I think part of the conceptual problem is that since one starts at 1200 Elo, then one assumes that must be average. I think 1200 is a relatively random middle ground chosen as a starting point.
From what I've seen of 1000 Elo(climbed out last season and from some streams this season), that being average seems about right. Mostly people with very loose mechanics, people that know some key ideas but really not how to apply them for the scenario in front of them. Maybe they've seen some tournaments or something and they try to copy paste what they saw with what's happening in front of them. Obviously that won't work. But yeah, that's the average player IMO.
Edit: Riven is Viper, duh!
I think I missed the tournament where the team just afked in their base because they were down a couple kills
Trolls are in all Elo.
<sarcasm> Yes those are exactly the plays I'm talking about. </sarcasm>
Also pretty much every team does that at some point. But instead of going AFK, they just doggedly play terribly because they are demoralized. Curse did this last night and from what I hear(not confirming or anything) Gosu Pepper from M5 rage quit a few days before.
You can also see some of the more popular streamers rage-afk sometimes in soloq, used to happen a lot more pre-Tribunal. AFK troll/rager/leaver at 2000+ elo, used to happen pretty frequently on streams.
Yeah. LOL was simply more fun in how it was played in 2010.
Now, the overall skill of players has gone up over time (disclaimer: I'm sure some of this is observational bias since I'm above average in every queue's Elo, but still), but the meta is so, so stale right now. And the worst thing is, it is the meta because it's so good you either have to play it, or play to counter it. Every single fucking game, from ranked to blind pick normal, you have to ask yourself "Am I going to outfarm their AD+Support bottom, or am I going to try to disrupt their AD+Support bottom using another tactic?" Occasionally, through sheer fucking luck, you'll end up playing something fresh like you both running kill lanes bottom, but it's a rarity on par with a perfect diamond.
As a perfect example:
Why I play Mord on release: "Mord is really cool and does tons of damage!"
Why I play Mord now: "Mord's ghost allows me to use the enemy AD carry's farm to their own disadvantage. And he's really cool and does tons of damage."
I think this is mostly nostalgia plus the general buzz of playing a game closer to release. When the game is new there's a lot of random ways to try and do things and towards the end of the lifecycle all of the silliness is roughly beaten out of it. Like Diablo 2 or Marvel vs Capcom 2. As those games got older the best way of doing things was eventually figured out. I imagine Marvel was a lot more fun before everyone used the same four characters, but that doesn't mean Megaman/Strider/Spiderman was ever a good team.
It's not nostalgia, games where more champs / strats are viable are more fun, and more champs were viable before people decided there was one true strat. I'd compare it most to FEAR, where everyone pretty quickly figured out that the g3 was slightly too good while also being by far the easiest weapon in the game, so you'd see like 75% of the server run that despite everything being quite viable.
Just to be clear, people aren't wrong, as you can see in any game where your AD carry doesn't die or miss a last hit for the first 20 minutes, but before the meta optimized itself, there was a greater focus on teamwork / implementation than one true wayism.
That isn't to say that nothing was ever terrible, as release XZ or the SOTO Panth craze*, or when AOE got a touch too popular, or Eve / Shaco ever (half fixed now), but we've gone from flavor of the month to flavor of the year, and it's rather tedious.
That's part of why I like All Random, because it forces champs outside of the top 20 to get used, so you get to see scandalously absurd (sarcasm) things like Ashe mid (which was popular for a long time).
* For anyone who didn't know, Panth was especially powerful at one point, so Panth would get fed a bit with a sword of the occult, then drop onto your tower, kill you from 100-0 while tanking tower hits without any help from that lane, and walk away with another two stacks.
questions for the soloqueue vets. I'm trying to raise my elo so I can play with and against better players:
I'm best at support and jungling, with casters and ranged AD tied right behind that. I'm comfortable playing ranged dps types, but I feel like the other two roles are my forte.
Does playing support or jungle give my team the better chance to win?
Should I try to improve my AP/AD instead?
I've also noticed that at my elo (1100) there's a severe lack of communication, even in the draft. Should I try and coordinate my teams, or just let people do what they want and focus on what I'm doing?
I've only played maybe 20 ranked games so far, and while I realize the community can be terrible at every elo, the rating I'm at now contains people who have significantly less skill and smaller brains than the people i get matched up against in normals. It's hard to queue ranked when I know I'll have a better game and more fun if I just queue up for a normal.
in the cesspool of soloqueue ranked, AD ranged is really tough. Played a game last as graves where my support nautilis was trying to initiate fights from level 1, when i'm trying to farm and stay safe. he spent the rest of the game screaming about how i was bringing no dps to the table when he'd initiate... and it was like ... DUDE we're lvl3, lets hide out by our tower and farm and not get killed.
Incredibly frustrating.
AP Mid, Solotop, jungle are the best places to be impactful at low elo.
Yeah. LOL was simply more fun in how it was played in 2010.
Now, the overall skill of players has gone up over time (disclaimer: I'm sure some of this is observational bias since I'm above average in every queue's Elo, but still), but the meta is so, so stale right now. And the worst thing is, it is the meta because it's so good you either have to play it, or play to counter it. Every single fucking game, from ranked to blind pick normal, you have to ask yourself "Am I going to outfarm their AD+Support bottom, or am I going to try to disrupt their AD+Support bottom using another tactic?" Occasionally, through sheer fucking luck, you'll end up playing something fresh like you both running kill lanes bottom, but it's a rarity on par with a perfect diamond.
