It was another anecdote, a lot more recent than that, but also a derailment. I'm not willing to let you misdirect attention away from your appalling racism, though. Let's talk about that. What do you think your chinese workmates would say to you if they saw what you were writing here? I bet they'd be super into you. Maybe they'd throw you a party, with nice red firecrackers and lanterns, but not those freaky wonton things.
And the jewish name thing, are you nuts? There's already a stereotype that the scary scary jews control the media on top of ye olde run of the mill anti-semitism to deal with in the US. I can see wanting a separate name for use in public. Lets add to that the fact that a huge number of actors (yes, even white folk!) use names different to their birthnames for reasons of a) personal branding, b) the requirement to have a unique moniker for SAG membership and c) plain ol' boring privacy.
And then of course there's the little fact that many children of immigrants grew up with an anglicised surname, because US immigration officials had a habit of 'fixing' immigrant surnames without asking the people involved first. Many of those who didn't receive this little welcome gift from the state eventually simplified their names for the benefit of the rubes they'd moved in with, who couldn't cope with learning how to pronounce their real names and got all het up about words like Nguyen.
Jesus christ on a cracker you just don't know any damn thing, do you.
You're just always on, aren't you?
It's a little known fact about The Cat that if she doesn't get her daily quota of outrage and self-righteousness, she'll actually die.
So you see, Atomic Ross is providing a service with his ridiculous ignorance.
It is always funny though to see the people who can't actually debate the Cat start to attack her for being good at debating.
You know, in a debate thread.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Is it weird to anyone else that highly secularized nations like Japan, Korea, and China are so backwards in regards to women's rights?
It seems that most sexually-repressive nations have huge amount of religious motivation, and even what relative amount exists in Western nations is generally (at least these days) coming from a position of religious fundamentalism. The religious fear and subjugation generally does a decent job of preventing women from asking, "Hey, WTF dudes?"
I think that "religion" is just one tradition of many. The notion that there's a "natural order to things" doesn't necessarily need to be moored in any particular religious teachings.
Also, while China, Korea, Japan are all ostensibly "secular", they're also extremely superstitious in some respects, such as medicine, and ancestor/spirit worship. I don't know that this necessarily informs the misogyny there, but I think there's a lot more vague spirituality than the secular appearance would have you believe.
Is this just anecdotal, or is there any actual data that bears out the idea that Asian transplant communities - presumably South Asian and East Asian here (incl., Filipino migrants, say), although perhaps you just mean the latter - are substantially more insular than other immigrant communities?
I don't if I'd say they were more insular, but they certainly seem to place a higher emphasis on retaining cultural values and norms than immigrants from other groups. This is completely anecdotal, as I don't even begin to know what data would support or refute such a position. My experience is limited to my Chinese friends in New York, my wife's landlord in New York, my Chinese uncle, and the Asian doctors and nurses I work with. But there's a commonality of experience with them that I feel fairly safe in extrapolating into a community-wide phenomenon. I could be wrong.
There is a 'model minority' stereotype at play here that may effectively encourage some non-assimilation. If you believe, as the host white community has been demonstrated via survey to believe, that your culture grants you some advantages (of discipline, or whatever) - why would you set out to change it?
That's a good point, and probably why there is still such a seeming disconnect between 1st-generation Asian-Americans and their immigrant parents. But in regards to the OP, you have to do some pretty serious rhetorical gymnastics to justify something like overt misogyny as being "culturally beneficial."
In the US, 'model minority' groups compromise East Asian migrants and Jewish migrants. Does the Jewish community set out to erase its distinctive nature?
Actually, they did, and it still goes on today, though not as much. As well, it seems to depend greatly on religious impetus. Jews immigrating to the US routinely would change their family name to seem less semetic; Walter Matthau, Gene Wilder, Jack Benny, Lauren Bacall all changed their names. Even more modern entertainers like Jon Stewart, Natalie Portman, and Winona Ryder don't use their real last names. It seems that Jews that are interested in being more accessible to Western audiences do indeed wish to jettison some part of their nature.
(A) okay, so it is anecdotal. Just to keep that in mind.
(B) True. But the 'model minority' stereotype is pretty badly-reasoned, too. And Robotech is, well, not made by first-generation Asian Americans or their immigrant parents. We have every reason to believe that immigrants may be culturally different from both their source communities - selection effects here - and their host communities.
(C) Don't Asians adopt Westernized first named pretty often? Jewish people change their last names, East Asians change their first names? Or something? How prevalent such name changes are, I have no idea, but I am positively certain that the percentage among the East Asian diaspora who have adopted Westernized first names is much, much larger than present in East Asia.
Is it weird to anyone else that highly secularized nations like Japan, Korea, and China are so backwards in regards to women's rights?
It seems that most sexually-repressive nations have huge amount of religious motivation, and even what relative amount exists in Western nations is generally (at least these days) coming from a position of religious fundamentalism. The religious fear and subjugation generally does a decent job of preventing women from asking, "Hey, WTF dudes?"
I think that "religion" is just one tradition of many. The notion that there's a "natural order to things" doesn't necessarily need to be moored in any particular religious teachings.
Also, while China, Korea, Japan are all ostensibly "secular", they're also extremely superstitious in some respects, such as medicine, and ancestor/spirit worship. I don't know that this necessarily informs the misogyny there, but I think there's a lot more vague spirituality than the secular appearance would have you believe.
Also, Korea is ridiculously Christian.
Some ill-informed hypotheses:
- religious content may simply have jack all to do with social change; its logical content is never binding in real life; the nature of social conservatism is to argue that common cultural touchstones prohibit change. The motivators of such change may lie elsewhere, with religion or the natural order invoked solely as a convenient excuse - gender ratios and relative economic stability being obvious candidates. This is to an extent self-reinforcing, of course.
- China and Korea have oscillated between periods of authoritarianism and revolution since WWII; political liberalization in Korea is relatively recent. Japan has sat through one-party government since 1955 to 2009. None of this suggests an environment conducive to bottom-up organizing for women's rights; the mob, if it exists at all, is busy yelling about other issues.
It is worth noting that there was a large degree of social change prior, even under the constant slow burn of organized military exchanges up until the end of WWII. Both the Communists and the Nationalists in China were relatively progressive on gender, at least compared to their predecessor governments. Likewise comparing pre-Restoration and Meiji Japan, and even prewar and postwar Japan. This did tend to be top-down social change, though, imposed from Westernized political bureaucrats or revolutionaries from above.
I have to agree with the general sentiment that maybe we shouldn't read too deeply into a cartoon series (created in the 80's aimed directly at young boys) for deep issues regarding feminism and equal gender rights.
That said, I see a lot of broad generalizations here about Asian countries and it gets pretty tiring when Westerners constantly paint the East (or the Middle East or Africa or the Smurfs or whoever else is the "enemy" flavor of the month) as being overly misogynistic and oppressive toward women. I don't know, there's more than a hint of liberal elitism which seems to claim that the West must somehow punish these foreigners and "rescue" their women from their evil barbaric ways (wars and invasions have started over less).
I mean, Western culture is just as patriarchal and misogynistic in its portrayal of women in the media (just look at Hollywood). And it's not just limited to the media, but things like politics and industries like technology and engineering. I could bring up Europeans' seeming obsession to ban the burqa in public, for instance. And just how many women pastors do you see giving Church services in America? Women sports and female athletes? The WNBA? Puh-leeze.
And, as someone else mentioned, even nerds and geeks aren't immune to misogyny in the grand eternal quest to "rape and pwn bitches" or online memes of telling women/rivals to "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich."
@ Atomic Ross
Seriously, dude? Oh, you're from Texas. I could make some asinine generalizations about Texans pulled from just my anecdotal and personal experience but that would make me look pretty ignorant and small-minded, yes?
I have to agree with the general sentiment that maybe we shouldn't read too deeply into a cartoon series (created in the 80's aimed directly at young boys) for deep issues regarding feminism and equal gender rights.
That said, I see a lot of broad generalizations here about Asian countries and it gets pretty tiring when Westerners constantly paint the East (or the Middle East or Africa or the Smurfs or whoever else is the "enemy" flavor of the month) as being overly misogynistic and oppressive toward women. I don't know, there's more than a hint of liberal elitism which seems to claim that the West must somehow punish these foreigners and "rescue" their women from their evil barbaric ways (wars and invasions have started over less).
