Where do you draw the line?

pacbowl

A mutual friend introduced my roommate to a woman last Thursday. She stayed at our house all day that day, went home that night and came back Friday with a bag of clothes and toiletries. She hasn't left yet and it's been nearly a week. My roommate and this woman aren't dating, they aren't sleeping together, they just hang out all day. My roommate doesn't have a job (his relatives give him rent money and such) so his situation is just ripe for someone else who doesn't have a job to spend all day, seemingly every day, at the house.

I spoke to him about it Monday night and he said she was leaving Tues morning and wouldn't be back until the weekend. Well surprise, I get home from work on Tues and guess who's there. When I tell him she has outstayed her welcome he keeps responding with allegations that I'm trying to cockblock him, which I'm not. I don't care who he has over, it's the frequency that concerns me. I don't want her moving in and when confronted about it my roommate keeps saying shes not, to which I keep replying "Well she's still here." I've asked him how long she is going to be here and he can't give me a definitive answer.

How long until you guys would consider her "living there"? I've had friends crash at our place for a few days before but this is getting a bit out of hand. She hasn't done anything to affect me directly, but I consider the house part of my personal space and I want to live with my current roommate, not him and her.

Or am I the one being a dick?

tl;dr, A girl had been crashing in my roommates bedroom for nearly a week. I don't want her moving in and when confronted about it my roommate keeps blowing it off.

Ruckus

What does your Lease say about occupancy and guests? Some specifically limit the people who aren't on the lease (eg "guests") to only staying for a certain amount of time. That could give you the nice, legal ammunition need to finally get your RM to give her the boot.

Bulwark

pacbowl wrote: »

I spoke to him about it Monday night and he said she was leaving Tues morning and wouldn't be back until the weekend. Well surprise, I get home from work on Tues and guess who's there. When I tell him she has outstayed her welcome he keeps responding with allegations that I'm trying to cockblock him, which I'm not. I don't care who he has over, it's the frequency that concerns me. I don't want her moving in and when confronted about it my roommate keeps saying shes not, to which I keep replying "Well she's still here." I've asked him how long she is going to be here and he can't give me a definitive answer.

He is blowing you off because she is moving in de facto and he is not very interested in a conversation where he would have to justify this. Press the issue. Did you have any previous explicit agreements about guests, or have you always just trusted each other?

pacbowl

No explicit agreements. We're both 36 and have lived here for about 4 years, so we've just trusted each other. It's normal for us to have company stay during the weekend and maybe the occasional couch surfer, but something about this situation is getting under my skin. I pay all the bills and have final say on what goes on in the house, but I would feel like a massive dick telling my roommate that he can't have his friend over.

VisionOfClarity

Ruckus wrote: »

What does your Lease say about occupancy and guests? Some specifically limit the people who aren't on the lease (eg "guests") to only staying for a certain amount of time. That could give you the nice, legal ammunition need to finally get your RM to give her the boot.

This. But I'd more likely than not tell him that she has to be gone by tomorrow or I'd be looking into other ways to have her removed. Frankly, I only deal with so much bullshit from someone before I'm done being nice. You've made yourself clear and if he can't respect that then it's time to stop asking nicely and get her the hell out. He's being an asshole at this point.


Edit: 36? Yea, he's more than old enough to know that he's being a dip shit.

bowen

Have you tried approaching her yet? You may get further. Explain to her that he hasn't okayed it with you to move in and there are restrictions on your lease for guests who are basically living in the apartment.

Djeet

What Ruckus said. Back when I rented, typically any guest who stayed 2 weeks or more was considered an occupant. Undeclared occupants were a lease violation and could be grounds for eviction (though more likely they'd just need to be on the lease and/or the rent would be upped).

Maybe he can make a case for cockblocking, but you definitely didn't sign up to live with this woman. It's not like the possibility of getting some action somehow absolves him from extending common courtesy to his roommate.

Narian

Where is she sleeping now?

Esh

I had a roommate who did this as well. His girlfriend was here every night and day for a month. I finally just told him that they needed to start spending some nights at her house.

Put your foot down. He's not paying rent so he has zero say. Beyond that, most rental agreements will have one of the previously mentioned "guest clauses".

pacbowl

She's sleeping in his room, but they aren't dating or sexing it up. When I asked about this he responded "I don't know what's going on, I'm still feeling her out". I'm like, "Dude she's been here for 4 days, figure it out. Soon. And when you do, she's still not moving in." They are pretty much attached at the hip, though when he has to go do things she leaves. But when he's back, pop there she is again.

He pays rent, he just doesn't have a regular 9to5 job. He's got a two day a week side job doing data entry for a custom wallpaper company.

