What's wrong with chiropractors?

Atomika

SmokeStacks wrote:

It's medical training, this is not something that can be disputed.

There is definitely an avenue for a "Is their training thorough enough to qualify them to practice any form of medicine?" discussion, but Durandal's implication was that any swinging dick could set up shop and start cracking spines with no training whatsoever.

I think the biggest issue people in this thread have is with chiropractic practitioners that peddle bullshit ("Have you gotten your flu adjustment?"), not with chiropractic medicine's primary goal itself (mechanical adjustment of the bones can decrease pain).

It's not medical training. Please stop saying that.

At (very, very) best, it's a palliative therapeutic training similar to massage therapy. There's nothing medical about it. Chiropractors are not doctors, nurses, practitioners, therapists, or any other legally-defined medical personnel.

Schrodinger

You know, one thing chiropractors have going for them is that people generally aren't going to trust their spinal cords to someone else unless they're already convinced that it will work.

It's not like when a food critic goods to a shitty restaurant, expecting shitty food, but hoping to be surprised.

So as long as the guy doesn't paralyze them, it's considered a victory.

rndmhero

SmokeStacks wrote:

It's medical training, this is not something that can be disputed.

There is definitely an avenue for a "Is their training thorough enough to qualify them to practice any form of medicine?" discussion, but Durandal's implication was that any swinging dick could set up shop and start cracking spines with no training whatsoever.

I think the biggest issue people in this thread have is with chiropractic practitioners that peddle bullshit ("Have you gotten your flu adjustment?"), not with chiropractic medicine's primary goal itself (mechanical adjustment of the bones can decrease pain).

Sorry, didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to disagree with you.

I'm sure ritualistic shamans spend years learning about how their art affects the human body; you're free to call that "medical training" as well. I'd still call bullshit. If the field is based on quack pseudoscience, no amount of training legitimizes it.

If the extent of your claim is that they must go through some form of formal education and testing, then sure. That really has no relevance to their worth as practicioners, though.

ElJeffe

Schrodinger wrote:

BTW, has anyone heard of the blood type diet? It will make your brain explode with how nonsense it is. Basically, it's designed to combine the appeal of easy answers and the American need for individually, by saying, "Everyone is different, what works for other people might not work for you, which is why you need an incredibly specific diet catered specifically to your unique blood type!"

For instance, my friend was told that the only meat she's allowed to eat is lamb and turkey. There isn't a culture anywhere on Earth that only ate lamb and turkey. There is no way to test this diet, since there are so many factors involved that it's impossible to tell what works even if it helped. And the diet is so incredibly restrictive that it's designed so that it's impossible to stick to, so if it doesn't produce the desired results, then it's your fault for cheating.

Basically, it's designed to get people to be invested so heavily into a system that they start deluding themselves.

You have been randomly selected for the lucrative Stop Talking About Goddamn Cholesterol Award! Your prize is that I highlight your particular post while yelling at the thread at large to stop talking about goddamn cholesterol in the chiropractor thread! Boffo!

Alistair Hutton

SmokeStacks wrote:

I think the biggest issue people in this thread have is with chiropractic practitioners that peddle bullshit ("Have you gotten your flu adjustment?"), not with chiropractic medicine's primary goal itself (mechanical adjustment of the bones can decrease pain).

To do that we have the area of study: physiotherapy. Which does everything that chriopracty provably does, plus more - but with medial evidence and without fucking bullshit.

enc0re

SmokeStacks wrote:

It's medical training, this is not something that can be disputed.

I'll dispute that. Unless you consider actual Voodoo to also rise to the standard of medical training. In which case we're using different semantics and that's cool.

But chiropractic training does not get to hang with the kids whose training has a scientific basis.

shryke

Atomic Ross wrote:

SmokeStacks wrote:

It's medical training, this is not something that can be disputed.

There is definitely an avenue for a "Is their training thorough enough to qualify them to practice any form of medicine?" discussion, but Durandal's implication was that any swinging dick could set up shop and start cracking spines with no training whatsoever.

I think the biggest issue people in this thread have is with chiropractic practitioners that peddle bullshit ("Have you gotten your flu adjustment?"), not with chiropractic medicine's primary goal itself (mechanical adjustment of the bones can decrease pain).

It's not medical training. Please stop saying that.

At (very, very) best, it's a palliative therapeutic training similar to massage therapy. There's nothing medical about it. Chiropractors are not doctors, nurses, practitioners, therapists, or any other legally-defined medical personnel.

That may be what he meant anyway. They certainly have training of some sort. Message therapists is probably the best analogy actually.