I mean, Western culture is just as patriarchal and misogynistic in its portrayal of women in the media (just look at Hollywood). And it's not just limited to the media, but things like politics and industries like technology and engineering. I could bring up Europeans' seeming obsession to ban the burqa in public, for instance. And just how many women pastors do you see giving Church services in America? Women sports and female athletes? The WNBA? Puh-leeze.
And, as someone else mentioned, even nerds and geeks aren't immune to misogyny in the grand eternal quest to "rape and pwn bitches" or online memes of telling women/rivals to "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich."
@ Atomic Ross
Seriously, dude? Oh, you're from Texas. I could make some asinine generalizations about Texans pulled from just my anecdotal and personal experience but that would make me look pretty ignorant and small-minded, yes?
Evidence that japan at least is misogynistic was provided earlier in the thread.
When I say fascist I'm more referencing that stuff about Supermen than the state-control stuff. I don't know, I'm not articulate enough to get into Nietzche without a pile of references next to me. But a lot of his fans tend to be douches, basically.
He's been co-opted by fascists and cryptofascists, I think. A lot of what I read of his was fine.
Well fascism isn't only about obedience, that's the view that we've gotten through American culture because we like to think that as individualists we can't ever have been fascistic. In this case I think that the Catholic criticism of fascism (specifically Milosz) gives a pretty good idea of how fascistic ideas came about. Now this is only one theory, and it's very clearly seen through a Catholic lens, but Milosz' theory was that the road to fascism was that--
A) The idea that persons, in isolation, are moral. Robinson Crusoe discovered God etc, on an island, and created this idea that 'if I was alone and didn't have to deal with all these assholes, life would be great'
This idea alone isn't that bad, but when combined with
The idea that people, as a whole, are assholes. Think about many Dickinson books, and just books in general that say that humans are bastards.
combine these ideas, that the One is a force of good and that the Many are a force of evil, and you get
C) The idea that any action where the One exerts his/her will over the Many is a good thing. You can see this in earlier books, like the Red and the Black, where a guy pretends to be a priest so that he can become a Superbeing like Napoleon.
Therefore, fascism isn't only about obedience and traditionalism. It's both individualist, in fact it actually 'celebrates' individualism more than most other ideologies, but it's individualist because it says that the Individual is great while People in general are total sheeple. You can see this in a lot of existentialism and in the people who decide that they're existentialists, but you see this behavior in...a lot of people.
I have to agree with the general sentiment that maybe we shouldn't read too deeply into a cartoon series (created in the 80's aimed directly at young boys) for deep issues regarding feminism and equal gender rights.
That said, I see a lot of broad generalizations here about Asian countries and it gets pretty tiring when Westerners constantly paint the East (or the Middle East or Africa or the Smurfs or whoever else is the "enemy" flavor of the month) as being overly misogynistic and oppressive toward women. I don't know, there's more than a hint of liberal elitism which seems to claim that the West must somehow punish these foreigners and "rescue" their women from their evil barbaric ways (wars and invasions have started over less).
I mean, Western culture is just as patriarchal and misogynistic in its portrayal of women in the media (just look at Hollywood). And it's not just limited to the media, but things like politics and industries like technology and engineering. I could bring up Europeans' seeming obsession to ban the burqa in public, for instance. And just how many women pastors do you see giving Church services in America? Women sports and female athletes? The WNBA? Puh-leeze.
And, as someone else mentioned, even nerds and geeks aren't immune to misogyny in the grand eternal quest to "rape and pwn bitches" or online memes of telling women/rivals to "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich."
@ Atomic Ross
Seriously, dude? Oh, you're from Texas. I could make some asinine generalizations about Texans pulled from just my anecdotal and personal experience but that would make me look pretty ignorant and small-minded, yes?
Evidence that japan at least is misogynistic was provided earlier in the thread.
I saw. As another person has stated, change takes time and progress doesn't just happen overnight. I still assert that I sometimes question why some folks like to target Asian countries as being overly misogynistic and patriarchal, and by extension, painting Asian males as horrible women-beating oppressors. I've seen similar discussions in regards to Muslims as well. Agendas, and all that.
I realize it's a red herring to try to divert the discussion toward the West and how patriarchal and misogynistic it can be as well, but it's a topic that's worth talking about too, and one that doesn't exist in a vacuum in this day of age of instant media, global travel, and cross culturalization.
We wanna talk about how shittily the West treats women?
I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet.
How do you guys feel about Suckerpunch? I think that Suckerpunch is, in some ways, a good representation of the way that Western media has tried to use the idea of feminism and women empowerment in order to get viewers, but without examining the deeper ramifications of female empowerment.
I have to agree with the general sentiment that maybe we shouldn't read too deeply into a cartoon series (created in the 80's aimed directly at young boys) for deep issues regarding feminism and equal gender rights.
That said, I see a lot of broad generalizations here about Asian countries and it gets pretty tiring when Westerners constantly paint the East (or the Middle East or Africa or the Smurfs or whoever else is the "enemy" flavor of the month) as being overly misogynistic and oppressive toward women. I don't know, there's more than a hint of liberal elitism which seems to claim that the West must somehow punish these foreigners and "rescue" their women from their evil barbaric ways (wars and invasions have started over less).
I mean, Western culture is just as patriarchal and misogynistic in its portrayal of women in the media (just look at Hollywood). And it's not just limited to the media, but things like politics and industries like technology and engineering. I could bring up Europeans' seeming obsession to ban the burqa in public, for instance. And just how many women pastors do you see giving Church services in America? Women sports and female athletes? The WNBA? Puh-leeze.
And, as someone else mentioned, even nerds and geeks aren't immune to misogyny in the grand eternal quest to "rape and pwn bitches" or online memes of telling women/rivals to "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich."
@ Atomic Ross
Seriously, dude? Oh, you're from Texas. I could make some asinine generalizations about Texans pulled from just my anecdotal and personal experience but that would make me look pretty ignorant and small-minded, yes?
Evidence that japan at least is misogynistic was provided earlier in the thread.
I saw. As another person has stated, change takes time and progress doesn't just happen overnight. I still assert that I sometimes question why some folks like to target Asian countries as being overly misogynistic and patriarchal, and by extension, painting Asian males as horrible women-beating oppressors. I've seen similar discussions in regards to Muslims as well. Agendas, and all that.
I realize it's a red herring to try to divert the discussion toward the West and how patriarchal and misogynistic it can be as well, but it's a topic that's worth talking about too, and one that doesn't exist in a vacuum in this day of age of instant media, global travel, and cross culturalization.
Except the West is not as bad. That's the whole point. Japan is close to the bottom compared to other developed countries.
This is a problem.
Japan is not some third-world failed state were it might be unavoidable. Japan has been an economically and politically developed nation for decades.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
We wanna talk about how shittily the West treats women?
I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet.
How do you guys feel about Suckerpunch? I think that Suckerpunch is, in some ways, a good representation of the way that Western media has tried to use the idea of feminism and women empowerment in order to get viewers, but without examining the deeper ramifications of female empowerment.
I blame Tomb Raider and its ilk (Ultraviolet, the Resident Evil movies, etc.). It (barely) masquerades as "girl power" while objectifying women as little more than T&A but with guns, swords, and 'tude. It gets the fanboys salivatin', amirite?
I saw. As another person has stated, change takes time and progress doesn't just happen overnight. I still assert that I sometimes question why some folks like to target Asian countries as being overly misogynistic and patriarchal, and by extension, painting Asian males as horrible women-beating oppressors. I've seen similar discussions in regards to Muslims as well. Agendas, and all that.
I realize it's a red herring to try to divert the discussion toward the West and how patriarchal and misogynistic it can be as well, but it's a topic that's worth talking about too, and one that doesn't exist in a vacuum in this day of age of instant media, global travel, and cross culturalization.
Except the West is not as bad. That's the whole point. Japan is close to the bottom compared to other developed countries.
This is a problem.
Japan is not some third-world failed state were it might be unavoidable. Japan has been an economically and politically developed nation for decades.
But Japan and the USA is not the same. We (Americans) bombed the crap out of their country during WWII, occupied them, built them back up economically but with a pretty schizophrenic take on progressive issues (we can thank MacArthur for that). Old clashing with the new, and all that. Japan didn't have the same suffrage movement, or a Civil Rights movement that overtook the entire country like it did in America (because Japan has a largely homogenized population), and even then, those progressive changes took time to enforce before becoming ingrained and "normalized" in the West.
