AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
No, no, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression should've been solved and we should be in a New Liberal Paradise that Obama never promised.
No, no, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression should've been solved and we should be in a New Liberal Paradise that Obama never promised.
He promised some neat stuff that hasn't passed, but that's mostly the Senate's fault.
I want my infrastructure bank.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
There is no degree you can get that will automatically make you rich. \
It's about work, luck, and who you know.
I absolutely agree with you. Additionally even being in the top 90% of income earners doesn't make you rich. You've still got a mortgage and a car payment and are worried about losing your job.
Obama is 97% Bush? Are you counting facts like being carbon-based lifeforms? Just because you can cherry pick a few things that look similar doesn't mean on a broad level that they have the same policies.
Over and over again the same battle. Their positions on the economy, their foreign policy virtually identical. Obama is called a socialist appeaser but his foreign policy is following the bush time table, his economic policy is a continuation of the bush stimulus and tax cuts, with a side of extra tax cuts. Their social policy is different BFD.
I get really tired of people (especially liberals) with the attitude here that's bolded. Social issues to me, are in fact a *very* BFD. I will continue voting for whatever candidate has the more progressive policy, however marginal that may be. So economic issues are your first priority when evaluating politics? Good for you. But just because you don't care as much proportionally about social issues doesn't mean people are fooling themselves when they see a difference between democrats and republicans.
Which is pretty ridiculous. Because the social issues are tiny. 12 Million additional Americans out of work and the population has gotten any smaller. But DOMA isnt being challenged in the courts. Better hope the GLBT community has jobs. DADT redacted, but the wars over seas continue to be prosecuted according to the Bush doctrine and expanded to include Libya, Yemen, Somalia and no option is off the table for Iran. No change in the War on Drugs (in fact federal prosecutions of medical marijuana have increased), 1/3 African American men are still going to go to prison, but opps I ran out of social issue issues. The reasons the social issues are BFD is because the ones the administration is focusing on are tiny.
All of which would not only still exist and would possibly become worse if conservatives got their way, simply because their worldview actively opposes efforts to fix them. Liberals tend to be ineffectual, and it's infuriating. There's a BFD for you. I'll take someone who talks the talk but can't figure out how to walk the walk over someone who would destroy what little progress has been made and actively block further progress given the chance.
You think my focus on the differences between the parties social policies is "ridiculous"? I think you're ridiculous for blowing them off. A significant portion of the conservative population *literally* thinks being Gay should be criminalized and that birth control is evil. To write that off as "BFD" is seriously fucking ridiculous. Yes, the administration hasn't done close to what I would consider enough with social issues, but the alternative is actively working to push us back to the middle ages. When faced with that other option, I simply will never feel bad about voting for whoever the more progressive option is, like I said earlier, however marginal that may be.
It's not Obama against the world. Or Obama as depicted on fox news vs Obama the man. Or Obama as he orates vs what he does.
It is the Policies as enacted by one president vs the Policies as enacted by another President.
Edit: The Difference in Social Policies Between Obama and Bush if you really look at them are not huge, and they are the biggest differences.
It makes no sense to compare Obama to Rush or Bill'O or Pat Robinson or whoever.
At the very least I am very clearly not doing so. IDK maybe some else is, that would be stupid.
So hypothetically, if Rick Santorum becomes the nominee for the Republicans, you're going to see it as basically a wash, social-policy wise? Santorum is only minimally worse in that area than Bush was, and Obama is only minimally better, right? You really feel comfortable giving that man the chance to act on those views from the highest office in our country? Who knows, maybe we'd get lucky and he (or any other conservative like him) would just sit on his ass and not try and push their conservative social agenda forward once they got elected, but I intend to do what I can to make sure they don't get the chance.
The point is that the views held by the far-right on social issues have become so odious, that I find myself with no other choice than to do everything I can to limit the opportunity they have to influence our society. Sometimes (well, frequently) that comes in the form of voting for a democrat.
edit: and I'm sick of more economically-minded liberals trying to get me to feel bad about that.
Shando on
your troll just berserked on us.
0
Options
Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
A thought, on the continuation of the Bush Timelines for ending the War in Iraq....
if it's not broken, why break it?
Seriously, the timeline was agreed to by the Previous administration, the Iraqis wanted it that way, and it worked out fine, relatively. The Iraq war as we knew it for 8+ years is over. In the well-mannered, precise way that it was decided to end. By the parties involved. It wasn't broken, it wasn't necessarily 'bad'. So why break it on principle? that's just ridiculous.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
100k+ Upper Class
50-100k Middle Class
30-50k Poor
<30k Poverty
Now, depending on your personal debt level and how much you spend, where you live, etc. your mileage may vary.
What's the definition of poverty these days? I know several families (Read, 3+ people) that live off less than 30k in cities and I'd call them poor, not in poverty.
The technical term is working class, but since everybody is working these days its kinda moot.
I would however say that people claiming that CoL can knock you down a level tend to forget that how and where you live your life is a matter of choice. Having 4 kids or a big house in a good area cost a lot of money, but its your choice to live that way. Of course you are going to have less money left over, you spent it!
I respectfully Disagree, if everyone were working that would be a much different problem. At the very least 12 Million Less Americans are working than were working in 2008. And I have no reason to believe there are less Americans now than there were in 2008.
Working class Is a reference to the olden days of yore. Back in the day only the poorest of the poor worked for wages. The Middle class own their own farms or small businesses/shops. Working for a wage was a sign you where a "wage slave" beholden to another.
As for being rich meant not working for a living. Living of rents, accepting honorariums or living of returns of investments was acceptable. Actually working for a wage? No.
This was the way society saw things right up until 1920 and is still a significant part of the idea of our society. Small Business owners are still considered the ideal, despite being less important then a middle manager..
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
No, no, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression should've been solved and we should be in a New Liberal Paradise that Obama never promised.
