyway. So when you get some gear, you'll also get some heals. Same goes for the other side, I mean there's addons that /yell everytime they see someone with below 25k hp in a BG. Your survivabilty doesn't just go up by how much your equipment provides but also by a psychological amount. I can't even count the number of times a rogue stopped beating on me and went looking for a squishier target after I didn't drop in 10 seconds.
And if it takes even a little longer for you to die, you have more time to kill the other guy. Most BGs aren't one continuous zerg (or you're doing it wrong anyway), so you'll have some time in between to refill your health/mana.
Enhancement shaman have some solid defensive and offensive cooldowns and good utility to boot. Sure, we're still missing a real gap closer, but it's not nearly as bad as in BC. Do you have a PvP spec (and glyphs)? That makes a huge difference.
Dont forget lightning shield, which while leveling is prolly a much larger portion of your damage than normal.
I tried using that but I ended up blowing through a ton of mana without water shield up. Maybe it'll be better when mail gear starts having agi and int on it but right now it's tough. Also I might start using it once I can put some points into static shock. I've pretty much been leveling in groups or pvp healing/ele
Usually on pulls where I'm low on mana i'll just auto-attack and SS. The problem might be dropping magma into packs and fire novaing big groups. I'm not really sure. It's not a huge problem just noticeable sometimes that crap I'm running low
Usually on pulls where I'm low on mana i'll just auto-attack and SS. The problem might be dropping magma into packs and fire novaing big groups. I'm not really sure. It's not a huge problem just noticeable sometimes that crap I'm running low
What Kai said. Honestly, I rarely dropped totems leveling my shaman. If I did, I'd drop them in a central spot where I could individually pull 3 or more mobs before having to move. It was a lotta mana to let me kill a mob all of 1-2 seconds faster.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
Yeah, like, dont aoe as enhancement at low levels. Its an elemental thing you get some spillover with, but like most classes you cant do it at low levels cause you lack the gear balance to make it possible to sustain.
Enh is a single target killer. Run up to mob with lightning shield, SS, ES, LL, let it die unless you can SS again for mana. If you do get an add and feel raunchy, MAYBE drop a chain lightning with maelstrom as long as you dont need it to heal with.
If you DO run low it will be because you need to heal a lot due to whatever reason you are taking a ton of damage. Which, btw, you will be using maelstrom for heals and that should be it. Of course when you can weave in shamanistic rage you can usually afford to be a bit more aggresive, but trying to aoe anything will prolly just leave you manaless even RIGHT after a rage, and you will spend more time trying to get that mana back than you would have just single targetting.
If for some reason you want to aoe rape dudes, go ele. Once you get thunderstorm its basically free.
Right now I know that gear is a problem for me. I just got back into the game after having my account hacked back in the beginning of last year. Yes, I don't have a full PvP set. Yes, I'm at 21,000 hp. And yes, I'm playing with a good bit of lag (good ol' deployed internet connection.) So I'm caught in the catch 22 of needing honor to upgrade PvP gear, but getting that honor would involve me spending a lot of time staring at the graveyard waiting to be rezzed.
And even when I do, a lot of the problems will still be there, it'll just take a little longer for me to die.
So you're judging the spec based on all these factors that make your character a gimp in PvP?
Enhancement is fine in battlegrounds. Purge is an incredibly powerful tool for helping your team, especially if the opponents have druid/disc priest healers.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Right now I know that gear is a problem for me. I just got back into the game after having my account hacked back in the beginning of last year. Yes, I don't have a full PvP set. Yes, I'm at 21,000 hp. And yes, I'm playing with a good bit of lag (good ol' deployed internet connection.) So I'm caught in the catch 22 of needing honor to upgrade PvP gear, but getting that honor would involve me spending a lot of time staring at the graveyard waiting to be rezzed.
And even when I do, a lot of the problems will still be there, it'll just take a little longer for me to die.
So you're judging the spec based on all these factors that make your character a gimp in PvP?
