Hmmm, I would go to court, be sure not to lie, but stress that as a woman, having a random man who claims to be a cop (but without lights or vehicle to back that up) rap on your car and demand you pull over is possibly putting her in a dangerous situation. The judge may agree with you and invalidate the tickets not dealing with the obvious traffic infractions.
So a cop needs a light or vehicle to tell you to pull over and prove that he/she's a cop? No, sorry. Doesn't work that way. As well, she was in a crowded intersection, she wasn't in the middle of nowhere.
People have been accosted by perpetrators posing as police officers. Women have been raped by perpetrators posing as police officers. It is not an unfounded or entirely unreasonable stance to claim that without the obvious signs of authority (i.e. vehicle, lights) that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the man in fact is a cop, then the possibility exists.
Thanks for the newsflash, but speeding off and swearing at the person is not the acceptable course of action. She obviously was in the wrong and trying to twist the situation is not the proper thing to do.
Like I already said, they were in a crowded intersection and she had little to nothing to worry about.
I don't see why anyone is even trying to offer advice on how to get out of this. She's guilty and should just take her lumps and learn a lesson.
Ill always give advice on how to get out of things like this. Fight the tickets to death. No matter what. Its your right, and you should exercise it. All they want is money from you, make them fight for the money.
Maybe you broke the law, maybe you didnt, its up to the courts to prove that you did. Its not being a coward, its the system.
Or plead guilty and pay up. This is what uneducated people do.
Awk on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Ill always give advice on how to get out of things like this. Fight the tickets to death. No matter what. Its your right, and you should exercise it. All they want is money from you, make them fight for the money.
Maybe you broke the law, maybe you didnt, its up to the courts to prove that you did. Its not being a coward, its the system.
Or plead guilty and pay up. This is what uneducated people do.
Yes, let's waste taxpayer money fighting things that we're guilty of. Great idea.
Also, calling anyone who doesn't fight their tickets uneducated. Really?
Hmmm, I would go to court, be sure not to lie, but stress that as a woman, having a random man who claims to be a cop (but without lights or vehicle to back that up) rap on your car and demand you pull over is possibly putting her in a dangerous situation. The judge may agree with you and invalidate the tickets not dealing with the obvious traffic infractions.
So a cop needs a light or vehicle to tell you to pull over and prove that he/she's a cop? No, sorry. Doesn't work that way. As well, she was in a crowded intersection, she wasn't in the middle of nowhere.
People have been accosted by perpetrators posing as police officers. Women have been raped by perpetrators posing as police officers. It is not an unfounded or entirely unreasonable stance to claim that without the obvious signs of authority (i.e. vehicle, lights) that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the man in fact is a cop, then the possibility exists.
Is the crux of your argument really that it was possible that the police officer directing traffic in a busy intersection during rush hour in broad daylight was actually potentially a rapist?
I'm sorry, but this is a fairly flimsy attempt to insert gender as a viable reason for speeding away from a uniformed officer while yelling an obscenity. Made especially ugly because the OP never even hinted that his g/f once thought that she was in danger from a fake police officer.
The g/f never believed she was in danger, and telling her she may be able to get away with it if she pleads her actions down as some sort of feminine fear is a particularly ugly brand of sexism - one that paints any woman anywhere as a scared and helpless bystander in their own life.
So please, just stop. The g/f never believed that she was in danger from the officer. Don't make this about something it isn't.
Chases Street Demons on
"Sometimes things aren't complicated," I said. "You just have to be willing to accept the absolute corruption of everybody involved."
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
I don't think people are saying, "Submit, citizen!" so much as pointing out that her best chance of getting a reduced fine/judgment is showing up and being apologetic. Trying to weasel out of it has a low chance of success.
I don't know how things work in Canada, but here in the States, unless it's a jail sentence you're looking at, you don't typically have a prosecutor at your day in court. Just you and the judge. And the judge has the discretion to make things easy on you or to make things difficult for you. If you go in and plead, "Not Guilty", it's not going to be a trial where you get a jury. The cop will come in and say, "I saw her do it." At that point the judge will sentence you unless you have evidence that you did not, in fact, do it.