And then Goose raises it's head. No One Suggested the above. Obama's own advisers said the stimulus was way too little. Charitably it was naivety that led them to ask for a lower amount with the hope they could just go back for more later. The later focus on deficits has no such charitable basis. A ridiculous policy, that's led to continued economic struggle in the US for no reason at all. There was nothing won in the deficit battle. Obama argued to hurt the American Economy, Republicans in the House and Senate argued we should drown it in a bath tub. Democrats in the legislature settled on hurting it more than Obama asked for but not murdering it in a bath tub. No one has argued for Sane policy since. That is not asking for paradise.
So hypothetically, if Rick Santorum becomes the nominee for the Republicans, you're going to see it as basically a wash, social-policy wise? Santorum is only minimally worse in that area than Bush was, and Obama is only minimally better, right? You really feel comfortable giving that man the chance to act on those views from the highest office in our country? Who knows, maybe we'd get lucky and he (or any other conservative like him) would just sit on his ass and not try and push their conservative social agenda forward once they got elected, but I intend to do what I can to make sure they don't get the chance.
The point is that the views held by the far-right on social issues have become so odious, that I find myself with no other choice than to do everything I can to limit the opportunity they have to influence our society. Sometimes (well, frequently) that comes in the form of voting for a democrat.
edit: and I'm sick of more economically-minded liberals trying to get me to feel bad about that.
Nope. Just like I argued in the quote you apparently haven't read The difference between Bush and Obama is small, there largest difference is on GLBT issues, outside of that their large agreement, including other social issues like the Drug War (Where Obama's DOJ is farther to the right than Bush's). I do not belive, nor have I ever suggested the diffrence between Bush and Santorum are small. I suspect the policies that would get enacted under Romney would be in the Same Vein as Bush. If things continue on the way they are I won't have to find out. But Obama is essentially one great economic problem away from losing to Romney. Thankfully the brutality of the Republican Primary, the number of unforced errors, and the Republican electorates general distastes of Romney mean we probably don't have to worry about it, but by all mean go vote for Obama, I will. Just For god sakes can we have an actual Liberal president the next go around?
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
A thought, on the continuation of the Bush Timelines for ending the War in Iraq....
if it's not broken, why break it?
Seriously, the timeline was agreed to by the Previous administration, the Iraqis wanted it that way, and it worked out fine, relatively. The Iraq war as we knew it for 8+ years is over. In the well-mannered, precise way that it was decided to end. By the parties involved. It wasn't broken, it wasn't necessarily 'bad'. So why break it on principle? that's just ridiculous.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
New information gained when he took office?
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
A thought, on the continuation of the Bush Timelines for ending the War in Iraq....
if it's not broken, why break it?
Seriously, the timeline was agreed to by the Previous administration, the Iraqis wanted it that way, and it worked out fine, relatively. The Iraq war as we knew it for 8+ years is over. In the well-mannered, precise way that it was decided to end. By the parties involved. It wasn't broken, it wasn't necessarily 'bad'. So why break it on principle? that's just ridiculous.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
New information gained when he took office?
Political Reality. There are only so many things you can get done. Obama chose ACA.
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
A thought, on the continuation of the Bush Timelines for ending the War in Iraq....
if it's not broken, why break it?
Seriously, the timeline was agreed to by the Previous administration, the Iraqis wanted it that way, and it worked out fine, relatively. The Iraq war as we knew it for 8+ years is over. In the well-mannered, precise way that it was decided to end. By the parties involved. It wasn't broken, it wasn't necessarily 'bad'. So why break it on principle? that's just ridiculous.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
New information gained when he took office?
That would be acceptable, although I'm not aware of any such information.
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
We can have an honest-to-god liberal president when we have a liberal congress that can get the legislation through.
So, not anytime soon.
The thing is, we had a liberal congress. We has a Democrat for a President.
We had 58 Democrats in the Senate Plus Lieberman, Bernie Sanders and what's his old face from Pennsylvania.
Effective Genuine fixes to Health Care were Proposed in the House but not the Senate, then During Reconciliation they were not brought back up. The President was very clear that they were off the table. Some will say his support for them were luke warm, some will say that it was political inexperience on his part that he was trying to negotiate in good faith.
Economic remedies that were themselves overly conservative were identified by Obama's staff and suggested quite openly to him. Obama got behind far more conservative plans that included enormous tax cuts. The Liberal House was forced to accede even more. It's not a pipe dream to say Obama either didn't have the experience necessary to get even what little he wanted past or that he was out of touch with the political realities. It's not wishing for paradise to say he Did a bad job.
Edit: This should not be controversial. Just like with Bush we have moments of extreme Crisis that we needed exemplary leaders to get us out of. Just like with Bush the US got a president that was either to Naive or To blind to the solutions to make a real action to fix the problem the US found itself in. Lost Decade Here we come.
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
A thought, on the continuation of the Bush Timelines for ending the War in Iraq....
if it's not broken, why break it?
Seriously, the timeline was agreed to by the Previous administration, the Iraqis wanted it that way, and it worked out fine, relatively. The Iraq war as we knew it for 8+ years is over. In the well-mannered, precise way that it was decided to end. By the parties involved. It wasn't broken, it wasn't necessarily 'bad'. So why break it on principle? that's just ridiculous.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
New information gained when he took office?
That would be acceptable, although I'm not aware of any such information.
Combat troops wise, he said 16 months (so May 2010), it took until the end of August, 2010, I think. All troops did indeed take until two months ago. So depends on semantics how long it even took, and I'm willing to buy that various people in position to know that he did not have access to before he was elected convinced him to delay slightly to finish training regiments for Iraqis or whatever.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
Obama's Civil Rights division actually cares about, you know, civil rights.
Lifting the global gag rule
Lily Ledbetter
Opposed SOPA
I could keep doing this for days.
And still be wrong and still miss the point.
Opposed SOPA: Uses SOPA like rules to shut down websites.
