Which is the norm for solitary in every case I've seen. Which I admit is limited to civilian jails and not military ones, which are supposedly harsher.
So the US prison system is fucked up. Glad to know.
The article on Salon, about what was going on with Manning, gives no sources for its claims regarding his conditions except one official who then pointed out inaccuracies in how he was sorted, which throws it all into doubt.
There is another source, David House, who visited him several times. Furthermore, the other source, Lt. Villliard, only corrects one aspect and not other aspects of solitary confinement, and is disputed by other sources. You´re really trying to hang me on one straw.
It's almost like we shouldn't be acting on unverified claims or something...
Seriously that's not the issue here, it's that even if what is in the article is true, there's people that are still defending that treatment (on the basis of the US having shitty military building contractors no less!?). I'd really like to see some evidence one way or the other regarding these claims, because otherwise as has been said before - America is torturing a British citizen.
Surely you see the massive impact here regardless on whether you think this is torture, whether this torture is justified or even if other people suffer worse everyday. The biggest thing here is you are doing stuff to the citizen of another country who considers what you are doing as torture. They are part of a larger group of countries that will stop you ever extraditing someone again (or delay it massively) from there because you've now put yourself on the list of states that does inhumane things to prisoners.
At the very best case, now every time you want to extradite, you've got months of 'The US tortures prisoners' and grandstanding judges and politicians, which will only feed into the system generating more anti-US feeling and reinforcing the message, encouraging more politicians to publically speak out against the US. It's got the potential to be the very worst thing for America to come out of the wikileaks scandal (especially as they'll be looking for something after the Assange stuff dies down).
All in all, not sure that's a bad thing at the moment.
Which is the norm for solitary in every case I've seen. Which I admit is limited to civilian jails and not military ones, which are supposedly harsher.
So the US prison system is fucked up. Glad to know.
People in solitary don't have pillows, spend 23 hours a day in there with nothing but books to read, and are given only an hour per day of exercise and social interaction. As stated multiple times this is the norm, and not special treatment for Manning. If you disagree with how solitary exists in the US why not make a thread about it? It wouldn't be the first.
Actually he's still a traitor. Even if found not guilty he'd still be a traitor just not a convicted one.
You need to make it clear this is your opinion.
So the US prison system is fucked up. Glad to know.
Your definition of solitary isolation as torture doesn't apply to 99% of its implementations.
There is another source, David House, who visited him several times. Furthermore, the other source, Lt. Villliard, only corrects one aspect and not other aspects of solitary confinement, and is disputed by other sources. You´re really trying to hang me on one straw.
Personal accounts of one person and a guy who said a lot of things, some of which were misreported or selectively chosen does not proof make, nor does it paint an accurate picture.
It's almost like we shouldn't be acting on unverified claims or something...
Seriously that's not the issue here, it's that even if what is in the article is true, there's people that are still defending that treatment (on the basis of the US having shitty military building contractors no less!?). I'd really like to see some evidence one way or the other regarding these claims, because otherwise as has been said before - America is torturing a British citizen.
Surely you see the massive impact here regardless on whether you think this is torture, whether this torture is justified or even if other people suffer worse everyday. The biggest thing here is you are doing stuff to the citizen of another country who considers what you are doing as torture. They are part of a larger group of countries that will stop you ever extraditing someone again (or delay it massively) from there because you've now put yourself on the list of states that does inhumane things to prisoners.
At the very best case, now every time you want to extradite, you've got months of 'The US tortures prisoners' and grandstanding judges and politicians, which will only feed into the system generating more anti-US feeling and reinforcing the message, encouraging more politicians to publically speak out against the US. It's got the potential to be the very worst thing for America to come out of the wikileaks scandal (especially as they'll be looking for something after the Assange stuff dies down).
All in all, not sure that's a bad thing at the moment.
Most of what you're saying makes no sense, it would be helpful if you could rephrase. And bringing up our treatment of certain other individuals (abhorrent I agree) is either a nonsequiter or a red herring.
Actually he's still a traitor. Even if found not guilty he'd still be a traitor just not a convicted one.
You need to make it clear this is your opinion.
Its my opinion based on the fact that it is know he did the things he's accused of, and has confessed as such. Just because you aren't found guilty of a crime, which I'm not stating will happen in this case, doesn't mean you didn't commit said crime.
Which is the norm for solitary in every case I've seen. Which I admit is limited to civilian jails and not military ones, which are supposedly harsher.