I've gotten out of many tickets by showing up in a nice suit, apologizing and promising the judge it wouldn't happen again. I have also pled not guilty to some infractions. It has never worked out better for me in those situations, but then I've never been guilty of anything worse than minor traffic violations, which it seems these tickets are.
Ill always give advice on how to get out of things like this. Fight the tickets to death. No matter what. Its your right, and you should exercise it. All they want is money from you, make them fight for the money.
Maybe you broke the law, maybe you didnt, its up to the courts to prove that you did. Its not being a coward, its the system.
Or plead guilty and pay up. This is what uneducated people do.
This is exactly what the Ethicist says. The court and legal system exists for a reason. While you may be guilty, it is the job of the prosecution to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt: and it is the job of the law enforcement agent to collect enough proof and evidence to help the prosecution.
Honestly, I think she should just pay it and take it as a lesson learned. But, if you want to fight it, I don't think you're doing anything morally wrong.
Josh:
My little brother spent years being a speed demon, running red lights, crashing cars, etc. Got caught over and over. Never got in serious trouble, always plead not guilty. Over 100 on the 60 mile highway? 50 bucks. etc.
OP:
What were the tickets for in the end? I think we're all curious.
streever on
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
josh: you're color blind, that should be like an instant "get out of running red lights" free card
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
It may be outside the purview of this conversation, but any constitutional rights activist would argue that it's NOT ethically wrong. The constitution grants us the right to be innocent until proven guilty. The court system literally exists to try cases. If it was so simple as "you know you were wrong" then we wouldn't need our legal system.
People who fight tickets--even ones they know personally they are guilty of--are exercising, according to American laws and standards, a basic right of all citizens.
streever on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
It may be outside the purview of this conversation, but any constitutional rights activist would argue that it's NOT ethically wrong. The constitution grants us the right to be innocent until proven guilty. The court system literally exists to try cases. If it was so simple as "you know you were wrong" then we wouldn't need our legal system.
People who fight tickets--even ones they know personally they are guilty of--are exercising, according to American laws and standards, a basic right of all citizens.
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
It may be outside the purview of this conversation, but any constitutional rights activist would argue that it's NOT ethically wrong. The constitution grants us the right to be innocent until proven guilty. The court system literally exists to try cases. If it was so simple as "you know you were wrong" then we wouldn't need our legal system.
People who fight tickets--even ones they know personally they are guilty of--are exercising, according to American laws and standards, a basic right of all citizens.
Yeah, it doesn't make it not frivolous though.
I think the arguments about her "thinking he was a crazy potential murderer" were definitely specious and stupid, but I don't know if it would be frivolous: bear in mind we don't even know what the tickets are for. If it was reckless endangerment, I think she could make a good case that she wasn't actually endangering anyone in a reckless fashion. After all, it was safe enough for an officer to walk into the middle of the street, and he ordered her to pull over--meaning it was safe enough for her to drive forward in order to pull over.
I mean, until we know the actual tickets being issued, we can't really say, so taking either extreme is just a bit early.
Edit:
My point is, she might be able to have a really logical, sound, not frivolous defense against some charges. Was she wrong to yell "f you" at the cop? Totally. Is that illegal? Probably not. Maybe she honestly believes that she was driving safely and the tickets are out of proportion to her offense. Let's wait and see before rushing to judgement.
streever on
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
It may be outside the purview of this conversation, but any constitutional rights activist would argue that it's NOT ethically wrong. The constitution grants us the right to be innocent until proven guilty. The court system literally exists to try cases. If it was so simple as "you know you were wrong" then we wouldn't need our legal system.
People who fight tickets--even ones they know personally they are guilty of--are exercising, according to American laws and standards, a basic right of all citizens.
ethics have nothing to do with constitutional law
exercising your rights != ethics
like it's fully within my rights to hold a kkk rally on public property
If your gf wants to minimize the chance of the officer showing up, she should file for an extension or two, ideally for a different day of the week than the original court date.
