yeah honestly I could see that making money, you don't have to worry about too much overhead, besides having the wood available, maybe a storage locker eventually if you start stocking. I would honestly work through craigslist and etsy, throw that table up, price it for either pickup by a local customer or with shipping (although as mentioned that one doesn't look like it would come apart too easily).
Also definitely check with local stores that have gaming tables set up, although I wouldn't just go in to whore your product to the store, but see if they would be interested in something like that
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
A pallet's 4 x 4 feet, so he'll have to cut the top in half. Which will make it more difficult to make sure it will assemble dead flat when it gets to its destination, we don't want ridges and bumps getting in the way of our dice rolling now, do we?
If you can make it modular and break-down-able for storage that'll help your reach. I cannot commit ~100 cubic ft of space to such a piece of furniture (since the "legs" are sheets, your posted table looks very fixed), but I could use it as a play table with the kids and a poker table a few nights a month (I'm not much of an RPG'er or adult tabletop gamer anymore).
Having stain and veneer choices would be good, and a way to slide or remove the personal trays.
Good luck.
That's just design one. The table top comes off and the legs can be taken apart since, until they're secured, they simply slide into place. Taking apart isn't hard, neither is putting together really. The biggest hurdle is the 4x8 top piece. Shipping would have to be done with a national carrier that specializes in odd-shaped items. Not unheard of. It can be broken down into a 4'x8'x12' crate. I think I could do a decent local business and then grow the shipping part of it later.
Now I Just need some advice on website work. I have almost no experience building a modern website. My recent experience consists of finding a Wordpress template that I like and throwing up a few pages.
Really all I want are some pages with the products, a section to sell the plans (which might actually sell MORE and I wouldn't have to worry about shipping) and a "how it works" section on ordering, customizing, working with, etc.
I plan to offer several different models at a set price. If you want a customized table I will charge a little extra in terms of time because I will sit down and talk about what you want in a table. I will then turn that into a 3D model, some some adjustments if necessary, and take the deposit for the table itself.
There are a few people over in the Artist's Corner that will design you a website template that you can go from there. Probably looking anywhere from $500-2000 depending on who does it and what you need it to do.
Trust me when I say you don't want to try and tangle with a word press template or even just wordpress itself. God that's a fucking nightmare and a half. If you need more fancy stuff like shopping carts and all that, you're going to need much more than an artist to design a website template for you.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yeeeeahhh... I don't have $500 for a website right now, but I will keep it in mind. The Wordpress thing was for a few vanity sites I had a while back. I want to be able to add and edit content on my own so I can throw a new model up or change the front page a bit. :>
Sure that's fine, depends how professional you want to be. I know that wordpress based sites make me about-face before I purchase something unless I know the person.
Honestly if it's not professional I don't trust it or the person trying to get me to buy things. But that's my opinion and everyone else has different thresholds there.
In the future, budget about $1.5-2k for full on shebang website (that doesn't include hosting).
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Hehe, you were just talking a couple pages ago about saving for a little while and then dropping $4k on a startup that would require location and equipment rental. A website is pretty much your storefront; you want to make that look as professional as you can. If this is something you're serious about, it's worth saving for, and definitely worth dropping some money on.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Well yeah. I plan on *saving* for it but I don't have it yet. I mean, I still need time though. I have to buy the materials to build the other designs I have so I can have a physical picture to show instead of a bad 3D model. I will in time, but right now I'm just getting started in terms of the business side. I have the tools and equipment I need, for the most part.
Though I suppose I could put together what I want it to have and get some pricing going. :>
Spec it backwards. Determine how you are going to ship, how you are going to receive payment, what kind of options you'll have for the build, and all that stuff. Pics of the actual built tables can be updated last.
There's probably some risk involved in distributing specs over delivering product. If you're delivering specs I'd also include a build list (e.g. this many 4x8 1/2" plywood/OSB, this much 2x8 or 2x4, these kinds of fasteners, etc). And also recs on where to get stains and veneers and other finishing items. You're catering to 2 audiences then: DIY, and dudes who just want you to ship them a table.
Well, I could sell basic table blueprints with part lists (different than the ones I will be building) for $10 - $15. That is just a secondary source of income for the business. I can license them as "For personal use only" if I need to just to protect myself from the honest folks out there. I enjoy designing as much as I enjoy the building part of it.
