Possibly running the Cairn of the Winter King (the adventure included in the Monster Vault) this week as a bit of hopefully zero pre-prep effort DMing from the book. Given it a quick flick through and it seems straightforward enough.
Anyone run/played it and have any opinions to offer?
Okay, I could use some discussion. I am looking to make "The Fifth Guy." The party has a Bard, Thief, Mage and Fighter. I need the fifth. I liked the idea of a Cleric, as Str, Dex, Int and Cha are covered, leaving Wis. Cleric is also pretty standard for a class.
I am hoping to fill many roles, though. The Fighter is a solid frontliner, taking the feat that turns Cleave into a double tap, and the Bard has Misdirected Mark, meaning lots of Marks can be out. However, the Thief isn't built for a lot of hits, so having someone else on the front line who can be kind of an off-tank would be great. Cleric with Battle Cleric Lore does provide a pretty hefty AC and can keep up with the Fighter. And with a 13 Str/Cha they can MC Paladin to get a Defender Aura and once per encounter punish. The Bard does a great job mitigating damage, and healing what they can't mitigate, so having some healing capability would be awesome, but I don't necessarily need the full thing (so losing the extra heal at Level 16 from a pure is no biggie), and Cleric has some ways to hand out saves (which the Bard hasn't built for) and party buffs (which the Bard does some of, but more would never hurt). And it would be nice if they can dish out some good damage, as they are only serving as an off-tank and an off-healer, more or less. I think a Cleric can be built to do a bit of damage, but I think that's a Str Cleric, which then gives up some of the other stuff I was looking at.
I considered a Cleric/Warlord, focusing the Warlord side on the lazy so I didn't need a solid Str. It very much seems doable; Human so I can take Sonnilor's to have an MBA, the one that if I hit grants a save so I have a ranged attack (I always build characters with at least 1 range and 1 melee option) and the melee attack granter for Warlord. Then more attack granting encounters/dailies when present, otherwise encounters/dailies that buff, like the one that gives you an Aura 2 +2 Defenses until EoE.
However, I'm not entirely sold, yet. Is there something that might fit what I am trying to do better? Mind you, I'm not trying to do it all super great, but I am trying to round out the party (off-tank, off-healer, with damage/buffing potential). I'm not entirely stuck to Wis, but I liked it mainly to fill out the abilities and to have someone with a solid Heal (Why? No clue. To have it.). I've considered the Pure Cleric and even the Pure Warlord, but both feel like they give up part of what I am looking for. However, I may just not know them well enough to realize I can still get what I am looking for, just in a different way.
I've also considered other things, like Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Warlord, Paladin, etc., but nothing entirely in earnest, yet (mainly because the Fighter combos would be Str and I really don't need another Cha character; the Bard very much has that covered).
I'd seriously consider an Essentials War Cleric. It kind of does all the stuff you're talking about and lets you focus on Wisdom and still fight in melee. You don't get the Marking, but you do get decent AC and utility.
I genuinely enjoy 5th wheel types and particularly the warlord, paladin, fighter, and cleric.
Although as a cleric it's far more likely that you'll push the bard toward 5th wheel but they're a bard that's kind of their thing.
If you want something broken as fuck let me tell you about my hybrids...otherwise I'd say roll tanky warlord or strikey fighter.
e: point of order, while Misdirected Mark is nice for hanging out a mark, the PH1 Fighter and the Warden are the only ones that can take best advantage of these marks. Anyone else who is assigned as the "mark-er" will not be able to punish.
I don't need the Cleric to be able to mark, necessarily. A 13 Str/Cha is enough to get them MC Paladin for a Defender Aura. I also don't need them to punish; I'm not trying to turn them into a legit tank, just someone to draw ire away from the Thief/Bard/Mage and help spread the damage out a bit over just having the Fighter eat it all. I think what I don't like about the Essentials Cleric is it seems that you still have an AEDU like class, but you have little choice in your powers (you pick a "path" and then everything is assigned to you). Maybe I am reading that class, wrong, though.