Lifts Global Gag Rule: Opposed Federal Funding of Abortion
Supports Lily Ledbetter Legislatltion: Does not Support Ledbetter.
Supports Civil Rights: Keeps B.Manning in Jail past 120 Day UCMJ standard, because you know, war on terror.
Supports Civil Rights: Assassinates Americans Abroad
Supports Civil Rights: Warrantless Wire tapings on Americans Under Bush? A-Okay, no need to bring up History.
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
We can have an honest-to-god liberal president when we have a liberal congress that can get the legislation through.
So, not anytime soon.
The thing is, we had a liberal congress. We has a Democrat for a President.
We had 58 Democrats in the Senate Plus Lieberman, Bernie Sanders and what's his old face from Pennsylvania.
Effective Genuine fixes to Health Care were Proposed in the House but not the Senate, then During Reconciliation they were not brought back up. The President was very clear that they were off the table. Some will say his support for them were luke warm, some will say that it was political inexperience on his part that he was trying to negotiate in good faith.
Economic remedies that were themselves overly conservative were identified by Obama's staff and suggested quite openly to him. Obama got behind far more conservative plans that included enormous tax cuts. The Liberal House was forced to accede even more. It's not a pipe dream to say Obama either didn't have the experience necessary to get even what little he wanted past or that he was out of touch with the political realities. It's not wishing for paradise to say he Did a bad job.
Edit: This should not be controversial. Just like with Bush we have moments of extreme Crisis that we needed exemplary leaders to get us out of. Just like with Bush the US got a president that was either to Naive or To blind to the solutions to make a real action to fix the problem the US found itself in. Lost Decade Here we come.
Uh, the Democratic Congress wasn't really liberal, since they gained control through the Blue Dogs who were then overthrown by the Tea Party...
The US isn't a liberal country and it won't be for at least a few decades, if ever.
EDIT
You are right to say that Obama was inexperienced and didn't really seem to know what he was doing for a while. He knows seems to have learned the game and, in my opinion, is doing much better. And he's certainly a better option than his competition (even taking third party candidates into account.)
Obama's Civil Rights division actually cares about, you know, civil rights.
Lifting the global gag rule
Lily Ledbetter
Opposed SOPA
I could keep doing this for days.
And still be wrong and still miss the point.
Yep, you sure made an argument in this post. If you're going to keep insisting that Bush = Obama to a large degree, you're going to have to address that he, you know, doesn't. Outside of appointments to Treasury and the national security state.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
Options
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
A thought, on the continuation of the Bush Timelines for ending the War in Iraq....
if it's not broken, why break it?
Seriously, the timeline was agreed to by the Previous administration, the Iraqis wanted it that way, and it worked out fine, relatively. The Iraq war as we knew it for 8+ years is over. In the well-mannered, precise way that it was decided to end. By the parties involved. It wasn't broken, it wasn't necessarily 'bad'. So why break it on principle? that's just ridiculous.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
New information gained when he took office?
That would be acceptable, although I'm not aware of any such information.
Well, not to come across as rude, but you're not the President. And to my knowledge you don't have top secret or higher clearance. So, there might have been further information gleaned from security briefings that was not made available to the general public.
Candidates promise all kinds of things and say all kinds of things. But until you're actually in power, with all the information and decisions in front of you, there is no way to know how things are really shaking out. Even if Candidate Obama got updated Security Briefings (which he probably did) these things happen and change on a scale so vast and fast it would be hard to really get a full grip on it while gripping and grinning for voters.
There's also something to be said for keeping 'Our' word as a country. We said, in effect through GWB, that we would remain in Iraq until X date. Giving the Iraqis Y amount of time to prepare. How could going back on our word once a new leader got into power and essentially going "PSYCH!" on a large international stage have been good for us? Obama sticking with GWB's negotiated plan might not have been optimal, or even what some of us wanted to have happen. But it showed strength and consistency between leaders. It showed the rest of the world that negotiations they held with the previous administration were not going to be null and void just because there was a new boss in charge. Which is also, kind of important towards our standing in the world.
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
I echo what lonelyahava said.
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
Obama's Civil Rights division actually cares about, you know, civil rights.
Lifting the global gag rule
Lily Ledbetter
Opposed SOPA
I could keep doing this for days.
And still be wrong and still miss the point.
Yep, you sure made an argument in this post. If you're going to keep insisting that Bush = Obama to a large degree, you're going to have to address that he, you know, doesn't. Outside of appointments to Treasury and the national security state.
Opposed SOPA: Uses SOPA like rules to shut down websites.
Lifts Global Gag Rule: Opposed Federal Funding of Abortion
Supports Lily Ledbetter Legislatltion: Does not Support Ledbetter.
Supports Civil Rights: Keeps B.Manning in Jail past 120 Day UCMJ standard, because you know, war on terror.
Supports Civil Rights: Assassinates Americans Abroad
Supports Civil Rights: Warrantless Wire tapings on Americans Under Bush? A-Okay, no need to bring up History.
Fail Goose is fail.
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
And yet, you're hardly making a compelling case for abandoning them and letting them explode again just based on your belief system. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
0
Options
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
We stayed because we were asked to. Because we agreed to. Because their government asked us to. And when they were ready for us to leave, as we had agreed on, we left.
We went in there, on mostly totally false pretenses. We made a mess of their country. It's only fair that we try to clean it up as best we can until we're asked to leave. And once we were asked to leave, we left.
No, it wasn't an ideal situation. But unicorns aren't real and I can't slide on rainbows into pots of gold either.
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
And yet, you're hardly making a compelling case for abandoning them and letting them explode again just based on your belief system. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
Yes, If you're an imperialist.
