[Bayonetta 1&2] bayo 1 out on steam in 4K! Buy it or else

The Zombie Penguin

Nearly at the end of Bayonetta 2 now. WHich of course means i'm just starting the game. chernabog/Salmandara or chernabog/Love is blue is a super fun combination. Alaruna seems really good, but i'm unsure on how to do do it's double grab - i can only ever manage to grab one oppenent. Is there something i'm missing?

Defintley getting the hang of things better thoguh - i can actually beat the comptuer relaibly in tagclimax now.

Morninglord

alrunas multi target grab happens on the latter parts of the combo
the first hit of the combo will always only grab one enemy
pK(hold) is a decent way to grab more than one enemy fairly quickly, but still grabs less enemies than longer combos
try holding just before a weave. example on legs ppkk(hold)
then do a weave on them all

BronzeKoopa

Been playing Bayo 2 again after playing Transformers Devastation and I just now noticed a weird thing with the Peach costume. When equipped with Love is Blue on hands the wicked bowser weave at the end of the PPPKP combo doesn't connect or do damage.

Morninglord

Yep, I noticed that too.

The Zombie Penguin

So, anyone feel like giving me a run down on the high points/tips for each weapon? I've beaten the game and am about half way through a second run on normal difficultly trying to dig into the weapons more and get a feel for them, as well as making sure I've got at least golds for each chapter.

So far i adore the chainsaws and the scythe - they both feel really good to use, and Scythe/Whip on feet is a very fun combo - Especially PPK(hold)P. The hammer feels like it's amazing at dealing with smaller enemies, or when I'm using umbran climax, but feels less useful against the big enemies due to how slow it is. I want to like the bow more, but i feel like i get trapped n just spamming arrows with it - it's also hard to find a leg weapon it synches well with (I'm yet to get the chain chomp).

Undine just doesn't feel very good to use no matter what i do with it so far - It feels too slow for the damage it does. I also feel like there's seriously stiff competition for the arm slots, but relatively little to do with the leg slots - maybe that's just me?

Morninglord

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

So, anyone feel like giving me a run down on the high points/tips for each weapon? I've beaten the game and am about half way through a second run on normal difficultly trying to dig into the weapons more and get a feel for them, as well as making sure I've got at least golds for each chapter.

So far i adore the chainsaws and the scythe - they both feel really good to use, and Scythe/Whip on feet is a very fun combo - Especially PPK(hold)P. The hammer feels like it's amazing at dealing with smaller enemies, or when I'm using umbran climax, but feels less useful against the big enemies due to how slow it is. I want to like the bow more, but i feel like i get trapped n just spamming arrows with it - it's also hard to find a leg weapon it synches well with (I'm yet to get the chain chomp).

Undine just doesn't feel very good to use no matter what i do with it so far - It feels too slow for the damage it does. I also feel like there's seriously stiff competition for the arm slots, but relatively little to do with the leg slots - maybe that's just me?

I can't spend the time on this now but



that's my playlist of tricks and general bayonetta stuff that I found.

For undine, flame after weaves does more damage/freezes faster, and umbran climax seriously buffs these flames/frosts, to the point that you can freeze enemies in a couple of seconds/burn them to ashes just as quick. Don't worry, it gives you plenty of points.

The hammer is the most powerful weapon in the game in general and especially against large enemies. Watch that playlist and you will understand why.

I recommend watching it on youtube because the descriptions have lots of information on them. Don't just watch it embedded or you'll miss the explanations for each video. Sorry I'm not too good at commentary.

The Zombie Penguin

So far, so good - I've got Platniums on the prologue through to chapter 4 on 3rd Climax now. Thoroughly thoroughly in love with Salamandra - they just feel so damn natural to use. Getitng the hang of the hammer slowly - that with love is blue on the feet is a fun combo - althoguh i still get my self punched in the face trying to get the charges off.