As a perfect example:
Why I play Mord on release: "Mord is really cool and does tons of damage!"
Why I play Mord now: "Mord's ghost allows me to use the enemy AD carry's farm to their own disadvantage. And he's really cool and does tons of damage."
Yeah, when pushing was cool, Mordekaiser and Malzahar were regarded as being good. Now they make people make confused faces or angry noises when you pick them.
what's the history of Malz? he's an incredible pusher, still... just keep your E going on every minion wave, and you'll get them all. Has he been nerfed/reworked into shittyness? I mean... he's actually fun to play, and you can actually pull off a AD/AP hybrid with him to get your voidlings chomping at 200+/hit...
questions for the soloqueue vets. I'm trying to raise my elo so I can play with and against better players:
I'm best at support and jungling, with casters and ranged AD tied right behind that. I'm comfortable playing ranged dps types, but I feel like the other two roles are my forte.
Does playing support or jungle give my team the better chance to win?
Should I try to improve my AP/AD instead?
I've also noticed that at my elo (1100) there's a severe lack of communication, even in the draft. Should I try and coordinate my teams, or just let people do what they want and focus on what I'm doing?
I've only played maybe 20 ranked games so far, and while I realize the community can be terrible at every elo, the rating I'm at now contains people who have significantly less skill and smaller brains than the people i get matched up against in normals. It's hard to queue ranked when I know I'll have a better game and more fun if I just queue up for a normal.
in the cesspool of soloqueue ranked, AD ranged is really tough. Played a game last as graves where my support nautilis was trying to initiate fights from level 1, when i'm trying to farm and stay safe. he spent the rest of the game screaming about how i was bringing no dps to the table when he'd initiate... and it was like ... DUDE we're lvl3, lets hide out by our tower and farm and not get killed.
Incredibly frustrating.
AP Mid, Solotop, jungle are the best places to be impactful at low elo.
Yeah. LOL was simply more fun in how it was played in 2010.
Now, the overall skill of players has gone up over time (disclaimer: I'm sure some of this is observational bias since I'm above average in every queue's Elo, but still), but the meta is so, so stale right now. And the worst thing is, it is the meta because it's so good you either have to play it, or play to counter it. Every single fucking game, from ranked to blind pick normal, you have to ask yourself "Am I going to outfarm their AD+Support bottom, or am I going to try to disrupt their AD+Support bottom using another tactic?" Occasionally, through sheer fucking luck, you'll end up playing something fresh like you both running kill lanes bottom, but it's a rarity on par with a perfect diamond.
As a perfect example:
Why I play Mord on release: "Mord is really cool and does tons of damage!"
Why I play Mord now: "Mord's ghost allows me to use the enemy AD carry's farm to their own disadvantage. And he's really cool and does tons of damage."
Yeah, when pushing was cool, Mordekaiser and Malzahar were regarded as being good. Now they make people make confused faces or angry noises when you pick them.
what's the history of Malz? he's an incredible pusher, still... just keep your E going on every minion wave, and you'll get them all. Has he been nerfed/reworked into shittyness? I mean... he's actually fun to play, and you can actually pull off a AD/AP hybrid with him to get your voidlings chomping at 200+/hit...
they nerfed malz's AP ratios by a very noticeable amount, while also nerfing banshee's veil to the point that everyone switched to buying a quicksilver sash in 100% of anti-mage item-purchase scenarios
he might actually be better now that the maw of malmortious exists?
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
Neither saintvicious or theoddone are jungling on their streams now.
NOW what do I do?
TheOddOne knows my pain. "AUGH! There's no last hitting in the jungle! I CAN'T DO THIS!"
i dont know who to play this week. Udyr seems intresting but ill prob fail jungle royally. dont want another AD carry so i guess thatll leave...brand or nidalee?
questions for the soloqueue vets. I'm trying to raise my elo so I can play with and against better players:
I'm best at support and jungling, with casters and ranged AD tied right behind that. I'm comfortable playing ranged dps types, but I feel like the other two roles are my forte.
Does playing support or jungle give my team the better chance to win?
Should I try to improve my AP/AD instead?
I've also noticed that at my elo (1100) there's a severe lack of communication, even in the draft. Should I try and coordinate my teams, or just let people do what they want and focus on what I'm doing?
I've only played maybe 20 ranked games so far, and while I realize the community can be terrible at every elo, the rating I'm at now contains people who have significantly less skill and smaller brains than the people i get matched up against in normals. It's hard to queue ranked when I know I'll have a better game and more fun if I just queue up for a normal.
I would like to throw a tidbit in on this conversation as well.
The goal of this game is not to gain Elo, it is to get better. You get better, you gain Elo, simple. Don't play champs because they are 'OP', or because you think you can carry with them. Play them because they are fun, and try to learn everything you can. Watch the pros, you'll see them do absolutely retarded shit in solo queue, and they'll win. They win because they have amazing map awareness and understand what objectives are available at what times. Play the roles you like the most, with the characters you like the most. I've seen supports carry games (it's rare, but it happens), so don't just brush that kind of stuff off. A good support can definitely win their team the game.
I was 1050 Elo at one point, then I found AD carry. I started duo queuing with my lane partner, softmoney, and we have gone something like 22-6, bringing us both up to about 1275 elo. If we keep playing, I believe we are 1400-1500 elo. Need to play more to prove that though.