Anyway, I mostly wonder if this whole "flu adjustment" thing is regional or something. I have never seen or heard of it's like in Canada.

Atomika

shryke wrote:

Message therapists is probably the best analogy actually.

And if someone called themselves a "doctor" of massage, they'd be sued for misrepresentation.


Like, you can call yourself a "Toilet Doctor" or a "Lock Doctor" or a "Mini-Blinds Doctor" because no one actually expects you to have any real credentials, and even if they did, there's no risk to your own person. The "Paint Doctor" isn't going to misdiagnose your pneumonia by telling you your chi is out of alignment.

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

Bagginses

Atomic Ross wrote:

shryke wrote:

Message therapists is probably the best analogy actually.

And if someone called themselves a "doctor" of massage, they'd be sued for misrepresentation.


Like, you can call yourself a "Toilet Doctor" or a "Lock Doctor" or a "Mini-Blinds Doctor" because no one actually expects you to have any real credentials, and even if they did, there's no risk to your own person. The "Paint Doctor" isn't going to misdiagnose your pneumonia by telling you your chi is out of alignment.

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

What about the naughty doctors at the club?

enc0re

Bagginses wrote:

What about the naughty doctors at the club?

[citation needed].

Spoiler:

Pics or it didn't happen.

Julius

Thanatos wrote:

If you want to talk about Paleo, please do it in a thread dedicated to that particular type of heinous bullshit.

Anything that tells me to eat more meat and fat is okay in my book.

Kistra

Atomic Ross wrote:

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

That is actually a rather contentious statement at the moment.

With the doctorate (PhD equivalent) level degrees in clinical fields like nursing, physical therapy and speech therapy there are (a lot of) people that want to be called doctor in the hospital that are not MDs or DOs.

Bagginses

Kistra wrote:

Atomic Ross wrote:

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

That is actually a rather contentious statement at the moment.

With the doctorate (PhD equivalent) level degrees in clinical fields like nursing, physical therapy and speech therapy there are (a lot of) people that want to be called doctor in the hospital that are not MDs or DOs.

Verily, nurses are the medical pizza sauce.

Edit: changed "truly" to "verily" because that sounds more natural somehow.

zepherin

Yes Doctor should be reserved for Medical Doctors and rap artists, nobody else.

Feral

Kistra wrote:

Atomic Ross wrote:

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

That is actually a rather contentious statement at the moment.

With the doctorate (PhD equivalent) level degrees in clinical fields like nursing, physical therapy and speech therapy there are (a lot of) people that want to be called doctor in the hospital that are not MDs or DOs.

I think that it is useful to make the distinction between healthcare providers who are practicing within the mainstream objective medicine paradigm yet are not medical doctors (nurse practitioners, physician assistants, physical therapists, speech therapists, dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, most psychologists and most midwives) versus healthcare providers who want to practice outside of that paradigm (a lot of chiropractors, nutritionists, massage therapists, acupuncturists).

Some of the former can legitimately be called "doctor" - dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, PsyD psychologists, DNP nurses. I don't have a problem with that on principle; I don't think that the "doctor" title need be confined specifically to MDs.

Atomika

Kistra wrote:

Atomic Ross wrote:

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

That is actually a rather contentious statement at the moment.

With the doctorate (PhD equivalent) level degrees in clinical fields like nursing, physical therapy and speech therapy there are (a lot of) people that want to be called doctor in the hospital that are not MDs or DOs.

I work in the medical field! I know!

I actually have two family friends who are doctorate-level college professors in the field of nursing. Every time they go to their clinical studies at the hospital in their suits and labcoats they insist on being called, "doctor."

Drives me fucking crazy.

Atomika

Feral wrote:

Some of the former can legitimately be called "doctor" - dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, PsyD psychologists, DNP nurses. I don't have a problem with that on principle; I don't think that the "doctor" title need be confined specifically to MDs.

Yeah, we can expand that to cover those titles, I guess, but that's rarely an issue in the context of acute medicine. I suppose we can expand the argument to include all medical personnel that has a license to dispense medicine AND doctorate-level credentialing.

But floor nurses, nutritionists, and therapists shouldn't get to call themselves "doctor" outside of the classroom, and homeopathic/palliative specialists should never get to use the title.

mrt144

Atomic Ross wrote:

Kistra wrote:

Atomic Ross wrote:

Real simple: if you have a job that involves touching, inserting objects within, or giving advice about the human body, you don't get to use the title of doctor unless you're an MD or a DO.

That is actually a rather contentious statement at the moment.

With the doctorate (PhD equivalent) level degrees in clinical fields like nursing, physical therapy and speech therapy there are (a lot of) people that want to be called doctor in the hospital that are not MDs or DOs.

I work in the medical field! I know!

I actually have two family friends who are doctorate-level college professors in the field of nursing. Every time they go to their clinical studies at the hospital in their suits and labcoats they insist on being called, "doctor."

Drives me fucking crazy.

I have 3 friends that all earned their PHDs within a year of one another. All insist on being called doctor formally.

Feral

Atomic Ross wrote:

Feral wrote:

Some of the former can legitimately be called "doctor" - dentists, podiatrists, optometrists, PsyD psychologists, DNP nurses. I don't have a problem with that on principle; I don't think that the "doctor" title need be confined specifically to MDs.

Yeah, we can expand that to cover those titles, I guess, but that's rarely an issue in the context of acute medicine. I suppose we can expand the argument to include all medical personnel that has a license to dispense medicine AND doctorate-level credentialing.

But floor nurses, nutritionists, and therapists shouldn't get to call themselves "doctor" outside of the classroom, and homeopathic/palliative specialists should never get to use the title.

That's basically how I feel about it.

CheBourgeoisNoir

What really gets me is I've never heard of *any* of this shit where I'm from. Maybe Michigan just has stricter laws about this sort of thing (I have no idea), but I've literally never heard anything about "sublaxations" or any other kind of weird psuedoscience that chiropractors perform. While I can understand the rageboner that OP is getting regarding that sort of thing, the experience I've heard with chiropractors is mainly that they exist as a less-glorified D.O. - my dad was a tradesman for 30+ years for Chrysler, and blew out his shoulder in the process, aggravated by arthritis - he had a number of minimally-invasive surgeries to remove bone spurs and that kind of thing, and wound up having to get the whole thing replaced, and now possesses a bad-ass scar, 90% of his ROM and most importantly, a lot less pain. Before the surgery, dad would sometimes torque his shoulder at work and wind up going to the chiro, and claims that it's the only thing that really fixes it. If you tried burning candles and Barry White while talking about chakras and "sublaxination" he would look at you like you were growing an asshole out of your forehead. Moreover, Blue Cross doesn't cover this kind of thing here, either, which is strange to me considering that the plan we had was like a premium health/dental/optical plan, and they wouldn't cover those treatments, but Thanatos' example of providers who cover psuedosciency shit exist?

Anecdocal evidence asside, assuming, too, for the sake of argument that a number of chiropractors perform essentially D.O. functions, are we lumping D.O.'s into this mess as well? Because when I think chiro, I think adjustments, and that's AFAIK what a D.O. does.

Atomika

mrt144 wrote:

I have 3 friends that all earned their PHDs within a year of one another. All insist on being called doctor formally.

Then they insist on being assholes.

I only had one college professor ever stop me from addressing her as "Mrs." or "Professor" and insist upon "Dr."


And guess what? Asshole.

Thanatos

CheBourgeoisNoir wrote:

What really gets me is I've never heard of *any* of this shit where I'm from. Maybe Michigan just has stricter laws about this sort of thing (I have no idea), but I've literally never heard anything about "sublaxations" or any other kind of weird psuedoscience that chiropractors perform. While I can understand the rageboner that OP is getting regarding that sort of thing, the experience I've heard with chiropractors is mainly that they exist as a less-glorified D.O. - my dad was a tradesman for 30+ years for Chrysler, and blew out his shoulder in the process, aggravated by arthritis - he had a number of minimally-invasive surgeries to remove bone spurs and that kind of thing, and wound up having to get the whole thing replaced, and now possesses a bad-ass scar, 90% of his ROM and most importantly, a lot less pain. Before the surgery, dad would sometimes torque his shoulder at work and wind up going to the chiro, and claims that it's the only thing that really fixes it. If you tried burning candles and Barry White while talking about chakras and "sublaxination" he would look at you like you were growing an asshole out of your forehead. Moreover, Blue Cross doesn't cover this kind of thing here, either, which is strange to me considering that the plan we had was like a premium health/dental/optical plan, and they wouldn't cover those treatments, but Thanatos' example of providers who cover psuedosciency shit exist?

Some of it is medical insurance, but a lot of it is auto insurance, where the insurance company doesn't really have a say in what treatment he injured party is getting.

Atomika

CheBourgeoisNoir wrote:

Anecdocal evidence asside, assuming, too, for the sake of argument that a number of chiropractors perform essentially D.O. functions, are we lumping D.O.'s into this mess as well? Because when I think chiro, I think adjustments, and that's AFAIK what a D.O. does.

I don't know what it is that you think a D.O. does, but a D.O. is a full-blown medical doctor. I've worked with many in various hospitals, including several that were department heads.

CheBourgeoisNoir

I'm aware that D.O.s are full-blown medical doctors, my primary care physician is a D.O. who once gave me a lower back adjustment (that, coincidentally, was basically the same lower-back-popping I do at home by sitting in a chair and twisting my torso). I'm referring to the fact that D.O.'s make adjustments. For the purposes of someone with, say, shoulder or lower back pain, and the fact that both D.O.s and chiropractors make adjustments, I'm saying I'm either A) surprised that chiropractors who solely perform adjustments are being harangued when D.O.s perform this same function, or B) confused as to the difference between what constitutes an "adjustment" given by a chiropractor or one given by a D.O.

Edit: Yeah, my above comment about "AFAIK that's what a D.O. does" came out all wrong. I'm referring just to the fact they do adjustments.

Atomika

CheBourgeoisNoir wrote:

I'm aware that D.O.s are full-blown medical doctors, my primary care physician is a D.O. who once gave me a lower back adjustment (that, coincidentally, was basically the same lower-back-popping I do at home by sitting in a chair and twisting my torso). I'm referring to the fact that D.O.'s make adjustments. For the purposes of someone with, say, shoulder or lower back pain, and the fact that both D.O.s and chiropractors make adjustments, I'm saying I'm either A) surprised that chiropractors who solely perform adjustments are being harangued when D.O.s perform this same function, or B) confused as to the difference between what constitutes an "adjustment" given by a chiropractor or one given by a D.O.

Edit: Yeah, my above comment about "AFAIK that's what a D.O. does" came out all wrong. I'm referring just to the fact they do adjustments.

Ah. Noted.

I think the lion's share of the harblgarble here is directed at chiropractors who deceive their clients into scheduling schemes and pawn useless homeopathic snake-oil onto them, not so much some of the physical manipulation they can perform.

A chiropractor, just like a PT or a DO, can perform some minimal spinal adjustment techniques that will relieve some minor pain, and can suggest exercises to strengthen those areas. But that's about it.

enc0re

Atomic Ross wrote:

Then they insist on being assholes.

I only had one college professor ever stop me from addressing her as "Mrs." or "Professor" and insist upon "Dr."


And guess what? Asshole.

It's entirely possible to be a college instructor with a Ph.D., AKA a Doctor, without having risen to the rank of Professor. Of course, I don't know if that was the case here.

Professor > Doctor.

Klash

shryke wrote:

Anyway, I mostly wonder if this whole "flu adjustment" thing is regional or something. I have never seen or heard of it's like in Canada.

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/151767/thats-bullshit/p1

SE++'s predecessor to this thread. Pretty sure it's Toronto, or at least Ontario. I remember that being said in there, and 416 is an Ontario/Toronto-area code.

I actually hadn't paid much attention to it, until after a visit to Oshawa*, a place where every corner has two things: a church and a chiropractor (often chiropractice + some other feel-good yoga crap). Now that I actually keep my eye out, in the Greater Toronto Area, I'm seeing far too many chiropractic, homeopathic, naturopath and all other snake oils. I like noting that most every chiropractice I see has some other hooey magic attached (like "we also do accupuncture!" or "we sell natural medicine!").

Canada oozes as much bullshit as America does. Bullshit overflow from them to us, maybe. Who knows? But we got it and we got it in spades.

Edit: Ah, here we go:

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/21239885#Comment_21239885
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/21239969#Comment_21239969



*Side-note: Saw my first anti-abortion protests in person there, almost choked on laughter. Never saw that in person before, and just seeing two guys with pictures of aborted fetuses standing around drinking cups of joe was perplexing and fantastic. Little slice of Americana in our own backyard.

mare_imbrium

I've heard lots of those stories too, about how this or that person was fixed with one visit. TMJ (the jaw-popping thing) is pretty prevalent in my family and my mom and I have both heard stories about people going to a chiro and getting this fixed in one or two visits, but when she was younger and thought she'd give it a shot the chiropractor told her it would take something like a year of going all the time and would cost a ridiculous amount of money. The only time I've ever gone to a chiropractor was for some shoulder pain I was having when I was pretty newly pregnant for the first time (he was recommended by some friends of mine) and he gave me a couple of adjustments and then tried to sell me on the nerve-blockages-cause-every-medical-ailment deal and, completely unasked for, suggested I pay $800 for some kind of weekly or every-other-weekly program of adjustments so that I would have a comfortable pregnancy. I never went back there.

Now I'm pregnant for the third time and I've been getting a lot of people (including midwives) suggesting that I see a chiropractor, not for aches and pains or sublaxations or anything like that, but because it's now apparently touted as part of making sure your baby isn't malpositioned for birth. Especially because my second was posterior (if I remember correctly that means the baby is face up and so the big round part of the back of the baby's head is pushed into your back). I wasn't really down with this idea because of previous bad experiences with chiropractors (and I have never had an insurance that covers them and in my experience it was quite expensive) but reading this thread has made me less so.

bowen

Well to be fair, Dr. is only extended to MD (and other non PhD degrees) out of courtesy and history, and because it's super awkward to correct patients when they call you Dr. So-and-So and go "no sorry I'm only an MD."

I have no problem with doctorate level professionals being call Doctor, that is, after all, what that title is there for.

Asiina

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

DevoutlyApathetic

Asiina wrote:

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

That's just a weird argument. I don't care how hard other people worked, what is so laudable about the hard work specifically involved in getting a doctorate?

I mean, a Chiropractor with a PhD could have worked super duper double plus hard but I'm not calling him "Doctor".

mrt144

Asiina wrote:

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

I call 2 of my friends what they are; unemployed.

Asiina

DevoutlyApathetic wrote:

Asiina wrote:

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

That's just a weird argument. I don't care how hard other people worked, what is so laudable about the hard work specifically involved in getting a doctorate?

I mean, a Chiropractor with a PhD could have worked super duper double plus hard but I'm not calling him "Doctor".

It's a weird argument that a title you are legally allowed to hold is a douchebag thing to ask for? Getting a doctorate lets you be called doctor, that's all there is to it. If a person got an education at an accredited institution, where they fulfilled all requirements to complete their doctorate and get their degree, then they are a doctor. It's just a fact. Just because dumb people think that all doctors are MDs doesn't make it true.

Dehumanized

i'm pretty sure if i was a lawyer i'd insist people use esq.

DevoutlyApathetic

Asiina wrote:

DevoutlyApathetic wrote:

Asiina wrote:

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

That's just a weird argument. I don't care how hard other people worked, what is so laudable about the hard work specifically involved in getting a doctorate?

I mean, a Chiropractor with a PhD could have worked super duper double plus hard but I'm not calling him "Doctor".

It's a weird argument that a title you are legally allowed to hold is a douchebag thing to ask for? Getting a doctorate lets you be called doctor, that's all there is to it. If a person got an education at an accredited institution, where they fulfilled all requirements to complete their doctorate and get their degree, then they are a doctor. It's just a fact. Just because dumb people think that all doctors are MDs doesn't make it true.

Listen, I'm going to have to insist that you change the reference to me in the quote tags above to Mister DevoutlyApathetic. I clearly have a penis and you are required to respect and acknowledge that every time you address me.

Variable

Mister DevoutlyApathetic wrote: »

Asiina wrote:

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

That's just a weird argument. I don't care how hard other people worked, what is so laudable about the hard work specifically involved in getting a doctorate?

I mean, a Chiropractor with a PhD could have worked super duper double plus hard but I'm not calling him "Doctor".

refusing to call people a title they earned and request be used is a weird argument. because you've decided it makes them an asshole.

DevoutlyApathetic

Variable wrote:

Mister DevoutlyApathetic wrote: »

Asiina wrote:

While I don't think I'll really care once I'm done my PhD, if you get a doctorate, you should be allowed to insist that people call you doctor. You worked hard for that title, why are you an asshole for wanting people to use it?

That's just a weird argument. I don't care how hard other people worked, what is so laudable about the hard work specifically involved in getting a doctorate?

I mean, a Chiropractor with a PhD could have worked super duper double plus hard but I'm not calling him "Doctor".

refusing to call people a title they earned and request be used is a weird argument. because you've decided it makes them an asshole.

I'm more taking issue with the argument that it is because of the hard work they've done. There are a host of implied value judgements in there.

I refer to my personal physician as "Doctor" because it is the socially acceptable thing to do. It has nothing to do with the amount of work he has done at any given time.

rndmhero

I find the beef that PhDs and the people who work with them have over the title to be amusing but ultimately inconsequential. It's personal preference and semantics, and at the end of the day, all it does is ruffle some peoples' feathers.

I do have a serious problem with the aforementioned nurses with DNPs insisting on wearing white coats and being addressed as "doctor." Hell, I've even seen some who have it embroidered on their coats, as in "Doctor McTwatwad"; even MDs don't do that. It's confusing as hell to patients and disrupts the flow of care, and it puts you in awkward situations of having to explain that so and so isn't actually a physician.