We've had people stay well beyond the guest clauses in most leases, which is why I'm hesitant to use it in this case. However in those cases there was no potential relationship involved and it was much easier to tell them to gtfo.

mojojoeo

Have you asked him to maybe hang at her place at least some?

also he's 36, how old is she? does she even have a place?

WildEEP

You can draw a hard line in the sand that no person shall stay longer the X days in any given situation, but that means you'll be held to that rule yourself.

Is she doing things that are annoying in some fashion? So far I hear that shes there...but what else? You admitted that some folks have occasionally stayed over in either similiar or longer periods, and that was cool, and yet this time..not so much. So whats the real deal? Why do you dislike this chick?

Karrmer

If she establishes residency, which it sounds like she already has, you will be screwed so handle this soon.

Basically, at least in California, all a person needs to do is bring in some clothes/toiletries and claim they've been staying with you a few weeks. At that point the police can't make her leave, you can't make her leave, you can't lock her out. You have to get a court eviction, which takes a while.

So take care of it. Keep her stuff out of the house.

Doc

Esh wrote: »

Put your foot down. He's not paying rent so he has zero say.

The OP said the guy pays rent. He gets the money from relatives, but that's irrelevant.

pacbowl

All of our mutual friends are around 32 to 36, so I'm guessing she's 33ish but I don't really know. We've known her less than a week and I don't hang around with her but from what I gathered from my roommate is she has a kid and her own place, but has a male roommate who adopted her kid, but they aren't romantic? Which is why they don't hang out there and she feels "safe" at our place. She apparently has some kind of job, but hasn't been there since she's been at my place. The whole thing is confusing and screams drama. If my roommate wants to be a part of that then he can have at it, but I don't want it in my house 7 days a week.

Deebaser

So to summarize: she has a kid that was adopted by her non-romantic male roommate that she's totally cool with not seeing for days at a time. What the shit?

bowen

Karrmer wrote: »

If she establishes residency, which it sounds like she already has, you will be screwed so handle this soon.

Basically, at least in California, all a person needs to do is bring in some clothes/toiletries and claim they've been staying with you a few weeks. At that point the police can't make her leave, you can't make her leave, you can't lock her out. You have to get a court eviction, which takes a while.

So take care of it. Keep her stuff out of the house.

This is a situation where a person actually lives at the residence is protected, not where some drifter comes along and throws some tp, tampax, and some clothes into an apartment. If she's not on the lease she isn't one of those protected residents you hear about.

This is really to protect people from living with a friend who gave them a room to stay in for a few months and then the person kicks them out after 3 weeks. Not some girl who wants to bum a room from a friend for a few days out of a month. I doubt the court would side with her.

Dark_Side

WildEEP wrote: »

You can draw a hard line in the sand that no person shall stay longer the X days in any given situation, but that means you'll be held to that rule yourself.

Is she doing things that are annoying in some fashion? So far I hear that shes there...but what else? You admitted that some folks have occasionally stayed over in either similiar or longer periods, and that was cool, and yet this time..not so much. So whats the real deal? Why do you dislike this chick?

I would suspect op's trying to head off a live in girlfriend situation, and rightly so. Honestly if they've been spending all that time together in the house and nothing has happened your roomy is either lying, or this girl is taking advantage of him. I would put your foot down, and wouldn't feel bad about it either. Don't buy into the cockblocking excuse, make it clear that you will not accept a guest in the house during the week, he can have her over on the weekends.

pacbowl

WildEEP wrote: »

You can draw a hard line in the sand that no person shall stay longer the X days in any given situation, but that means you'll be held to that rule yourself.

Is she doing things that are annoying in some fashion? So far I hear that shes there...but what else? You admitted that some folks have occasionally stayed over in either similiar or longer periods, and that was cool, and yet this time..not so much. So whats the real deal? Why do you dislike this chick?

We've known her less than a week. She spent one day hanging out then pretty much moved in. That just rubs me the wrong way. In the other circumstances it had been people that we had known from high school, or for at least several years. They would also sleep on the couch or somewhere else in the living room, there was a middle ground. This time it's as if she thinks she's going to string my roommate along so she can take up residency here, which I will not let happen.

WildEEP

Dark_Side wrote: »

WildEEP wrote: »

You can draw a hard line in the sand that no person shall stay longer the X days in any given situation, but that means you'll be held to that rule yourself.

Is she doing things that are annoying in some fashion? So far I hear that shes there...but what else? You admitted that some folks have occasionally stayed over in either similiar or longer periods, and that was cool, and yet this time..not so much. So whats the real deal? Why do you dislike this chick?