Edit - And i like the idea of specializing in a role. Solo queue can be very hard to get what you want, but people don't often call jungler or support, iirc. Soft and I always ask for bot lane, and we have gotten it every single game so far. I think that's amazing.
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
My highest win rate in solo queue is with Support.
A lot harder for teammates to get absentmindedly caught when you have the entire map warded. Having a good support is one of the most effective ways to prevent giving away wins for free.
There is a big difference between "THE OTHER TEAM IS 100% IN THAT BUSH BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM" and actually seeing them. Seeing them means you wont have some teammate(s) stupidly walk into the other team.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
My highest win rate in solo queue is with Support.
A lot harder for teammates to get absentmindedly caught when you have the entire map warded. Having a good support is one of the most effective ways to prevent giving away wins for free.
There is a big difference between "THE OTHER TEAM IS 100% IN THAT BUSH BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM" and actually seeing them. Seeing them means you wont have some teammate(s) try to prove they are as good as saintvicious.
My highest win rate in solo queue is with Support.
A lot harder for teammates to get absentmindedly caught when you have the entire map warded. Having a good support is one of the most effective ways to prevent giving away wins for free.
There is a big difference between "THE OTHER TEAM IS 100% IN THAT BUSH BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM" and actually seeing them. Seeing them means you wont have some teammate(s) stupidly walk into the other team.
Oh, to add one more thing. I always get Graves, so softmoney often takes Leona and we kill all the people. We get a lot of 'dat Graves' and 'dat bot', and I have to say that softmoney sets that all up for me.
We had a game a couple days ago where I was something like 6/1 coming out of laning, but the enemy team had a warwick, a skarner and an akali. They would do everything in their power to kill me, so they would. I would die every team fight, and there was nothing my team could do about it, but I was the only one that would die. Our Udyr at the end was gushing about Leona, saying that he knew he could wait for a perfect ult, then go in and slaughter everyone. It didn't matter that I died because softmoney was a cc monster. He carried that game, not me, even though I ended up 12/6/*.
The easiest way to frustrate yourself is to NEED to have some sort of high ELO. It's only a barometer of solo queue/duo queue skill. This is why I'm enjoying the painhouses - I'm able to play with/against skilled players and have fun while not having ragers/stupidity in my game. I think most of the time I've been laning against 12-1400 players and doing fine, even though my ELO right now is about 1050 (I think, I don't really ever play ranked).
Counter jungling is so impossibly easy at low elo. People don't believe in wards. Here's how you steal all buffs. At first back, buy a ward. Drop that ward in the bush at their blue somewhere in the 5-6 minute mark so you can see the blue. You don't want to drop the ward while they might be doing it since the little warding animation is visible. Come back around 7:10. If you can see their jungler far away on the map, just do their blue if you are a fast clearer and you have some manner of escape up (flash, shyvana ult, etc). If not, just wait somewhere hidden, like the bushes behind the blue wall. Look at your smite. See how much damage it does. Then, click on the enemy blue buff. When your smite > their blue health, just press it and leave. GG.
Come back every five minutes and repeat. Or, mix it up, wait another minute or so, and then do the same thing to their red buff. Honestly, if I was just starting out in this game again I'd probably just play Shyvana all day and farm.
Hell, shaco scrub level 2 bush ganks are great for low elo, and they have a benefit of fufilling certain urges if there is too much heat from the last Amber alert too.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
My highest win rate in solo queue is with Support.
A lot harder for teammates to get absentmindedly caught when you have the entire map warded. Having a good support is one of the most effective ways to prevent giving away wins for free.
There is a big difference between "THE OTHER TEAM IS 100% IN THAT BUSH BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM" and actually seeing them. Seeing them means you wont have some teammate(s) stupidly walk into the other team.
Oh, to add one more thing. I always get Graves, so softmoney often takes Leona and we kill all the people. We get a lot of 'dat Graves' and 'dat bot', and I have to say that softmoney sets that all up for me.
We had a game a couple days ago where I was something like 6/1 coming out of laning, but the enemy team had a warwick, a skarner and an akali. They would do everything in their power to kill me, so they would. I would die every team fight, and there was nothing my team could do about it, but I was the only one that would die. Our Udyr at the end was gushing about Leona, saying that he knew he could wait for a perfect ult, then go in and slaughter everyone. It didn't matter that I died because softmoney was a cc monster. He carried that game, not me, even though I ended up 12/6/*.
Good supports definitely win games.
Last night in duo ranked I went 0/2/24 as Janna and Drok went 9/4/15.
I am the best support.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
My highest win rate in solo queue is with Support.
A lot harder for teammates to get absentmindedly caught when you have the entire map warded. Having a good support is one of the most effective ways to prevent giving away wins for free.
There is a big difference between "THE OTHER TEAM IS 100% IN THAT BUSH BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM" and actually seeing them. Seeing them means you wont have some teammate(s) stupidly walk into the other team.
Oh, to add one more thing. I always get Graves, so softmoney often takes Leona and we kill all the people. We get a lot of 'dat Graves' and 'dat bot', and I have to say that softmoney sets that all up for me.
We had a game a couple days ago where I was something like 6/1 coming out of laning, but the enemy team had a warwick, a skarner and an akali. They would do everything in their power to kill me, so they would. I would die every team fight, and there was nothing my team could do about it, but I was the only one that would die. Our Udyr at the end was gushing about Leona, saying that he knew he could wait for a perfect ult, then go in and slaughter everyone. It didn't matter that I died because softmoney was a cc monster. He carried that game, not me, even though I ended up 12/6/*.