Enhancement is fine in battlegrounds. Purge is an incredibly powerful tool for helping your team, especially if the opponents have druid/disc priest healers.
Dag, you are
A. Underestimating the value of resil
B. Playing the wrong spec if you die that much.
If you think you can run in and attempt to facemelt dudes, you will fail every time. You need to pick away at people and lock down stragglers who sneak out.
Also, the reason shamans get droppped so fast is people purposely target them. That should tell you something, and its not because you are an easy kill.
Shaman have a fair chunk of health less than other classes in similar gear.
I saw an elemental shaman in full Wrathful, and he was sitting around 26k health. Other classes can hit higher than that in relentless (with the possible exception of mages, who seem quite happy to go in some pve gear).
And those are the sets that are supposedly better itemised. The earlier gear, the gap is even more obvious due to resilience taking up more of the item budget. Wearing the level 78 pvp set, my elemental shaman was around 13.5k health, while rogues were sitting on around 18k.
At 21k, I'd say he's got a fair wack of pvp gear on!
I don't think you can compare how much trouble an elemental shaman can do to someone left alone, in comparison to an enhancement shaman.
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
I'm not even close to full wrathful and I'm at 29k unbuffed. But I do have some resilience/stamina gems.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
21k HP is a lot? I had 20k in PvE gear when I went on my hiatus
One method I've used for success in BGs as enhancement was to forget the leet DPS role I'd taken in raids and focus mainly on utility. I would keep a shield on me at all times--equip it while I was being focused, then switch back when the heat let up. I'd save MW stacks for healing, and make the most of imp GW to stay alive. Purge was spammed regularly, and totems were reapplied liberally--remember, even if they're fragile and die, it's still a distraction for the other guy if but for a moment. SR and the wolves are crucial, and you pretty much want to keep low until they cool.
Mainly, focus on staying alive, crippling your opponents and assisting your teammates. Being a pain in the ass for the other guys is a lot more effective than just trying to kill erryone.
Shaman have a fair chunk of health less than other classes in similar gear.
Some, yes, but really they're just on the low end of the health spectrum. They're down there with hunters and most casters/healers, but it's not like they're lower than everyone. Also, everyone will have very similar health in Cataclysm.
Ele/resto shamans get over 50% physical reduction, which doesn't hurt. Enhancement has it a little rougher around 40%, but like people said before, you can't just dive into the enemy zerg like a ret paladin with a pocket healer and hope to survive. It's going to take a little more finesse play, but enhancement does have a lot of different cooldowns to survive/heal if you know what you're doing.
Right now I know that gear is a problem for me. I just got back into the game after having my account hacked back in the beginning of last year. Yes, I don't have a full PvP set. Yes, I'm at 21,000 hp. And yes, I'm playing with a good bit of lag (good ol' deployed internet connection.) So I'm caught in the catch 22 of needing honor to upgrade PvP gear, but getting that honor would involve me spending a lot of time staring at the graveyard waiting to be rezzed.
And even when I do, a lot of the problems will still be there, it'll just take a little longer for me to die.
So you're judging the spec based on all these factors that make your character a gimp in PvP?
Enhancement is fine in battlegrounds. Purge is an incredibly powerful tool for helping your team, especially if the opponents have druid/disc priest healers.
Enhancement is a DPS tree, not a utility tree. Why is it that every other melee DPS class actually gets to do melee DPS in PvP? Why is it fine that shamans don't?
The game mechanics just don't support this notion that enhancement is fine in PvP. Even full PvP gear (BiS pvp items in every slot) isn't going to change the fact that enhancement shamans are easily kited by every ranged class, lose in melee against every other melee class, and reliant on cooldowns to even survive at all. So you're telling me it's fine that once every 3 minutes I have a chance to survive? I mean, hell, one of our best PvE tools is maelstrom weapon - and it's often useless in PvP because you can't actually get to an opponent to hit them?
It's pretty telling to me that no one has been able to offer up a meaningful response to my question: what other class/spec am I supposed to be able to beat as an enhancement shaman?