So the US prison system is fucked up. Glad to know.
People in solitary don't have pillows, spend 23 hours a day in there with nothing but books to read, and are given only an hour per day of exercise and social interaction. As stated multiple times this is the norm, and not special treatment for Manning. If you disagree with how solitary exists in the US why not make a thread about it? It wouldn't be the first.
I don't mean to challenge your claims, but in your experience is 7 months also usual or are these conditions usually much more short term?
Which is the norm for solitary in every case I've seen. Which I admit is limited to civilian jails and not military ones, which are supposedly harsher.
So the US prison system is fucked up. Glad to know.
People in solitary don't have pillows, spend 23 hours a day in there with nothing but books to read, and are given only an hour per day of exercise and social interaction. As stated multiple times this is the norm, and not special treatment for Manning. If you disagree with how solitary exists in the US why not make a thread about it? It wouldn't be the first.
I don't mean to challenge your claims, but in your experience is 7 months also usual or are these conditions usually much more short term?
Time in solitary varies based on the needs of said prisoner. But I have seen people wait for over a year for their trial. It can cause people to get let out on time served once their trial goes through.
Personal accounts of one person and a guy who said a lot of things, some of which were misreported or selectively chosen does not proof make, nor does it paint an accurate picture.
You really need to show how Lt. Villiard's statements were selectively chosen, when he challenged only one little aspect of his statements when all of the other show Manning's treatment as torture.
Personal accounts of one person and a guy who said a lot of things, some of which were misreported or selectively chosen does not proof make, nor does it paint an accurate picture.
You really need to show how Lt. Villiard's statements were selectively chosen, when he challenged only one little aspect of his statements when all of the other show Manning's treatment as torture.
yeah I'm just going to make the assumption that Lt. Villiard said more than what was put in the article.
The article's claims have already been brought into question, and its been shown they skewed the truth in an attempt to prove their point. Its not too far out there to doubt anything they claim after that.
The article's claims have already been brought into question, and its been shown they skewed the truth in an attempt to prove their point. Its not too far out there to doubt anything they claim after that.
One claim has been brought into question, other claims have not. That one claim has different sources, which don't agree with each other. And given that the disagreeing source is the US government, which I'm sorry to say has no special credibility especially on these kind of matters, nothing on that particular claim is certain.
Actually using the fact that he can't do certain things in solitary, when he can during his hour out of them, which I pointed out even before the redact, is more then one claim. The different sources are unknown ones and as far as I'm concerned might as well be from the author's mind.
The article's claims have already been brought into question, and its been shown they skewed the truth in an attempt to prove their point. Its not too far out there to doubt anything they claim after that.
One claim has been brought into question, other claims have not. That one claim has different sources, which don't agree with each other. And given that the disagreeing source is the US government, which I'm sorry to say has no special credibility especially on these kind of matters, nothing on that particular claim is certain.
Every single claim is in question, they have no sources. He doesn't quote David House, he mearly sasy Manning is not looking really good.
Cabezone on
0
Options
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
I swear I would love to beat some of the people in this thread with a stick some days.
any new cables surface that seem to be interesting?
I swear I would love to beat some of the people in this thread with a stick some days.
any new cables surface that seem to be interesting?
Well, we've got from a rudimentary run through Google News:
*Something here about the rising influence of Indonesia.
*Cuba's miffed with Jamaica about them not doing enough to curb drug smuggling.
*Fidel Castro almost died in 2006. Just like all the other times he almost died, except after this near-death he handed off to Raul.
*Also concerning Cuba: the US thinks they'll be insolvent in 2-3 years. We have a history of predicting Cuba/Castro's imminent demise. We haven't been right yet.
*BP had a gas blowout in Azerbaijan in 2008 and narrowly avoided an explosion like that kicked off the Gulf oil spill. The president accused BP of stealing oil from the country.
*Chevron negotiated with Iran over an oil field crossing the Iraq border.
*Speculation by the US over a potential transition of power in Egypt.
*And while we're at it, let's do Thailand speculation too.
*New Zealand has been spying on Fiji's military.
*China's been feasting on Venezuelan oil.
*The US tried to use Bollywood as a tool to stifle the radicalization of British Muslims.
*The US is miffed at Switzerland for not being anti-Iran enough.
*Watch for a rising insurgency in Peru.
*The Vatican is horrified over all the boy-diddling, but is also worried that Irish efforts to prosecute undermine church sovreignity.