This is not an excuse, however, merely what I see is the cause for the relatively slow progress when it comes to women rights and the treatment of immigrants in Japan. Korea is in a similar situation, at least with the South. America came in after the war and institutionalized a lot of changes for the better, but some traditions can clash. China, having been humiliated by Japan and Western colonial powers in the past, is cautious to adopt Western polices and customs but it's making some progress especially now that it's the largest economy in the world and has to deal with the West more and more.
I just take issue with how some are framing the West as being the "enlightened" civilization and the rest of the world as savage and barbaric, at least in the way of treating their women, and that we somehow must force our ideals and customs upon other nations whether they like it or not. As I've said, conflicts (wars, invasions, colonialism, etc.) have started over less.
I think that another problem is that after the nukes, we pressed our culture upon Japan in several odd ways. When I see Japanese culture, in a lot of aspects I see this weird version of 1950's America, especially when it comes to gender relations and the expectations put on men and women.
The difference though is that despite efforts to keep Mexicans out, they have integrated fairly well and have a cultural identity large enough to be recognized in the United States as something that isn't exotic or alien.
I have to agree with the general sentiment that maybe we shouldn't read too deeply into a cartoon series (created in the 80's aimed directly at young boys) for deep issues regarding feminism and equal gender rights.
That said, I see a lot of broad generalizations here about Asian countries and it gets pretty tiring when Westerners constantly paint the East (or the Middle East or Africa or the Smurfs or whoever else is the "enemy" flavor of the month) as being overly misogynistic and oppressive toward women. I don't know, there's more than a hint of liberal elitism which seems to claim that the West must somehow punish these foreigners and "rescue" their women from their evil barbaric ways (wars and invasions have started over less).
I mean, Western culture is just as patriarchal and misogynistic in its portrayal of women in the media (just look at Hollywood). And it's not just limited to the media, but things like politics and industries like technology and engineering. I could bring up Europeans' seeming obsession to ban the burqa in public, for instance. And just how many women pastors do you see giving Church services in America? Women sports and female athletes? The WNBA? Puh-leeze.
And, as someone else mentioned, even nerds and geeks aren't immune to misogyny in the grand eternal quest to "rape and pwn bitches" or online memes of telling women/rivals to "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich."
@ Atomic Ross
Seriously, dude? Oh, you're from Texas. I could make some asinine generalizations about Texans pulled from just my anecdotal and personal experience but that would make me look pretty ignorant and small-minded, yes?
Evidence that japan at least is misogynistic was provided earlier in the thread.
I saw. As another person has stated, change takes time and progress doesn't just happen overnight. I still assert that I sometimes question why some folks like to target Asian countries as being overly misogynistic and patriarchal, and by extension, painting Asian males as horrible women-beating oppressors. I've seen similar discussions in regards to Muslims as well. Agendas, and all that.
I realize it's a red herring to try to divert the discussion toward the West and how patriarchal and misogynistic it can be as well, but it's a topic that's worth talking about too, and one that doesn't exist in a vacuum in this day of age of instant media, global travel, and cross culturalization.
Oh cmon, do you really want to get into "and you hang your negroes" style rhetoric?
Well, the OP does raise a good point. I have cut down heavily on my viewing of fringe-leftist entertainment, which means I no longer watch television at all (I rarely watched it to begin with), and watch few films.
If entertainment is actively promoting negative values, watching it knowingly is of no harm, but paying money for it certainly is.
Therefore, fascism isn't only about obedience and traditionalism. It's both individualist, in fact it actually 'celebrates' individualism more than most other ideologies, but it's individualist because it says that the Individual is great while People in general are total sheeple. You can see this in a lot of existentialism and in the people who decide that they're existentialists, but you see this behavior in...a lot of people.
You are probably putting more intellectual effort into Fascism than Mussolini himself did.
Fascism loves the trappings of tradition. But Fascism was never the Imperial Rome Mussolini pretended it was. Fascism is a cult of personality, whereas to the Romans, the office of Emperor was far more holy than the person of Emperor.
As you suggest, it is far more of an individualist and modernist ideology.
DisruptorX2 on
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
blame Tomb Raider and its ilk (Ultraviolet, the Resident Evil movies, etc.). It (barely) masquerades as "girl power" while objectifying women as little more than T&A but with guns, swords, and 'tude. It gets the fanboys salivatin', amirite?
The most interesting thing about Tomb raider is that it very nearly wasn't.
Originally the character design was male (indiana jones ripoff to the max), and then they had a quick meeting where they determined this would cause some serious copyright problems.
So they made the character female. And then fucked up the model in such a way that the tits were huge (the original concept art didn't have the monster knockers).
The story of what the original designers intended that character to be and how each iteration ended up playing the various elements is actually pretty interesting. But I don't think authorial intent was the problem with Tomb Raider certainly - it was more generalised industry pressure took it further and further in the wrong direction. Depending on your position you might see the upcoming reboot as either a good or a bad thing. Her breasts have certainly shrunk, but then again they've been shrinking for 3 games now.
Well, the OP does raise a good point. I have cut down heavily on my viewing of fringe-leftist entertainment, which means I no longer watch television at all (I rarely watched it to begin with), and watch few films.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How do fringe leftist ideals and mainstream television relate?
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
Is this your idea of an April Fools' post? I'm trying to give you an out here, because the last time I heard a person express such openly racist and balls-out ignorant sentiments, I was visiting an elderly relative in a dementia ward.
"The chinese are dirty and their food is weird"? My god, you actually managed to top "Ray Bradbury is a social deviant because he didn't drive". I didn't think that was possible!
I'm glad someone already had the nous to point out the many flaws in your culture in an attempt to give you some perspective, but I get the feeling it'll just whoosh straight over your head.
This is an interesting progression of thought--I say this a Taiwanese male. Not Taiwanese-American, as I did not arrive in America until I'd already held American citizenship for almost 18 years. As such, I belong to a group of which approximately ~85% of which were educated and acculturated by the White Terror, or the aftermath of the White Terror, as the victims or the descendants of the victims. The other ~15% being Chinese, and thus, not effected the same way. Fascism...or maybe Leninism-turned-fascism-lite...cannot be good for overcoming misogyny, right? And hell, if I spent 2 or 3 years in the army like my uncle did, instead of 14 months, I'd probably have turned into the sort of woman-hater I'm shocked he isn't--and I'd probably hate the Chinese as well.
I can think of the misogyny that exists in my own culture, pretty easily (with some of that being inherited from Japan, and the rest from other sources). And I'd like to see that overcome--but this presents the issue: is there only one direction to move in to practically overcome, for example, misogyny?
I'm not enough of a sociologist to answer that, but the overwhelming answer seems to be "Hell yes." It's sort of the Fukuyama-esque expectation of "evolving society"--you see, there's a road, and while the road is pretty wide at the beginning, it's as narrow as length of thread at the end, and that end is a democratic, moderately-Keynesian capitalist society where everyone behaves like upper middle-class white people. So the Chinese will stop eating their smelly food, and the Japanese will stop idealizing their stay-at-home mothers, and the Taiwanese will stop training their young men to hate the only women they see regularly for a year or so during the least pleasant time in their life, in the officer corps. And the smelly food and stay-at-home moms. Probably should take away all the rifles and machine guns we're giving to the women-haters in their barracks, too.
The counter-argument, of course, is something like--at the risk of straw-manning it--that cultural flexibility allows for things like misogyny, obviously, but more extremely, female genital mutilation. I mention that because, in a past thread, that was literally the example brought up. And, to be fair, if all cultures did become American, that would presumably put an end to that very coercive and painful custom. You'd be really hard pressed to defend something like genital mutilation for...either gender.
But it does seem to end with a general, "They need to become more like us Americans." Maybe that isn't necessarily a bad thing, though when I think of certain types of media originating in America, I can understand the reluctance that might appear. Forget Star Trek and its short skirts and green women --that's appreciated as the product of a time much earlier. Since I've come to the US, I come to view the overwhelming majority of American comic books are totally worthless, and little more than excuses to portray women with breasts the size of bowling balls in brightly colored spandex, joining in their 'roided-up male [strike]chaperons[/strike] counterparts in engaging in crude and, at times, vaguely-fascist patriotic vigilante justice, pummeling evil out of society like they're Italian blackshirts at a May Day parade, and the only way to for the bold individual to save the world from the idiot mob is to bash their teeth out the back of their heads.
Not all of it, but a good 90%, easy. Now that's entertainment.