I.e., mages > warriors, or warlocks > mages, or rogues > warlocks. Complete the statement: enhancement shamans > x.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
Mages get to do melee DPS?
Edit - Oh woops read that wrong, ha ha.
Also the answer is shaman are a hybrid class, they're not to perform as good as any other pure class or dual-role class even, because shaman can perform 3 roles. All at once.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
That whole premise is flawed. Most classes don't have a hard counter, and I don't see how it's logical to claim that Shamans suck in PvP if they don't hard counter some other class.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
No class can counter every other class in PvP.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
That whole premise is flawed. Most classes don't have a hard counter, and I don't see how it's logical to claim that Shamans suck in PvP if they don't hard counter some other class.
So you reject the notion that an equally geared mage is usually going to beat a warrior, or that an equally geared rogue will usually beat a warlock?
Also the answer is shaman are a hybrid class, they're not to perform as good as any other pure class or dual-role class even, because shaman can perform 3 roles. All at once.
The bolded is sarcasm, right?
And what "3 roles" are you talking about? It's not dps/healing/tanking, so what are you referring to?
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
That whole premise is flawed. Most classes don't have a hard counter, and I don't see how it's logical to claim that Shamans suck in PvP if they don't hard counter some other class.
So you reject the notion that an equally geared mage is usually going to beat a warrior, or that an equally geared rogue will usually beat a warlock?
I reject the notion that every class needs to have another class that they beat more often than not, and put worth that it's a sign of bad design when one class can so thoroughly dominate another class. Shaman not having a class that they are guaranteed to dominate is not a sign of Shaman being terribad, it's a sign of some of those other classes working too well when matched up against their free HK class.
That whole premise is flawed. Most classes don't have a hard counter, and I don't see how it's logical to claim that Shamans suck in PvP if they don't hard counter some other class.
So you reject the notion that an equally geared mage is usually going to beat a warrior, or that an equally geared rogue will usually beat a warlock?
I reject the notion that every class needs to have another class that they beat more often than not, and put worth that it's a sign of bad design when one class can so thoroughly dominate another class. Shaman not having a class that they are guaranteed to dominate is not a sign of Shaman being terribad, it's a sign of some of those other classes working too well when matched up against their free HK class.
I reject that notion too, but reality is what it is.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
That whole premise is flawed. Most classes don't have a hard counter, and I don't see how it's logical to claim that Shamans suck in PvP if they don't hard counter some other class.
So you reject the notion that an equally geared mage is usually going to beat a warrior, or that an equally geared rogue will usually beat a warlock?
I reject the notion that every class needs to have another class that they beat more often than not, and put worth that it's a sign of bad design when one class can so thoroughly dominate another class. Shaman not having a class that they are guaranteed to dominate is not a sign of Shaman being terribad, it's a sign of some of those other classes working too well when matched up against their free HK class.
I reject that notion too, but reality is what it is.
And reality is that despite Shaman not having a free HK class, they do damn well in PvP. If you're the kind of player who can't get anything done when you're not fighting a class that your class hard counters, that says more about you than the class you play.
That whole premise is flawed. Most classes don't have a hard counter, and I don't see how it's logical to claim that Shamans suck in PvP if they don't hard counter some other class.
So you reject the notion that an equally geared mage is usually going to beat a warrior, or that an equally geared rogue will usually beat a warlock?
I reject the notion that every class needs to have another class that they beat more often than not, and put worth that it's a sign of bad design when one class can so thoroughly dominate another class. Shaman not having a class that they are guaranteed to dominate is not a sign of Shaman being terribad, it's a sign of some of those other classes working too well when matched up against their free HK class.
I reject that notion too, but reality is what it is.
And reality is that despite Shaman not having a free HK class, they do damn well in PvP.
Measured how? I certainly don't see many other enhancement shamans in PvP, and you said you completely disregard arena...I completely disagree with you for the reasons I have previously stated. Game mechanics aren't going to change completely just because you acquire a full PvP set.
