You totally should be! JIM is my favorite currently-running comic series. It does a really incredible job of handling mythical content, from mythical themes to divine characters to the rules of magic. It's super-good!
There had been rumors around for years that Danzig was once approached to audition for the part of Wolverine in the X-Men movies, despite the fact that he's not really an actor, but all of that seemed a little dubious at best until LA Weekly asked him about it in an interview that ran this week. In it, Danzig says he was, in fact, approached—for what that's worth—but that he's glad he didn't do it because the movie was terrible. He has apparently not seem X2.
The real classic Dan-zinger comes when the reporter asks the Misfits frontman how he would have played the role differently than Hugh Jackman. The response? "It wouldn't have been as gay."
The people who produce superhero comics have given up on the mass audience, and it in turn has given up on them.
I feel like the author makes some pretty ignorant generalizations here.
If no cultural barrier prevents a public that clearly loves its superheroes from picking up a new "Avengers" comic, why don't more people do so? The main reasons are obvious: It is for sale not in a real bookstore but in a specialty shop, and it is clumsily drawn, poorly written and incomprehensible to anyone not steeped in years of arcane mythology.
There are literally dozens of extremely talented writers and artists in comics today, and comics are more friendly to new readers now than they ever have been in the past. Not to mention that only single issues are sold in specialty shops. Trade paperbacks can be found in any real bookstore these days.
I'll be honest, when AvsX is over I'll probably drop the majority of the "superhero" titles I get. I'm just kinda bored with the whole thing now. I'll still be getting comics but mostly from Vertigo, Image, ICON, etc.
There had been rumors around for years that Danzig was once approached to audition for the part of Wolverine in the X-Men movies, despite the fact that he's not really an actor, but all of that seemed a little dubious at best until LA Weekly asked him about it in an interview that ran this week. In it, Danzig says he was, in fact, approached—for what that's worth—but that he's glad he didn't do it because the movie was terrible. He has apparently not seem X2.
The real classic Dan-zinger comes when the reporter asks the Misfits frontman how he would have played the role differently than Hugh Jackman. The response? "It wouldn't have been as gay."
We're all glad we got Jackman's "gay" Wolverine over this guy. I guess he didn't pay attention to Logan trying to get into Jean's pants from the first second he saw her.
The people who produce superhero comics have given up on the mass audience, and it in turn has given up on them.
I feel like the author makes some pretty ignorant generalizations here.
If no cultural barrier prevents a public that clearly loves its superheroes from picking up a new "Avengers" comic, why don't more people do so? The main reasons are obvious: It is for sale not in a real bookstore but in a specialty shop, and it is clumsily drawn, poorly written and incomprehensible to anyone not steeped in years of arcane mythology.
There are literally dozens of extremely talented writers and artists in comics today, and comics are more friendly to new readers now than they ever have been in the past. Not to mention that only single issues are sold in specialty shops. Trade paperbacks can be found in any real bookstore these days.
True. However, he's not wrong that comics can be very difficult for new readers to jump into especially with continuity heavy titles like X-men or during huge cross-overs like AvX. When you're a new reader, don't know about their histories (in the comics) & have no interest in doing "homework" researching who's who and what's what reading a story line starting with part 67 with a comic with several dozen characters in it I can see this as daunting.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
people act like you need to have read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Messiah Complex or Generation Hope to understand AvX
when all you need to know is The Phoenix Force is coming, it has a history with the X-Men and it could wipe out all life on Earth. All of which is explained in the comic itself.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters? Those were really good for filling new readers in for both the series and the current stories. I think you're underestimating how intimidating comics can be for new readers, especially for people who don't pay attention to the properties in other media, which helps tremendously in communicating the basics to new comers (like X-men:TAS, Spider-man: TAS, Batman: TAS etc), or starting from scratch with the medium altogether. Some people can't even understand the panel sequences and give up IIRC Ledger did this while researching Joker. Super-hero comics are not an easy medium to get into unless you're chosen a good issue to start off with at the best of times.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters? Those were really good for filling new readers in for both the series and the current stories. I think you're underestimating how intimidating comics can be for new readers, especially for people who don't pay attention to the properties in other media, which helps tremendously in communicating the basics to new comers (like X-men:TAS, Spider-man: TAS, Batman: TAS etc), or starting from scratch with the medium altogether. Some people can't even understand the panel sequences and give up IIRC Ledger did this while researching Joker. Super-hero comics are not an easy medium to get into unless you're chosen a good issue to start off with at the best of times.