Actually, I do think the vast majority are horrible. Ratio wise, that may be overreaching a bit, but we're doing that here, right?
blame Tomb Raider and its ilk (Ultraviolet, the Resident Evil movies, etc.). It (barely) masquerades as "girl power" while objectifying women as little more than T&A but with guns, swords, and 'tude. It gets the fanboys salivatin', amirite?
The most interesting thing about Tomb raider is that it very nearly wasn't.
Originally the character design was male (indiana jones ripoff to the max), and then they had a quick meeting where they determined this would cause some serious copyright problems.
So they made the character female. And then fucked up the model in such a way that the tits were huge (the original concept art didn't have the monster knockers).
The story of what the original designers intended that character to be and how each iteration ended up playing the various elements is actually pretty interesting. But I don't think authorial intent was the problem with Tomb Raider certainly - it was more generalised industry pressure took it further and further in the wrong direction. Depending on your position you might see the upcoming reboot as either a good or a bad thing. Her breasts have certainly shrunk, but then again they've been shrinking for 3 games now.
Tomb Raider is also...'strange' (in a good way?)...in that it's not really a successful play of the whole "faux girl power" formula that straight, when you consider that there's a fairly consistent portrayal of the title character as a near-sociopath--or rather, exhibiting behavior closely resembling psychopathy. It's a complaint of "Well, she'd be a great role model if she wasn't parading around with those giant knockers in short-shorts and a tank top," with the fundamental failing of, "What kind of role model barely expresses human expression while mowing down every other human being in sight as violently as possible, without even a hint of remorse? And the tits and the shorts are the problem? What about those men she shot to death while grinning like a maniac over some ancient bit of jewelry?"
Don't get be wrong, this is a trait that is in no way limited to Tomb Raider. And I love the games, they're probably among my favorite adventure games of all time. But it's not like Lara is fighting German Nazis or genocide-commiting aliens or evil faux-communist Russians invading American for the nineteenth time--in other words, subjects of moral inferiority and/or designated acceptable for massacre under the guise of warfare. She's murdering people who have more or less the same moral standing she has for the most part, and in droves.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How do fringe leftist ideals and mainstream television relate?
They are one and the same, the intellectual left and the mainstream. Now, I know this is D&D, and you'll have the original poster here and others analyzing media written by fellow leftists for traces of heresy and/or not being leftist enough. That's why I love you folks.
Now, I don't generally watch cartoons from the 80s, but I have a feeling that the show the OP is referring to was heavily pushing what would be considered progressive back then. Probably veiled metaphors for race relations, or the like, as that was a more topical issue at the time. If not, well, it is unusual.
Its amusing to think that progressive crusaders 20 (well, I guess closer to 30) years later are lambasting the media of the past for its counter-revolutionary views. The original poster being offended because it portrays women behaving in ways that do not coincide with the way he thinks women should behave.
the...bwah? So you you've got a hate-on for Aaron Sorkin, I can live with that, but if you think that mainstream media, excepting maybe the highbrow HBO-serial-entertainment end of it, is overtly politically leftie then all I can say is you've got a really weird definition of what constitutes leftist thought
Plus, the overwhelming majority--like, practically the whole of it--of the American left is actually still center or even center-of-right in the tradition of the 20th century left.
You know those crazy Maoist professors you only see on university campuses occasionally, or in Trotskyite cells? They basically mainstream left in South America, East Asia, parts of Europe. Which is not to say there are lots of leftists in, say, Japan or Taiwan, there aren't (they all got killed in Taiwan, dunno about Japan), but those there are are very much left if they even come close to calling themselves "leftists".
But it does seem to end with a general, "They need to become more like us Americans." Maybe that isn't necessarily a bad thing, though when I think of certain types of media originating in America, I can understand the reluctance that might appear. Forget Star Trek and its short skirts and green women --that's appreciated as the product of a time much earlier. Since I've come to the US, I come to view the overwhelming majority of American comic books are totally worthless, and little more than excuses to portray women with breasts the size of bowling balls in brightly colored spandex, joining in their 'roided-up male [strike]chaperons[/strike] counterparts in engaging in crude and, at times, vaguely-fascist patriotic vigilante justice, pummeling evil out of society like they're Italian blackshirts at a May Day parade, and the only way to for the bold individual to save the world from the idiot mob is to bash their teeth out the back of their heads.
... yeah, the OP was originally criticizing a given media exported from Japan, and then somewhere it was loosely argued to be representative of Japanese cultural flaws in some way - if we were this cavalier in analysis, someone outside the US would be similarly horrified. Perhaps about other things. There is a long-standing fascination with the American media fascination with weapons and violence, come to think of it.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How do fringe leftist ideals and mainstream television relate?
They are one and the same, the intellectual left and the mainstream. Now, I know this is D&D, and you'll have the original poster here and others analyzing media written by fellow leftists for traces of heresy and/or not being leftist enough. That's why I love you folks.
Now, I don't generally watch cartoons from the 80s, but I have a feeling that the show the OP is referring to was heavily pushing what would be considered progressive back then. Probably veiled metaphors for race relations, or the like, as that was a more topical issue at the time. If not, well, it is unusual.
Its amusing to think that progressive crusaders 20 (well, I guess closer to 30) years later are lambasting the media of the past for its counter-revolutionary views. The original poster being offended because it portrays women behaving in ways that do not coincide with the way he thinks women should behave.
I'm not sure you have an accurate perception of reality. At least in regards to mainstream media/culture in Western society. I encourage you to analyze further with an open mind and heightened critical insight. If these areas are lacking, perhaps more education would be required.
I could go on and try to assist you by providing information in this matter, but I've found that people who approach critical thought from the stance you seem to be taking are usually fairly close minded and heavily under the influence of confirmation bias.
It's just a very bizarre(and false) notion to consider mainstream western culture to be under a form of strong intellectual influence. Especially American mainstream media.
You seem to be mis characterizing the OP's initial thoughts regarding female portrayal in the media he used as an example. From what I can see, he isn't suggesting any form of 'should' in regards to how a female should behave. More so that the show he described is depicting women as being held to a certain tradition of gender normalization.
the...bwah? So you you've got a hate-on for Aaron Sorkin, I can live with that, but if you think that mainstream media, excepting maybe the highbrow HBO-serial-entertainment end of it, is overtly politically leftie then all I can say is you've got a really weird definition of what constitutes leftist thought
I guess that is just my love of hyperbole getting the better of me. Fringe was probably the wrong adjective to use.
Ironically, I generally like HBO, because it is quality. Their series generally have something to say, sure. The commentaries, for example on Rome, explain their desire to portray Roman ethics as completely distinct from Christian (and thus, secular-modern) as well as briefly commenting on the generally negative depiction of Brutus and the republican or optimate faction. Do I fully agree with these stances? No, and I can see why they wish to portray as they do. But I can certainly still appreciate the effort that went into the creation, nothing about it offends me. I am getting somewhat off topic, though.
It's just a very bizarre notion to consider mainstream western culture to be under a form of strong intellectual influence.
Touche.
I cannot quite understand how someone would not see the connection with media and leftist thought, though. One follows the other. I was watching Barnie Miller not that long ago, and was basically checking off the (mostly still, to this day) progressive issues as they appeared. They all pop up. Issues of race, homosexuality, gender roles. I'm sure someone here can go back and watch that old show and find something to be offended by.
That sort of show is more of a vanguard, of course, it doesn't not reflect how the majority of programming of its time portrays things, but it is certainly mainstream.
If you think I believe that a shadowy cabal of ivory tower intellectuals are dictating the direction of entertainment media, or something, of course not.
Japan has a non-negligible Communist party, but its strength is probably driven by anti-US sentiment.
You probably already know this, Ronya, yourself, but since "anti-Americanism" is kind of a flash-word or whatever in discussions of nations, it should be noted aloud that the CP of Japan's anti-US sentiment is radically different than the tradition of anti-US sentiment in Japan, or for that matter, many places with perceptible anti-US sentiment (lots of places, to be fair, the US is the military world superpower). It stems from an anti-capitalist basis (duh) and uniformed opposition to the US-Japanese security agreement (also somewhat unique) and American troops stationed in Japan, though it defends Article 9 (prohibiting acts of war by the state).
I meant more "I don't think Japan killed the leftists the country had left after the Second World War like they did in Taiwan." I guess they got tired or disillusioned or whatever.