Good supports definitely win games.
Definitely.
A lot of people think playing Support is a boring or passive role, but that's completely false. Support is the Playmaker for bottom lane and should be actively harassing or zoning the other team while in lane. The most passive support there is in LoL is Soraka and she plays "passively" because all she does is enable the AD Carry.
No other support should ever play like a passive Soraka. Even then, Soraka can actively harass with her autoattacks and Silence because even with bad trades she will out-sustain most opponents. Every other Support should play actively, except when you're playing against a kill comp or a hard counter. Being out-sustained shouldn't be an issue, you're given tools to balance around it. My last game I played Janna vs MF/Soraka and managed to harass them through Soraka's sustain by either me or my Corki trading whenever Janna's Shield was up. We had 3 kills bottom by level 5 and a ton more CS.
Best case scenario is when your Support trades with their AD Carry. This means your AD is farming and theirs potentially missed CS. The Support taking the damage instead of the AD is also important because if you both have to go back, your AD gets to keep farming.
I hate it when I'm playing AD and my Support is ranged and standing behind me. At the worst they should stand by the AD as it isn't the AD's job to protect the Support...
If you're playing against a kill comp or a hard counter as Support you should hover around the same distance from the opponents as your AD, preferably while providing bush control/vision, and only engage to protect your AD.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
When Gallio was on free week I tried him out as a support bot (normal blind). Had 28 assists, the enemy team hated me and my team was loving me. Felt good.
If you're playing against a kill comp or a hard counter as Support you should hover around the same distance from the opponents as your AD, preferably while providing bush control/vision, and only engage to protect your AD.
Depends on where you are and what you're facing really. If you're farming just in front of your tower, there is no way for you to have brush control even with wards. This doesn't leave space for you to be at or in front of your carry unless you've zoned them out[in which case you should be in front]. Otherwise you're going to be standing in their AA/Ability range and will get ruined by repeated harass.
that's my biggest problem with sona. i know she's a more aggressive support but i always just end up at low health and have to back to my carry to heal up slowly. maybe I'm being too aggressive but I can't realyl figure out her early game. late game doesn't matter because she still supports like a boss, but that early phase I always feel like I'm screwing up which could effect my carry negatively.
If you're playing against a kill comp or a hard counter as Support you should hover around the same distance from the opponents as your AD, preferably while providing bush control/vision, and only engage to protect your AD.
Depends on where you are and what you're facing really. If you're farming just in front of your tower, there is no way for you to have brush control even with wards. This doesn't leave space for you to be at or in front of your carry unless you've zoned them out[in which case you should be in front]. Otherwise you're going to be standing in their AA/Ability range and will get ruined by repeated harass.
Well, you prioritize being near your AD more than being in a bush. You can just ward the bush.
If you're eating AA's while near your AD, your AD should be able to land free AA's on their AD. That's usually a winning trade.
that's my biggest problem with sona. i know she's a more aggressive support but i always just end up at low health and have to back to my carry to heal up slowly. maybe I'm being too aggressive but I can't realyl figure out her early game. late game doesn't matter because she still supports like a boss, but that early phase I always feel like I'm screwing up which could effect my carry negatively.
Sona is a poke/bursty Support. You're supposed to land a Power Chord + Q then back off. If you sit there and trade blows then you're letting the opponent catch up in damage.
Also, the best time to poke an AD is when he's trying to go in for a last hit on a creep. Give him a choice of hitting either the creep, you, or backing off. If he hits the creep, you get free damage. If he didn't he misses out on CS. Don't poke an AD that's just standing there or they'll AA + Ability you back for relatively equal damage.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
that's my biggest problem with sona. i know she's a more aggressive support but i always just end up at low health and have to back to my carry to heal up slowly. maybe I'm being too aggressive but I can't realyl figure out her early game. late game doesn't matter because she still supports like a boss, but that early phase I always feel like I'm screwing up which could effect my carry negatively.
Sona was nerfed recently, and I really felt it this time. Her ult is problematic and they tried to balance her around it, so she lost a lot of her laning. She's a poke support, but her poke doesn't seem to hurt much anymore. She's still a boss come teamfights, but her laning is meh, in my opinion.
what's the history of Malz? he's an incredible pusher, still... just keep your E going on every minion wave, and you'll get them all. Has he been nerfed/reworked into shittyness? I mean... he's actually fun to play, and you can actually pull off a AD/AP hybrid with him to get your voidlings chomping at 200+/hit...
Actually, apart from the ratio tweak - of which I was unaware - he has mostly been buffed since he was released. At release he had about half the range on his ult that he does now, which was sort of simultaneously fun and crippling. What's happened to cause him issues is that QSS became a thing, Fizz and Ahri got released (they're both very difficult to keep out of your face before 6 and a pain if someone isn't stopping them from being one), and sitting around with infinite mana from leaving E on creeps is a slower pushing method than most of the competition has. Tormented Soil and Resolute Smite work much quicker than Space AIDS.
He's still a sneaky-good pick if the enemy team has a lot of skillshots, but he's just not as impressive as he used to be.
Well, you prioritize being near your AD more than being in a bush. You can just ward the bush.
If you're eating AA's while near your AD, your AD should be able to land free AA's on their AD. That's usually a winning trade.