Edit
This is all strangely familliar
---
* Hold a moment longer! Not quite yet, gentlemen! Before you go I would like to say just a word about the Philippine business. I have been criticized a good deal about the Philippines, but don’t deserve it. The truth is I didn’t want the Philippines, and when they came to us, as a gift from the gods, I did not know what to do with them. When the Spanish War broke out Dewey was at Hongkong, and I ordered him to go to Manila and to capture or destroy the Spanish fleet, and he had to; because, if defeated, he had no place to refit on that side of the globe, and if the Dons were victorious they would likely cross the Pacific and ravage our Oregon and California coasts. And so he had to destroy the Spanish fleet, and did it! But that was as far as I thought then.
When I next realized that the Philippines had dropped into our laps I confess I did not know what to do with them. I sought counsel from all sides—Democrats as well as Republicans—but got little help. I thought first we would take only Manila; then Luzon; then other islands perhaps also. I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way—I don’t know how it was, but it came:
(1) That we could not give them back to Spain—that would be cowardly and dishonorable;
(2) that we could not turn them over to France and Germany—our commercial rivals in the Orient—that would be bad business and discreditable;
(3) that we could not leave them to themselves—they were unfit for self-government—and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain’s was; and
(4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. [1]
And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the chief engineer of the War Department (our map-maker), and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States (pointing to a large map on the wall of his office), and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!--President William McKinley.[2]
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
And yet, you're hardly making a compelling case for abandoning them and letting them explode again just based on your belief system. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
Yes, If you're an imperialist.
...
No, not if you're an imperialist, if you're an adult who is capable of rational thought and doesn't think the world is black and white.
You don't just leave a country you destroyed when they can't handle themselves and if they ask you to stay. We left when we said we would. I don't have a problem with it, it's fine for you to have a problem with it fyi, but you're being a bit simpleminded about the issue.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
And yet, you're hardly making a compelling case for abandoning them and letting them explode again just based on your belief system. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
Yes, If you're an imperialist.
...
No, not if you're an imperialist, if you're an adult who is capable of rational thought and doesn't think the world is black and white.
You don't just leave a country you destroyed when they can't handle themselves and if they ask you to stay. We left when we said we would. I don't have a problem with it, it's fine for you to have a problem with it fyi, but you're being a bit simpleminded about the issue.
* Hold a moment longer! Not quite yet, gentlemen! Before you go I would like to say just a word about the Philippine business. I have been criticized a good deal about the Philippines, but don’t deserve it. The truth is I didn’t want the Philippines, and when they came to us, as a gift from the gods, I did not know what to do with them. When the Spanish War broke out Dewey was at Hongkong, and I ordered him to go to Manila and to capture or destroy the Spanish fleet, and he had to; because, if defeated, he had no place to refit on that side of the globe, and if the Dons were victorious they would likely cross the Pacific and ravage our Oregon and California coasts. And so he had to destroy the Spanish fleet, and did it! But that was as far as I thought then.
When I next realized that the Philippines had dropped into our laps I confess I did not know what to do with them. I sought counsel from all sides—Democrats as well as Republicans—but got little help. I thought first we would take only Manila; then Luzon; then other islands perhaps also. I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way—I don’t know how it was, but it came:
(1) That we could not give them back to Spain—that would be cowardly and dishonorable;
(2) that we could not turn them over to France and Germany—our commercial rivals in the Orient—that would be bad business and discreditable;
(3) that we could not leave them to themselves—they were unfit for self-government—and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain’s was; and
(4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. [1]
And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the chief engineer of the War Department (our map-maker), and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States (pointing to a large map on the wall of his office), and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!--President William McKinley.[2]
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
And yet, you're hardly making a compelling case for abandoning them and letting them explode again just based on your belief system. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
Yes, If you're an imperialist.
...
No, not if you're an imperialist, if you're an adult who is capable of rational thought and doesn't think the world is black and white.
You don't just leave a country you destroyed when they can't handle themselves and if they ask you to stay. We left when we said we would. I don't have a problem with it, it's fine for you to have a problem with it fyi, but you're being a bit simpleminded about the issue.
You say adult. I hear racist.
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
What the hell are you talking about?
You do realize that Iraq is not in fact part of the United States, yes? And that we did in fact leave Iraq and are leaving Afghanistan?
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
You do realize that Iraq is not in fact part of the United States, yes? And that we did in fact leave Iraq and are leaving Afghanistan?
Your argument. "Those poor brown people can figure things out without our interference." Is the same arguments as McKinnley's.
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I'm sorry.
But being told that because I know/believe that the world exists in shades of gray and grey and greyer, that I'm a racist?
Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
Bush declared Mission Accomplished in Iraq in 2003. The new government of Iraq formed in 2006. 6 years of occupation (3 under the new government) is plenty of time, so yeah, I don't think we saved a whole lot of lives by staying an extra 3 years and in the meantime we lost many American and Iraqi lives from continued skirmishes. Obviously I don't have much of the information available to me that Obama does, but neither do you guys, so let's take the appeal to authority off the table here.
With the economic situation at home when Obama took office I would have been completely fine with leaving in Jan 2009.
Given that Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for essentially being not-Bush, I doubt the rest of the world cared a lot about us upholding Bush's promises.
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
But being told that because I know/believe that the world exists in shades of gray and grey and greyer, that I'm a racist?
Yeah, you're not arguing in good faith.
You're a goose.
The argument "We've can't let the Iraqi people figure out what they want, because shades of grey" which in 2009 was for the US to GTFO. Is the same damned racist argument used to justify every continued occupation the US has been involved in, and we continue to occupy the largest embassy on the planet in Iraq, for 125 years.
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
There is no degree you can get that will automatically make you rich. \
It's about work, luck, and who you know.
The biggest problem with the job market is that this destroys most of the entry level jobs. And from earlier, I agree and have heard from other people that business like English and History majors because the know how to read and write but no one is hiring people with a BA, they are hiring people with a BA and 5 years experience in the field.
You do realize that Iraq is not in fact part of the United States, yes? And that we did in fact leave Iraq and are leaving Afghanistan?
Your argument. "Those poor brown people can figure things out without our interference." Is the same arguments as McKinnley's.