Awk has a great point, a lot of the time when you fight minor tickets like this they get thrown out for being a waste of taxpayer's time and money on the court system, or the officer doesn't show up to court because the cop is doing cop things and such
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
It may be outside the purview of this conversation, but any constitutional rights activist would argue that it's NOT ethically wrong. The constitution grants us the right to be innocent until proven guilty. The court system literally exists to try cases. If it was so simple as "you know you were wrong" then we wouldn't need our legal system.
People who fight tickets--even ones they know personally they are guilty of--are exercising, according to American laws and standards, a basic right of all citizens.
ethics have nothing to do with constitutional law
exercising your rights != ethics
like it's fully within my rights to hold a kkk rally on public property
doesn't make me not a racist dick, though
You're not really using a proper definition of ethics--it's a narrow one you're using. Ethics is much more complex than being racist. There are racist people who behave ethically, and there are racist people who do not.
Would you say it is evil or "morally wrong" to fight a speeding ticket? One can easily look at the underlying requirement which is the prosecutor and the police officers to prove that you committed the crime as described and in the manner stated, and conclude that you have an obligation to fight the ticket, because tickets are typically not given with any proof but an officer's say-so. No witnesses, no evidence, simply their word against yours.
Look, I wouldn't fight the ticket: I'd think it was a waste of time. But again, without even knowing the charges, I just wonder how you can so confidently state that it's morally wrong of her to plead not guilty. For all you know, the charge says, "ran over 3 grandmothers while singing metallica".
I can CONFIDENTLY state that Gihgehls is advocating something unethical: taking advantage of loopholes in the system to minimize the chance of the police officer appearing, thereby endangering the public welfare by wasting his time frivolously on multiple occasions, for the only purpose being to be able to lie to a judge without the officer there. That is most certainly unethical.
If your gf wants to [strike]minimize the chance of the officer showing up[/strike] seriously piss off a cop, she should file for an extension or two, ideally for a different day of the week than the original court date.
Whereas, if she wants to fight a charge that she thinks is trumped up because Officer Friendly had a bad day, that's not unethical.
She yelled fuck you at the cop, who then showed up at her home to deliver the tickets. Pretty sure her postponing the court date will just make him more determined.
Good calls, I stand corrected, although I didn't infer (because it wasn't explicitly stated) that the traffic cop was obviously there at the intersection directing traffic.
Ok, sure. You're right, that would probably piss him off. I think the OP has had plenty of advice to go on by this point, unless he wants to come back and tell us what his girlfriend is being accused of.
Hmmm, I would go to court, be sure not to lie, but stress that as a woman, having a random man who claims to be a cop (but without lights or vehicle to back that up) rap on your car and demand you pull over is possibly putting her in a dangerous situation. The judge may agree with you and invalidate the tickets not dealing with the obvious traffic infractions.
So a cop needs a light or vehicle to tell you to pull over and prove that he/she's a cop? No, sorry. Doesn't work that way. As well, she was in a crowded intersection, she wasn't in the middle of nowhere.
People have been accosted by perpetrators posing as police officers. Women have been raped by perpetrators posing as police officers. It is not an unfounded or entirely unreasonable stance to claim that without the obvious signs of authority (i.e. vehicle, lights) that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the man in fact is a cop, then the possibility exists.
Yeah as if a rapist couldn't go to a costume store and pick up a police uniform and walk up to random woman's car and tell her if she doesn't do some nasty shit she'll get a ticket.
But yeah, next time, call 911 and try to verify.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Sir CarcassI have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered Userregular
I find it weird that you cant be in the middle of an intersection when a light changes though. Here, you get leeway on that, and its actually accepted that after the light turns red the next 2 cars are allowed to proceed to turn left. There is actually a delay in the cross traffics light turning green to allow for this.
You can't be stopped in the middle of an intersection, like she was, because you are blocking traffic. If you see cars ahead of you stopped, you're supposed to wait at the light until either they clear out or the light changes to red (in which case you obviously wait until it's green again and you are clear to go). Unfortunately, a lot of people don't seem to get this and gleefully block the intersection.