Would a straight up Warlord offer the kind of buffing/save throw granting that a Cleric can? And what would you gain going straight Warlord over a Cleric/Warlord (or vice versa, what would you lose, that is really important, going Hybrid)?
Cleric Warlord as a hybrid is kinda bad because the best cleric powers are Wis so you'd need both.
And okay this hybrid is, again, broken as fuck, but you can play a hybrid Executioner Blackguard. Yeah it's the whole dark brooding thing, but you get a whole lot of extra damage. The downside is you're gonna wanna play a Cha race (Tieflings can even get a racial mark power).
There's also a really neat Halfelf Druid MC Shaman. Pretty much requires Paragon to be viable, but it's pretty fun.
As far as cleric goes I'd recommend playing a "classic" cleric and just taking the essentials powers. The e-cleric isn't quite as fun from everything I've seen and heard, and the wis-powers on the classic chassis is very good.
Straight-up wis cleric? You can now, but mostly through feat support and itemization. And the lazy powers for the warlord are okay, especially if you can go Insightful (keys off Wis and lots of interrupts).
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Have you considered a Sentinel Druid by any chance? It's possibly the most multiple hatted of any multi-hat class in 4E. They can stand at the front lines, especially with the bear, they can heal, they have some control options and they aren't bad at hitting people in the face either. They substantially boost the parties out of combat healing with herb lore or whatever the class feature is (It's been a while and I have no books :P). I personally think it's one of the best possible 5th wheel classes in the game because of how versatile it is.
Thanks for all the comments. Personally, I am not a fan of classes with pets (as a player or DM), so I tend to avoid the druid for this reason. I ultimately went with the Cleric/Warlord Hybrid. At first glance it has what I want of the character (Battle Cleric's Lore for a +2 AC and Scale, 13 Str/Cha to MC Paladin for Defender Aura, Cleric powers for Buffs/Saves and Warlord powers to wield the Thief like a surgical tool). If it ends up not being what I was looking for, I can always consider rolling up something new. It's definitely not the most powerful, as it's spread a bit thin, but that's kind of what I was going for; something to fill a lot of roles, even if not the best at any (although my Cleric heal gives a +2 Attack and with a feat I think my Warlord one can buff, too).
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Cleric/Warlord
Hybrid Cleric Option: Battle Cleric's Lore
Warlord Leadership Option: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord Option: Hybrid Warlord Fortitude
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Tymanther (Tymanther Benefit)
Theme: Stormraider
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 14, WIS 18, CHA 13
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 13
Note well that there is a paragon-tier feat that will give you an additional use of Inspiring Word.
e: Thoughts/questions:
Did you consider any other Wis-based Cleric at-wills before settling on Sonnlinor's Hammer? There's a lot of them, and I don't remember what, if anything, stands out about that one. Also look at Direct the Strike, it's like Commander's Strike but allows for ranged basic attacks to be used as well, and it's I think ranged 5.
If you're taking a third At-Will instead of grabbing the human's +4 to a d20 encounter power, look at Brand of the Sun. That basically solves any problems with saving throws, especially so if you concentrate some feats towards buffing them up (can get a +1 to all saving throws granted by a power as a human cleric with Shared Perseverance). It's not super important immediately, but having that option in your toolkit will save lives. Plus you can Multiclass into Paladin with Soldier of Virtue which gives a "no thanks" daily that lets you take off a 'major' status effect from an ally in melee touch range without needing to make a roll.
Granted, this doesn't solve the issue of being able to throw around other characters like a warlord can, but it doesn't lock you into playing a specific build of cleric, just "a cleric". And warpriests can have some pretty controllery or strikery styles, depending on what domain you choose. Here's a quick one I did using the Domination domain for more controller/taunty style attacks.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Amon Ra, level 1
Human, Cleric (Warpriest)
Domain: Domination Domain
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 10
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 10
@Tox Sonnilor's counts as a MBA, so it solves the fact that I am Wis and not Str based. Vengeance is Mine, for instance, requires I (and an ally) make an MBA (or maybe just a BA, I can't remember). Since this is a character I plan to have in the thick of it, I think having a reasonable MBA is a good idea. I went with Commander's Strike instead of Direct the Strike because since I'd plan to be in melee often, Direct the Strike would provoke attacks (it's a Ranged attack). There is a good chance that will be my bread and butter ability, too, so I want to make sure I can use it often while doing what I set out to do.