*Ghana's got a druglord problem too. Ghana knew that already, but the leak alleges that no efforts are being made to arrest the ringleaders, just the small-timers. Why? Lack of political balls.
*Uzbekistan: "rampantly corrupt." Which Britain should probably have noticed a bit better, seeing as they had a big ol' trade delegation there last week.
*The US blocked an effort from Spain to lift EU sanctions on China.
I think I'm gonna go ahead and stop there.
EDIT: Ooh, ooh, one more for irrisistibility. North Korea wanted to host an Eric Clapton concert.
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
As Julian Assange emerged from his nine-day imprisonment, there were renewed concerns about the physical and psychological health of Bradley Manning, the former US intelligence operative suspected of leaking the diplomatic cables at the centre of the storm.
Manning, who was arrested seven months ago, is being held at a military base in Virginia and faces a court martial and up to 52 years in prison for his alleged role in copying the cables.
His friends and supporters also claim they have been the target of extra-judicial harassment, intimidation and outright bribery by US government agents.
According to David House, a computer researcher from Boston who visits Manning twice a month, he is starting to deteriorate. "Over the last few weeks I have noticed a steady decline in his mental and physical wellbeing," he said. "His prolonged confinement in a solitary holding cell is unquestionably taking its toll on his intellect; his inability to exercise due to [prison] regulations has affected his physical appearance in a manner that suggests physical weakness."
Manning, House added, was no longer the characteristically brilliant man he had been, despite efforts to keep him intellectually engaged. He also disputed the authorities' claims that Manning was being kept in solitary for his own good.
"I initially believed that his time in solitary confinement was a decision made in the interests of his safety," he said. "As time passed and his suicide watch was lifted, to no effect, it became clear that his time in solitary – and his lack of a pillow, sheets, the freedom to exercise, or the ability to view televised current events – were enacted as a means of punishment rather than a means of safety."
House said many people were reluctant to talk about Manning's condition because of government harassment, including surveillance, warrantless computer seizures, and even bribes. "This has had such an intimidating effect that many are afraid to speak out on his behalf," House said.
Some friends report being followed extensively. Another computer expert said the army offered him cash to – in his words – "infiltrate" the WikiLeaks website. He said: "I turned them down. I don't want anything to do with this cloak and dagger stuff."
When the Washington Post tried to investigate the claim, an army criminal investigation division spokesman refused to comment. "We've got an ongoing investigation," he said. "We don't discuss our techniques and tactics."
On 3 November, House, 23, said he found customs agents waiting for him when he and his girlfriend returned to the US after a short holiday in Mexico. His bags were searched and two men identifying themselves as Homeland Security officials said they were being detained for questioning and would miss their connecting flight. The men seized all his electronic items and he was told to hand over all passwords and encryption keys – which he refused. The items have yet to be returned, said House. He added: "If Manning is convicted, it will be because his individual dedication to human ethics far surpasses that of the US government."
House, who met Manning through friends but came to know him only after his detention, said he was committed to his cause. "Like many computer scientists, I identify with the open government issues at the core of this case."
Quantico Lt. Brian Villiard said Manning, 22, "is subjected to the same conditions as anyone else in the pretrial confinement facility. Every single [detainee] gets one hour of TV and recreation time each day."
"That's a safety measure, that's across the board for every detainee," he said, explaining that detainees can become dehydrated or injure themselves if allowed to exercise alone.
He said Manning is provided a pillow that, as a "precautionary measure," cannot be torn, but he emphasized that he is not on suicide watch. He said Manning receives bedding and a piece of material to cover up with that acts as a sheet, contrary to Salon.com's opinion piece by Greenwald that claims he is being denied a "pillow and sheets" for his bed.
Posts
So the US prison system is fucked up. Glad to know.
There is another source, David House, who visited him several times. Furthermore, the other source, Lt. Villliard, only corrects one aspect and not other aspects of solitary confinement, and is disputed by other sources. You´re really trying to hang me on one straw.
It's almost like we shouldn't be acting on unverified claims or something...
Seriously that's not the issue here, it's that even if what is in the article is true, there's people that are still defending that treatment (on the basis of the US having shitty military building contractors no less!?). I'd really like to see some evidence one way or the other regarding these claims, because otherwise as has been said before - America is torturing a British citizen.