Yeah I've also pulled into an intersection because there was enough room and the old lady in the Lincoln town car stopped 2 car lengths short blocking me in the intersection. We don't know the specifics other than she was a dick to the cops. She can probably argue the traffic violations, but unless she can convince the judge that she was scared of a foot cop asking her to pull over so she panicked and fled, she's probably screwed for the fleeing ticket.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yeah I've also pulled into an intersection because there was enough room and the old lady in the Lincoln town car stopped 2 car lengths short blocking me in the intersection. We don't know the specifics other than she was a dick to the cops. She can probably argue the traffic violations, but unless she can convince the judge that she was scared of a foot cop asking her to pull over so she panicked and fled, she's probably screwed for the fleeing ticket.
We don't even know what the tickets were FOR--I think it'd be a stupid argument to make ("In the middle of a busy intersection I was terrified when I was asked to pull over. Yes your honor, there were tons of witnesses and people everywhere. I was really worried about the incredibly common assaults on women by men who bought police costumes at the 5 and dime.") Look, no judge is going to buy that. He'll say, "Why didn't you drive a few blocks away, call 911 to verify his identity, and then go back and apologize and take your ticket for 'blocking traffic'? What a dumb way to handle a cheap ticket."
Again though, none of us know what any of the tickets are for. We can't really give any real advice. For all we know, the officer lost his cool after it happened (I sure would) and ended up writing a trumped up ticket that won't hold water for what she actually did. The OP should post the specific tickets here and then someone can probably give him actual advice. Until that point though, all we can legitimately state are our lolpinions.
I find it weird that you cant be in the middle of an intersection when a light changes though. Here, you get leeway on that, and its actually accepted that after the light turns red the next 2 cars are allowed to proceed to turn left. There is actually a delay in the cross traffics light turning green to allow for this.
You can't be stopped in the middle of an intersection, like she was, because you are blocking traffic. If you see cars ahead of you stopped, you're supposed to wait at the light until either they clear out or the light changes to red (in which case you obviously wait until it's green again and you are clear to go). Unfortunately, a lot of people don't seem to get this and gleefully block the intersection.
It's called blocking the box and in some cities it's a very, very big ticket because it can cause severe traffic problems.
Yeah as if a rapist couldn't go to a costume store and pick up a police uniform and walk up to random woman's car and tell her if she doesn't do some nasty shit she'll get a ticket.
If she felt threatened then calling 911 to verify the officer's authenticity would make sense, but it seems awfully unlikely that one would be in full plain view doing something as conspicuous as directing traffic on foot.
To be clear, I've read of people posing as police officers to do some pretty horrific things over the years, but usually it involves approaching the women in their apartment or with a mocked up vehicle while driving on some desolate area.
Standing around at a busy intersection? Not so much.
Again, which isn't to say that some industrious super-rapist won't think to try, and that anyone (man or woman alike) who feels they might be dealing with someone impersonating an officer should try to verify his or her authenticity, but I'd put "some cop on traffic detail" pretty low on that list.
Edit: also, lolpinions is pretty damn good.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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MichaelLCIn what furnace was thy brain?ChicagoRegistered Userregular
Again, which isn't to say that some industrious super-rapist won't think to try, and that anyone (man or woman alike) who feels they might be dealing with someone impersonating an officer should try to verify his or her authenticity, but I'd put "some cop on traffic detail" pretty low on that list.
As for the OP, if tickets are more than traffic violations, she should probably get a lawyer or some legal advice. Here in IL anyway there's always been a public defender(?) for traffic court who will act on your behalf, so your own isn't really needed for a speeding ticket.
Thanks for all the replies (not to shut down the conversation -- at least not on my account). For those wondering, it was
Blocking the intersection, Failure to Obey, and then Fleeing an Officer. The first two are nothing, the third one is a class A misdemeanor that has a max of 1 year in jail, 2500$. Did you know: you can flee an officer THREE TIMES before it becomes a felony?
As to some of the blank spots in the story --
Officer wanted her to 'move right' into a spot that she did not believe she could fit into. People were honking, he came up on her blind side and pounded on her window, and told her to do a thing that she thought was not possible. When she didn't do it, he started screaming. So she yelled back, by which point the intersection was clear and she went forward.