@Slayer of Dreams Sacred Flame isn't as nice as Brand of the Sun, since you have to hit, but if you do they both grant a save. I wanted some ranged option, so Sacred Flame fit that bill (i.e. an potentially easy way to grant a save while also having a ranged option). I prefer the Squire of Righteousness feat for MC Paladin for the Defender Aura, since it fits how I envision the character. If there was another way (early on) for me to be able to mark (occasionally, even if I didn't have a way to enforce the mark), I'd definitely consider a different feat. While the character isn't a pure tank (and I'm not trying to be), I wanted some way to penalize targets for not focusing me if I am on top of them.
They are all good options, and I wish I could take more at-wills.
Re: Direct the vs Commander's. You have a fighter in the party. Provoking OAs provides more opportunities to trigger the fighter's mark punishment. And since you're a second healer, you guys should be okay to take a hit or two without hurting the party's resources too much.
Juuust saying. Also I only did thst like twice before the DM basically stopped falling for it unless it was a very dumb monster.
Also just a point of order but if you're mc paladin you can take as many mc pally feats as you want, so even if this isn't the best option right now, you can always build on it later.
So, next week we take over with the Bard and Druid down a hole, with only a rope to get out, facing off against two Wraiths and the Paladin and Blackguard down another hole, with only a rope to get out, facing off against 4 other creatures. Meanwhile the Fighter is up top bored holding two ropes.
See, you of little faith?
I walked out of that room with a 2 whole hit points to spare!
Yeah, the group TBD (Tactically Bad Decisions), did indeed survive! The Bard managed to climb up a rope (without falling, even!) and the Druid wisely blinded the Wraiths so he could scamper up the rope without provoking.
They all then decided to go help out the Paladin and Blackguard, most of which ended up bleeding out at some point as the Specter had a great habit of going invisible and then shouting to hit them all. The Druid, though, opted to fall into the room instead of climbing down (well, he didn't decide that, his Athletics check did.).
After battling the first room they took a rest and faced the Wraiths, of which managed to bring the Bard from full to dying in a single blow. Those Wraiths were no joke!
Maybe I am missing something, so perhaps you guys can help me out.
Scale Armor progresses from +7 at Level 1 to +13 at Level 30 (base armor, not including enhancement). If you toss the Specialization Feat (which requires 15 Dex, so my Cleric/Warlord won't be able to get it) you can get that to +14. With enhancement, you have a +20.
Leather Armor on a Rogue starts at +7 (+2 from Leather, +5 from Dex) and scales to +17 at Level 30 (+4 Leather, +10 Dex, +3 Elven Chain). With Enhancement, that's +23.
Is that right? I mean, I guess it makes sense; the Rogue has less health/surges so he makes up for that by being hit a bit less often (think evasion). But maybe I am missing something that would get the Scale up to +23? Could spend 2 feats for Plate + Plate Specialization for a +21, but that's quite the expense to still be below the Rogue while suffering a -1 Speed, -2 Check. Am I missing something?
So the entire difference comes from the late edition addition of the slotless +3 AC boosting Elven Chain?
I think there is something you should be questioning and it isn't Scale Mail.
I'm thinking you are right. I mean, there are other item bonuses you could get on scale; boots of the fencing master when you shift, or a number of armors that give some kind of AC bonus when you aren't (or are) bloodied, etc. Just nothing that is a straight bonus. Perhaps if Elven Chain Shirt was just a +1, for instance, even if it was like a level 14 item. It would still be nice, given it would boost Leather + Rhythm Blade to Scale + Shield level of armor, but as-is you'd need to invest in Plate + Plate Specialization + Heavy Shield + Shield Specialization (so, 3 feats, even for a Fighter) just to equal the AC of a Rogue in Leather with a Rhythm Blade and Elven Chain Shirt. No feat cost. For two feats (and Con) you can get Hide + Hide Specialization which would be +2 AC more than a fully optimized tank in Plate Armor.