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I wouldn't really bother with fire nova but you're doing okay. It is technically a priority system, but you won't be able to do the whole list until closer to 80.
Nature school so pretty much just windfury procs at mid level I guess? I guess I could switch to earth shocking once the stormstrike debuf is up but flame shock doesn't need a refresh
Lightning bolt, earth shock and chain lightning.
More about shaman, according to GC they're still constantly tweaking the mana regen in the game and every time they do it kinda dicks with paladins and shaman.
Also, there's a chance the first two tiers of talents will continue to see tweaks. I'm not as upset with enhancement's first 2 tiers as the poster who prompted this response from GC though. I'm actually fine with it. The poster's concern was that the elemental weapons talent scales with level rather than with gear.
Also, we might get shield changes that will be friendly toward elemental spec. Which is kind of a long time coming.
Last thing that caught my eye is that they're trying to fix Searing Totem so that it doesn't pull mobs when you're out of combat.
Yeah, I saw that post when looking in MMO's blue tracker. My idea is to have lightning bolt crits set off what amounts to a lighting shield charge ala Imp. Water Shield. Flame Shield would rock, but I don't think that's the direction they want to go.
Steam: pazython
I don't generally count gimmick 2vs2 and 3vs3 comps as the whole spec being viable.
I don't generally count Arena as a part of the game that is worthy of any consideration.
Then it baffles me how you could possibly think enhanceement shamans are badass in Wrath PvP. Please, elaborate, because as far as I can tell, for anything more involving than ganking lower levels, enhancement shamans remain too easily controlled in battle.
What classes am I supposed to be able to beat easily as an enhancement shaman?
Right now I know that gear is a problem for me. I just got back into the game after having my account hacked back in the beginning of last year. Yes, I don't have a full PvP set. Yes, I'm at 21,000 hp. And yes, I'm playing with a good bit of lag (good ol' deployed internet connection.) So I'm caught in the catch 22 of needing honor to upgrade PvP gear, but getting that honor would involve me spending a lot of time staring at the graveyard waiting to be rezzed.
And even when I do, a lot of the problems will still be there, it'll just take a little longer for me to die.
I don't know if it's down to the generally low health pool most shaman have, or the proc system, but good luck to any enhancement shaman out there not going in with a mate to support them.
If I'm on my shaman I generally don't bother healing anyone with 21k health, because they'll die fast anyway. So when you get some gear, you'll also get some heals. Same goes for the other side, I mean there's addons that /yell everytime they see someone with below 25k hp in a BG. Your survivabilty doesn't just go up by how much your equipment provides but also by a psychological amount. I can't even count the number of times a rogue stopped beating on me and went looking for a squishier target after I didn't drop in 10 seconds.
And if it takes even a little longer for you to die, you have more time to kill the other guy. Most BGs aren't one continuous zerg (or you're doing it wrong anyway), so you'll have some time in between to refill your health/mana.
Enhancement shaman have some solid defensive and offensive cooldowns and good utility to boot. Sure, we're still missing a real gap closer, but it's not nearly as bad as in BC. Do you have a PvP spec (and glyphs)? That makes a huge difference.
I tried using that but I ended up blowing through a ton of mana without water shield up. Maybe it'll be better when mail gear starts having agi and int on it but right now it's tough. Also I might start using it once I can put some points into static shock. I've pretty much been leveling in groups or pvp healing/ele
What Kai said. Honestly, I rarely dropped totems leveling my shaman. If I did, I'd drop them in a central spot where I could individually pull 3 or more mobs before having to move. It was a lotta mana to let me kill a mob all of 1-2 seconds faster.
Enh is a single target killer. Run up to mob with lightning shield, SS, ES, LL, let it die unless you can SS again for mana. If you do get an add and feel raunchy, MAYBE drop a chain lightning with maelstrom as long as you dont need it to heal with.
