So we're talking about how MGS's writing isn't that great now? Last time I tried to do that, I got into a three page argument and got told I'm an idiot for expecting believable dialogue out of a game like MGS.
Make up your minds.
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GoslingLooking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered Userregular
edited February 2007
Earlier on there was a comment about how one mark of a good game story is if they can foreshadow well enough to make a second playthrough interesting. This is one reason I like BG&E so much- things you didn't even notice in Round 1 jump right out at you in Round 2. For example...
early on, after Jade reads the M-Disk from Hahn telling her to go to Black Isle, Pey'j barely manages to stammer out 'it smells like a trap, it's too dangerous.' Round 1, you barely notice it- looks like just one more line tossed in to tie things together. But in Round 2, after you've seen how everything plays out, it becomes clear as to what was happening there- with Pey'j in Iris, separated from the rest of the local bureau, clearly someone didn't tell him they were going to recruit Jade, and Pey'j doesn't exactly want Jade finding out she's half-Domz, so he makes a desperate on-the-spot attempt to stop the entire story in its tracks before she finds anything out.
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
Final Fantasy Tactics' story was a happy one, just not for everyone, and it wasn't the most obvious for the "heroes".
Ramza even surviving after the Church labelled him a heretic was good enough, I think. As for Olan being burned at the stake, I can't remember too many examples of in game mechanics affecting the story line. Also, Delita got what he wanted; but his desire shifted as he gained more power.
Honestly, I could release an essay about the Tactics storyline; it is my favorite game, period.
Okay, so I figured I would actually contribute. No one ever seem to mention a game I feel deserves a lot more mention than at least two of the games that I've seen in this thread a lot.
And that would be KOTOR2.
It is a buggy unfinished pseudo-mess of a game, but I don't feel that that at all detracts from its merits. Planescape: Torment was unfinished as well, as you may or may not know, though it was released in a much more finished state. Regardless, they were made by the same people, and it really does show.
People like to mention KOTOR in threads such as this one, but I feel that KOTOR2 stands head and shoulders above its prequel game in terms of writing, but definately not technical accomplishment.
First off, the characters are better done. They are all deeper and better written. Their pasts, their motivations, their responses to situations. They're more involved, less shallow, and less archetypal than something you might find in KOTOR. You don't have the devout Jedi that is, in fact, weak and falls to the dark side. It's missing the Jedi that became a Jedi because they met a Jedi once and fell in love with the idea. There is no stoic, brave soldier that always stands by your side. Nor do you have the company of a young and stubborn rogue.
To me, the villains truly stood out quite well in comparison to KOTOR's. They are mostly evil, yes. That's the nature of the Dark Side. Darth Nihilus was a shallow character that was barely there, and Darth Sion was a small presence in the game. However, there is quite a lot to Sion. Play as a female character and more of his character comes out. And I'll refrain from spoiling anything else.
But it really is amazing what they did with the story while most of the game lacks a clear villain. You're not on a quest to stop some great evil. Your purpose is not purely selfish, but it largely is. You are finding these Jedi at the insistence of Atris, but a lot of the interest you have in them is because they are the only ones that can answer a single question: What happened to me?
It's not truly a story of good versus evil and there is no powerful Sith waiting for you aboard a gigantic super weapon. It truly is about the PC.
There are no great existential questions to be answered or any deep morals to be learned, but what's there and finished and in the game, I found sometimes touching, sometimes depressing, and sometimes plain sad. There is a twist, but in the end, I never felt like it was placed in order to shock me, but rather to thrust the story forward and further develop my character and the ones closest to her.
These are things few games have been able to accomplish, I think. Torment? Yes, but Torment is a rare example of a game tackling more than what others would dare.
I don't have the game, but I'm really interested in this big plot twist in Jade Empire someone was talking about earlier. Could anybody be so kind to put it in a spoiler for me so I can read it? Thanks.
I don't have the game, but I'm really interested in this big plot twist in Jade Empire someone was talking about earlier. Could anybody be so kind to put it in a spoiler for me so I can read it? Thanks.
Are they talking about
Your teacher actually being a huge bad-ass that betrays you from like the moment he took you in?
The game allows you to fight and combat evil and show your ability to save the day, but then at times it wrestles control away from you in order to show tragic events.
This is where (SotC spoiler)
Shadow of the Colossus wins. You try to hold on, but you just can't make it.
That wasn't what got to me. It was the fact that you started plane-hopping, somehow ending up in the exact spots you needed to in order to push the plot along. The game lost all sense of subtlety and ferried you from one plot point to the next. It was sloppy and too convenient and it laid bare what the devs had to do, whether it was because of time constraints or otherwise.
I'll pick it up again just to say I finished it. I always do.
You've dramatically missed the point, and will carry on doing so until you get to the end. It's not sloppy designing at all- it's entirely and carefully delibrate.
You've dramatically missed the point, and will carry on doing so until you get to the end. It's not sloppy designing at all- it's entirely and carefully delibrate.
Interesting. I don't think I'm far from the end, so I'll see about finishing it soon. I do remember hating the volume of combat, though. They should have just scrapped all that and stuck to what they're good at. The story. The Sensorium, or whatever you call it, was awesome.
You've dramatically missed the point, and will carry on doing so until you get to the end. It's not sloppy designing at all- it's entirely and carefully delibrate.
Interesting. I don't think I'm far from the end, so I'll see about finishing it soon. I do remember hating the volume of combat, though. They should have just scrapped all that and stuck to what they're good at. The story. The Sensorium, or whatever you call it, was awesome.
The combat mechanics are, to my mind, the only major weakness in Torment. They just... lack balance and pacing of any kind, particularly compared to something like Baldur's Gate 2.