But it does seem to end with a general, "They need to become more like us Americans." Maybe that isn't necessarily a bad thing, though when I think of certain types of media originating in America, I can understand the reluctance that might appear. Forget Star Trek and its short skirts and green women --that's appreciated as the product of a time much earlier. Since I've come to the US, I come to view the overwhelming majority of American comic books are totally worthless, and little more than excuses to portray women with breasts the size of bowling balls in brightly colored spandex, joining in their 'roided-up male [strike]chaperons[/strike] counterparts in engaging in crude and, at times, vaguely-fascist patriotic vigilante justice, pummeling evil out of society like they're Italian blackshirts at a May Day parade, and the only way to for the bold individual to save the world from the idiot mob is to bash their teeth out the back of their heads.
... yeah, the OP was originally criticizing a given media exported from Japan, and then somewhere it was loosely argued to be representative of Japanese cultural flaws in some way - if we were this cavalier in analysis, someone outside the US would be similarly horrified. Perhaps about other things. There is a long-standing fascination with the American media fascination with weapons and violence, come to think of it.
The long held constant of American entertainment that violence does, in fact, make right, does in fact disturb some people. I know my extended family was disturbed about it when I first came to the United States (they still are, though I guess they're happy I didn't become a caricature of that fact after six years). It's made all the more disturbing by the fact that the American superpower exists, and is not a sedentary establishment. I hate to make this sort of equivalency, but consider that people profess to be disturbed by oversexed women in Japanese manga not only because of that, but because misogyny clearly exists (to them) in actual Japan. American comic books could be goddamn disturbing if you were to consider America has a long tradition of using force--military force, economic force--to force other peoples to behave in an preferred manner. Other countries do it as well, but those countries don't churn out huge quantities of movies, comic books, and television series glorifying uses of force on a personal level.
the...bwah? So you you've got a hate-on for Aaron Sorkin, I can live with that, but if you think that mainstream media, excepting maybe the highbrow HBO-serial-entertainment end of it, is overtly politically leftie then all I can say is you've got a really weird definition of what constitutes leftist thought
I guess that is just my love of hyperbole getting the better of me. Fringe was probably the wrong adjective to use.
Ironically, I generally like HBO, because it is quality. Their series generally have something to say, sure. The commentaries, for example on Rome, explain their desire to portray Roman ethics as completely distinct from Christian (and thus, secular-modern) as well as briefly commenting on the generally negative depiction of Brutus and the republican or optimate faction. Do I fully agree with these stances? No, and I can see why they wish to portray as they do. But I can certainly still appreciate the effort that went into the creation, nothing about it offends me. I am getting somewhat off topic, though.
I'm quite curious about this! But sadly I haven't watched Rome or those Spartacus shows so yeah, there's nowhere to go here :P
Do check out Rome. A rare combination of excellent (if frequently deliberately overdramatic) storytelling, excellent actors, and excellent art design.
Very good stuff. Two phenomenal actors from HBO's earlier film Conspiracy are in it as well.
EDIT: Also, yeah, South Korea? Extremely Christian. Ridiculously Christian. More than a quarter Christian, making it the most successful faith, and way above states with a shared recent history and comparably industrial development (Japan and Taiwan) I cannot speak to the situation of misogyny in South Korea, since I only lived there for a few months at the longest, though if we're going off popular consumption media, the same "gender archetypes" are regularly employed in Korean entertainment.
As an atheist, I think the notion of Asian nations supposedly being less misogynistic because some of them are less intertwined with Abrahamic religions is not very reliable. I'd love to see the state of gender equality, for example, in Vietnam, a nation with a long Catholic tradition (about 7 or 8%? Still way over Japan or Taiwan). Especially given Vietnam's ideological commitment as a socialist revolutionary state (and the large part women played in the creation of that, in the military aspect), and the sort of extreme suspicion of misogyny ascribed to Catholicism at this board. I think I remember Atomic Ross speaking about it a bit during the last thread about the Catholic Church...
Do check out Rome. A rare combination of excellent (if frequently deliberately overdramatic) storytelling, excellent actors, and excellent art design.
Very good stuff. Two phenomenal actors from HBO's earlier film Conspiracy are in it as well.
The amusing thing about it being that it chooses to play down many traditionally stressed parts of the story or present them in a rather subdued manner, and then saves all of its energy to exquisitely ham up the Cleopatra/Antonius story at the end.
I'm sure if one wished, they could certainly adapt that series to the arguments in the OP. You are not going to find many "positive" values expressed in such a series, nor does it attempt to. It does actually show many Roman virtues, but its not highlighting them or presenting them as an example to be followed. The show in the original post, however, most likely attempts to, but its values are different than those of several decades later. Should you condemn an old cartoon for trying?
I found it absurd when Fukuyama said it, and I still do: the future of the world is not in being like the US.
I was going to say something nicer like 'I hope' but absurd is more honest. There are many other countries in the world with different cultures that are good places to live. I mean democracy and human rights, I absolutely want those to spread, but they have, and I want to be clear, nothing to do with the US.
That's not the mainstream US narrative, I know that, and to attack that belief seems combative, but it's the truth. Democracy didn't start in the US, nor did freedom, and the US is not their exemplar.
This thread started by talking about Japan, and there's been a lot of Orientalism, sweeping generalisations and Japanese cliches spouted. There's not much point addressing those people who think Japan is a cesspool of dysfunction and retrograde attitudes.
But despite the sexism and racism, one of the reasons I live in Japan is that, if it can overcome it's problems, it's one of the most powerful cultures that undermine the US's attempts at cultural hegemony, and I love that. To me, Japan shows that you can be rich, peaceful, democratic, culturally different and not white. I think that's very important.
Robotech is also notable because Macross reflects that Japan--and Taiwan and China--attach much less machismo to the Armed Forces, I think. Emphasis on think.
Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of machismo. But military forces are held in far less esteem in those countries, and with authoritarianism (as we're calling it in this thread), you frequently see the transfer of esteem from individual women to the state itself. In Taiwan, at least, the notion of women dying in defense of their nation--an idyllic use of military might--is considered far less repulsive than it is here.
Likewise, there's denigration of both high ranking and low ranking military personnel (especially low ranking). Robotech's bridge bunnies are considered important, but they're not particularly prestigious positions by any means nonetheless. To put it simply, in an American version of that, you'd likely have a male operator, because it'd only be acceptable for a male to hold that position, and the position would be well respected thanks to a more egalitarian military tradition.
In the Japanese version, it's a lowly position, and putting a woman in that spot (especially given Japan's mobilization during the last major war it was in) isn't considered taboo. Both in movies and television, shows about military forces coming out of Japan have far more women on screen overall than similar American shows (same for China as well, though I have less experience with that). They are not treated better by any means, in fact the opposite could be true, but they are far more common.
But I will admit that's only a personal supposition about that, influenced by my own very limited military experience.
I found it absurd when Fukuyama said it, and I still do: the future of the world is not in being like the US.
It's because it is absurd--even Fukuyama admitted it later on. "Every society on Earth can only 'evolve' to become American-style capitalist representative democracy. Ever. For all time," sound stupid no matter what.
But Fukuyama is an optimist. And so are many people who would otherwise dismiss the idea as absurd. In a world where coercion and violence are so clearly evident all the time, the idea, "You know, if those not-white people would just become more like us, they would stop killing each other over ethnic rivalries/religions disputes/etc." It's an idea that's easily taken to its extreme extension--don't just make them like us kind of, make them exactly like us, and reality will stop our efforts just short of it--because America, as a superpower, has a tradition of exporting and enforcing its values throughout the world very effectively, whether they be gender equality or corporate capitalism. The country has been doing it for years. Hell, Japan is a major product of that process. It is far more like the United States than, say, China, where US efforts at cultural hegemony were strangled in the cradle by the Civil War, and Taiwan, the product of pre-defeat Japanese cultural hegemony.
In a sense, compassion is a part of that Fukuyama-esque mindset. "They are slaughtering themselves. For what? If only they were more like us, more egalitarian, more...." Except, unfortunately, that sentence usually ends with "civilized". The second problem is that you can apply it to anywhere in the world--why limit it only to places where people are blowing each other up with bombs? Why not apply it to places where people aren't murdering each other, but oligarchs divide the country among themselves and spread disunity?
And the third, I guess, is that Americans, like other people, do occasionally shoot each other and blow themselves up with bombs. And sometimes our effort to make other places in the world leads to people adopting that custom as well (Guatamala comes to mind).