Also: I wanted to stay away from selling the tables for over 1k. If I make some outrageous designs, sure. But I really want them to be affordable for your average gamer. I want someone like me to be able to save for a couple of months and then place an order. Honestly, and I say this in the most humble way possible; I just want people to be as happy as I would be with an awesome gaming table. Making money isn't that big of a deal. I like to see geeks enjoy being a geek.
Also I took some earlier advice and made an appointment with the local SBA office out of the local college. I plan on going in with some info and designs, what I want to do, etc. He sounds like an awesome guy.
As long as the goal isn't to support yourself, then no.
You may not think it costs you 1k, but, how much are you undervaluing your time there? Take what you make at your day job's hourly, and multiply that by how long it takes you to build one of these. 4 hours? 50 an hour? You just tacked on $200 to the cost of materials. So $400 + $200 = $600. Okay, well, you don't want just your raw man hours there. You want profit. You want to offset your costs. So, running your website costs money.
That's a $100 a year expense, plus the ~$20 a year to keep the domain. Let's hope you build 12 of these a year, so you can span that out as a $15 expense and bring the cost of manufacturing up $615. Oh you want to give a good support product too? You spend 2 hours a day answering emails. 2 * $50 = 100. You only answer them every 4 days, 91 days a year *100 = 9100 / 12 = $758 a month extra costs. Your $600 desks turned into $1400 desk. Factor in you really want to make profit, that puts your desk right near $1500-2000. This takes into account some major business expense a lot of people don't think about. You start building more of these? Okay you can ramp it down. Also you need to consider that if someone buys this, they're not going to buy one again, ever. Because it's quality son. Quality = high cost.
You may consider accessories too. Stuff that's easy to make. Dice cup, grids, map holders, felt for card games, etc.
Granted a lot of this stuff is gratis, you don't really charge your customers for it, but you gotta bake that shit into your business costs.
This is why a lot of businesses go flat. It's noble what you're doing, is it worth your effort though? That's up to you, I'm just breaking down some of the math.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Also I'm not trying to scare you away. The SBA guy will probably cover a lot of this and in way more depth and accuracy I could.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Another aspect of this are permits, fire inspections, and other municipal requirements placed at the burden of the business owner to operate with the space you are renting depending upon the use. You may be required to make specific renovations to the unit you are renting depending upon the specific type of business an your local, state, and county codes.
These can be anything from water fountains to utility ramps, fire extinguishers to bathroom additions. Talk with a lawyer before you start.
From a sustainable business perspective you want a vision that is not about making money (e.g. fulfilling unmet needs of gamers or somesuch). You make money by delivering on the vision. In this situation it is unmet need for gaming tables, or the existing marketplace for such is crowding out the less affluent customer.
As for making money, when breaking down cost it cannot be all about the customer, unless this is a hobby and not a business (in that case you could take a loss on each unit if you felt like it). Basically, if you have a good idea no one else is delivering on why not make some bucks on it?
You have a reference design that has some approval. That (or something based on it, maybe make it easier to ship cause that's the big hurdle I see) is probably the best design to start with. You could then supplement your offering with upgrades (bling) or downgrades (no veneer, no finish, smaller, etc), and new designs. Don't get bogged down making 1.0 perfect for everyone; you've one that's maybe good enough, take some time to figure out the other details of delivering a product to a customer (backwards I highly recommend) and you can revisit new designs later (once you have net income).
I'm not a business incubator, just a pragmatist who likes seeing people self-start businesses.
You're not scaring me away. I realize that a lot of this will be hard work. I figure 20% building/designing the tables, 80% marketing/background stuff. I do want to stay to a small market at first. To start off I would likely sell to ya'all here, but I want to stay local for a little while until I can swim a little deeper into it. I don't plan on making this how I support myself. As I mentioned before my 'day' job is a Paramedic. I pulled in $76k last year with that alone, which combined with my partner's income is incredibly well off for my self-set standard of living. My schedule means I have days of free time between days on the truck.
Personally I think you should shoot for probably around $1200-1500 for your base table there. Gives you some cushion for slow periods and messups (there will be messups) and accounts for answering emails and taking phone calls here and there.
Plus you can deduct tons of stuff as business expenses on your income.
Like.. operating the website. Handling credit cards. Stuff like that. If it's "ordinary and necessary" you can deduct it.