1) Yes, i mentioned wards. If you're at your tower wards will not be enough
2) That is not how the dynamics of the lane work because of where your AD has to be in order to not take the harass you're taking.
#1 Recap.
I said to stand by the AD in a losing lane, not behind, and to provide bush control if you can.
You say you can't provide bush control when standing next to tower and that wards are not enough.
I say you can just ward the bush, but if you're at the tower than it doesn't matter who has control of the bush as long as you ward it (I meant to imply this part).
You say wards are not enough for bush control.
If your bottom is farming at tower, then bush control is irrelevant as only they can only harass from the tip of the bush and if you ward it, then you have nothing to worry about. Therefore, if you're at your tower, then a bush ward is plenty enough.
As for #2, you stand around the same range from the opponents as your AD does then if he is outside harass range, so are you. If he is in harass range, so are you. Neither of you should be within harass range of a losing lane except to last hit and letting your AD go in by himself means he eats all of the harass and you're not supporting at all.
As an AD player if a ranged support is going to just stand behind me the entire time and we're stuck at tower anyways, I'd rather they leave the lane so I can get more exp. Every ranged support should auto attack whenever the AD is trading (given similar AA ranges) and you can't do that from behind the AD. Again, this is as ranged support; a melee support in a losing lane is better off hugging the AD and peeling any committed attacks.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
what's the history of Malz? he's an incredible pusher, still... just keep your E going on every minion wave, and you'll get them all. Has he been nerfed/reworked into shittyness? I mean... he's actually fun to play, and you can actually pull off a AD/AP hybrid with him to get your voidlings chomping at 200+/hit...
Actually, apart from the ratio tweak - of which I was unaware - he has mostly been buffed since he was released. At release he had about half the range on his ult that he does now, which was sort of simultaneously fun and crippling. What's happened to cause him issues is that QSS became a thing, Fizz and Ahri got released (they're both very difficult to keep out of your face before 6 and a pain if someone isn't stopping them from being one), and sitting around with infinite mana from leaving E on creeps is a slower pushing method than most of the competition has. Tormented Soil and Resolute Smite work much quicker than Space AIDS.
He's still a sneaky-good pick if the enemy team has a lot of skillshots, but he's just not as impressive as he used to be.
Malz is also suffering from the game's mobility creep; his cast times are surprisingly slow, which makes it very hard for him to get his full combo off on an enemy that can move quickly.
Scarra hinted on stream a few weeks ago that Riot was thinking about doing something with Malzahar. I really hope they do because he's my favourite champion and needs some kind of love. The ult costs too much mana for one thing.
I always feel bad when my sons poke takes a creep or two from my carry. That's probably part of why I move up to harass so much, to make sure champs are closest.
I'm enjoying other supports right now though so I may not get back to her for a while
Scarra hinted on stream a few weeks ago that Riot was thinking about doing something with Malzahar. I really hope they do because he's my favourite champion and needs some kind of love. The ult costs too much mana for one thing.
I hope they do something with him as well, his kit is neat, although he kinda needs an escape better than a delayed hard to land skill shot silence. pushing with space aids is fun, you can get heimer levels of farm with little effort, and keep your mana up. You can even build him AD and let your voidlings do the heavy work (its not noted, but your voidlings do their base damage + 1.0x of your bonus AD. Get your CDR down, and you can multiple out at a time)
he does have a problem that he can really only nuke one person, and then he's not that useful team fighting, as everything else is a DOT or a delayed hard to land skill shot.
He's not that far off from being top tier, addition of a slow to his Q on top of the silence could do it, or even a slow on his W.
If your bottom is farming at tower, then bush control is irrelevant as only they can only harass from the tip of the bush and if you ward it, then you have nothing to worry about. Therefore, if you're at your tower, then a bush ward is plenty enough.
As for #2, you stand around the same range from the opponents as your AD does then if he is outside harass range, so are you. If he is in harass range, so are you. Neither of you should be within harass range of a losing lane except to last hit and letting your AD go in by himself means he eats all of the harass and you're not supporting at all.
As an AD player if a ranged support is going to just stand behind me the entire time and we're stuck at tower anyways, I'd rather they leave the lane so I can get more exp. Every ranged support should auto attack whenever the AD is trading (given similar AA ranges) and you can't do that from behind the AD. Again, this is as ranged support; a melee support in a losing lane is better off hugging the AD and peeling any committed attacks.
So the issue largely comes up by way of smart play around the bottom part of the lane. When creeps are at/near the tower the AD is going to want to be on the top side of the lane so they can stay as far away from brush poke and support poke while still being near enough to the creeps.
Creeps tend to bunch up around the top side of the lane leaving an area close to the tower free where the enemy support can slide* around under the creeps and reduce your zone of control. If you're next to your AD then they can pinch from the bottom and force you behind your AD and if you don't do that then you're going to eat harass that your AD cannot easily retaliate to. If you don't back off you're setting them up for an easy kill/dive as soon as they realize they can start harassing you consistently. Its for that same reason you can't simply leave the lane, because they'll dive your AD at your tower. This leaves you a bit further from the enemy, but still close enough to prevent them from diving.