Every Marvel comic has a pretty solid recap page in the beginning of every issue that does a great job of filling in the past events of the story arc specifically for people who missed it or need a refresher
It should be said that the Avengers trade paperback that they put out in my Barnes & Nobles bookstore to capitalize on the movie is a confusing mishmash of Avenger stories from over a period of decades. Like it had the first issue, the first issue with Hawkeye, a random issue where Tigra collects her first Avengers paycheck, a long story from the 90's with Kang the conqueror, and a random issue of Thor Disassembled.
I imagine that anyone who picked that up, as opposed to something more accessible like The Ultimates or Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, would probably feel that all their misgivings about the medium were confirmed.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters?
Well I mean look what you get on the first page of Wolverine and the X-Men #9
Right there is pretty much everything you need to know to understand what you are about to read.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters? Those were really good for filling new readers in for both the series and the current stories. I think you're underestimating how intimidating comics can be for new readers, especially for people who don't pay attention to the properties in other media, which helps tremendously in communicating the basics to new comers (like X-men:TAS, Spider-man: TAS, Batman: TAS etc), or starting from scratch with the medium altogether. Some people can't even understand the panel sequences and give up IIRC Ledger did this while researching Joker. Super-hero comics are not an easy medium to get into unless you're chosen a good issue to start off with at the best of times.
Every Marvel comic has a pretty solid recap page in the beginning of every issue that does a great job of filling in the past events of the story arc specifically for people who missed it or need a refresher
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters?
Well I mean look what you get on the first page of Wolverine and the X-Men #9
Right there is pretty much everything you need to know to understand what you are about to read.
Excellent. I'm glad they're still doing this.
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
people act like you need to have read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Messiah Complex or Generation Hope to understand AvX
when all you need to know is The Phoenix Force is coming, it has a history with the X-Men and it could wipe out all life on Earth. All of which is explained in the comic itself.
Honestly I tried thinking through all the underpinnings to explain AvX in its complexity to someone who had just watched the X-Men films and Avengers and my brain broke the second time I had to go back over another part of Messiah Complex (the passing of the torch to Cyclops.)
Like, sure, it's not actually that narratively complicated but there is still a felt onus of the weight of continuity that turns people off. As someone who was in that position fairly recently - remember me freaking out at Batman #1? - AvX would be very bad for a new reader. All you have to do is ask one very simple, obvious question - why are Wolverine and Cyclops apart? And suddenly you're riding the conveyor belt back through Schism/Gen Hope/Messiah Complex/House of M. People don't like getting only part of the story and AvX is just terrible as a gateway because it's the product of all of this stuff that has been weighing primarily on Cyclops. It's the history of everyone in full flower and taken to its conclusions, not a clean break.
Edit: Let's not forget that #0, the prelude to the entire event, is basically 20 pages of ciphers surrounding Hope and Wanda, nudging them ever-so-slightly in order to set up the pieces but pulling a ton of emotional narrative out of signifying history that has nothing at all to do with the MODOK/Serpent Squad fights.
A new reader isn't exactly going to get that the important parts are Carol telling Wanda to come back, Tony saying "I always liked them" (I mean, there's nothing on the Vision in #0, it's all over in that Avengers issue which is maybe even worse), and Hope blasting Cyclops away. That's not what we get from any of it.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters? Those were really good for filling new readers in for both the series and the current stories. I think you're underestimating how intimidating comics can be for new readers, especially for people who don't pay attention to the properties in other media, which helps tremendously in communicating the basics to new comers (like X-men:TAS, Spider-man: TAS, Batman: TAS etc), or starting from scratch with the medium altogether. Some people can't even understand the panel sequences and give up IIRC Ledger did this while researching Joker. Super-hero comics are not an easy medium to get into unless you're chosen a good issue to start off with at the best of times.
Every Marvel comic has a pretty solid recap page in the beginning of every issue that does a great job of filling in the past events of the story arc specifically for people who missed it or need a refresher
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters?