I would suspect op's trying to head off a live in girlfriend situation, and rightly so. Honestly if they've been spending all that time together in the house and nothing has happened your roomy is either lying, or this girl is taking advantage of him. I would put your foot down, and wouldn't feel bad about it either. Don't buy into the cockblocking excuse, make it clear that you will not accept a guest in the house during the week, he can have her over on the weekends.

Well thats concievable, but then it needs to be an expanded scope - which is something more like - Either she goes or she lives here. If she lives here, she pays. If he pulls the cockblock card on you then trump it with a cockblock confirmation - "If she is here because you wanna sleep with her, thats great for you but I get nothing out of that deal - either she pays up, or she can start "not" sleeping with me too.....Brah"

tardcore

Just keep putting your foot down. Start off giving slight hints that you're going to the RM and if it's necessary to keep having the same conversation, flat out tell him that you're going to report the situation to the RM. State your opinion and that you really aren't trying to cock-block, but she is definitely over staying her welcome.

Ruckus

pacbowl wrote: »

WildEEP wrote: »

You can draw a hard line in the sand that no person shall stay longer the X days in any given situation, but that means you'll be held to that rule yourself.

Is she doing things that are annoying in some fashion? So far I hear that shes there...but what else? You admitted that some folks have occasionally stayed over in either similiar or longer periods, and that was cool, and yet this time..not so much. So whats the real deal? Why do you dislike this chick?

We've known her less than a week. She spent one day hanging out then pretty much moved in. That just rubs me the wrong way. In the other circumstances it had been people that we had known from high school, or for at least several years. They would also sleep on the couch or somewhere else in the living room, there was a middle ground. This time it's as if she thinks she's going to string my roommate along so she can take up residency here, which I will not let happen.

Every time you add a detail, my Brain goes "What. The. Fuck.".

I agree with EEP, I'd say officially cockblock him. Just straight up tell him that if he ain't already gettin' it, he won't be gettin' it, and she should get gone.

Dark_Side

Well, from what the OP's laid out, it sounds like this girl is nothing but trouble anyway and I would not want her in my house either. The bottom line is that a guest has to be ok'd by both roommates, and OP isn't comfortable with her being there. It sounds like the "non-romantic adopter of her kid" is probably the father of her kid. And it sounds like she spotted another sucker and buttered him up to let her start crashing at this new apartment. The whole thing stinks op and I think you are totally right in saying she can't live here, but it is going to turn you into the bad guy, so be prepared for that. And he's probably just going to have her over when you're at work and then hide her in his room when you're not.

SammyF

If you're concerned about how to maintain a friendship or whatever with your roommate, all you have to do is take all the advice given about telling him that the situation is unacceptable but add a statement about why you feel that way. For example, "You may be spending all your time with this person, Shitty R. Roommate, but she's literally a stranger to me. I met her less than 24 hours before she started moving personal belongings into our house/apartment, and I feel totally uncomfortable with a total stranger moving into our home."

If that leads into a "you just need to get to know her" rebuttal, reply that you will be happy to get to know her over the next several months, and then perhaps you can reopen the conversation and have a discussion about whether she can move in and assume some of the rent burden or whether it would be more appropriate for him to sublet out for the remaining duration of his lease and move in with this woman somewhere else, but until that time she's not welcome to be a squatter in your home.

L Ron Howard

tardcore wrote: »

Just keep putting your foot down. Start off giving slight hints that you're going to the RM and if it's necessary to keep having the same conversation, flat out tell him that you're going to report the situation to the RM. State your opinion and that you really aren't trying to cock-block, but she is definitely over staying her welcome.

No need to be passive-aggressive about it.


OP:
Can you move out? Break the lease? Whatever? Maybe the only thing you'll be able to do to avoid all this shit is to gtfo of Dodge. Since you guys each have half of the power when it comes to the place, I don't know how you're able to exert any more than he is to get her to leave, so I don't know if you'll actually be able to do anything. Well, other than hitting up the RM. He will probably just sit there and keep blowing you off, and you'll never get a straight answer from him.

Some people I know have a rule where if their SO is there for more than a week at a time, the SO pays rent.

Oo. Just thought of something. Tell him either she starts paying rent, since she's living there, or you'll talk to the RM and have her evicted. Worst thing happens you bail and let them deal with it..?

Karrmer

bowen wrote: »

Karrmer wrote: »

If she establishes residency, which it sounds like she already has, you will be screwed so handle this soon.

Basically, at least in California, all a person needs to do is bring in some clothes/toiletries and claim they've been staying with you a few weeks. At that point the police can't make her leave, you can't make her leave, you can't lock her out. You have to get a court eviction, which takes a while.