I'm certainly not going to say she wasn't at fault, but (to me) this is a classic example of someone coming on so strong that they provoked an emotional reaction. If he had been in a car with his flashers on, there's no way she would have fled -- it's just not in her personality. But a weird shouting person banging on your car can give you the momentary feeling of wanting to put your foot on the pedal.
A dude doing his job kinda poorly caused her to behave poorly. So it goes.
Get a lawyer, he should be able to get pretty much rid of that last ticket.
Probably not. Hopefully he'll be able to get it down to community service, but you aren't getting rid of a "fleeing" misdemeanor after saying "fuck you" to the officer.
Definitely get a lawyer. Misdemeanors can be serious. Good luck, Hockey!
I guess I'm hopeful that her clean record, the lack of meaningful traffic violations (blocking the intersection is about as low-stakes as you can get) and a contrite defendant means they don't stick her with anything too hard to pay off. It was a bit of a fluke situation.
Thanks for all the replies (not to shut down the conversation -- at least not on my account). For those wondering, it was
Blocking the intersection, Failure to Obey, and then Fleeing an Officer. The first two are nothing, the third one is a class A misdemeanor that has a max of 1 year in jail, 2500$. Did you know: you can flee an officer THREE TIMES before it becomes a felony?
As to some of the blank spots in the story --
Officer wanted her to 'move right' into a spot that she did not believe she could fit into. People were honking, he came up on her blind side and pounded on her window, and told her to do a thing that she thought was not possible. When she didn't do it, he started screaming. So she yelled back, by which point the intersection was clear and she went forward.
I'm certainly not going to say she wasn't at fault, but (to me) this is a classic example of someone coming on so strong that they provoked an emotional reaction. If he had been in a car with his flashers on, there's no way she would have fled -- it's just not in her personality. But a weird shouting person banging on your car can give you the momentary feeling of wanting to put your foot on the pedal.
A dude doing his job kinda poorly caused her to behave poorly. So it goes.
And our ethics question is answered! Yes, she can fight this with a clean conscience. Should she be hit with a year in prison over what sounds like someone being a jerk? No. He's a cop. He had authority in the situation. He embodies authority. He could have simply handled it politely instead of being a jerk about it. I think she can definitely fight it--based on his demeanor and out-of-hand actions--when she is charged with "fleeing".
If I were her, I'd talk to the lawyer, but I bet his advice will be: plead guilty to the two lower infractions and fight the 3rd one.
Posts
Even then, the correct answer is not "you leave", the correct answer is "you find a public place and dial 911 to confirm the ID"
Thanks for the newsflash, but speeding off and swearing at the person is not the acceptable course of action. She obviously was in the wrong and trying to twist the situation is not the proper thing to do.
Like I already said, they were in a crowded intersection and she had little to nothing to worry about.
I don't see why anyone is even trying to offer advice on how to get out of this. She's guilty and should just take her lumps and learn a lesson.
Maybe you broke the law, maybe you didnt, its up to the courts to prove that you did. Its not being a coward, its the system.
Or plead guilty and pay up. This is what uneducated people do.
Yes, let's waste taxpayer money fighting things that we're guilty of. Great idea.
Also, calling anyone who doesn't fight their tickets uneducated. Really?
Is the crux of your argument really that it was possible that the police officer directing traffic in a busy intersection during rush hour in broad daylight was actually potentially a rapist?
I'm sorry, but this is a fairly flimsy attempt to insert gender as a viable reason for speeding away from a uniformed officer while yelling an obscenity. Made especially ugly because the OP never even hinted that his g/f once thought that she was in danger from a fake police officer.
The g/f never believed she was in danger, and telling her she may be able to get away with it if she pleads her actions down as some sort of feminine fear is a particularly ugly brand of sexism - one that paints any woman anywhere as a scared and helpless bystander in their own life.
So please, just stop. The g/f never believed that she was in danger from the officer. Don't make this about something it isn't.
I mean, is it ethical? no. Does it work? most probably
but i think in the op's girlfriend's case the cop'll probably show up to this one, yeah
He will definitely be in court.
He came to their house to tell them about the tickets. He'll show up.