If you DO run low it will be because you need to heal a lot due to whatever reason you are taking a ton of damage. Which, btw, you will be using maelstrom for heals and that should be it. Of course when you can weave in shamanistic rage you can usually afford to be a bit more aggresive, but trying to aoe anything will prolly just leave you manaless even RIGHT after a rage, and you will spend more time trying to get that mana back than you would have just single targetting.
If for some reason you want to aoe rape dudes, go ele. Once you get thunderstorm its basically free.
Enhancement is fine in battlegrounds. Purge is an incredibly powerful tool for helping your team, especially if the opponents have druid/disc priest healers.
Dag, you are
A. Underestimating the value of resil
B. Playing the wrong spec if you die that much.
If you think you can run in and attempt to facemelt dudes, you will fail every time. You need to pick away at people and lock down stragglers who sneak out.
Also, the reason shamans get droppped so fast is people purposely target them. That should tell you something, and its not because you are an easy kill.
I saw an elemental shaman in full Wrathful, and he was sitting around 26k health. Other classes can hit higher than that in relentless (with the possible exception of mages, who seem quite happy to go in some pve gear).
And those are the sets that are supposedly better itemised. The earlier gear, the gap is even more obvious due to resilience taking up more of the item budget. Wearing the level 78 pvp set, my elemental shaman was around 13.5k health, while rogues were sitting on around 18k.
At 21k, I'd say he's got a fair wack of pvp gear on!
I don't think you can compare how much trouble an elemental shaman can do to someone left alone, in comparison to an enhancement shaman.
Edit: wait, are you level capped?
Mainly, focus on staying alive, crippling your opponents and assisting your teammates. Being a pain in the ass for the other guys is a lot more effective than just trying to kill erryone.
Ele/resto shamans get over 50% physical reduction, which doesn't hurt. Enhancement has it a little rougher around 40%, but like people said before, you can't just dive into the enemy zerg like a ret paladin with a pocket healer and hope to survive. It's going to take a little more finesse play, but enhancement does have a lot of different cooldowns to survive/heal if you know what you're doing.
Enhancement is a DPS tree, not a utility tree. Why is it that every other melee DPS class actually gets to do melee DPS in PvP? Why is it fine that shamans don't?
The game mechanics just don't support this notion that enhancement is fine in PvP. Even full PvP gear (BiS pvp items in every slot) isn't going to change the fact that enhancement shamans are easily kited by every ranged class, lose in melee against every other melee class, and reliant on cooldowns to even survive at all. So you're telling me it's fine that once every 3 minutes I have a chance to survive? I mean, hell, one of our best PvE tools is maelstrom weapon - and it's often useless in PvP because you can't actually get to an opponent to hit them?
It's pretty telling to me that no one has been able to offer up a meaningful response to my question: what other class/spec am I supposed to be able to beat as an enhancement shaman?
I.e., mages > warriors, or warlocks > mages, or rogues > warlocks. Complete the statement: enhancement shamans > x.
Edit - Oh woops read that wrong, ha ha.
Also the answer is shaman are a hybrid class, they're not to perform as good as any other pure class or dual-role class even, because shaman can perform 3 roles. All at once.
So you reject the notion that an equally geared mage is usually going to beat a warrior, or that an equally geared rogue will usually beat a warlock?
The bolded is sarcasm, right?
And what "3 roles" are you talking about? It's not dps/healing/tanking, so what are you referring to?
I reject the notion that every class needs to have another class that they beat more often than not, and put worth that it's a sign of bad design when one class can so thoroughly dominate another class. Shaman not having a class that they are guaranteed to dominate is not a sign of Shaman being terribad, it's a sign of some of those other classes working too well when matched up against their free HK class.
I reject that notion too, but reality is what it is.
And reality is that despite Shaman not having a free HK class, they do damn well in PvP. If you're the kind of player who can't get anything done when you're not fighting a class that your class hard counters, that says more about you than the class you play.
Measured how? I certainly don't see many other enhancement shamans in PvP, and you said you completely disregard arena...I completely disagree with you for the reasons I have previously stated. Game mechanics aren't going to change completely just because you acquire a full PvP set.