This of course depends on the support they and you have because it depends on how and who you want to trade with. Janna doesn't want to take damage herself unless she still has plenty of pots. She does not benefit as much from the AD on her shield nearly as much as Graves/Sivir/Ashe/whichever AD you're playing with will and so if the enemy is focusing her half the ability of her shield is going to waste. Ditto Soraka due to the armor bonus[which enables natural sustain to be even stronger and so magnifies pots/lifesteal on your carry] and Lulu because she wants to be able to shield her carry and so give them pix[but less so on lulu]
The only ranged supports you want to be focusing their AD over themselves are Nidalee, Lux, and maybe Sona. Nidalee because she can't do anything to you without running away and Lux because she can shield herself twice very easily but not so easily with her AD. Sona because everyone gets the same bonuses Sona does, so you might as well take out the thing that does the most damage[note that this might be Sona early due to a second proc of power chord and its accompanying debuff]
Edit: And if you're Sona you want to focus more on their AD since your powerchord is more valuable applied to them.
*I originally used hook, and that is probably not the best word due to hook abilities.
I think you are trying to analyze bot lane way, way too much. Bot lane is 2v2, and the matchups are far too different to get into 'play this way' or 'play that way'. There are tons of times it makes sense to focus the support, even when everyone says 'don't focus Taric, he's too tanky'.
If you're pushed to your tower and sitting on the top side of the lane to avoid the bushes, you are prime to get ganked/dove by the jungler. There are times it makes sense to ward the bot bush when you are pushed to tower, and there are times it isn't necessary.
Sometimes I like to push all the way to tower, sometimes I like to push to the end of the bushes, sometimes I like to have the lane in the middle, sometimes I like to have it at my tower. There are more matchups and possible scenarios in bot lane than any other lane and it just doesn't work to talk about how to make this or that work.
You can definitely say 'Leona is an aggressive support', but again, she won't always play like that. Bot lane is more about feel and chemistry than about matchups or positioning. You can make almost anything work if you are both on the same page and understand the way the carry and support might synergize.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited April 2012
I never said stand on top of or next to your AD. I said to stand an equal distance from the other team as your AD. Your AD can be closer to the river while you sit in a bush and still pull this off.
If smart players ignore the Support when you're both targets of equal opportunity, then you might as well be just as close as your AD since smart players will ignore you anyways. Even if they do attack the support, it's better that the Support goes back to heal than the AD.
In the first few levels, a Janna should be shielding herself to trade/poke so the AD can focus on farming unharassed. With proper execution, the Janna takes 0 damage because she'll disengage right before or as the shield breaks. At this point auto attacks do most of the damage anyways. Of course, I'll prioritize Shields on my AD if they position aggressively to zone out the opponents. Match up context is way too important to describe a single general play style for any champion.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
The best choice for support is obviously someone who can 2v1, so that your carry can farm creeps in peace while you're farming the enemy bot lane. Perfect solution.
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Trolls are in all Elo.
<sarcasm> Yes those are exactly the plays I'm talking about. </sarcasm>
Also pretty much every team does that at some point. But instead of going AFK, they just doggedly play terribly because they are demoralized. Curse did this last night and from what I hear(not confirming or anything) Gosu Pepper from M5 rage quit a few days before.
You can also see some of the more popular streamers rage-afk sometimes in soloq, used to happen a lot more pre-Tribunal. AFK troll/rager/leaver at 2000+ elo, used to happen pretty frequently on streams.
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Possibly. But yours doesn't have any cool links.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
It's not nostalgia, games where more champs / strats are viable are more fun, and more champs were viable before people decided there was one true strat. I'd compare it most to FEAR, where everyone pretty quickly figured out that the g3 was slightly too good while also being by far the easiest weapon in the game, so you'd see like 75% of the server run that despite everything being quite viable.
Just to be clear, people aren't wrong, as you can see in any game where your AD carry doesn't die or miss a last hit for the first 20 minutes, but before the meta optimized itself, there was a greater focus on teamwork / implementation than one true wayism.
That isn't to say that nothing was ever terrible, as release XZ or the SOTO Panth craze*, or when AOE got a touch too popular, or Eve / Shaco ever (half fixed now), but we've gone from flavor of the month to flavor of the year, and it's rather tedious.
That's part of why I like All Random, because it forces champs outside of the top 20 to get used, so you get to see scandalously absurd (sarcasm) things like Ashe mid (which was popular for a long time).
* For anyone who didn't know, Panth was especially powerful at one point, so Panth would get fed a bit with a sword of the occult, then drop onto your tower, kill you from 100-0 while tanking tower hits without any help from that lane, and walk away with another two stacks.
in the cesspool of soloqueue ranked, AD ranged is really tough. Played a game last as graves where my support nautilis was trying to initiate fights from level 1, when i'm trying to farm and stay safe. he spent the rest of the game screaming about how i was bringing no dps to the table when he'd initiate... and it was like ... DUDE we're lvl3, lets hide out by our tower and farm and not get killed.
Incredibly frustrating.
AP Mid, Solotop, jungle are the best places to be impactful at low elo.
what's the history of Malz? he's an incredible pusher, still... just keep your E going on every minion wave, and you'll get them all. Has he been nerfed/reworked into shittyness? I mean... he's actually fun to play, and you can actually pull off a AD/AP hybrid with him to get your voidlings chomping at 200+/hit...
Joe's Stream.
they nerfed malz's AP ratios by a very noticeable amount, while also nerfing banshee's veil to the point that everyone switched to buying a quicksilver sash in 100% of anti-mage item-purchase scenarios
he might actually be better now that the maw of malmortious exists?
NOW what do I do?
TheOddOne knows my pain. "AUGH! There's no last hitting in the jungle! I CAN'T DO THIS!"