If you plead guilty, they will take every penny from those tickets. This is how it works. Not the other way around.
I've gotten out of many tickets by showing up in a nice suit, apologizing and promising the judge it wouldn't happen again. I have also pled not guilty to some infractions. It has never worked out better for me in those situations, but then I've never been guilty of anything worse than minor traffic violations, which it seems these tickets are.
This is exactly what the Ethicist says. The court and legal system exists for a reason. While you may be guilty, it is the job of the prosecution to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt: and it is the job of the law enforcement agent to collect enough proof and evidence to help the prosecution.
Honestly, I think she should just pay it and take it as a lesson learned. But, if you want to fight it, I don't think you're doing anything morally wrong.
Josh:
My little brother spent years being a speed demon, running red lights, crashing cars, etc. Got caught over and over. Never got in serious trouble, always plead not guilty. Over 100 on the 60 mile highway? 50 bucks. etc.
OP:
What were the tickets for in the end? I think we're all curious.
oh i know
I just wanted to impress the point that Awk's point is a good one, just not necessarily in this case
josh: you're color blind, that should be like an instant "get out of running red lights" free card
It may be outside the purview of this conversation, but any constitutional rights activist would argue that it's NOT ethically wrong. The constitution grants us the right to be innocent until proven guilty. The court system literally exists to try cases. If it was so simple as "you know you were wrong" then we wouldn't need our legal system.
People who fight tickets--even ones they know personally they are guilty of--are exercising, according to American laws and standards, a basic right of all citizens.
Yeah, it doesn't make it not frivolous though.
I think the arguments about her "thinking he was a crazy potential murderer" were definitely specious and stupid, but I don't know if it would be frivolous: bear in mind we don't even know what the tickets are for. If it was reckless endangerment, I think she could make a good case that she wasn't actually endangering anyone in a reckless fashion. After all, it was safe enough for an officer to walk into the middle of the street, and he ordered her to pull over--meaning it was safe enough for her to drive forward in order to pull over.
I mean, until we know the actual tickets being issued, we can't really say, so taking either extreme is just a bit early.
Edit:
My point is, she might be able to have a really logical, sound, not frivolous defense against some charges. Was she wrong to yell "f you" at the cop? Totally. Is that illegal? Probably not. Maybe she honestly believes that she was driving safely and the tickets are out of proportion to her offense. Let's wait and see before rushing to judgement.
ethics have nothing to do with constitutional law
exercising your rights != ethics
like it's fully within my rights to hold a kkk rally on public property
doesn't make me not a racist dick, though
You're not really using a proper definition of ethics--it's a narrow one you're using. Ethics is much more complex than being racist. There are racist people who behave ethically, and there are racist people who do not.
Would you say it is evil or "morally wrong" to fight a speeding ticket? One can easily look at the underlying requirement which is the prosecutor and the police officers to prove that you committed the crime as described and in the manner stated, and conclude that you have an obligation to fight the ticket, because tickets are typically not given with any proof but an officer's say-so. No witnesses, no evidence, simply their word against yours.
Look, I wouldn't fight the ticket: I'd think it was a waste of time. But again, without even knowing the charges, I just wonder how you can so confidently state that it's morally wrong of her to plead not guilty. For all you know, the charge says, "ran over 3 grandmothers while singing metallica".
I can CONFIDENTLY state that Gihgehls is advocating something unethical: taking advantage of loopholes in the system to minimize the chance of the police officer appearing, thereby endangering the public welfare by wasting his time frivolously on multiple occasions, for the only purpose being to be able to lie to a judge without the officer there. That is most certainly unethical.
I mean, come on:
Whereas, if she wants to fight a charge that she thinks is trumped up because Officer Friendly had a bad day, that's not unethical.
This isn't D&D, so I'll let this be my last response, but:
This is NOT always the case. Its very common, especially for minor fines, for the hit to go up if you go through the full trial. Plus court expenses.
Yeah as if a rapist couldn't go to a costume store and pick up a police uniform and walk up to random woman's car and tell her if she doesn't do some nasty shit she'll get a ticket.
But yeah, next time, call 911 and try to verify.