Still just cannot make undine work for me, no matter what i try i always end up feeling "I could be using any other weapon and doing vastly better"

Morninglord

At the very least, use it for bosses, and I'll tell you why. When they get caught in the flame during witch time, when witch time runs out they stay stunlocked until the flame ends.
Use it on hands and stinger them soon as you dodge and hold the button down. You will tear chunks off them. Once you have that down, start pressing umbran climax as soon as the stinger connects. Then turn it off after the flame ends.

Also, if you want a really good example, go fight the spider boss in demon ville with frost undine on hands. Do ppppp and turn on umbran climax after the weave comes out. Watch the damage this does. Marvel.

They are not, by any means, spam weapons for general play. You need to be good at dodging, dodge offset and magic meter management to use them well. You also need to understand enemy elemental weaknesses. If you are still stuck at the "turn on umbran climax and then let it drain naturally" stage, forget about it. Come back to them later.
They're not even close to being newbie friendly weapons.

For hammer, when you are charging, forget about the charge. Get it out of your head that you have to unleash the charge before they hit you. You don't. Just hold the button down and wait until they attack, dodge offset, then hit them. Every time you charge it your attention should be outwards, watching the enemies. It's easy to dodge offset this way because your default attack is holding the button down.

That is how I did this to lumen 3 in infinite climax. Watch what I'm doing. Most of the time I'm just sitting there, sometimes with full charge, waiting. I'm not even thinking about hitting him outside of witch time. I'm watching him the entire time. Dodge is my overriding concern, sometimes I break off charges as soon as they start, because getting the charge is not the priority, dodging is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf-pAVkV90g

You don't have to worry about time, because once you have full charge and hit something with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi4vqPmaUlo

1). You've got an unblockable hammer.
2). That does way more damage.
3). And stunlocks anything it hits.
4). So just keep hitting them until they die.

p.s. They will die quickly.
p.p.s. If you dodge while far away this is a good time to use umbran spear.

Oh I should probably mention that weapons with only 4 hits in their standard punch string, you can dodge offset the recovery of the last punch and then hit kick to do a hidden fifth hit kick ender. Make sure to use this with hammer.

Mblackwell

I should really pick this game up again, and try for better medals. Watching those videos made me remember how damned fun Bayo 2 is. Bayo 1 was fun, don't get me wrong, but Bayo 2 for me had all of the mechanics perfected into something sublime.

I marathoned both games.

Morninglord

Bayonetta 2 has less freedom at the really highest of high end. A lot of the really tippy top players were disappointed with it, and even I was a bit disappointed after I got to grips with everything.
It's sound design is also unfortunately not up to snuff.
I don't want to go into details right now, I don't have time, but I can later this afternoon.
Please don't take offense anyone, I assure you I am not disrespecting the game. It's very, very, very good, and for 99% of people it's just straight up a better experience.
But for those crazy guys on youtube who do those crazy crazy things...there's just not as much there. There's a cap on the crazy. The reasons why are complicated and, unfortunately, inconsistent.
It's probably enough to say that you aren't finding a whole bunch of crazy bayonetta 2 videos floating around anymore. There's no hidden secrets or techniques that people can learn after mastering the game for hours and hours....most of the insane japanese players dropped it early, and the western players soon after. It's just, unfortunately, not a game designed for them.
I still really like it, and I still have stuff I want to play around with in it, but before I screwed up my hand I was already butting up against limitations on what you can do. Limitations that felt arbitrary and unsatisfying. I never found anything that was a huge epiphany in this game.
It's a really good game. But it doesn't surpass the first in terms of freedom.

Mblackwell

Freedom, maybe, but in terms of pressing a button and feeling the response, and the enemy tells and such, it was much more fun to get to grips with. Bayonetta did have more "AH WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST DO HOLY SHIT AWESOME!!?!?" moments though, but I felt like it was in spite of the mechanics rather than because of them. What I mean is that it was more about knowing what to do than simply feeling it. I guess there's joy in both though for different reasons.