Crovax.436 Steam: Crovaxan
Ashe, Brand, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks, Hecarim, Nidalee, Singed, Udyr, Vayne, Zilean
Excited to try Brand, Hecarim, and Nidalee myself.
Crunch Crunch! Munch Munch! Chomp Chomp! Gulp!
I would like to throw a tidbit in on this conversation as well.
The goal of this game is not to gain Elo, it is to get better. You get better, you gain Elo, simple. Don't play champs because they are 'OP', or because you think you can carry with them. Play them because they are fun, and try to learn everything you can. Watch the pros, you'll see them do absolutely retarded shit in solo queue, and they'll win. They win because they have amazing map awareness and understand what objectives are available at what times. Play the roles you like the most, with the characters you like the most. I've seen supports carry games (it's rare, but it happens), so don't just brush that kind of stuff off. A good support can definitely win their team the game.
I was 1050 Elo at one point, then I found AD carry. I started duo queuing with my lane partner, softmoney, and we have gone something like 22-6, bringing us both up to about 1275 elo. If we keep playing, I believe we are 1400-1500 elo. Need to play more to prove that though.
Edit - And i like the idea of specializing in a role. Solo queue can be very hard to get what you want, but people don't often call jungler or support, iirc. Soft and I always ask for bot lane, and we have gotten it every single game so far. I think that's amazing.
A lot harder for teammates to get absentmindedly caught when you have the entire map warded. Having a good support is one of the most effective ways to prevent giving away wins for free.
There is a big difference between "THE OTHER TEAM IS 100% IN THAT BUSH BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM" and actually seeing them. Seeing them means you wont have some teammate(s) stupidly walk into the other team.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
you can see your reports?
Crovax.436 Steam: Crovaxan
Oh, to add one more thing. I always get Graves, so softmoney often takes Leona and we kill all the people. We get a lot of 'dat Graves' and 'dat bot', and I have to say that softmoney sets that all up for me.
We had a game a couple days ago where I was something like 6/1 coming out of laning, but the enemy team had a warwick, a skarner and an akali. They would do everything in their power to kill me, so they would. I would die every team fight, and there was nothing my team could do about it, but I was the only one that would die. Our Udyr at the end was gushing about Leona, saying that he knew he could wait for a perfect ult, then go in and slaughter everyone. It didn't matter that I died because softmoney was a cc monster. He carried that game, not me, even though I ended up 12/6/*.
Good supports definitely win games.
Hell, shaco scrub level 2 bush ganks are great for low elo, and they have a benefit of fufilling certain urges if there is too much heat from the last Amber alert too.
Last night in duo ranked I went 0/2/24 as Janna and Drok went 9/4/15.
I am the best support.
Definitely.
A lot of people think playing Support is a boring or passive role, but that's completely false. Support is the Playmaker for bottom lane and should be actively harassing or zoning the other team while in lane. The most passive support there is in LoL is Soraka and she plays "passively" because all she does is enable the AD Carry.
No other support should ever play like a passive Soraka. Even then, Soraka can actively harass with her autoattacks and Silence because even with bad trades she will out-sustain most opponents. Every other Support should play actively, except when you're playing against a kill comp or a hard counter. Being out-sustained shouldn't be an issue, you're given tools to balance around it. My last game I played Janna vs MF/Soraka and managed to harass them through Soraka's sustain by either me or my Corki trading whenever Janna's Shield was up. We had 3 kills bottom by level 5 and a ton more CS.
Best case scenario is when your Support trades with their AD Carry. This means your AD is farming and theirs potentially missed CS. The Support taking the damage instead of the AD is also important because if you both have to go back, your AD gets to keep farming.
I hate it when I'm playing AD and my Support is ranged and standing behind me. At the worst they should stand by the AD as it isn't the AD's job to protect the Support...
If you're playing against a kill comp or a hard counter as Support you should hover around the same distance from the opponents as your AD, preferably while providing bush control/vision, and only engage to protect your AD.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Depends on where you are and what you're facing really. If you're farming just in front of your tower, there is no way for you to have brush control even with wards. This doesn't leave space for you to be at or in front of your carry unless you've zoned them out[in which case you should be in front]. Otherwise you're going to be standing in their AA/Ability range and will get ruined by repeated harass.
Well, you prioritize being near your AD more than being in a bush. You can just ward the bush.
If you're eating AA's while near your AD, your AD should be able to land free AA's on their AD. That's usually a winning trade.
Sona is a poke/bursty Support. You're supposed to land a Power Chord + Q then back off. If you sit there and trade blows then you're letting the opponent catch up in damage.
Also, the best time to poke an AD is when he's trying to go in for a last hit on a creep. Give him a choice of hitting either the creep, you, or backing off. If he hits the creep, you get free damage. If he didn't he misses out on CS. Don't poke an AD that's just standing there or they'll AA + Ability you back for relatively equal damage.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Sona was nerfed recently, and I really felt it this time. Her ult is problematic and they tried to balance her around it, so she lost a lot of her laning. She's a poke support, but her poke doesn't seem to hurt much anymore. She's still a boss come teamfights, but her laning is meh, in my opinion.
1) Yes, i mentioned wards. If you're at your tower wards will not be enough
2) That is not how the dynamics of the lane work because of where your AD has to be in order to not take the harass you're taking.