Before we get too far into 'misogyny is the province of the monotheists', Confucianism is pretty freaking misogynistic and didn't need a priests' help to get that way. No-one's got a monopoly on misogyny, its practically a universal pastime
Do check out Rome. A rare combination of excellent (if frequently deliberately overdramatic) storytelling, excellent actors, and excellent art design.
Very good stuff. Two phenomenal actors from HBO's earlier film Conspiracy are in it as well.
EDIT: Also, yeah, South Korea? Extremely Christian. Ridiculously Christian. More than a quarter Christian, making it the most successful faith, and way above states with a shared recent history and comparably industrial development (Japan and Taiwan) I cannot speak to the situation of misogyny in South Korea, since I only lived there for a few months at the longest, though if we're going off popular consumption media, the same "gender archetypes" are regularly employed in Korean entertainment.
As an atheist, I think the notion of Asian nations supposedly being less misogynistic because some of them are less intertwined with Abrahamic religions is not very reliable. I'd love to see the state of gender equality, for example, in Vietnam, a nation with a long Catholic tradition (about 7 or 8%? Still way over Japan or Taiwan). Especially given Vietnam's ideological commitment as a socialist revolutionary state (and the large part women played in the creation of that, in the military aspect), and the sort of extreme suspicion of misogyny ascribed to Catholicism at this board. I think I remember Atomic Ross speaking about it a bit during the last thread about the Catholic Church...
I've never been to Korea, but I've worked with hundreds of Koreans over several years, and being an EFL teacher, spent my time getting them to talk rather than listen to me talk. Gender in Korea is even more polarised than in Japan - men are often very macho, women are extremely quiet. You get fistfights in Korea, which I never ever see in Japan.
Many people tell me that the massive popularity of Korean TV drama in Japan is because it reminds older people of how Japan was when they were young, in the 50s and 60s. Just the other day I saw a show while channel-hopping where a young fashionable guy took a feisty chick over his knee and spanked her just like John Wayne did. And afterwards she'd learned her lesson (as opposed to having him arrested for assault).
Before we get too far into 'misogyny is the province of the monotheists', Confucianism is pretty freaking misogynistic and didn't need a priests' help to get that way. No-one's got a monopoly on misogyny, its practically a universal pastime
Absolutely. And that's why I hate it when both Japanese apologists for sexism and foreigners who look down on Japan see it as somehow integral to the culture. It's no more integral to the culture than it is in Sweden, Australia, Brazil or anywhere else. It's a human problem that hopefully one day will become history, and Japan needs to catch up.
Posts
So you see, Atomic Ross is providing a service with his ridiculous ignorance.
You know, in a debate thread.
I think that "religion" is just one tradition of many. The notion that there's a "natural order to things" doesn't necessarily need to be moored in any particular religious teachings.
Also, while China, Korea, Japan are all ostensibly "secular", they're also extremely superstitious in some respects, such as medicine, and ancestor/spirit worship. I don't know that this necessarily informs the misogyny there, but I think there's a lot more vague spirituality than the secular appearance would have you believe.
Also, Korea is ridiculously Christian.
(A) okay, so it is anecdotal. Just to keep that in mind.
(B) True. But the 'model minority' stereotype is pretty badly-reasoned, too. And Robotech is, well, not made by first-generation Asian Americans or their immigrant parents. We have every reason to believe that immigrants may be culturally different from both their source communities - selection effects here - and their host communities.
(C) Don't Asians adopt Westernized first named pretty often? Jewish people change their last names, East Asians change their first names? Or something? How prevalent such name changes are, I have no idea, but I am positively certain that the percentage among the East Asian diaspora who have adopted Westernized first names is much, much larger than present in East Asia.
Some ill-informed hypotheses:
- religious content may simply have jack all to do with social change; its logical content is never binding in real life; the nature of social conservatism is to argue that common cultural touchstones prohibit change. The motivators of such change may lie elsewhere, with religion or the natural order invoked solely as a convenient excuse - gender ratios and relative economic stability being obvious candidates. This is to an extent self-reinforcing, of course.
- China and Korea have oscillated between periods of authoritarianism and revolution since WWII; political liberalization in Korea is relatively recent. Japan has sat through one-party government since 1955 to 2009. None of this suggests an environment conducive to bottom-up organizing for women's rights; the mob, if it exists at all, is busy yelling about other issues.
It is worth noting that there was a large degree of social change prior, even under the constant slow burn of organized military exchanges up until the end of WWII. Both the Communists and the Nationalists in China were relatively progressive on gender, at least compared to their predecessor governments. Likewise comparing pre-Restoration and Meiji Japan, and even prewar and postwar Japan. This did tend to be top-down social change, though, imposed from Westernized political bureaucrats or revolutionaries from above.
That said, I see a lot of broad generalizations here about Asian countries and it gets pretty tiring when Westerners constantly paint the East (or the Middle East or Africa or the Smurfs or whoever else is the "enemy" flavor of the month) as being overly misogynistic and oppressive toward women. I don't know, there's more than a hint of liberal elitism which seems to claim that the West must somehow punish these foreigners and "rescue" their women from their evil barbaric ways (wars and invasions have started over less).
I mean, Western culture is just as patriarchal and misogynistic in its portrayal of women in the media (just look at Hollywood). And it's not just limited to the media, but things like politics and industries like technology and engineering. I could bring up Europeans' seeming obsession to ban the burqa in public, for instance. And just how many women pastors do you see giving Church services in America? Women sports and female athletes? The WNBA? Puh-leeze.
And, as someone else mentioned, even nerds and geeks aren't immune to misogyny in the grand eternal quest to "rape and pwn bitches" or online memes of telling women/rivals to "get back in the kitchen and make me a sammich."
@ Atomic Ross
Seriously, dude? Oh, you're from Texas. I could make some asinine generalizations about Texans pulled from just my anecdotal and personal experience but that would make me look pretty ignorant and small-minded, yes?
Evidence that japan at least is misogynistic was provided earlier in the thread.
Well fascism isn't only about obedience, that's the view that we've gotten through American culture because we like to think that as individualists we can't ever have been fascistic. In this case I think that the Catholic criticism of fascism (specifically Milosz) gives a pretty good idea of how fascistic ideas came about. Now this is only one theory, and it's very clearly seen through a Catholic lens, but Milosz' theory was that the road to fascism was that--
A) The idea that persons, in isolation, are moral. Robinson Crusoe discovered God etc, on an island, and created this idea that 'if I was alone and didn't have to deal with all these assholes, life would be great'
This idea alone isn't that bad, but when combined with
combine these ideas, that the One is a force of good and that the Many are a force of evil, and you get
C) The idea that any action where the One exerts his/her will over the Many is a good thing. You can see this in earlier books, like the Red and the Black, where a guy pretends to be a priest so that he can become a Superbeing like Napoleon.
Therefore, fascism isn't only about obedience and traditionalism. It's both individualist, in fact it actually 'celebrates' individualism more than most other ideologies, but it's individualist because it says that the Individual is great while People in general are total sheeple. You can see this in a lot of existentialism and in the people who decide that they're existentialists, but you see this behavior in...a lot of people.
I saw. As another person has stated, change takes time and progress doesn't just happen overnight. I still assert that I sometimes question why some folks like to target Asian countries as being overly misogynistic and patriarchal, and by extension, painting Asian males as horrible women-beating oppressors. I've seen similar discussions in regards to Muslims as well. Agendas, and all that.
I realize it's a red herring to try to divert the discussion toward the West and how patriarchal and misogynistic it can be as well, but it's a topic that's worth talking about too, and one that doesn't exist in a vacuum in this day of age of instant media, global travel, and cross culturalization.
More 'what about the objectification of men?'.
I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet.
How do you guys feel about Suckerpunch? I think that Suckerpunch is, in some ways, a good representation of the way that Western media has tried to use the idea of feminism and women empowerment in order to get viewers, but without examining the deeper ramifications of female empowerment.
Except the West is not as bad. That's the whole point. Japan is close to the bottom compared to other developed countries.
This is a problem.
Japan is not some third-world failed state were it might be unavoidable. Japan has been an economically and politically developed nation for decades.
I blame Tomb Raider and its ilk (Ultraviolet, the Resident Evil movies, etc.). It (barely) masquerades as "girl power" while objectifying women as little more than T&A but with guns, swords, and 'tude. It gets the fanboys salivatin', amirite?