You can't be stopped in the middle of an intersection, like she was, because you are blocking traffic. If you see cars ahead of you stopped, you're supposed to wait at the light until either they clear out or the light changes to red (in which case you obviously wait until it's green again and you are clear to go). Unfortunately, a lot of people don't seem to get this and gleefully block the intersection.
We don't even know what the tickets were FOR--I think it'd be a stupid argument to make ("In the middle of a busy intersection I was terrified when I was asked to pull over. Yes your honor, there were tons of witnesses and people everywhere. I was really worried about the incredibly common assaults on women by men who bought police costumes at the 5 and dime.") Look, no judge is going to buy that. He'll say, "Why didn't you drive a few blocks away, call 911 to verify his identity, and then go back and apologize and take your ticket for 'blocking traffic'? What a dumb way to handle a cheap ticket."
Again though, none of us know what any of the tickets are for. We can't really give any real advice. For all we know, the officer lost his cool after it happened (I sure would) and ended up writing a trumped up ticket that won't hold water for what she actually did. The OP should post the specific tickets here and then someone can probably give him actual advice. Until that point though, all we can legitimately state are our lolpinions.
It's called blocking the box and in some cities it's a very, very big ticket because it can cause severe traffic problems.
I love it with a strange, quiet intensity.
Yeah, and yelling "fuck you" to a cop as you speed away is probably an aggravating circumstance.
If she felt threatened then calling 911 to verify the officer's authenticity would make sense, but it seems awfully unlikely that one would be in full plain view doing something as conspicuous as directing traffic on foot.
To be clear, I've read of people posing as police officers to do some pretty horrific things over the years, but usually it involves approaching the women in their apartment or with a mocked up vehicle while driving on some desolate area.
Standing around at a busy intersection? Not so much.
Again, which isn't to say that some industrious super-rapist won't think to try, and that anyone (man or woman alike) who feels they might be dealing with someone impersonating an officer should try to verify his or her authenticity, but I'd put "some cop on traffic detail" pretty low on that list.
Edit: also, lolpinions is pretty damn good.
Getting a little off-topic here, but 14-year old boy pretends to be a cop, goes on beat with real officer.
As for the OP, if tickets are more than traffic violations, she should probably get a lawyer or some legal advice. Here in IL anyway there's always been a public defender(?) for traffic court who will act on your behalf, so your own isn't really needed for a speeding ticket.
Blocking the intersection, Failure to Obey, and then Fleeing an Officer. The first two are nothing, the third one is a class A misdemeanor that has a max of 1 year in jail, 2500$. Did you know: you can flee an officer THREE TIMES before it becomes a felony?
As to some of the blank spots in the story --
Officer wanted her to 'move right' into a spot that she did not believe she could fit into. People were honking, he came up on her blind side and pounded on her window, and told her to do a thing that she thought was not possible. When she didn't do it, he started screaming. So she yelled back, by which point the intersection was clear and she went forward.
I'm certainly not going to say she wasn't at fault, but (to me) this is a classic example of someone coming on so strong that they provoked an emotional reaction. If he had been in a car with his flashers on, there's no way she would have fled -- it's just not in her personality. But a weird shouting person banging on your car can give you the momentary feeling of wanting to put your foot on the pedal.
A dude doing his job kinda poorly caused her to behave poorly. So it goes.
Get a lawyer, he should be able to get pretty much rid of that last ticket.
Probably not. Hopefully he'll be able to get it down to community service, but you aren't getting rid of a "fleeing" misdemeanor after saying "fuck you" to the officer.
Definitely get a lawyer. Misdemeanors can be serious. Good luck, Hockey!
But yeah, Lawyer Get.
And our ethics question is answered! Yes, she can fight this with a clean conscience. Should she be hit with a year in prison over what sounds like someone being a jerk? No. He's a cop. He had authority in the situation. He embodies authority. He could have simply handled it politely instead of being a jerk about it. I think she can definitely fight it--based on his demeanor and out-of-hand actions--when she is charged with "fleeing".
If I were her, I'd talk to the lawyer, but I bet his advice will be: plead guilty to the two lower infractions and fight the 3rd one.