Uh, no, it isn't. I couldn't care less what color the skin of the Iraqis is. If we had invaded and regime changed Norway I'd feel the same way. How about you pull your head out of your ass and talk to me like an adult.
You want to debate with real statements, you go ahead. Tell me about lives lost, money spent, maybe bring in some evidence that Iraq wouldn't have collapsed into itself.
But you don't, you're just throwing around a tenth grader's understanding of history and calling me a racist because I don't see the world in black and white. When you feel like having an actual debate, I'll be here. But until you grow up have fun on your own.
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Bush declared Mission Accomplished in Iraq in 2003. The new government of Iraq formed in 2006. 6 years of occupation (3 under the new government) is plenty of time, so yeah, I don't think we saved a whole lot of lives by staying an extra 3 years and in the meantime we lost many American and Iraqi lives from continued skirmishes. Obviously I don't have much of the information available to me that Obama does, but neither do you guys, so let's take the appeal to authority off the table here.
With the economic situation at home when Obama took office I would have been completely fine with leaving in Jan 2009.
Given that Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for essentially being not-Bush, I doubt the rest of the world cared a lot about us upholding Bush's promises.
You do realize that Iraq is not in fact part of the United States, yes? And that we did in fact leave Iraq and are leaving Afghanistan?
Your argument. "Those poor brown people can figure things out without our interference." Is the same arguments as McKinnley's.
Uh, no, it isn't. I couldn't care less what color the skin of the Iraqis is. If we had invaded and regime changed Norway I'd feel the same way. How about you pull your head out of your ass and talk to me like an adult.
You want to debate with real statements, you go ahead. Tell me about lives lost, money spent, maybe bring in some evidence that Iraq wouldn't have collapsed into itself.
But you don't, you're just throwing around a tenth grader's understanding of history and calling me a racist because I don't see the world in black and white. When you feel like having an actual debate, I'll be here. But until you grow up have fun on your own.
Goose. It doesnt matter what would have happened. What matters is what they wanted. Your argument is the same as, "well I just raped you and got you pregnant now I have to stay in your house and live with you until the child grows up. Anything else would be irresponsible."
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
0
Options
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Bush declared Mission Accomplished in Iraq in 2003. The new government of Iraq formed in 2006. 6 years of occupation (3 under the new government) is plenty of time, so yeah, I don't think we saved a whole lot of lives by staying an extra 3 years and in the meantime we lost many American and Iraqi lives from continued skirmishes. Obviously I don't have much of the information available to me that Obama does, but neither do you guys, so let's take the appeal to authority off the table here.
With the economic situation at home when Obama took office I would have been completely fine with leaving in Jan 2009.
Given that Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for essentially being not-Bush, I doubt the rest of the world cared a lot about us upholding Bush's promises.
Witht he economic situation at home in 2009, bringing that many troops back all at once would have more than likely wreaked even more havoc on the system. I'm not saying that I like the 3 extra years of fighting, casualties, etc. I absolutely positively do not. But, that being said, bringing the troops home in 2009 would have been potentially catastrophic on the economy. On the recovery, which is slow going enough as it is. Add in the numbers of the soldiers to the unemployment numbers and things spike in ways that I surely don't understand. I wish we could have ended it sooner. Hell I wish we had never even gone in the first place. But that's just not the way reality worked out.
I'm not trying to appeal to authority, honestly. just saying that we don't have all the information so giving some benefit of the doubt is not out of line.
And to be honest, keeping the promises that Bush made is, while distasteful in some ways, is still an overall positive. If for no other reason than showing consistency of leadership. Treaties are treaties from Versailles on through to today because of consistency. There needs to be, especially in this age of globalism and information faster than light, the belief that what a country's leaders say will be held to when the next leaders come through. It really is that important.
That is fantastic news. My problem stems from the many friends (and random liberals on the internet) I have conversations with that constantly rattle off all the same stuff you have been, and then finish it off with "so I can't really feel comfortable voting for Obama again." I see it so much that I have really begun to think it's a serious problem. So I apologize if I projected that onto you, but in my experience, many liberals tend to be way too concerned with keeping their personal conscience clean. Sometimes you need to just bite the bullet and do what needs to be done, because the alternative has the possibility of being much, much worse. Making the perfect the enemy of the good is something a lot of people I know are very good at, and it also seems to be pretty common, hence the idea that dealing with liberals in politics is a lot like herding cats.
All of the negatives about the Obama administration that you (and my liberal friends) keep putting forth just make me kind of go, "yeah, mmhm, ok, sure, you're right...so what?" Voting for whatever choice we have that happens to be marginally more progressive is really the only thing you can do when it comes to election day. Pushing liberal(-ish) lawmakers to make liberal choices while their doing their job is incredibly important, but there isn't even a chance of that if the person who takes their job is actively working against the efforts of liberal causes. The risk that a conservative in office would actually act on the warped worldview they have is too great for me to feel comfortable abstaining from voting in some attempt to send a message to liberal politicians.
It sucks that liberal politicians in America are barely "liberal" at all, but have you seen the culture out there? "Liberal" has literally been turned into a bad word for a huge portion of the populace, and the politicians have bought into it as well. Not voting, and thereby ensuring conservative victories does nothing to fix that. In fact, it makes it worse, for pretty obvious reasons.
your troll just berserked on us.
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
You do realize that Iraq is not in fact part of the United States, yes? And that we did in fact leave Iraq and are leaving Afghanistan?
Your argument. "Those poor brown people can figure things out without our interference." Is the same arguments as McKinnley's.
Uh, no, it isn't. I couldn't care less what color the skin of the Iraqis is. If we had invaded and regime changed Norway I'd feel the same way. How about you pull your head out of your ass and talk to me like an adult.
You want to debate with real statements, you go ahead. Tell me about lives lost, money spent, maybe bring in some evidence that Iraq wouldn't have collapsed into itself.