But Japan and the USA is not the same. We (Americans) bombed the crap out of their country during WWII, occupied them, built them back up economically but with a pretty schizophrenic take on progressive issues (we can thank MacArthur for that). Old clashing with the new, and all that. Japan didn't have the same suffrage movement, or a Civil Rights movement that overtook the entire country like it did in America (because Japan has a largely homogenized population), and even then, those progressive changes took time to enforce before becoming ingrained and "normalized" in the West.
This is not an excuse, however, merely what I see is the cause for the relatively slow progress when it comes to women rights and the treatment of immigrants in Japan. Korea is in a similar situation, at least with the South. America came in after the war and institutionalized a lot of changes for the better, but some traditions can clash. China, having been humiliated by Japan and Western colonial powers in the past, is cautious to adopt Western polices and customs but it's making some progress especially now that it's the largest economy in the world and has to deal with the West more and more.
I just take issue with how some are framing the West as being the "enlightened" civilization and the rest of the world as savage and barbaric, at least in the way of treating their women, and that we somehow must force our ideals and customs upon other nations whether they like it or not. As I've said, conflicts (wars, invasions, colonialism, etc.) have started over less.
Again, Mexicans do have historic roots in Europe.
It also helps that they are right next door.
Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
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Oh cmon, do you really want to get into "and you hang your negroes" style rhetoric?
If entertainment is actively promoting negative values, watching it knowingly is of no harm, but paying money for it certainly is.
You are probably putting more intellectual effort into Fascism than Mussolini himself did.
Fascism loves the trappings of tradition. But Fascism was never the Imperial Rome Mussolini pretended it was. Fascism is a cult of personality, whereas to the Romans, the office of Emperor was far more holy than the person of Emperor.
As you suggest, it is far more of an individualist and modernist ideology.
The most interesting thing about Tomb raider is that it very nearly wasn't.
Originally the character design was male (indiana jones ripoff to the max), and then they had a quick meeting where they determined this would cause some serious copyright problems.
So they made the character female. And then fucked up the model in such a way that the tits were huge (the original concept art didn't have the monster knockers).
The story of what the original designers intended that character to be and how each iteration ended up playing the various elements is actually pretty interesting. But I don't think authorial intent was the problem with Tomb Raider certainly - it was more generalised industry pressure took it further and further in the wrong direction. Depending on your position you might see the upcoming reboot as either a good or a bad thing. Her breasts have certainly shrunk, but then again they've been shrinking for 3 games now.
I'm just summarizing Milosz. The guy did have a lot of time to think about fascism, seeing as he was living in occupied Poland.
a "hotbed", if you will
This is an interesting progression of thought--I say this a Taiwanese male. Not Taiwanese-American, as I did not arrive in America until I'd already held American citizenship for almost 18 years. As such, I belong to a group of which approximately ~85% of which were educated and acculturated by the White Terror, or the aftermath of the White Terror, as the victims or the descendants of the victims. The other ~15% being Chinese, and thus, not effected the same way. Fascism...or maybe Leninism-turned-fascism-lite...cannot be good for overcoming misogyny, right? And hell, if I spent 2 or 3 years in the army like my uncle did, instead of 14 months, I'd probably have turned into the sort of woman-hater I'm shocked he isn't--and I'd probably hate the Chinese as well.
I can think of the misogyny that exists in my own culture, pretty easily (with some of that being inherited from Japan, and the rest from other sources). And I'd like to see that overcome--but this presents the issue: is there only one direction to move in to practically overcome, for example, misogyny?
I'm not enough of a sociologist to answer that, but the overwhelming answer seems to be "Hell yes." It's sort of the Fukuyama-esque expectation of "evolving society"--you see, there's a road, and while the road is pretty wide at the beginning, it's as narrow as length of thread at the end, and that end is a democratic, moderately-Keynesian capitalist society where everyone behaves like upper middle-class white people. So the Chinese will stop eating their smelly food, and the Japanese will stop idealizing their stay-at-home mothers, and the Taiwanese will stop training their young men to hate the only women they see regularly for a year or so during the least pleasant time in their life, in the officer corps. And the smelly food and stay-at-home moms. Probably should take away all the rifles and machine guns we're giving to the women-haters in their barracks, too.
The counter-argument, of course, is something like--at the risk of straw-manning it--that cultural flexibility allows for things like misogyny, obviously, but more extremely, female genital mutilation. I mention that because, in a past thread, that was literally the example brought up. And, to be fair, if all cultures did become American, that would presumably put an end to that very coercive and painful custom. You'd be really hard pressed to defend something like genital mutilation for...either gender.
But it does seem to end with a general, "They need to become more like us Americans." Maybe that isn't necessarily a bad thing, though when I think of certain types of media originating in America, I can understand the reluctance that might appear. Forget Star Trek and its short skirts and green women --that's appreciated as the product of a time much earlier. Since I've come to the US, I come to view the overwhelming majority of American comic books are totally worthless, and little more than excuses to portray women with breasts the size of bowling balls in brightly colored spandex, joining in their 'roided-up male [strike]chaperons[/strike] counterparts in engaging in crude and, at times, vaguely-fascist patriotic vigilante justice, pummeling evil out of society like they're Italian blackshirts at a May Day parade, and the only way to for the bold individual to save the world from the idiot mob is to bash their teeth out the back of their heads.
Not all of it, but a good 90%, easy. Now that's entertainment.
Tomb Raider is also...'strange' (in a good way?)...in that it's not really a successful play of the whole "faux girl power" formula that straight, when you consider that there's a fairly consistent portrayal of the title character as a near-sociopath--or rather, exhibiting behavior closely resembling psychopathy. It's a complaint of "Well, she'd be a great role model if she wasn't parading around with those giant knockers in short-shorts and a tank top," with the fundamental failing of, "What kind of role model barely expresses human expression while mowing down every other human being in sight as violently as possible, without even a hint of remorse? And the tits and the shorts are the problem? What about those men she shot to death while grinning like a maniac over some ancient bit of jewelry?"
Don't get be wrong, this is a trait that is in no way limited to Tomb Raider. And I love the games, they're probably among my favorite adventure games of all time. But it's not like Lara is fighting German Nazis or genocide-commiting aliens or evil faux-communist Russians invading American for the nineteenth time--in other words, subjects of moral inferiority and/or designated acceptable for massacre under the guise of warfare. She's murdering people who have more or less the same moral standing she has for the most part, and in droves.
They are one and the same, the intellectual left and the mainstream. Now, I know this is D&D, and you'll have the original poster here and others analyzing media written by fellow leftists for traces of heresy and/or not being leftist enough. That's why I love you folks.
Now, I don't generally watch cartoons from the 80s, but I have a feeling that the show the OP is referring to was heavily pushing what would be considered progressive back then. Probably veiled metaphors for race relations, or the like, as that was a more topical issue at the time. If not, well, it is unusual.
Its amusing to think that progressive crusaders 20 (well, I guess closer to 30) years later are lambasting the media of the past for its counter-revolutionary views. The original poster being offended because it portrays women behaving in ways that do not coincide with the way he thinks women should behave.
You know those crazy Maoist professors you only see on university campuses occasionally, or in Trotskyite cells? They basically mainstream left in South America, East Asia, parts of Europe. Which is not to say there are lots of leftists in, say, Japan or Taiwan, there aren't (they all got killed in Taiwan, dunno about Japan), but those there are are very much left if they even come close to calling themselves "leftists".
... yeah, the OP was originally criticizing a given media exported from Japan, and then somewhere it was loosely argued to be representative of Japanese cultural flaws in some way - if we were this cavalier in analysis, someone outside the US would be similarly horrified. Perhaps about other things. There is a long-standing fascination with the American media fascination with weapons and violence, come to think of it.
I could go on and try to assist you by providing information in this matter, but I've found that people who approach critical thought from the stance you seem to be taking are usually fairly close minded and heavily under the influence of confirmation bias.
It's just a very bizarre(and false) notion to consider mainstream western culture to be under a form of strong intellectual influence. Especially American mainstream media.
You seem to be mis characterizing the OP's initial thoughts regarding female portrayal in the media he used as an example. From what I can see, he isn't suggesting any form of 'should' in regards to how a female should behave. More so that the show he described is depicting women as being held to a certain tradition of gender normalization.
I guess that is just my love of hyperbole getting the better of me. Fringe was probably the wrong adjective to use.