Actually, apart from the ratio tweak - of which I was unaware - he has mostly been buffed since he was released. At release he had about half the range on his ult that he does now, which was sort of simultaneously fun and crippling. What's happened to cause him issues is that QSS became a thing, Fizz and Ahri got released (they're both very difficult to keep out of your face before 6 and a pain if someone isn't stopping them from being one), and sitting around with infinite mana from leaving E on creeps is a slower pushing method than most of the competition has. Tormented Soil and Resolute Smite work much quicker than Space AIDS.
He's still a sneaky-good pick if the enemy team has a lot of skillshots, but he's just not as impressive as he used to be.
And oh dear lord are they tense.
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#1 Recap.
You say you can't provide bush control when standing next to tower and that wards are not enough.
I say you can just ward the bush, but if you're at the tower than it doesn't matter who has control of the bush as long as you ward it (I meant to imply this part).
You say wards are not enough for bush control.
As for #2, you stand around the same range from the opponents as your AD does then if he is outside harass range, so are you. If he is in harass range, so are you. Neither of you should be within harass range of a losing lane except to last hit and letting your AD go in by himself means he eats all of the harass and you're not supporting at all.
As an AD player if a ranged support is going to just stand behind me the entire time and we're stuck at tower anyways, I'd rather they leave the lane so I can get more exp. Every ranged support should auto attack whenever the AD is trading (given similar AA ranges) and you can't do that from behind the AD. Again, this is as ranged support; a melee support in a losing lane is better off hugging the AD and peeling any committed attacks.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Malz is also suffering from the game's mobility creep; his cast times are surprisingly slow, which makes it very hard for him to get his full combo off on an enemy that can move quickly.
I'm enjoying other supports right now though so I may not get back to her for a while
He pretty much just exists for winning lane and then being more or less useless now.
I hope they do something with him as well, his kit is neat, although he kinda needs an escape better than a delayed hard to land skill shot silence. pushing with space aids is fun, you can get heimer levels of farm with little effort, and keep your mana up. You can even build him AD and let your voidlings do the heavy work (its not noted, but your voidlings do their base damage + 1.0x of your bonus AD. Get your CDR down, and you can multiple out at a time)
he does have a problem that he can really only nuke one person, and then he's not that useful team fighting, as everything else is a DOT or a delayed hard to land skill shot.
He's not that far off from being top tier, addition of a slow to his Q on top of the silence could do it, or even a slow on his W.
Joe's Stream.
So the issue largely comes up by way of smart play around the bottom part of the lane. When creeps are at/near the tower the AD is going to want to be on the top side of the lane so they can stay as far away from brush poke and support poke while still being near enough to the creeps.
Creeps tend to bunch up around the top side of the lane leaving an area close to the tower free where the enemy support can slide* around under the creeps and reduce your zone of control. If you're next to your AD then they can pinch from the bottom and force you behind your AD and if you don't do that then you're going to eat harass that your AD cannot easily retaliate to. If you don't back off you're setting them up for an easy kill/dive as soon as they realize they can start harassing you consistently. Its for that same reason you can't simply leave the lane, because they'll dive your AD at your tower. This leaves you a bit further from the enemy, but still close enough to prevent them from diving.
This of course depends on the support they and you have because it depends on how and who you want to trade with. Janna doesn't want to take damage herself unless she still has plenty of pots. She does not benefit as much from the AD on her shield nearly as much as Graves/Sivir/Ashe/whichever AD you're playing with will and so if the enemy is focusing her half the ability of her shield is going to waste. Ditto Soraka due to the armor bonus[which enables natural sustain to be even stronger and so magnifies pots/lifesteal on your carry] and Lulu because she wants to be able to shield her carry and so give them pix[but less so on lulu]
The only ranged supports you want to be focusing their AD over themselves are Nidalee, Lux, and maybe Sona. Nidalee because she can't do anything to you without running away and Lux because she can shield herself twice very easily but not so easily with her AD. Sona because everyone gets the same bonuses Sona does, so you might as well take out the thing that does the most damage[note that this might be Sona early due to a second proc of power chord and its accompanying debuff]
Edit: And if you're Sona you want to focus more on their AD since your powerchord is more valuable applied to them.
*I originally used hook, and that is probably not the best word due to hook abilities.
If you're pushed to your tower and sitting on the top side of the lane to avoid the bushes, you are prime to get ganked/dove by the jungler. There are times it makes sense to ward the bot bush when you are pushed to tower, and there are times it isn't necessary.
Sometimes I like to push all the way to tower, sometimes I like to push to the end of the bushes, sometimes I like to have the lane in the middle, sometimes I like to have it at my tower. There are more matchups and possible scenarios in bot lane than any other lane and it just doesn't work to talk about how to make this or that work.
You can definitely say 'Leona is an aggressive support', but again, she won't always play like that. Bot lane is more about feel and chemistry than about matchups or positioning. You can make almost anything work if you are both on the same page and understand the way the carry and support might synergize.
If smart players ignore the Support when you're both targets of equal opportunity, then you might as well be just as close as your AD since smart players will ignore you anyways. Even if they do attack the support, it's better that the Support goes back to heal than the AD.
In the first few levels, a Janna should be shielding herself to trade/poke so the AD can focus on farming unharassed. With proper execution, the Janna takes 0 damage because she'll disengage right before or as the shield breaks. At this point auto attacks do most of the damage anyways. Of course, I'll prioritize Shields on my AD if they position aggressively to zone out the opponents. Match up context is way too important to describe a single general play style for any champion.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979