Morninglord

In terms of visual feedback Bayonetta 2 is miles ahead of Bayonetta 1. I remember talking with a youtuber who was disappointed with Bayo 2, and she mentioned that it's difficult to go back and play Bayonetta 1 because of all the improvements in general play in Bayonetta 2.
But mechanics wise, Bayonetta 1 is extremely consistent with what you can and cannot do, and you can extrapolate from simple rules all the way up to amazing things. When you say you did amazing things "in spite of" the mechanics, I think we must be using different definitions of what you mean by mechanics, because in the sense of sitting down and knowing exactly what you can and cannot do by pressing buttons etc Bayonetta 1's holy shit awesome moments are a direct extrapolation of the existing mechanics. It just didn't give as clear a feedback initially.

What I mean is if you recorded a holy shit moment in Bayonetta 1 and then showed someone who knew the mechanics intimately, they would recognize what you did, understand how it happened, and would be able to explain it to you precisely in terms of mechanics, even if they hadn't seen it before personally.
Bayonetta 2 is more of a grab bag of exceptions and special rules. Different weapons, different enemies, they all have a lot of individual variations, so it isn't possible to do this. You do something amazing, and its amazing, but you also kind of go "Huh, but that doesn't work for x,y,z, this boss, that event, this creature, that weapon" and so on.
It's not as coherently put together behind the scenes.
Once you understood the rules of Bayo 1 the game exploded.
In bayo 2 you have to learn the idiosyncratic rules of individual enemies.
For example, the large centaurs. They all parry right? Some parry more often than others. They only parry from the front, so you can launch and combo them mid air from behind. You can only launch them in witch time. Once you launch them in witch time you can keep some of them in the air outside of witch time indefinitely as long as you combo from behind...but not all of them can be juggled in the air after launching them outside of witch time. Hammer centaurs are too heavy and fall through your blows....except for the hammer weapon itself, which can keep them in the air. On top of this, if you do a weave, many of them will react by trying to counter or turn around mid air, but if you jump cancel or tetsu cancel with rakshasha with the right timing, you can prevent them from doing this, allowing you to use weaves in your long combo.

That started off as a general statement that turned into a long listing of exceptions, idiosyncratic enemy knowledge, and idiosyncratic weapon knowledge. Long and convoluted.

In Bayonetta 1 every large applaud angel could be juggled indefinitely in the air by any weapon once launched with a wicked weave. That was a general rule. It was the only rule you needed to know.
Simple, elegant, and knowing only that rule you can work out how the first 50 seconds of this video is possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch1U73QXTsY

1). He launched the angel with a wicked weave.
2). He kept hitting it in the air.

The moves are all varied and shit, but you can kill that angel after launching it with the same combo over and over: pppkp. He's adding the variety in there for scoring purposes and to make it look snazzy: it is not at all necessary.

Mblackwell

What I mean is that the mechanics are loose/flexible enough that until you have some inherent knowledge sitting in the back of your mind it's a big list of actions with little feedback. In Bayonetta 1 when I had a poor encounter I didn't always know why or what could be done differently without a lot of experimentation. Some fights, particularly bosses, were just a complete mystery until after a few deaths. Failure felt random/like the game cheating. It took hours of trial and error to get any real idea of technique (and in some cases it was still just me counting in the back of my mind after certain enemy actions). In Bayonetta 2 it felt more like I just knew when and how to react, and simple observations could get me through the few times I was unsure. The mechanics may be less flexible but they feel more fair.

Morninglord

Yes, that's what I mean by feedback.
Mechanics are the underlying rules of the game. They are the rules that govern what you, the player, can do to the enemies, using your controller as input. As well as what they can do to you.
Communicating the mechanics to the player so that they can pick them up intuitively is feedback.
Bayonetta 2 has better feedback, but the underlying rules of the game, the mechanics, are not put together as well.
It's just better at telling you what those mechanics are as you play it.
Once you learn all the rules of Bayonetta 1, the whole game changes, and you marvel at its simplicity and the ease with which you can extrapolate those same rules to different situations.
As you learn all the rules of Bayonetta 2, you end up with, basically, a mess, that can barely be extrapolated to anything beyond the particular enemy you are fighting. You try to use what you think is an underlying rule against a different enemy and it doesn't work, as per the juggling example I gave. You know very clearly that it doesn't work, because the feedback is excellent so you can work it out really fast. If you aren't trying to sit down and work out the underlying rules, this all happens intuitively so you never really notice or care that it isn't consistent. But if you are trying to consciously work out consistent rules, trying to organise it into a coherent pattern like Bayonetta 1...that fantastic feedback tells you very quickly that the underlying structure is a mess, with few patterns that are consistent across the entire game.