At the advice of the SBA, you should consider protecting yourself from at least legal liability through a corporation of some flavor (LLC, S-Corp, etc), too.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Your table does look pretty nice and is a much better small business idea then your gaming room.
Seeing as you enjoy the engineering part of the building, you should see if you can get the table to be flat packed into a standard pallet size and user assembled, sort of like Ikea furniture is. Or even better if it was completely assembled and could fold up, I know a lot of people don't have the space for a large table to be out all the time. Shipping would still be expensive, but a couple hundred on a $1200 item isn't that bad, and much less overall then a lot of other custom gaming tables out there.
The most I would do to cover operating costs is to have enough to build another one of the same model. I want to make it extremely affordable while not sacrificing quality. Like I said.. I want someone to be able to save up for a couple of months and then order. I realize the extra business expenses in terms of time, but when the materials only cost $300 I don't think I could ethically charge $1200 - $2000 for it. Frankly now that I've built that one I can build another one in less than three hours. Of course it'll take more time to let the layers of varnish dry (That one has 10 coats).
And frankly, writing off my expenses for something I consider fun (not to mention good exercise) is a reward in itself.
Sure that's fine, depends how professional you want to be. I know that wordpress based sites make me about-face before I purchase something unless I know the person.
Honestly if it's not professional I don't trust it or the person trying to get me to buy things. But that's my opinion and everyone else has different thresholds there.
In the future, budget about $1.5-2k for full on shebang website (that doesn't include hosting).
What experience do you have with WordPress? There's nothing unprofessional about WP, are you talking about grabbing a free template or getting one of those free hosted wordpress installs? If you get a good web developer your visitors won't know you're running on WordPress... it's just a platform to manage your website.
Edit:
Though I agree with you on the 1500-2000 for a good site. Anything less and you'll look like an amateur.
Sebbie on
"It's funny that pirates were always going around searching for treasure, and they never realized that the real treasure was the fond memories they were creating."
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
The most I would do to cover operating costs is to have enough to build another one of the same model. I want to make it extremely affordable while not sacrificing quality. Like I said.. I want someone to be able to save up for a couple of months and then order. I realize the extra business expenses in terms of time, but when the materials only cost $300 I don't think I could ethically charge $1200 - $2000 for it. Frankly now that I've built that one I can build another one in less than three hours. Of course it'll take more time to let the layers of varnish dry (That one has 10 coats).
And frankly, writing off my expenses for something I consider fun (not to mention good exercise) is a reward in itself.
Don't sell yourself (and your time and efforts) short. You seem to worry too much about broke tabletop gamers being able to afford your tables, well, to be honest, if you're so broke all you can afford is the player manual, six dice and an HB pencil, then there's no way they're going to be able to save up for one of your tables at a $1000 price point anyway...
What you are proposing to do is create and sell luxury items. Generally, people who play tabletop games enough that they are willing to dedicate the space and money toward buying a table like yours have already spent significant amounts of money on books, miniatures, custom dice, dice rollers, playing surfaces, game accessories etc. etc. Possibly (probably) more than the cost of the table itself.
These people will have a certain expectation of quality and style, and are willing to pay for it.
Indulge them. Don't feel guilty about charging fairly for your efforts and workmanship. That's what small business is - doing things other people don't want to or have the time and skillset to do, and charging them for your services.
EDIT: I'd avoid selling the plans for your tables. People handy enough to build from the plans can probably draw their own up anyway.
Donovan Puppyfucker on
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
Cog, please listen to Chris. The customer you are trying to look out for does not actually exist. No scrappy dude living paycheck to paycheck is going to squirrel away enough buy niche utility luxury furniture absent a serious mental disorder.
Furthermore, there is nothing shameful or unethical in providing a product or service to customers willing to pay for it, but if it weighs that heavily on your conscience, donate a table to a Child's Play auction or cash money for every X unit sold.
Sure that's fine, depends how professional you want to be. I know that wordpress based sites make me about-face before I purchase something unless I know the person.
Honestly if it's not professional I don't trust it or the person trying to get me to buy things. But that's my opinion and everyone else has different thresholds there.
In the future, budget about $1.5-2k for full on shebang website (that doesn't include hosting).
What experience do you have with WordPress? There's nothing unprofessional about WP, are you talking about grabbing a free template or getting one of those free hosted wordpress installs? If you get a good web developer your visitors won't know you're running on WordPress... it's just a platform to manage your website.