Surely you see the massive impact here regardless on whether you think this is torture, whether this torture is justified or even if other people suffer worse everyday. The biggest thing here is you are doing stuff to the citizen of another country who considers what you are doing as torture. They are part of a larger group of countries that will stop you ever extraditing someone again (or delay it massively) from there because you've now put yourself on the list of states that does inhumane things to prisoners.
At the very best case, now every time you want to extradite, you've got months of 'The US tortures prisoners' and grandstanding judges and politicians, which will only feed into the system generating more anti-US feeling and reinforcing the message, encouraging more politicians to publically speak out against the US. It's got the potential to be the very worst thing for America to come out of the wikileaks scandal (especially as they'll be looking for something after the Assange stuff dies down).
All in all, not sure that's a bad thing at the moment.
People in solitary don't have pillows, spend 23 hours a day in there with nothing but books to read, and are given only an hour per day of exercise and social interaction. As stated multiple times this is the norm, and not special treatment for Manning. If you disagree with how solitary exists in the US why not make a thread about it? It wouldn't be the first.
You need to make it clear this is your opinion.
Your definition of solitary isolation as torture doesn't apply to 99% of its implementations.
Personal accounts of one person and a guy who said a lot of things, some of which were misreported or selectively chosen does not proof make, nor does it paint an accurate picture.
Most of what you're saying makes no sense, it would be helpful if you could rephrase. And bringing up our treatment of certain other individuals (abhorrent I agree) is either a nonsequiter or a red herring.
Its my opinion based on the fact that it is know he did the things he's accused of, and has confessed as such. Just because you aren't found guilty of a crime, which I'm not stating will happen in this case, doesn't mean you didn't commit said crime.
I don't mean to challenge your claims, but in your experience is 7 months also usual or are these conditions usually much more short term?
Time in solitary varies based on the needs of said prisoner. But I have seen people wait for over a year for their trial. It can cause people to get let out on time served once their trial goes through.
You really need to show how Lt. Villiard's statements were selectively chosen, when he challenged only one little aspect of his statements when all of the other show Manning's treatment as torture.
yeah I'm just going to make the assumption that Lt. Villiard said more than what was put in the article.
Until you show evidence otherwise, I'm treating that as a thoroughly unsupported assumption.
One claim has been brought into question, other claims have not. That one claim has different sources, which don't agree with each other. And given that the disagreeing source is the US government, which I'm sorry to say has no special credibility especially on these kind of matters, nothing on that particular claim is certain.
Every single claim is in question, they have no sources. He doesn't quote David House, he mearly sasy Manning is not looking really good.
any new cables surface that seem to be interesting?
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Well, we've got from a rudimentary run through Google News:
*Something here about the rising influence of Indonesia.
*Cuba's miffed with Jamaica about them not doing enough to curb drug smuggling.
*Fidel Castro almost died in 2006. Just like all the other times he almost died, except after this near-death he handed off to Raul.
*Also concerning Cuba: the US thinks they'll be insolvent in 2-3 years. We have a history of predicting Cuba/Castro's imminent demise. We haven't been right yet.
*BP had a gas blowout in Azerbaijan in 2008 and narrowly avoided an explosion like that kicked off the Gulf oil spill. The president accused BP of stealing oil from the country.
*Chevron negotiated with Iran over an oil field crossing the Iraq border.
*Speculation by the US over a potential transition of power in Egypt.
*And while we're at it, let's do Thailand speculation too.
*New Zealand has been spying on Fiji's military.
*China's been feasting on Venezuelan oil.
*The US tried to use Bollywood as a tool to stifle the radicalization of British Muslims.
*The US is miffed at Switzerland for not being anti-Iran enough.
*Watch for a rising insurgency in Peru.
*The Vatican is horrified over all the boy-diddling, but is also worried that Irish efforts to prosecute undermine church sovreignity.
*Ghana's got a druglord problem too. Ghana knew that already, but the leak alleges that no efforts are being made to arrest the ringleaders, just the small-timers. Why? Lack of political balls.
*Uzbekistan: "rampantly corrupt." Which Britain should probably have noticed a bit better, seeing as they had a big ol' trade delegation there last week.
*The US blocked an effort from Spain to lift EU sanctions on China.
I think I'm gonna go ahead and stop there.
EDIT: Ooh, ooh, one more for irrisistibility. North Korea wanted to host an Eric Clapton concert.
Can't really have a military coup without one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Fijian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
It's been kind of a big deal in Australia because they're a part of the commonwealth. The expelled our diplomat and everything.
Maker of awesome OPs!
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/16/bradley-manning-health-deteriorating