Well I mean look what you get on the first page of Wolverine and the X-Men #9
Right there is pretty much everything you need to know to understand what you are about to read.
I just read iZombie is ending with issue 28. Wonder if they'll stuff volume 4 with the last 10 issues or just release a volume 5.
BTW that series worth checking out?
Absolutely. Chris Roberson has done a fantastic job with the writing on iZombie and Mike Allred's artwork is great as always IMO. A kind of oddball, funny sort of horror book. Yet another Vertigo series that was highly entertaining but got the axe. Sigh.
Current Game Rotation: Life is Strange, Super Mario Odyssey, Spelunky
I know Jeff Lemire said Sweet Tooth was ending on his own terms with issue 40 but according to interviews he did when the book came out he said that the story was "only 30 or 40 issues long" so that's no surprise. Scalped ending at issue 60 also was planned by Aaron.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters? Those were really good for filling new readers in for both the series and the current stories. I think you're underestimating how intimidating comics can be for new readers, especially for people who don't pay attention to the properties in other media, which helps tremendously in communicating the basics to new comers (like X-men:TAS, Spider-man: TAS, Batman: TAS etc), or starting from scratch with the medium altogether. Some people can't even understand the panel sequences and give up IIRC Ledger did this while researching Joker. Super-hero comics are not an easy medium to get into unless you're chosen a good issue to start off with at the best of times.
Every Marvel comic has a pretty solid recap page in the beginning of every issue that does a great job of filling in the past events of the story arc specifically for people who missed it or need a refresher
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters?
Well I mean look what you get on the first page of Wolverine and the X-Men #9
Right there is pretty much everything you need to know to understand what you are about to read.
Excellent. I'm glad they're still doing this.
DC don't do re-caps man
they feel re-caps are un-necessary
DC are idiots
Yeah, I never got why DC never copied that from Marvel. If they have steal shit at least make it the good stuff.
They won't get money unless new readers can access the stories properly. It seems DC's only solution to whenever continuity gets built up for a decade or two is a to reboot the entire universe then repeat. o_O
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
They won't get money unless new readers can access the stories properly. It seems DC's only solution to whenever continuity gets built up for a decade or two is a to reboot the entire universe then repeat. o_O
Lest you forget, the reboot also has to deep-six whatever made the original narrative interesting. A JSA made up of twenty-year-olds with a space cop Alan Scott? Seriously?
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
This is definitely true, but I think even with recap pages, casual readers feel a pressure to be familiar with the story and that turns them off. It's like watching Part 3 of a film trilogy first. Everything is explained in exposition, but you have this nagging feeling that you would enjoy this more if you had watched the first two movies.
I don't know what can be done about that perception.
They won't get money unless new readers can access the stories properly. It seems DC's only solution to whenever continuity gets built up for a decade or two is a to reboot the entire universe then repeat. o_O
Lest you forget, the reboot also has to deep-six whatever made the original narrative interesting. A JSA made up of twenty-year-olds with a space cop Alan Scott? Seriously?
Didn't like that, either. The best Justice Society was the one from Johns & Goyer's JSA run, or they could have made them heroes from WW II who were a team for a few decades before the present with only a few surviving members alive.
I really think though that people who want to read comics but feel intimidated are under a mistaken assumption that superhero stories require you to have read twenty or thirty years of comics in order to understand what's going on when you really don't. Everything you really need to know about the story in AvX is explained in issue #1.
This is definitely true, but I think even with recap pages, casual readers feel a pressure to be familiar with the story and that turns them off. It's like watching Part 3 of a film trilogy first. Everything is explained in exposition, but you have this nagging feeling that you would enjoy this more if you had watched the first two movies.
I don't know what can be done about that perception.
They'd have to severely alter the format to make it easier on new readers in some way. Not going to happen any time soon.
Harry Dresden on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Make storytelling so good it doesn't matter. Part of the problem is that a bunch of modern big 2 comics uses familiarity and continuity signs to create humor or tension. Like Avengers during the HAMMER war had a running sight gag of Rulk eating a bowl of cereal during everything. That humor only works if you know Rulk, but a canny new reader knows there's something going on there.
On the other hand, Aaron's WatXM set up some jokes with Kitty phasing through construction materials after the reader knows what she does. Aaron used the inspectors as a voice for new readers. There's some jokes that work much better if you know continuity - Beast freaking out over the Danger Room making everything explode - but they're just enhanced not denied.