Mblackwell

Yes, and I tend to enjoy games for... kinesthetic feel rather than for my own ability to dissect their systems. But both are good reasons to play. I'm not making a judgment.

Morninglord

I totally get you man.
I do, and enjoy, both styles.
Initially its all feel and intuition, and then afterwards I like to work out the rules behind the intuitions.

That's why I can flip flop between super excited completely brainless happy man when I first start playing a game and Morning Bot's Game Mechanics Lectures. I'm in a completely different state of mind when I start analysing a game as opposed to simply experiencing it.

Enlong

So, what and when is Bayo 2's pre-prologue sequence supposed to be?

Reynolds

If I remember right, just like in the first game, you'll get to that eventually.

The Zombie Penguin

Wheeee. Just got my first ever Pure Platinum ranking on a chapter -and on hard to boot, which feels nice.

Admittedly it was a boss chapter, but hey. (Chapter 6). Even better, it came after i kept getting gold rankings on the chapter - so having everything click and go perfectly was lovely.

Thanks for hte advice @Morninglord - I'm defintely getting the hang of using the hammer more and more. Although the chainsaws are still my favourite weapons by far. They're just so gratifying to use.

Morninglord

It's not really about which weapons is your favourite as it is which one does the job best. There's usually two or three out of your total pick that are better at killing a given enemy. Salamandra isn't always in that 3, especially in Infinite Climax against bosses, since it ends up being too slow to get great damage.

Enlong

Reynolds wrote: »

If I remember right, just like in the first game, you'll get to that eventually.

I'm asking from the perspective of someone who's beat the game.

It should be from the time travel bit, but Bayo doesn't recognize the Masked Lumen, who she doesn't fight during the time travel anyway.

Morninglord

That bit is basically a "teaser" that shows a mishmash of various enemies and Bayonetta fighting them. It isn't, as far as I can tell, connected to the actual story.

Enlong

Been trying Takemizukach and Undine (separately, of course) recently due to the breakdowns you gave.

What's a god leg companion for Undine? I was using Alraune, because it's always a nice option to have for the things it works on, but I was thinking about maybe using Chain Chomp, since its slow-but-strong style works nicely on frozen enemies, and it is another weapon that benefits from brief uses of Umbran Climax.

Morninglord

When I use undine I set it up with undine hands/love is blue feet, then I swap to a more powerful setup (for example, chainsaw on hands on the other set) and tear them to pieces when they are frozen.

I use love is blue to keep my combo going if I have to dodge a lot in between doing undine flame/frost.

Sometimes I use undine whip, but undine love is blue is my default, cos I'm using undine for a specific purpose when I use it, rather than as a general weapon.

Wyborn

Once I learned how to just frame the chainsaws over 50% of the time I don't think I ever took them off, ever, for anything

Enlong

Wyborn wrote: »

Once I learned how to just frame the chainsaws over 50% of the time I don't think I ever took them off, ever, for anything

I'm curious as to what this entails. Because i want to get the most out of the chansaws, and I don't thiink I am.

The Zombie Penguin

Enlong wrote: »

Wyborn wrote: »

Once I learned how to just frame the chainsaws over 50% of the time I don't think I ever took them off, ever, for anything

I'm curious as to what this entails. Because i want to get the most out of the chansaws, and I don't thiink I am.