But you don't, you're just throwing around a tenth grader's understanding of history and calling me a racist because I don't see the world in black and white. When you feel like having an actual debate, I'll be here. But until you grow up have fun on your own.
Goose. It doesnt matter what would have happened. What matters is what they wanted. Your argument is the same as, "well I just raped you and got you pregnant now I have to stay in your house and live with you until the child grows up. Anything else would be irresponsible."
Goose. Leaving when we agreed to leave, agreed with the elected Iraqi government, is not the same at all.
Grow up.
0
Options
SerukoFerocious Kittenof The Farthest NorthRegistered Userregular
That is fantastic news. My problem stems from the many friends (and random liberals on the internet) I have conversations with that constantly rattle off all the same stuff you have been, and then finish it off with "so I can't really feel comfortable voting for Obama again." I see it so much that I have really begun to think it's a serious problem. So I apologize if I projected that onto you, but in my experience, many liberals tend to be way too concerned with keeping their personal conscience clean. Sometimes you need to just bite the bullet and do what needs to be done, because the alternative has the possibility of being much, much worse. Making the perfect the enemy of the good is something a lot of people I know are very good at, and it also seems to be pretty common, hence the idea that dealing with liberals in politics is a lot like herding cats.
All of the negatives about the Obama administration that you (and my liberal friends) keep putting forth just make me kind of go, "yeah, mmhm, ok, sure, you're right...so what?" Voting for whatever choice we have that happens to be marginally more progressive is really the only thing you can do when it comes to election day. Pushing liberal(-ish) lawmakers to make liberal choices while their doing their job is incredibly important, but there isn't even a chance of that if the person who takes their job is actively working against the efforts of liberal causes. The risk that a conservative in office would actually act on the warped worldview they have is too great for me to feel comfortable abstaining from voting in some attempt to send a message to liberal politicians.
It sucks that liberal politicians in America are barely "liberal" at all, but have you seen the culture out there? "Liberal" has literally been turned into a bad word for a huge portion of the populace, and the politicians have bought into it as well. Not voting, and thereby ensuring conservative victories does nothing to fix that. In fact, it makes it worse, for pretty obvious reasons.
That's pretty reasonable, but depressing.
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
Posts
He promised some neat stuff that hasn't passed, but that's mostly the Senate's fault.
I want my infrastructure bank.
So hypothetically, if Rick Santorum becomes the nominee for the Republicans, you're going to see it as basically a wash, social-policy wise? Santorum is only minimally worse in that area than Bush was, and Obama is only minimally better, right? You really feel comfortable giving that man the chance to act on those views from the highest office in our country? Who knows, maybe we'd get lucky and he (or any other conservative like him) would just sit on his ass and not try and push their conservative social agenda forward once they got elected, but I intend to do what I can to make sure they don't get the chance.
The point is that the views held by the far-right on social issues have become so odious, that I find myself with no other choice than to do everything I can to limit the opportunity they have to influence our society. Sometimes (well, frequently) that comes in the form of voting for a democrat.
edit: and I'm sick of more economically-minded liberals trying to get me to feel bad about that.
Candidate Obama himself said the timeline was too long during his 2008 run. Extending the occupation cost plenty of money and lives and I don't see any real benefit to the Iraqi people themselves. The destabilizing effect of our withdrawal was going to happen whether we did it sooner or later, we got what we (ostensibly) came for, so why not leave sooner?
Working class Is a reference to the olden days of yore. Back in the day only the poorest of the poor worked for wages. The Middle class own their own farms or small businesses/shops. Working for a wage was a sign you where a "wage slave" beholden to another.
As for being rich meant not working for a living. Living of rents, accepting honorariums or living of returns of investments was acceptable. Actually working for a wage? No.
This was the way society saw things right up until 1920 and is still a significant part of the idea of our society. Small Business owners are still considered the ideal, despite being less important then a middle manager..
And then Goose raises it's head. No One Suggested the above. Obama's own advisers said the stimulus was way too little. Charitably it was naivety that led them to ask for a lower amount with the hope they could just go back for more later. The later focus on deficits has no such charitable basis. A ridiculous policy, that's led to continued economic struggle in the US for no reason at all. There was nothing won in the deficit battle. Obama argued to hurt the American Economy, Republicans in the House and Senate argued we should drown it in a bath tub. Democrats in the legislature settled on hurting it more than Obama asked for but not murdering it in a bath tub. No one has argued for Sane policy since. That is not asking for paradise.
Nope. Just like I argued in the quote you apparently haven't read The difference between Bush and Obama is small, there largest difference is on GLBT issues, outside of that their large agreement, including other social issues like the Drug War (Where Obama's DOJ is farther to the right than Bush's). I do not belive, nor have I ever suggested the diffrence between Bush and Santorum are small. I suspect the policies that would get enacted under Romney would be in the Same Vein as Bush. If things continue on the way they are I won't have to find out. But Obama is essentially one great economic problem away from losing to Romney. Thankfully the brutality of the Republican Primary, the number of unforced errors, and the Republican electorates general distastes of Romney mean we probably don't have to worry about it, but by all mean go vote for Obama, I will. Just For god sakes can we have an actual Liberal president the next go around?
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
New information gained when he took office?
Political Reality. There are only so many things you can get done. Obama chose ACA.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
So, not anytime soon.
Obama's Civil Rights division actually cares about, you know, civil rights.
Lifting the global gag rule
Lily Ledbetter
Opposed SOPA
I could keep doing this for days.
That would be acceptable, although I'm not aware of any such information.
The thing is, we had a liberal congress. We has a Democrat for a President.
We had 58 Democrats in the Senate Plus Lieberman, Bernie Sanders and what's his old face from Pennsylvania.
Effective Genuine fixes to Health Care were Proposed in the House but not the Senate, then During Reconciliation they were not brought back up. The President was very clear that they were off the table. Some will say his support for them were luke warm, some will say that it was political inexperience on his part that he was trying to negotiate in good faith.