Rulk eating a bowl of cereal doesn't require any previous knowledge
it is a sight gag
big red angry monster is sitting there eating a comically large bowl of cereal
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ArrynAsk not the InnkeeperFor destiny is thy name!Registered Userregular
edited May 2012
I have no clue what the right answer is, but I'll toss in a bit of my perspective, that of a long-time reader who left and returned recently (last year).
I don't read a lot of Marvel stuff right now, because it doesn't feel accessible. Is that just my own perception? Maybe, but it's one I know a lot of my friends share. Perception trumps Truth, every time.
I grew up reading Avengers, but when I leaf through the book now at my LCS, it's hard to recognize the characters I used to know so well. And say what you will about back story not being important, but it's easy to feel lost. X-men books are even worse. Relationships between characters I knew have changed drastically, and I have no clue where or why.
On the other hand, DC has made it easy. Say what you will about all the bad stuff the reboot's done, and yeah there's stuff I don't like too, but it's been so very easy to jump back onboard and just enjoy some old-fashioned capes comics.
Then I consider my wife's experience. Brand new comics fan as of this year. She picks up an Avengers book and it's nothing but questions, because these are nothing like the Avengers she knows (from the movies, or A:EMH). But with the rebooted DC books, she just digs it and dives right in.
I would love to read more Marvel stuff right now. But that feeling of inaccessibility is what holds me back.
Posts
I'm pretty sure she's early thirties at most, and Pete's probably in his late twenties.
Didn't Marvel de-age Pete to his early twenties post-One More Day?
he must be by now
and Carol is in her thirties
nothing wrong with that!
http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/23728745454/on-the-disir
Contains spoilers for JIM 638, obvs.
The part I found most impressive is how much long-term planning was involved.
AV Club: Danzig says he was asked to play Wolverine, wouldn't have done it "as gay" as Hugh Jackman
This Wall Street Journal book review of Leaping Tall Buildings, which profiles creators, becomes a damning indictment of the state of (superhero) comics.
I feel like the author makes some pretty ignorant generalizations here.
There are literally dozens of extremely talented writers and artists in comics today, and comics are more friendly to new readers now than they ever have been in the past. Not to mention that only single issues are sold in specialty shops. Trade paperbacks can be found in any real bookstore these days.
There certainly isn't.
We're all glad we got Jackman's "gay" Wolverine over this guy. I guess he didn't pay attention to Logan trying to get into Jean's pants from the first second he saw her.
True. However, he's not wrong that comics can be very difficult for new readers to jump into especially with continuity heavy titles like X-men or during huge cross-overs like AvX. When you're a new reader, don't know about their histories (in the comics) & have no interest in doing "homework" researching who's who and what's what reading a story line starting with part 67 with a comic with several dozen characters in it I can see this as daunting.
people act like you need to have read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Messiah Complex or Generation Hope to understand AvX
when all you need to know is The Phoenix Force is coming, it has a history with the X-Men and it could wipe out all life on Earth. All of which is explained in the comic itself.
Not everyone starts with #1. Does Marvel still have those captions and descriptions for characters? Those were really good for filling new readers in for both the series and the current stories. I think you're underestimating how intimidating comics can be for new readers, especially for people who don't pay attention to the properties in other media, which helps tremendously in communicating the basics to new comers (like X-men:TAS, Spider-man: TAS, Batman: TAS etc), or starting from scratch with the medium altogether. Some people can't even understand the panel sequences and give up IIRC Ledger did this while researching Joker. Super-hero comics are not an easy medium to get into unless you're chosen a good issue to start off with at the best of times.
BTW that series worth checking out?
I imagine that anyone who picked that up, as opposed to something more accessible like The Ultimates or Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, would probably feel that all their misgivings about the medium were confirmed.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Well I mean look what you get on the first page of Wolverine and the X-Men #9
Right there is pretty much everything you need to know to understand what you are about to read.
Ok.
Excellent. I'm glad they're still doing this.
Honestly I tried thinking through all the underpinnings to explain AvX in its complexity to someone who had just watched the X-Men films and Avengers and my brain broke the second time I had to go back over another part of Messiah Complex (the passing of the torch to Cyclops.)