So take care of it. Keep her stuff out of the house.

This is a situation where a person actually lives at the residence is protected, not where some drifter comes along and throws some tp, tampax, and some clothes into an apartment. If she's not on the lease she isn't one of those protected residents you hear about.

This is really to protect people from living with a friend who gave them a room to stay in for a few months and then the person kicks them out after 3 weeks. Not some girl who wants to bum a room from a friend for a few days out of a month. I doubt the court would side with her.

The court won't side with her but law enforcement (which I work in) can't enforce these civil situations so he will be forced into an eviction if she wanted to be a dick and refuse to leave. All she has to do is explain that his roomate let her live there.

I doubt it will happen as she has her own place but I deal with this a lot and it seems the renters/owners never understand these things and are blown away that they can't just make the police remove anyone they want (including their own children) whenever they want because "they aren't on the lease" etx

Smurph

I would go to her about it next. You need to straight up ask her how often/long she plans on staying at your place and why she thinks that's ok. She may not know any better, but she's probably planning on mooching off your room mate for as long as she feels comfortable. You don't have to be a dick about it, but it wouldn't hurt to let her know that you're not a fan of the current situation and that you have final say. Don't let your room mate be her shield from the awkwardness.

MegaMan001

OP can I ask for some more information? You mentioned you've lived with your roommate for four years? Has he done things like this before?

It seems kind of strange that if he was okay enough to live with for so long why would he all of a sudden get into this situation?

pacbowl

MegaMan001 wrote: »

OP can I ask for some more information? You mentioned you've lived with your roommate for four years? Has he done things like this before?

It seems kind of strange that if he was okay enough to live with for so long why would he all of a sudden get into this situation?

He himself hasn't done anything like this, at least on purpose. We had a situation about a year ago where we ran into a girl we had known for about 15 years but lost contact with. She became obsessed with my roommate and it got very creepy; to the point that she said "I'll make you like me". o_O She had nowhere else to go so we let her stay at our place for a few weeks, but she really hounded my roommate. Mooched off him like no tomorrow, kept him up until all hours of the morning and generally just would not stop talking. My roommate finally told her she couldn't stay there anymore and she made herself sparse for a few weeks, then started coming over again. Every day. I finally printed out a calendar and started marking the days she was there. After about a month, and 29 circled days I confronted her about it and she stopped coming over so frequently. What made that situation difficult is because she would cook and clean for us. It's hard to kick someone out who's just cleaned your kitchen.

But this situation is different in that he seems to be attracted to this girl, unlike the one in the story above. I know I'm going to end up being the bad guy. He knows that I don't like her spending so much time at the house, I'm wondering how long I should give him to wise up and tell her not to come over so much before I reach the boiling point and blow up on them both. I'm going to try reasoning with him again. The last time there was a lot of "what's she done to you? She stays in my room and doesn't bother you" thrown around. She really hasn't done anything to me and I'm finding it hard to justify my position without saying "because I said so".

L Ron Howard

"She lives here and isn't paying rent."

pacbowl

L Ron Howard wrote: »

"She lives here and isn't paying rent."

I said that and he responded with "She isn't living here". At which point I showed him her toothbrush.

I know it's only been a week, but what would a reasonable amount of time be before I can beat him over the head with the fact that she is staying there. I'm not interested in what the letter of the law says, I want to get the opinions of the PA hive mind. A week? two? Have I already let it go on long enough?

NailbunnyPD

L Ron Howard wrote: »

"She lives here and isn't paying rent."

There's also the fact that you don't know her at all (presumably.) How do you know you can trust her in your place? He hasn't done anything to ease this process, either. He didn't discuss this arrangement with you in advance. How much respect does he have for you to leave this stranger living in your home while he is not even there?

Esh

pacbowl wrote: »

L Ron Howard wrote: »

"She lives here and isn't paying rent."

I said that and he responded with "She isn't living here". At which point I showed him her toothbrush.

I know it's only been a week, but what would a reasonable amount of time be before I can beat him over the head with the fact that she is staying there. I'm not interested in what the letter of the law says, I want to get the opinions of the PA hive mind. A week? two? Have I already let it go on long enough?

A week for someone neither of you know well at all is long enough. I mean, did a 36 year old really use the term "cock block"? Is he not someone who has much success with the ladies generally?

jkylefulton

pacbowl wrote: »

I pay all the bills and have final say on what goes on in the house, but I would feel like a massive dick telling my roommate that he can't have his friend over.