Edit:
Though I agree with you on the 1500-2000 for a good site. Anything less and you'll look like an amateur.
I dealt with it on a number of sites a couple of years ago. It was always way more trouble than it is worth. Especially if you need to add functionality to it that isn't prebaked, some of those WP addons are absolute garbage. You're better off slapping down another grand to get someone to make you a custom CRM/site-management specific to your business needs.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You could consider using shopify (http://www.shopify.com/) for your website ... looks professional&pretty by default and advanced customization if you need it.
They charge a monthly fee, and 1-2% of each transaction, but would be a decent way to get something going quickly online without paying a chunk up front to a web developer.
honeslty he doesn't need to have that much of an inventory or supplies. just say that everything is custom made and set your price high enough to cover changes in material cost.
you might want a couple example pieces for quality showing but other than that you can build on demand
Oh, I already have plans to buy materials to construct three of the four plans I have available. I'm not doing anything until I have my business license and tax ID number and bank accounts open and in hand - which will be this Friday. My fiance said he will build my first site and he's pretty good. He's started preliminary layouts, I just have to get him the verbage. If I want to later on I can transition to a website that will add more functionality.
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Also definitely check with local stores that have gaming tables set up, although I wouldn't just go in to whore your product to the store, but see if they would be interested in something like that
That's just design one. The table top comes off and the legs can be taken apart since, until they're secured, they simply slide into place. Taking apart isn't hard, neither is putting together really. The biggest hurdle is the 4x8 top piece. Shipping would have to be done with a national carrier that specializes in odd-shaped items. Not unheard of. It can be broken down into a 4'x8'x12' crate. I think I could do a decent local business and then grow the shipping part of it later.
Now I Just need some advice on website work. I have almost no experience building a modern website. My recent experience consists of finding a Wordpress template that I like and throwing up a few pages.
Really all I want are some pages with the products, a section to sell the plans (which might actually sell MORE and I wouldn't have to worry about shipping) and a "how it works" section on ordering, customizing, working with, etc.
I plan to offer several different models at a set price. If you want a customized table I will charge a little extra in terms of time because I will sit down and talk about what you want in a table. I will then turn that into a 3D model, some some adjustments if necessary, and take the deposit for the table itself.
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
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Trust me when I say you don't want to try and tangle with a word press template or even just wordpress itself. God that's a fucking nightmare and a half. If you need more fancy stuff like shopping carts and all that, you're going to need much more than an artist to design a website template for you.
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
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Honestly if it's not professional I don't trust it or the person trying to get me to buy things. But that's my opinion and everyone else has different thresholds there.
In the future, budget about $1.5-2k for full on shebang website (that doesn't include hosting).
Though I suppose I could put together what I want it to have and get some pricing going. :>
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There's probably some risk involved in distributing specs over delivering product. If you're delivering specs I'd also include a build list (e.g. this many 4x8 1/2" plywood/OSB, this much 2x8 or 2x4, these kinds of fasteners, etc). And also recs on where to get stains and veneers and other finishing items. You're catering to 2 audiences then: DIY, and dudes who just want you to ship them a table.
Also: I wanted to stay away from selling the tables for over 1k. If I make some outrageous designs, sure. But I really want them to be affordable for your average gamer. I want someone like me to be able to save for a couple of months and then place an order. Honestly, and I say this in the most humble way possible; I just want people to be as happy as I would be with an awesome gaming table. Making money isn't that big of a deal. I like to see geeks enjoy being a geek.
Does that make me bad for business?
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As long as the goal isn't to support yourself, then no.
You may not think it costs you 1k, but, how much are you undervaluing your time there? Take what you make at your day job's hourly, and multiply that by how long it takes you to build one of these. 4 hours? 50 an hour? You just tacked on $200 to the cost of materials. So $400 + $200 = $600. Okay, well, you don't want just your raw man hours there. You want profit. You want to offset your costs. So, running your website costs money.
That's a $100 a year expense, plus the ~$20 a year to keep the domain. Let's hope you build 12 of these a year, so you can span that out as a $15 expense and bring the cost of manufacturing up $615. Oh you want to give a good support product too? You spend 2 hours a day answering emails. 2 * $50 = 100. You only answer them every 4 days, 91 days a year *100 = 9100 / 12 = $758 a month extra costs. Your $600 desks turned into $1400 desk. Factor in you really want to make profit, that puts your desk right near $1500-2000. This takes into account some major business expense a lot of people don't think about. You start building more of these? Okay you can ramp it down. Also you need to consider that if someone buys this, they're not going to buy one again, ever. Because it's quality son. Quality = high cost.