When attacking with the chainsaws, hold the attack button down until you see the blades glow red, then release it. If you do it right, bayo does another quick attack that hits things hard, and increases your combo multiplier like you'd smacked something with a wicked weave. Every single one of the chainsaw attacks, no matter what it is, has one of these.

On that note, i thiiiiink Salmandra's heel-stomp has dodge frames on it. I'd swear i did it vs Masked Lumen last night, and it triggered Witch Time and everything, but i haven't been able to repeat the stunt no mater how much i try.

l_g

I'm not sure if chainsaw's powerup is strictly speaking a just frame, since the timing on it doesn't seem that hard.

Is there ever a time when Kafka is the weapon of choice? Even in fights which have obligatory long-ranged moments, I think I do better just by charging the pistols.

Enlong

The Zombie Penguin wrote: »

Enlong wrote: »

Wyborn wrote: »

Once I learned how to just frame the chainsaws over 50% of the time I don't think I ever took them off, ever, for anything

I'm curious as to what this entails. Because i want to get the most out of the chansaws, and I don't thiink I am.

When attacking with the chainsaws, hold the attack button down until you see the blades glow red, then release it. If you do it right, bayo does another quick attack that hits things hard, and increases your combo multiplier like you'd smacked something with a wicked weave. Every single one of the chainsaw attacks, no matter what it is, has one of these.

On that note, i thiiiiink Salmandra's heel-stomp has dodge frames on it. I'd swear i did it vs Masked Lumen last night, and it triggered Witch Time and everything, but i haven't been able to repeat the stunt no mater how much i try.

Yeah, I found out after I asked, tried it out during a chapter. so awesome. I think I have a new favorite weapon.

And yes, Salamanda's Heel Stomp seems to trigger Witch Time with the dodge. You can do the same thing with Salamandra's Tetsuzankou.

And the same with Rakshasa's Tetsuzankou. Not its Heel Stomp, though.

Are there any enemies that can't be frozen by Undine? I tried fighting a Gravitas with it and it never froze. Whch is understandble, since it's an ice enemy. but are any bosses immune?

Morninglord

Wyborn wrote: »

Once I learned how to just frame the chainsaws over 50% of the time I don't think I ever took them off, ever, for anything

Unfortunately against a boss and enemies that can parry all you can get is one charge and then a normal strike before they drop out of witch time and can parry you.
It's also not really all that good at building witch time, which is critical in this game with the lower times.
Sadly the charged attack doesn't count as a weave.
I use em, but not against enemies they're not very good against. There's better options.

And yes, Salamandra on legs can get witch time with heel stomp. No seems about it. One million percent confirmed.
Except with Jeanne, which is confusing because that would make them really useful for her.

Enlong

I guess the evade is counted as a dodge. So for Bayonetta, that gets you Witch Time, but Jeanne doesn't get any on normal dodges; just Moth Within.

Ah, and that's why you said you use them when you're using Undine; to get the most out of the freeze by using a weapon that needs that extra time.

l_g wrote: »

I'm not sure if chainsaw's powerup is strictly speaking a just frame, since the timing on it doesn't seem that hard.

Is there ever a time when Kafka is the weapon of choice? Even in fights which have obligatory long-ranged moments, I think I do better just by charging the pistols.

The big trick with Kafka is to always charge it. Even if you just charge for a split second. That makes it fire 3 arrows instead of 1. Tripling the weapon's damage output for very little time investment is quite good. Plus, charged shots push you backwards.

I like pairing Kafka with Chain Chomp. Four volleys from Kafka, then finish the combo with the triple Chomp launch.

Morninglord

While you are using Undine I might as well mention this trick again. Works best with both undine on hands and feet.

So undines P weave starts from well behind bayonetta.

Use panther to offset this into the middle of a swarm and start it. It'll collect everything from one side of an arena and deposit them in a big pile on the other side.

Then you do heel stomp on them all with undine on feet.

Magic gain in this game is damage done per monster.

Overkilling them counts (doing almost all their life then hitting them with something hard)

The p weave wont kill most of them.

The heel stomp will overkill them.