It's a good thing you're immortal, really.
Oh, and one thing that should be known- (Gameplay, not plot spoilers)
get to the end with an Intelligence or Wisdom of 24, if you can. It makes... certain options availible
Can I be allowed this escape into a world with clearly-defined good and evil? Of Heroes and Villains? Of Princesses in need of saving? (Or Princes, too, Ms. Steinem) Or must it too, also succumb to the "depth" of our modern literature and movies, rife with symbol and politick, with agenda and pretention?
Yeah, God knows we don't have enough unreal, escapist fantasy video games on the market. It's a veritable glut of realistic, culturally relevant interactive experiences, i tells ya.
Ehhh, maybe I just feel that way because it always seems like the "gray area" ones get respected more in the reviewer/forum crowd.
Deguello on
WTF lady?! Does it sound like I'm ordering a fucking Pizza?!
Can I be allowed this escape into a world with clearly-defined good and evil? Of Heroes and Villains? Of Princesses in need of saving? (Or Princes, too, Ms. Steinem) Or must it too, also succumb to the "depth" of our modern literature and movies, rife with symbol and politick, with agenda and pretention?
Yeah, God knows we don't have enough unreal, escapist fantasy video games on the market. It's a veritable glut of realistic, culturally relevant interactive experiences, i tells ya.
Ehhh, maybe I just feel that way because it always seems like the "gray area" ones get respected more in the reviewer/forum crowd.
I think I agree. I had always grown up thinking melodrama was bullshit crapped out by people who don't know what they're doing, but now I appreciate it a lot more, and in fact kind of prefer it to more nuanced drama.
If anything, nuance itself can be a tool wielded by hacks just as easily as melodrama, and just because the villian has more in common with Sephiroth than Bowser, that doesn't elevate the story necessarily. It's like expecting greater respect because your hero "HAS A DARK PAST" or your villian "IS NOT SO DIFFERENT FROM YOU OR ME", which is just as silly as expecting respect because your Western is "IN SPACE".
Posts
Make up your minds.
Honestly, I could release an essay about the Tactics storyline; it is my favorite game, period.
And that would be KOTOR2.
It is a buggy unfinished pseudo-mess of a game, but I don't feel that that at all detracts from its merits. Planescape: Torment was unfinished as well, as you may or may not know, though it was released in a much more finished state. Regardless, they were made by the same people, and it really does show.
People like to mention KOTOR in threads such as this one, but I feel that KOTOR2 stands head and shoulders above its prequel game in terms of writing, but definately not technical accomplishment.
First off, the characters are better done. They are all deeper and better written. Their pasts, their motivations, their responses to situations. They're more involved, less shallow, and less archetypal than something you might find in KOTOR. You don't have the devout Jedi that is, in fact, weak and falls to the dark side. It's missing the Jedi that became a Jedi because they met a Jedi once and fell in love with the idea. There is no stoic, brave soldier that always stands by your side. Nor do you have the company of a young and stubborn rogue.
To me, the villains truly stood out quite well in comparison to KOTOR's. They are mostly evil, yes. That's the nature of the Dark Side. Darth Nihilus was a shallow character that was barely there, and Darth Sion was a small presence in the game. However, there is quite a lot to Sion. Play as a female character and more of his character comes out. And I'll refrain from spoiling anything else.
But it really is amazing what they did with the story while most of the game lacks a clear villain. You're not on a quest to stop some great evil. Your purpose is not purely selfish, but it largely is. You are finding these Jedi at the insistence of Atris, but a lot of the interest you have in them is because they are the only ones that can answer a single question: What happened to me?
It's not truly a story of good versus evil and there is no powerful Sith waiting for you aboard a gigantic super weapon. It truly is about the PC.
There are no great existential questions to be answered or any deep morals to be learned, but what's there and finished and in the game, I found sometimes touching, sometimes depressing, and sometimes plain sad. There is a twist, but in the end, I never felt like it was placed in order to shock me, but rather to thrust the story forward and further develop my character and the ones closest to her.
These are things few games have been able to accomplish, I think. Torment? Yes, but Torment is a rare example of a game tackling more than what others would dare.
Are they talking about
Cause I thought that was kinda obvious.
The final confrontation, the last Curst part, the short but awesome final cutscene...
That game was really absurdly wonderful.
what can change the nature of a man?
And MGS2's end part was just fucking crap. I understood it... but it sucks. The characters suck. The weird enemies suck. 1 and 3 are so much better.
This is where (SotC spoiler)
You've dramatically missed the point, and will carry on doing so until you get to the end. It's not sloppy designing at all- it's entirely and carefully delibrate.
Interesting. I don't think I'm far from the end, so I'll see about finishing it soon. I do remember hating the volume of combat, though. They should have just scrapped all that and stuck to what they're good at. The story. The Sensorium, or whatever you call it, was awesome.
The combat mechanics are, to my mind, the only major weakness in Torment. They just... lack balance and pacing of any kind, particularly compared to something like Baldur's Gate 2.
It's a good thing you're immortal, really.
Oh, and one thing that should be known- (Gameplay, not plot spoilers)
Ehhh, maybe I just feel that way because it always seems like the "gray area" ones get respected more in the reviewer/forum crowd.
The writing will be glorious!
If anything, nuance itself can be a tool wielded by hacks just as easily as melodrama, and just because the villian has more in common with Sephiroth than Bowser, that doesn't elevate the story necessarily. It's like expecting greater respect because your hero "HAS A DARK PAST" or your villian "IS NOT SO DIFFERENT FROM YOU OR ME", which is just as silly as expecting respect because your Western is "IN SPACE".
i'm talking stonking, here