You may consider accessories too. Stuff that's easy to make. Dice cup, grids, map holders, felt for card games, etc.
Granted a lot of this stuff is gratis, you don't really charge your customers for it, but you gotta bake that shit into your business costs.
This is why a lot of businesses go flat. It's noble what you're doing, is it worth your effort though? That's up to you, I'm just breaking down some of the math.
These can be anything from water fountains to utility ramps, fire extinguishers to bathroom additions. Talk with a lawyer before you start.
As for making money, when breaking down cost it cannot be all about the customer, unless this is a hobby and not a business (in that case you could take a loss on each unit if you felt like it). Basically, if you have a good idea no one else is delivering on why not make some bucks on it?
You have a reference design that has some approval. That (or something based on it, maybe make it easier to ship cause that's the big hurdle I see) is probably the best design to start with. You could then supplement your offering with upgrades (bling) or downgrades (no veneer, no finish, smaller, etc), and new designs. Don't get bogged down making 1.0 perfect for everyone; you've one that's maybe good enough, take some time to figure out the other details of delivering a product to a customer (backwards I highly recommend) and you can revisit new designs later (once you have net income).
I'm not a business incubator, just a pragmatist who likes seeing people self-start businesses.
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
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Personally I think you should shoot for probably around $1200-1500 for your base table there. Gives you some cushion for slow periods and messups (there will be messups) and accounts for answering emails and taking phone calls here and there.
Plus you can deduct tons of stuff as business expenses on your income.
Like.. operating the website. Handling credit cards. Stuff like that. If it's "ordinary and necessary" you can deduct it.
At the advice of the SBA, you should consider protecting yourself from at least legal liability through a corporation of some flavor (LLC, S-Corp, etc), too.
Seeing as you enjoy the engineering part of the building, you should see if you can get the table to be flat packed into a standard pallet size and user assembled, sort of like Ikea furniture is. Or even better if it was completely assembled and could fold up, I know a lot of people don't have the space for a large table to be out all the time. Shipping would still be expensive, but a couple hundred on a $1200 item isn't that bad, and much less overall then a lot of other custom gaming tables out there.
And frankly, writing off my expenses for something I consider fun (not to mention good exercise) is a reward in itself.
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
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What experience do you have with WordPress? There's nothing unprofessional about WP, are you talking about grabbing a free template or getting one of those free hosted wordpress installs? If you get a good web developer your visitors won't know you're running on WordPress... it's just a platform to manage your website.
Edit:
Though I agree with you on the 1500-2000 for a good site. Anything less and you'll look like an amateur.
Don't sell yourself (and your time and efforts) short. You seem to worry too much about broke tabletop gamers being able to afford your tables, well, to be honest, if you're so broke all you can afford is the player manual, six dice and an HB pencil, then there's no way they're going to be able to save up for one of your tables at a $1000 price point anyway...
What you are proposing to do is create and sell luxury items. Generally, people who play tabletop games enough that they are willing to dedicate the space and money toward buying a table like yours have already spent significant amounts of money on books, miniatures, custom dice, dice rollers, playing surfaces, game accessories etc. etc. Possibly (probably) more than the cost of the table itself.
These people will have a certain expectation of quality and style, and are willing to pay for it.
Indulge them. Don't feel guilty about charging fairly for your efforts and workmanship. That's what small business is - doing things other people don't want to or have the time and skillset to do, and charging them for your services.
EDIT: I'd avoid selling the plans for your tables. People handy enough to build from the plans can probably draw their own up anyway.
Furthermore, there is nothing shameful or unethical in providing a product or service to customers willing to pay for it, but if it weighs that heavily on your conscience, donate a table to a Child's Play auction or cash money for every X unit sold.
I dealt with it on a number of sites a couple of years ago. It was always way more trouble than it is worth. Especially if you need to add functionality to it that isn't prebaked, some of those WP addons are absolute garbage. You're better off slapping down another grand to get someone to make you a custom CRM/site-management specific to your business needs.
They charge a monthly fee, and 1-2% of each transaction, but would be a decent way to get something going quickly online without paying a chunk up front to a web developer.
you might want a couple example pieces for quality showing but other than that you can build on demand
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
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