Economic remedies that were themselves overly conservative were identified by Obama's staff and suggested quite openly to him. Obama got behind far more conservative plans that included enormous tax cuts. The Liberal House was forced to accede even more. It's not a pipe dream to say Obama either didn't have the experience necessary to get even what little he wanted past or that he was out of touch with the political realities. It's not wishing for paradise to say he Did a bad job.
Edit: This should not be controversial. Just like with Bush we have moments of extreme Crisis that we needed exemplary leaders to get us out of. Just like with Bush the US got a president that was either to Naive or To blind to the solutions to make a real action to fix the problem the US found itself in. Lost Decade Here we come.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
Combat troops wise, he said 16 months (so May 2010), it took until the end of August, 2010, I think. All troops did indeed take until two months ago. So depends on semantics how long it even took, and I'm willing to buy that various people in position to know that he did not have access to before he was elected convinced him to delay slightly to finish training regiments for Iraqis or whatever.
And still be wrong and still miss the point.
Opposed SOPA: Uses SOPA like rules to shut down websites.
Lifts Global Gag Rule: Opposed Federal Funding of Abortion
Supports Lily Ledbetter Legislatltion: Does not Support Ledbetter.
Supports Civil Rights: Keeps B.Manning in Jail past 120 Day UCMJ standard, because you know, war on terror.
Supports Civil Rights: Assassinates Americans Abroad
Supports Civil Rights: Warrantless Wire tapings on Americans Under Bush? A-Okay, no need to bring up History.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
Uh, the Democratic Congress wasn't really liberal, since they gained control through the Blue Dogs who were then overthrown by the Tea Party...
The US isn't a liberal country and it won't be for at least a few decades, if ever.
EDIT
You are right to say that Obama was inexperienced and didn't really seem to know what he was doing for a while. He knows seems to have learned the game and, in my opinion, is doing much better. And he's certainly a better option than his competition (even taking third party candidates into account.)
Yep, you sure made an argument in this post. If you're going to keep insisting that Bush = Obama to a large degree, you're going to have to address that he, you know, doesn't. Outside of appointments to Treasury and the national security state.
Well, not to come across as rude, but you're not the President. And to my knowledge you don't have top secret or higher clearance. So, there might have been further information gleaned from security briefings that was not made available to the general public.
Candidates promise all kinds of things and say all kinds of things. But until you're actually in power, with all the information and decisions in front of you, there is no way to know how things are really shaking out. Even if Candidate Obama got updated Security Briefings (which he probably did) these things happen and change on a scale so vast and fast it would be hard to really get a full grip on it while gripping and grinning for voters.
There's also something to be said for keeping 'Our' word as a country. We said, in effect through GWB, that we would remain in Iraq until X date. Giving the Iraqis Y amount of time to prepare. How could going back on our word once a new leader got into power and essentially going "PSYCH!" on a large international stage have been good for us? Obama sticking with GWB's negotiated plan might not have been optimal, or even what some of us wanted to have happen. But it showed strength and consistency between leaders. It showed the rest of the world that negotiations they held with the previous administration were not going to be null and void just because there was a new boss in charge. Which is also, kind of important towards our standing in the world.
At least, that's how I see it.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Also, if you think just throwing our hands up and leaving Iraq in Jan 2009 would have been a good idea, you should probably not ever run for office. There definitely would have been more violence and even greater social unrest in the country if we had just peaced out.
To quote Colin Powell: You break it, you buy it.
As good a reason for continued imperialist occupation of any country anytime.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
Opposed SOPA: Uses SOPA like rules to shut down websites.
Lifts Global Gag Rule: Opposed Federal Funding of Abortion
Supports Lily Ledbetter Legislatltion: Does not Support Ledbetter.
Supports Civil Rights: Keeps B.Manning in Jail past 120 Day UCMJ standard, because you know, war on terror.
Supports Civil Rights: Assassinates Americans Abroad
Supports Civil Rights: Warrantless Wire tapings on Americans Under Bush? A-Okay, no need to bring up History.
Fail Goose is fail.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
And yet, you're hardly making a compelling case for abandoning them and letting them explode again just based on your belief system. Things are more complicated than you're making them out to be.
We stayed because we were asked to. Because we agreed to. Because their government asked us to. And when they were ready for us to leave, as we had agreed on, we left.
We went in there, on mostly totally false pretenses. We made a mess of their country. It's only fair that we try to clean it up as best we can until we're asked to leave. And once we were asked to leave, we left.
No, it wasn't an ideal situation. But unicorns aren't real and I can't slide on rainbows into pots of gold either.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Yes, If you're an imperialist.
Edit
This is all strangely familliar
---
* Hold a moment longer! Not quite yet, gentlemen! Before you go I would like to say just a word about the Philippine business. I have been criticized a good deal about the Philippines, but don’t deserve it. The truth is I didn’t want the Philippines, and when they came to us, as a gift from the gods, I did not know what to do with them. When the Spanish War broke out Dewey was at Hongkong, and I ordered him to go to Manila and to capture or destroy the Spanish fleet, and he had to; because, if defeated, he had no place to refit on that side of the globe, and if the Dons were victorious they would likely cross the Pacific and ravage our Oregon and California coasts. And so he had to destroy the Spanish fleet, and did it! But that was as far as I thought then.
When I next realized that the Philippines had dropped into our laps I confess I did not know what to do with them. I sought counsel from all sides—Democrats as well as Republicans—but got little help. I thought first we would take only Manila; then Luzon; then other islands perhaps also. I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way—I don’t know how it was, but it came:
(1) That we could not give them back to Spain—that would be cowardly and dishonorable;
(2) that we could not turn them over to France and Germany—our commercial rivals in the Orient—that would be bad business and discreditable;
(3) that we could not leave them to themselves—they were unfit for self-government—and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain’s was; and
(4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. [1]
And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the chief engineer of the War Department (our map-maker), and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States (pointing to a large map on the wall of his office), and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!--President William McKinley.[2]
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
...