Like, sure, it's not actually that narratively complicated but there is still a felt onus of the weight of continuity that turns people off. As someone who was in that position fairly recently - remember me freaking out at Batman #1? - AvX would be very bad for a new reader. All you have to do is ask one very simple, obvious question - why are Wolverine and Cyclops apart? And suddenly you're riding the conveyor belt back through Schism/Gen Hope/Messiah Complex/House of M. People don't like getting only part of the story and AvX is just terrible as a gateway because it's the product of all of this stuff that has been weighing primarily on Cyclops. It's the history of everyone in full flower and taken to its conclusions, not a clean break.
Edit: Let's not forget that #0, the prelude to the entire event, is basically 20 pages of ciphers surrounding Hope and Wanda, nudging them ever-so-slightly in order to set up the pieces but pulling a ton of emotional narrative out of signifying history that has nothing at all to do with the MODOK/Serpent Squad fights.
A new reader isn't exactly going to get that the important parts are Carol telling Wanda to come back, Tony saying "I always liked them" (I mean, there's nothing on the Vision in #0, it's all over in that Avengers issue which is maybe even worse), and Hope blasting Cyclops away. That's not what we get from any of it.
DC don't do re-caps man
they feel re-caps are un-necessary
DC are idiots
Money people, you need to know your priorities!
Absolutely. Chris Roberson has done a fantastic job with the writing on iZombie and Mike Allred's artwork is great as always IMO. A kind of oddball, funny sort of horror book. Yet another Vertigo series that was highly entertaining but got the axe. Sigh.
Has Mike Carey stated when The Unwritten is done?
Yeah, I never got why DC never copied that from Marvel. If they have steal shit at least make it the good stuff.
They won't get money unless new readers can access the stories properly. It seems DC's only solution to whenever continuity gets built up for a decade or two is a to reboot the entire universe then repeat. o_O
Lest you forget, the reboot also has to deep-six whatever made the original narrative interesting. A JSA made up of twenty-year-olds with a space cop Alan Scott? Seriously?
"Ride or Die" confirmed Dominic Toretto, as they took off to find the Dragon Balls in hopes of reviving their friend Sonic
Going to be played by Will Smith next summer, right?
This is definitely true, but I think even with recap pages, casual readers feel a pressure to be familiar with the story and that turns them off. It's like watching Part 3 of a film trilogy first. Everything is explained in exposition, but you have this nagging feeling that you would enjoy this more if you had watched the first two movies.
I don't know what can be done about that perception.
Didn't like that, either. The best Justice Society was the one from Johns & Goyer's JSA run, or they could have made them heroes from WW II who were a team for a few decades before the present with only a few surviving members alive.
They'd have to severely alter the format to make it easier on new readers in some way. Not going to happen any time soon.
On the other hand, Aaron's WatXM set up some jokes with Kitty phasing through construction materials after the reader knows what she does. Aaron used the inspectors as a voice for new readers. There's some jokes that work much better if you know continuity - Beast freaking out over the Danger Room making everything explode - but they're just enhanced not denied.
So, it's possible but maybe harder.
Rulk eating a bowl of cereal doesn't require any previous knowledge
it is a sight gag
big red angry monster is sitting there eating a comically large bowl of cereal
I don't read a lot of Marvel stuff right now, because it doesn't feel accessible. Is that just my own perception? Maybe, but it's one I know a lot of my friends share. Perception trumps Truth, every time.
I grew up reading Avengers, but when I leaf through the book now at my LCS, it's hard to recognize the characters I used to know so well. And say what you will about back story not being important, but it's easy to feel lost. X-men books are even worse. Relationships between characters I knew have changed drastically, and I have no clue where or why.
On the other hand, DC has made it easy. Say what you will about all the bad stuff the reboot's done, and yeah there's stuff I don't like too, but it's been so very easy to jump back onboard and just enjoy some old-fashioned capes comics.
Then I consider my wife's experience. Brand new comics fan as of this year. She picks up an Avengers book and it's nothing but questions, because these are nothing like the Avengers she knows (from the movies, or A:EMH). But with the rebooted DC books, she just digs it and dives right in.
I would love to read more Marvel stuff right now. But that feeling of inaccessibility is what holds me back.