If you have enough of them.

The heel stomp will be free.

If you have a huge pack, you'll get more magic than you spent.

Enlong

I never did buy the production model of Undine. Now's as good a time as any.

The Zombie Penguin

So. Rosa unlocked. Chain Chomp unlocked. Infinite Climax unlocked. Climax Brace 2 unlocked. Hard difficulty done with all platinums. Feeling pretty damn proud of my self.

Infinite Climax mode is now thoroughly kicking my ass, but i'm loving it. Chain Chomp just feels amazing to use, and has finally made Kafka click for me - Having a heavy weapon to finish off a kafka spam with feels really good.

Rosa also feels really damn fun to use.

Right now i'm trying to get more of a hang of how to take advantage of the various accesories - I've mostly been using Moon of Mon Khala and Eternal Testimony togther throughout hard mode, and i'm trying to shake that up some. ...albiet, by using the hero of hyrule costume with eternal testimony right now (Since always, always having a couple of magic to fall back on feels really really good, and comming from MGR, parries are super fun to have acess to, even if i'm not much good at them yet)

Morninglord

With the way umbran spear functions as an animation cancel + offset + teleport + counts for increasing witch time, I never took eternal testimony off. All the times I didn't need it because I had more than 2 magic were completely paid back by all the times I did and could teleport over to an enemy in witch time to hit them with a charged nasty from my current weapon.

I didn't bother with the others much, they're sadly not really as good as they were before. The one that taunts enemies doesn't help you raise your magic much anymore, for example. Taunted enemies also give half witch time, but you don't get the magic orb benefit of taunting them manually...which adds up to a lot. You can get almost three bars from successfully setting up a long taunt on a room full of small enemies. With the accessory on you can't. It's basically just a challenge mode item.
Also the humanoid bosses become a nightmare with that accessory. Lumen gets super armor for example. You can't even stun him in witch time. It's crazy.
Butterfly is okay but magic is harder to gain so it can't be kept up as easily.
They took out the doppleganger one for some reason.
The rewards on torture attack one is useless.

Accessories are one of the low points of this game. There's nothing very exciting.

The Zombie Penguin

That's a bit of a shame, but still useful to know.

Also, oh bloody hell. Rodin is no joke at all. I can barely chip a tenth of his first health bar before i go down.

On the flipside, i'm finally starting to get the hang of various weapons - mostly grinding my face through the witch trials using only those weapons, or wailing on the Allegiance in the muslphiem at the start of chapter one. Undine makes a hell of a lot more sense to use now, which is awfully nice.

Morninglord

I hate Rodin.
He is a badly designed boss.
I have nothing good to say about this boss. Use Rosa and just spam pk(hold) after dodging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46YmZSyYkQY

In my opinion beating Rodin is partly luck because of the flaws which are rather well outlined in this video. I agree with her.

I did a podcast with this youtuber a while back which should go up sometime this week apparently. It's basically me just rambling about the things I do like, and random stuff I haven't released as videos yet. We did it because she is very critical about the game and wanted someone who wasn't quite so critical to give an alternate opinion. I was one of the only people she could find who was willing to do this who was able to talk about in depth mechanics. Nevertheless, despite my chipper attitude, at one point she brings up Rodin and then we both spent a few minutes bitching about the flaws with Rodin.
So please, don't take me as a hater just because I don't like Rodin. I have good solid reasons for disliking this fight.

You don't want to accept Rodin. You want platinum to make good things.

surrealitycheck

there is one very important thing about bayonetta 2 that is an improvement and that is her haircut

Morninglord

I like all her haircuts. Old, Bayo 1 and bayo 2.

I actually preferred her old witch costume in bayo 1 cos it looked awesome to be slaughtering bloody palace with her hair floating all over the place.

Polaritie

Yeah, but the hair was kind of odd when it wasn't active...

It's not a bad style, just... I do prefer 2's in the cutscenes.

I think it better matches her personality I guess than having it all done up like in the first? It's a shame that my favorite weapon of the games is Durga...