You pay all the bills, and you're uncomfortable with the situation. YOU PAY ALL THE BILLS, and you aren't comfortable living in your own home. Tell her to get the fuck out, and if he doesn't like it, kick his ass to the curb as well. You're being used.

SammyF

pacbowl wrote: »

But this situation is different in that he seems to be attracted to this girl, unlike the one in the story above. I know I'm going to end up being the bad guy. He knows that I don't like her spending so much time at the house, I'm wondering how long I should give him to wise up and tell her not to come over so much before I reach the boiling point and blow up on them both. I'm going to try reasoning with him again. The last time there was a lot of "what's she done to you? She stays in my room and doesn't bother you" thrown around. She really hasn't done anything to me and I'm finding it hard to justify my position without saying "because I said so".

Don't let him make you feel like the bad guy. If he does try and make you feel like the bad guy, get indignant. You are not required to be able to justify how you feel about something; the salient fact is that this is how you feel about a stranger moving into your home and being there when you're not. If he's not going to be considerate of how you feel about things, than he's a silly goose and a lousy fucking roommate, and you absolutely should let him know that.

It's probably not the rational, mature discussion that you wish you could be having about this, but it is a valid negotiating tool: make the other party feel guilty for not being willing or able to see things from your perspective or meet you half way so that he's forced either to admit that he's a tool or start trying to be more accommodating to your position/feelings/beliefs.

pacbowl

Esh wrote: »

pacbowl wrote: »

L Ron Howard wrote: »

"She lives here and isn't paying rent."

I said that and he responded with "She isn't living here". At which point I showed him her toothbrush.

I know it's only been a week, but what would a reasonable amount of time be before I can beat him over the head with the fact that she is staying there. I'm not interested in what the letter of the law says, I want to get the opinions of the PA hive mind. A week? two? Have I already let it go on long enough?

A week for someone neither of you know well at all is long enough. I mean, did a 36 year old really use the term "cock block"? Is he not someone who has much success with the ladies generally?

That's what gets me. I knew the guy in high school and lost touch with him until about 6 years ago. When I ran into him again he was dating/living with this HOT 21 y/o redhead. He ended up leaving her because she was too immature and he felt more like her father than her lover. He's always chatting up the ladies and has late night skyping sessions with more than a few women.

This one isn't even that attractive. I don't get what hold she has over him.

SammyF

pacbowl wrote: »

Esh wrote: »

pacbowl wrote: »

L Ron Howard wrote: »

"She lives here and isn't paying rent."

I said that and he responded with "She isn't living here". At which point I showed him her toothbrush.

I know it's only been a week, but what would a reasonable amount of time be before I can beat him over the head with the fact that she is staying there. I'm not interested in what the letter of the law says, I want to get the opinions of the PA hive mind. A week? two? Have I already let it go on long enough?

A week for someone neither of you know well at all is long enough. I mean, did a 36 year old really use the term "cock block"? Is he not someone who has much success with the ladies generally?

That's what gets me. I knew the guy in high school and lost touch with him until about 6 years ago. When I ran into him again he was dating/living with this HOT 21 y/o redhead. He ended up leaving her because she was too immature and he felt more like her father than her lover. He's always chatting up the ladies and has late night skyping sessions with more than a few women.

This one isn't even that attractive. I don't get what hold she has over him.

...Honestly, I'm thinking the problem here is that you're asking us for advice on how to get the wrong person to move back out of your house.

Deebaser

If this were a reality show, I would so watch this.

NotYou

Explain that currently, a stranger that you didn't know until last week, is now living in your apartment, and that you haven't been given any idea of when or if she will ever leave. This doesn't work for you and makes you uncomfortable in your own home.

You might need to just find a new place to live.

Spacemilk

Deebaser wrote: »

So to summarize: she has a kid that was adopted by her non-romantic male roommate that she's totally cool with not seeing for days at a time. What the shit?

I want to highlight this, and also add: She "feels more comfortable" at your place - she must, because she's there so often - yet whatever makes her less comfortable about her place, she's totally cool with leaving her kid there. Hrmmm ok.

This whole situation is just batshit insane.

Honestly I think the biggest objection is the one a few people have brought up: She could "establish residency" and then you have to evict her if you want her out. So just be honest with your roommate and tell him this. Tell him you do not want to have to worry about the potential for that whole process and you need to get to know her. (and HE needs to get to know her too jesus christ) You guys know absolutely nothing about this girl. It's unbelievable to me that this situation has gone on for so long.

NailbunnyPD

Have you considered asking her to leave while your roommate is gone? Or at least talking to her about the situation, maybe asking questions like how long she plans on staying, and why she is staying there while he is out of town?