Ironically, I generally like HBO, because it is quality. Their series generally have something to say, sure. The commentaries, for example on Rome, explain their desire to portray Roman ethics as completely distinct from Christian (and thus, secular-modern) as well as briefly commenting on the generally negative depiction of Brutus and the republican or optimate faction. Do I fully agree with these stances? No, and I can see why they wish to portray as they do. But I can certainly still appreciate the effort that went into the creation, nothing about it offends me. I am getting somewhat off topic, though.
Touche.
I cannot quite understand how someone would not see the connection with media and leftist thought, though. One follows the other. I was watching Barnie Miller not that long ago, and was basically checking off the (mostly still, to this day) progressive issues as they appeared. They all pop up. Issues of race, homosexuality, gender roles. I'm sure someone here can go back and watch that old show and find something to be offended by.
That sort of show is more of a vanguard, of course, it doesn't not reflect how the majority of programming of its time portrays things, but it is certainly mainstream.
If you think I believe that a shadowy cabal of ivory tower intellectuals are dictating the direction of entertainment media, or something, of course not.
You probably already know this, Ronya, yourself, but since "anti-Americanism" is kind of a flash-word or whatever in discussions of nations, it should be noted aloud that the CP of Japan's anti-US sentiment is radically different than the tradition of anti-US sentiment in Japan, or for that matter, many places with perceptible anti-US sentiment (lots of places, to be fair, the US is the military world superpower). It stems from an anti-capitalist basis (duh) and uniformed opposition to the US-Japanese security agreement (also somewhat unique) and American troops stationed in Japan, though it defends Article 9 (prohibiting acts of war by the state).
I meant more "I don't think Japan killed the leftists the country had left after the Second World War like they did in Taiwan." I guess they got tired or disillusioned or whatever.
The long held constant of American entertainment that violence does, in fact, make right, does in fact disturb some people. I know my extended family was disturbed about it when I first came to the United States (they still are, though I guess they're happy I didn't become a caricature of that fact after six years). It's made all the more disturbing by the fact that the American superpower exists, and is not a sedentary establishment. I hate to make this sort of equivalency, but consider that people profess to be disturbed by oversexed women in Japanese manga not only because of that, but because misogyny clearly exists (to them) in actual Japan. American comic books could be goddamn disturbing if you were to consider America has a long tradition of using force--military force, economic force--to force other peoples to behave in an preferred manner. Other countries do it as well, but those countries don't churn out huge quantities of movies, comic books, and television series glorifying uses of force on a personal level.
I'm quite curious about this! But sadly I haven't watched Rome or those Spartacus shows so yeah, there's nowhere to go here :P
Very good stuff. Two phenomenal actors from HBO's earlier film Conspiracy are in it as well.
EDIT: Also, yeah, South Korea? Extremely Christian. Ridiculously Christian. More than a quarter Christian, making it the most successful faith, and way above states with a shared recent history and comparably industrial development (Japan and Taiwan) I cannot speak to the situation of misogyny in South Korea, since I only lived there for a few months at the longest, though if we're going off popular consumption media, the same "gender archetypes" are regularly employed in Korean entertainment.
As an atheist, I think the notion of Asian nations supposedly being less misogynistic because some of them are less intertwined with Abrahamic religions is not very reliable. I'd love to see the state of gender equality, for example, in Vietnam, a nation with a long Catholic tradition (about 7 or 8%? Still way over Japan or Taiwan). Especially given Vietnam's ideological commitment as a socialist revolutionary state (and the large part women played in the creation of that, in the military aspect), and the sort of extreme suspicion of misogyny ascribed to Catholicism at this board. I think I remember Atomic Ross speaking about it a bit during the last thread about the Catholic Church...
The amusing thing about it being that it chooses to play down many traditionally stressed parts of the story or present them in a rather subdued manner, and then saves all of its energy to exquisitely ham up the Cleopatra/Antonius story at the end.
I'm sure if one wished, they could certainly adapt that series to the arguments in the OP. You are not going to find many "positive" values expressed in such a series, nor does it attempt to. It does actually show many Roman virtues, but its not highlighting them or presenting them as an example to be followed. The show in the original post, however, most likely attempts to, but its values are different than those of several decades later. Should you condemn an old cartoon for trying?
I cannot speak for misogyny, but as for gender roles, South Korea is still extremely traditional.
I was going to say something nicer like 'I hope' but absurd is more honest. There are many other countries in the world with different cultures that are good places to live. I mean democracy and human rights, I absolutely want those to spread, but they have, and I want to be clear, nothing to do with the US.
That's not the mainstream US narrative, I know that, and to attack that belief seems combative, but it's the truth. Democracy didn't start in the US, nor did freedom, and the US is not their exemplar.
This thread started by talking about Japan, and there's been a lot of Orientalism, sweeping generalisations and Japanese cliches spouted. There's not much point addressing those people who think Japan is a cesspool of dysfunction and retrograde attitudes.
But despite the sexism and racism, one of the reasons I live in Japan is that, if it can overcome it's problems, it's one of the most powerful cultures that undermine the US's attempts at cultural hegemony, and I love that. To me, Japan shows that you can be rich, peaceful, democratic, culturally different and not white. I think that's very important.
Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of machismo. But military forces are held in far less esteem in those countries, and with authoritarianism (as we're calling it in this thread), you frequently see the transfer of esteem from individual women to the state itself. In Taiwan, at least, the notion of women dying in defense of their nation--an idyllic use of military might--is considered far less repulsive than it is here.
Likewise, there's denigration of both high ranking and low ranking military personnel (especially low ranking). Robotech's bridge bunnies are considered important, but they're not particularly prestigious positions by any means nonetheless. To put it simply, in an American version of that, you'd likely have a male operator, because it'd only be acceptable for a male to hold that position, and the position would be well respected thanks to a more egalitarian military tradition.
In the Japanese version, it's a lowly position, and putting a woman in that spot (especially given Japan's mobilization during the last major war it was in) isn't considered taboo. Both in movies and television, shows about military forces coming out of Japan have far more women on screen overall than similar American shows (same for China as well, though I have less experience with that). They are not treated better by any means, in fact the opposite could be true, but they are far more common.
But I will admit that's only a personal supposition about that, influenced by my own very limited military experience.
It's because it is absurd--even Fukuyama admitted it later on. "Every society on Earth can only 'evolve' to become American-style capitalist representative democracy. Ever. For all time," sound stupid no matter what.
But Fukuyama is an optimist. And so are many people who would otherwise dismiss the idea as absurd. In a world where coercion and violence are so clearly evident all the time, the idea, "You know, if those not-white people would just become more like us, they would stop killing each other over ethnic rivalries/religions disputes/etc." It's an idea that's easily taken to its extreme extension--don't just make them like us kind of, make them exactly like us, and reality will stop our efforts just short of it--because America, as a superpower, has a tradition of exporting and enforcing its values throughout the world very effectively, whether they be gender equality or corporate capitalism. The country has been doing it for years. Hell, Japan is a major product of that process. It is far more like the United States than, say, China, where US efforts at cultural hegemony were strangled in the cradle by the Civil War, and Taiwan, the product of pre-defeat Japanese cultural hegemony.
In a sense, compassion is a part of that Fukuyama-esque mindset. "They are slaughtering themselves. For what? If only they were more like us, more egalitarian, more...." Except, unfortunately, that sentence usually ends with "civilized". The second problem is that you can apply it to anywhere in the world--why limit it only to places where people are blowing each other up with bombs? Why not apply it to places where people aren't murdering each other, but oligarchs divide the country among themselves and spread disunity?
And the third, I guess, is that Americans, like other people, do occasionally shoot each other and blow themselves up with bombs. And sometimes our effort to make other places in the world leads to people adopting that custom as well (Guatamala comes to mind).
I've never been to Korea, but I've worked with hundreds of Koreans over several years, and being an EFL teacher, spent my time getting them to talk rather than listen to me talk. Gender in Korea is even more polarised than in Japan - men are often very macho, women are extremely quiet. You get fistfights in Korea, which I never ever see in Japan.
Many people tell me that the massive popularity of Korean TV drama in Japan is because it reminds older people of how Japan was when they were young, in the 50s and 60s. Just the other day I saw a show while channel-hopping where a young fashionable guy took a feisty chick over his knee and spanked her just like John Wayne did. And afterwards she'd learned her lesson (as opposed to having him arrested for assault).
Absolutely. And that's why I hate it when both Japanese apologists for sexism and foreigners who look down on Japan see it as somehow integral to the culture. It's no more integral to the culture than it is in Sweden, Australia, Brazil or anywhere else. It's a human problem that hopefully one day will become history, and Japan needs to catch up.