No, not if you're an imperialist, if you're an adult who is capable of rational thought and doesn't think the world is black and white.
You don't just leave a country you destroyed when they can't handle themselves and if they ask you to stay. We left when we said we would. I don't have a problem with it, it's fine for you to have a problem with it fyi, but you're being a bit simpleminded about the issue.
* Hold a moment longer! Not quite yet, gentlemen! Before you go I would like to say just a word about the Philippine business. I have been criticized a good deal about the Philippines, but don’t deserve it. The truth is I didn’t want the Philippines, and when they came to us, as a gift from the gods, I did not know what to do with them. When the Spanish War broke out Dewey was at Hongkong, and I ordered him to go to Manila and to capture or destroy the Spanish fleet, and he had to; because, if defeated, he had no place to refit on that side of the globe, and if the Dons were victorious they would likely cross the Pacific and ravage our Oregon and California coasts. And so he had to destroy the Spanish fleet, and did it! But that was as far as I thought then.
When I next realized that the Philippines had dropped into our laps I confess I did not know what to do with them. I sought counsel from all sides—Democrats as well as Republicans—but got little help. I thought first we would take only Manila; then Luzon; then other islands perhaps also. I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way—I don’t know how it was, but it came:
(1) That we could not give them back to Spain—that would be cowardly and dishonorable;
(2) that we could not turn them over to France and Germany—our commercial rivals in the Orient—that would be bad business and discreditable;
(3) that we could not leave them to themselves—they were unfit for self-government—and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain’s was; and
(4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. [1]
And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the chief engineer of the War Department (our map-maker), and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States (pointing to a large map on the wall of his office), and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!--President William McKinley.[2]
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
You say adult. I hear racist.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
You do realize that Iraq is not in fact part of the United States, yes? And that we did in fact leave Iraq and are leaving Afghanistan?
Your argument. "Those poor brown people can figure things out without our interference." Is the same arguments as McKinnley's.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
But being told that because I know/believe that the world exists in shades of gray and grey and greyer, that I'm a racist?
Yeah, you're not arguing in good faith.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
With the economic situation at home when Obama took office I would have been completely fine with leaving in Jan 2009.
Given that Obama got the Nobel Peace prize for essentially being not-Bush, I doubt the rest of the world cared a lot about us upholding Bush's promises.
The argument "We've can't let the Iraqi people figure out what they want, because shades of grey" which in 2009 was for the US to GTFO. Is the same damned racist argument used to justify every continued occupation the US has been involved in, and we continue to occupy the largest embassy on the planet in Iraq, for 125 years.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
The biggest problem with the job market is that this destroys most of the entry level jobs. And from earlier, I agree and have heard from other people that business like English and History majors because the know how to read and write but no one is hiring people with a BA, they are hiring people with a BA and 5 years experience in the field.
Uh, no, it isn't. I couldn't care less what color the skin of the Iraqis is. If we had invaded and regime changed Norway I'd feel the same way. How about you pull your head out of your ass and talk to me like an adult.
You want to debate with real statements, you go ahead. Tell me about lives lost, money spent, maybe bring in some evidence that Iraq wouldn't have collapsed into itself.
But you don't, you're just throwing around a tenth grader's understanding of history and calling me a racist because I don't see the world in black and white. When you feel like having an actual debate, I'll be here. But until you grow up have fun on your own.
@Seruko
See this post? This is how you debate this question. These are opinions I can respect, even if I don't particulary agree 100%.
"You're an imperialist. You're a racist." Are not.
Goose. It doesnt matter what would have happened. What matters is what they wanted. Your argument is the same as, "well I just raped you and got you pregnant now I have to stay in your house and live with you until the child grows up. Anything else would be irresponsible."
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
Witht he economic situation at home in 2009, bringing that many troops back all at once would have more than likely wreaked even more havoc on the system. I'm not saying that I like the 3 extra years of fighting, casualties, etc. I absolutely positively do not. But, that being said, bringing the troops home in 2009 would have been potentially catastrophic on the economy. On the recovery, which is slow going enough as it is. Add in the numbers of the soldiers to the unemployment numbers and things spike in ways that I surely don't understand. I wish we could have ended it sooner. Hell I wish we had never even gone in the first place. But that's just not the way reality worked out.
I'm not trying to appeal to authority, honestly. just saying that we don't have all the information so giving some benefit of the doubt is not out of line.
And to be honest, keeping the promises that Bush made is, while distasteful in some ways, is still an overall positive. If for no other reason than showing consistency of leadership. Treaties are treaties from Versailles on through to today because of consistency. There needs to be, especially in this age of globalism and information faster than light, the belief that what a country's leaders say will be held to when the next leaders come through. It really is that important.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
All of the negatives about the Obama administration that you (and my liberal friends) keep putting forth just make me kind of go, "yeah, mmhm, ok, sure, you're right...so what?" Voting for whatever choice we have that happens to be marginally more progressive is really the only thing you can do when it comes to election day. Pushing liberal(-ish) lawmakers to make liberal choices while their doing their job is incredibly important, but there isn't even a chance of that if the person who takes their job is actively working against the efforts of liberal causes. The risk that a conservative in office would actually act on the warped worldview they have is too great for me to feel comfortable abstaining from voting in some attempt to send a message to liberal politicians.
It sucks that liberal politicians in America are barely "liberal" at all, but have you seen the culture out there? "Liberal" has literally been turned into a bad word for a huge portion of the populace, and the politicians have bought into it as well. Not voting, and thereby ensuring conservative victories does nothing to fix that. In fact, it makes it worse, for pretty obvious reasons.
Goose. Leaving when we agreed to leave, agreed with the elected Iraqi government, is not the same at all.
Grow up.
That's pretty reasonable, but depressing.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes