Yeah if you want to talk about 4-II make a new thread, it's just eating up pages in this thread at this point. Too many people have too many different ideas and are just trying to use this thread as an echo chamber, so there's no point it rambling about it here.
We're aware that 4E exists and some of that stuff we might someday want to consider looking at the possibility of including in the expanded rules set as an optional modular component. Maybe.
The real takeaway I got from the answers is that 5E sounds like it's really early in development. As in, they're not much farther than where we got over the last few pages of this thread. All we would need to do is cut out some pages from various PHBs and put them in a PDF and we'd be pretty much on par.
Honestly if it's really taken them this long to just start to figure out the Basic Four then I wonder how drastic of a change they're going to make with the rules. It almost makes me a little hopeful that 5E might have some real thought put into it.
Yea, that Ro3 struck me as "Hey..I've mentioned things that sound like they might have had a cousin who once played a 4e demo. How can you doubt we have your interests at heart?"
UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
One thing I wanted to see in 4E's replacement, starting from early on while playing 4th: Dropping ability scores entirely and sticking with ability mods. Scores are purely a superficial carry-over of 2ed's ability score charts and just makes point-buy unintuitive.
One thing I wanted to see in 4E's replacement, starting from early on while playing 4th: Dropping ability scores entirely and sticking with ability mods. Scores are purely a superficial carry-over of 2ed's ability score charts and just makes point-buy unintuitive.
With most of their rhetoric surrounding the word "iconic", I wouldn't expect to see this happen in 5E.
Ability Scores can be kept as long as they actually do something. Otherwise they're sort of silly.
From what I've heard of non-NDA-breaking comments from those involved in 5e's testing and development we shouldn't really be paying too much attention to the articles on the site. I'm not sure what purpose exactly they're meant to serve but it sounds like they aren't doing a good job of showing us the direction the game looks to be headed in.
From what I've heard of non-NDA-breaking comments from those involved in 5e's testing and development we shouldn't really be paying too much attention to the articles on the site. I'm not sure what purpose exactly they're meant to serve but it sounds like they aren't doing a good job of showing us the direction the game looks to be headed in.
For one thing, they haven't mentioned CCGs even once...
One thing I wanted to see in 4E's replacement, starting from early on while playing 4th: Dropping ability scores entirely and sticking with ability mods. Scores are purely a superficial carry-over of 2ed's ability score charts and just makes point-buy unintuitive.
With most of their rhetoric surrounding the word "iconic", I wouldn't expect to see this happen in 5E.
Exactly what I was thinking and the reason I'm not too keen on what's been said on the 5th Edition articles. Whether they're accurate portrayals of the development or not it's really generating some negative press.
4th was the MMO, 5th will be the CCG. instead of monthly payments, they go directly for the slot machine route.
I can honestly see them sitting there for weeks doing a whinny dance of "but if we make it all carrrd based, then people will just print out the caaaarrrrrrds like gamma world!"
What I don't understand is what design direction they could sensibly choose. They've made it clear it's not just 4.25 (which would have made me happy).
The 3.75 people have Pathfinder. Old schoolers have any number of grognard-nostalgia or grognard-modernized variants out there.
Yeah I think it needs as grand of reinvention as 4th was to 3.5. cant be 4th, cant be 3.5, cant be pathfinder, gotta hit new notes on it and hope it sticks.
edit: Could that be the strategy? and then reprint first edition (out soon right?) for nostolgia to show how things have come and improved and changed, just in time to hit them with the next evolution?
This was kind of my point earlier in the thread - 5e, from their rhetoric, sounds like an edition for no one. The people who actually want to buy new books (new players, people who just want 4BetterEdition, etc.) are being left out in the cold while WotC does everything they can to coax back the people with no interest in new books.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
MY vote, were I king of WotC, at this point would be for 5E to either be some kind of 4.5 refinement and build up from Essentials (though this really is not needed for a few more years even with Essentials muddling things), or basically do Swords & Wizardry and supplement the hell out of it to make it more like one edition or another.
Really, the reason I surprisingly liked 4th so much is because it took the muddled mess of 2nd/3rd and pushed it in the opposite direction I would have taken it; I was big into light skill-based RPGs at the time and was turned off by the clunky counter-intuitiveness of levels, classes, hp, AC, and so on. Then 4e took all that, built it into a transparent self-contained framework, and suddenly it was like 'oh, this is pretty fun when it's designed to work consistently'.
The 5e leak info has some interesting attempts to obfuscate its 4e elements as well as hide terminology, very much the wrong direction for making such a complicated game able to bring in new players.
My FLGS has lots its initial enthusiasm for 5E, and may instead focus on the Iron Kingdoms stuff coming out later this year, since they already have a strong Warmachines and Hordes group every week. We'll probably have a flurry of "may as well what the hell" when 5E does come out, of course, but WotC"s handling of things in general has killed a lot of brand enthusiasm.
Apparently RPGPundit is a "paid consultant" on 5e. That news itself and the post both support that 5e is going to be old-school and involve all sorts of silly trappings that are there because by god they were there in the old days.
1) He's built a presence around himself out of calling storygamers "Swine" (with a capital S, because that's his cult identity) and pointing out whenever possible how they (and the Forge) are the worst people in the world. Even people who agree recognize that he's an insufferable asshole about his vitriolic shitting on a game style.
2) He's horrifically set in his OSR ways. Which is fine, but it's contextually relevant.
Basically, though, due to #1 alone, if Wizards gave him a dime it's the worst decision they've made during 5e to date for even being associated with him. I don't agree with the D&D with Porn Stars guy on much of anything but he seems like he'd at least be interesting to talk to in the right environment.
3DS: 2466-2307-8384 PSN: bssteph Steam:bsstephanTwitch:bsstephan Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e Occasional words about games:my site
1) He's built a presence around himself out of calling storygamers "Swine" (with a capital S, because that's his cult identity) and pointing out whenever possible how they (and the Forge) are the worst people in the world. Even people who agree recognize that he's an insufferable asshole about his vitriolic shitting on a game style.
2) He's horrifically set in his OSR ways. Which is fine, but it's contextually relevant.
Basically, though, due to #1 alone, if Wizards gave him a dime it's the worst decision they've made during 5e to date for even being associated with him. I don't agree with the D&D with Porn Stars guy on much of anything but he seems like he'd at least be interesting to talk to in the right environment.
Zak S (from D&D with porn stars) was bought an account over at SA so he could talk to some of the goons there instead of going back and forth in his blog comments.
Zak S seems like an interesting dude his drawings and ideas reveal a kind of twisted genious. He definitely loves his old school stuff though. Like he draws these ridiculously huge dungeons, player sheets have the bare minimum on them, lots of rooms with gotcha traps and rooms containing weird scenarios. I wouldn't mind playing in on of his game but I don't think I'd want to primarily play that kind of system.
1) He's built a presence around himself out of calling storygamers "Swine" (with a capital S, because that's his cult identity) and pointing out whenever possible how they (and the Forge) are the worst people in the world. Even people who agree recognize that he's an insufferable asshole about his vitriolic shitting on a game style.
2) He's horrifically set in his OSR ways. Which is fine, but it's contextually relevant.
Basically, though, due to #1 alone, if Wizards gave him a dime it's the worst decision they've made during 5e to date for even being associated with him. I don't agree with the D&D with Porn Stars guy on much of anything but he seems like he'd at least be interesting to talk to in the right environment.
Zak S (from D&D with porn stars) was bought an account over at SA so he could talk to some of the goons there instead of going back and forth in his blog comments.
Basically RPGPundit is an insufferable grognard who tells everyone else they're playing their fantasy elves wrong. Got it. Never need to follow his tweets.
Oh and yeah it reflects badly on WotC's decision making but at this point that's rehashing already established grounds.
Basically RPGPundit is an insufferable grognard who tells everyone else they're playing their fantasy elves wrong. Got it. Never need to follow his tweets.
Yes. And I'd be surprised if he tweets. Where would he have room to pretentiously tell you what he's smoking?
3DS: 2466-2307-8384 PSN: bssteph Steam:bsstephanTwitch:bsstephan Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e Occasional words about games:my site
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited April 2012
Yeah, I had no idea who he was until last night. Read his Xanga for like a half hour and was amazed at how much of cockgobbler he was.
Then again, I'm a recent convert to the herd he refers to as Swine.
One thing I wanted to see in 4E's replacement, starting from early on while playing 4th: Dropping ability scores entirely and sticking with ability mods. Scores are purely a superficial carry-over of 2ed's ability score charts and just makes point-buy unintuitive.
With most of their rhetoric surrounding the word "iconic", I wouldn't expect to see this happen in 5E.
Can't get rid of any of the outdated notions of what an rpg should have, levels, hp, ability stats etc, because they are iconic. This is why you'll never see real innovation from this line of RPGs
Also the new blog is showing a looooot of potential.
I don't get it, aside from the ability to choose your skills (from a list of skillsets, rather than a list of classes?) it doesn't sound like anything new. And without any discussion of a guideline or an opportunity cost in the "choose whatever skills and feats you want" option, it just sounds like the obvious choice is to polish the character rather than using the kits. And aside from (apparently?) dropping the idea of class skills, how does this differ from the recommendations that 3e/4e made in each class?
So I don't see the point in the kits, other than speeding up chargen, which, really, that's needed? Oh right. Their apparent infatuation with con/store gameplay over others.
Also, doesn't that kind of customization deconstruct the point of the (iconic!!11) classes mechanism a bit?
3DS: 2466-2307-8384 PSN: bssteph Steam:bsstephanTwitch:bsstephan Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e Occasional words about games:my site
In addition, hopefully the implied decision between choosing a skill for being able to cook a meal and choosing a skill for speaking Goblin or running twice as long is either me misreading the section or just a really bad example.
bss on
3DS: 2466-2307-8384 PSN: bssteph Steam:bsstephanTwitch:bsstephan Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e Occasional words about games:my site
Well, again, quick character generation is useful. Some people don't really want to get into all that stuff, and just want to play a simple concept. Bombarding that person with "okay now choose your class features. Okay now choose your skills. Okay now choose your feats. Okay now choose your powers. Okay now choose..." can wear that person down and feel more complicated than it needs to feel. Saying "Okay, you just want to play a dwarf fighter? Here you go." makes the game easier for newer players to get in on the ground level. After they get some experience, then they can play something a little more complicated (if they want to). It's much like how the Essentials characters offered easier starting points for equally effective characters.
And we're not yet sure exactly how it's all going to work. Sure, it may just be a system for prefab skill and feat lists, but it might also offer additional abilities. They could easily use themes to set up a system similar to the 4e MC system. Where you've dabbled, but you're not really a member of another class. Wizard who can stand up in melee? There's a theme for that. Fighter who can cast a couple of cantrips or maybe a simple spell? Theme.
Like I said, lot of potential. I'm cautiously optimistic about how it will look in the end. They're still in development, so it's hard to get a solid idea of how the mechanic will look, because the mechanic probably isn't solidified yet.
So if I'm reading the tweets correctly, I'm seeing that grids and minis are not in the core rules, because it makes it harder to play DnD while camping.
Is this...actually a concern?
Also amusing: "How quickly do you think Paizo is going to publish 4.25?" "No comment"
Posts
We're aware that 4E exists and some of that stuff we might someday want to consider looking at the possibility of including in the expanded rules set as an optional modular component. Maybe.
The real takeaway I got from the answers is that 5E sounds like it's really early in development. As in, they're not much farther than where we got over the last few pages of this thread. All we would need to do is cut out some pages from various PHBs and put them in a PDF and we'd be pretty much on par.
Fuck you, Gnomes!
No that was Amigu, I'm just agreeing with the consensus that if a real, in-depth debate should take place, it should get its own thread.
With most of their rhetoric surrounding the word "iconic", I wouldn't expect to see this happen in 5E.
From what I've heard of non-NDA-breaking comments from those involved in 5e's testing and development we shouldn't really be paying too much attention to the articles on the site. I'm not sure what purpose exactly they're meant to serve but it sounds like they aren't doing a good job of showing us the direction the game looks to be headed in.
SoogaGames Blog
For one thing, they haven't mentioned CCGs even once...
SoogaGames Blog
Well they do already have a Chinese video game company working on the art.
Exactly what I was thinking and the reason I'm not too keen on what's been said on the 5th Edition articles. Whether they're accurate portrayals of the development or not it's really generating some negative press.
I can honestly see them sitting there for weeks doing a whinny dance of "but if we make it all carrrd based, then people will just print out the caaaarrrrrrds like gamma world!"
The 3.75 people have Pathfinder. Old schoolers have any number of grognard-nostalgia or grognard-modernized variants out there.
edit: Could that be the strategy? and then reprint first edition (out soon right?) for nostolgia to show how things have come and improved and changed, just in time to hit them with the next evolution?
Really, the reason I surprisingly liked 4th so much is because it took the muddled mess of 2nd/3rd and pushed it in the opposite direction I would have taken it; I was big into light skill-based RPGs at the time and was turned off by the clunky counter-intuitiveness of levels, classes, hp, AC, and so on. Then 4e took all that, built it into a transparent self-contained framework, and suddenly it was like 'oh, this is pretty fun when it's designed to work consistently'.
The 5e leak info has some interesting attempts to obfuscate its 4e elements as well as hide terminology, very much the wrong direction for making such a complicated game able to bring in new players.
Apparently RPGPundit is a "paid consultant" on 5e. That news itself and the post both support that 5e is going to be old-school and involve all sorts of silly trappings that are there because by god they were there in the old days.
On the consultant side, apparently the D&D with Porn Stars guy is in on it too: http://www.dndwithpornstars.blogspot.ca/2012/04/so-wotcs-hired-me-to-work-on-5th.html
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
Here's what you need to know:
1) He's built a presence around himself out of calling storygamers "Swine" (with a capital S, because that's his cult identity) and pointing out whenever possible how they (and the Forge) are the worst people in the world. Even people who agree recognize that he's an insufferable asshole about his vitriolic shitting on a game style.
2) He's horrifically set in his OSR ways. Which is fine, but it's contextually relevant.
Basically, though, due to #1 alone, if Wizards gave him a dime it's the worst decision they've made during 5e to date for even being associated with him. I don't agree with the D&D with Porn Stars guy on much of anything but he seems like he'd at least be interesting to talk to in the right environment.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
Haha yeah that was me /:
I've posted up a new thread to discuss this without derailing the current thread.
Here
Zak S (from D&D with porn stars) was bought an account over at SA so he could talk to some of the goons there instead of going back and forth in his blog comments.
He managed to get banned within, like, the hour.
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
Morbo demands linkage
Oh and yeah it reflects badly on WotC's decision making but at this point that's rehashing already established grounds.
Yes. And I'd be surprised if he tweets. Where would he have room to pretentiously tell you what he's smoking?
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
Then again, I'm a recent convert to the herd he refers to as Swine.
Burning Wheel FTW!
I don't get it, aside from the ability to choose your skills (from a list of skillsets, rather than a list of classes?) it doesn't sound like anything new. And without any discussion of a guideline or an opportunity cost in the "choose whatever skills and feats you want" option, it just sounds like the obvious choice is to polish the character rather than using the kits. And aside from (apparently?) dropping the idea of class skills, how does this differ from the recommendations that 3e/4e made in each class?
So I don't see the point in the kits, other than speeding up chargen, which, really, that's needed? Oh right. Their apparent infatuation with con/store gameplay over others.
Also, doesn't that kind of customization deconstruct the point of the (iconic!!11) classes mechanism a bit?
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
Tabletop:13th Age (mm-mmm), D&D 4e
Occasional words about games: my site
And we're not yet sure exactly how it's all going to work. Sure, it may just be a system for prefab skill and feat lists, but it might also offer additional abilities. They could easily use themes to set up a system similar to the 4e MC system. Where you've dabbled, but you're not really a member of another class. Wizard who can stand up in melee? There's a theme for that. Fighter who can cast a couple of cantrips or maybe a simple spell? Theme.
Like I said, lot of potential. I'm cautiously optimistic about how it will look in the end. They're still in development, so it's hard to get a solid idea of how the mechanic will look, because the mechanic probably isn't solidified yet.
http://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/#dndnext
Is this...actually a concern?
Also amusing: "How quickly do you think Paizo is going to publish 4.25?" "No comment"