I mean, like I said, a Rogue (or anyone in Leather) is indeed a bit more squishy, so having higher defenses isn't necessarily bad, but that's where situation bonuses (i.e. boots of the fencing master) or marks/debuffs should be used instead.
I dunno if I would disallow the item, as I am a Rogue deep down and love having the extra AC, but it does seems excessive.
That chain shirt is insane. A scaling non-typed AC bonus that doesn't take a slot and only works with light armour? It's such a no-brainer for every single light character build it's untrue. Heavy armour out of the window.
So my group is about to hit level 20, so I'm starting to feel that whole "no epic monsters" thing, so I'm increasingly cobbling my own critters together.
Tonight's endeavor includes a controller minion that uses a range burst that slows and prevents shifting and slides one undead enemy in the burst 1 square. And if you kill the minion, it rises as an undead soldier minion that gets an OA if you attack one of its allies.
I also made a wraith that does the whole grab->Scary Damage thing.' Except that this wraith does its scary damage by partially phasing someone into an object, doing ongoing damage plus restrain. And it does the usual grab-and-drag, even while you're restrained, so it can grab you, restrain you by pulling you partially into the wall, and then drag you to the ceiling to hang by your ass until you break free and fall.
I just ran Gamma World where the PCs finally made it to the moon, where they met super moon werewolves. One of the PCs received two crits in the same round, which I ruled forced a save or suffer spacesuit puncture. That was pretty nasty, since she failed both saves. Still, she's a Regenerator, so she was able to go a few rounds before she patched her suit, which made her feel like a badass.
2/3 of the party is obsessed with alcohol, and they found an old still in a cabin in the woods awhile back. They had mounted the still in their Sherman tank, but that tank got caught in a nuclear explosion in a battle with a hovertank. They were sad about not having a mobile bar, at least until last session, when they found a self-constructing moon buggy on the remains of a disintegrating space station (random loot roll, I swear!).
They now have moved their still to their bus-sized moon buggy... they're looking to get off the moon, but not if they have to leave their moon buggy/still combo behind. I have to wonder why they can't make their own still with all their science and mechanical knowledge, but you know players and their loot.
So I put some more thought into Elven Chain Shirt. As with the math above, it's broken as a slot-less, passive, always on bonus. There are other items that award item bonuses to AC, but they tend to be situational; bloodied, not bloodied, after a shift, etc. I think the Elven Chain Shirt can serve a purpose, though, in helping classes that opt for Light Armor but don't have Dex or Int as a primary. As such, I think how I will house rule Elven Chain Shirt is at follows:
Elven Chain Shirt
Wondrous Item
Level 9/19/29
Effect: While wearing light armor or no armor, when determining AC you can replace your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier with +4.
Level 19: You can replace your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier with +6.
Level 29: You can replace your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier with +8.
Now, if you are an Int/Dex primary, you don't end up with a huge extra bonus, but it helps fix the math for characters that are using no or light armor without Dex or Int as a primary. I.e.:
At Level 30:
Leather: +19 to +20 AC (+4 from Armor, +9/10 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
Hide: +20 to +21 AC (+5 from Armor, +9/10 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
Chainmail: +18 AC (+12 from Armor, +6 from Enhancement)
Scale: +19 AC (+13 from Armor, +6 from Enhancement)
Plate: +20 AC (+14 from Armor, +6 from Enhancement)
Leather (Elven Chain Shirt): +18 AC (+4 from Armor, +8 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
Hide (Elven Chain Shirt): +19 AC (+5 from Armor, +8 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
It's not perfect, but this way it serves a purpose, isn't overpowered and doesn't necessarily make Light Armor much better than Heavy for a non Dex/Int primary.
Next thing I am wondering, is does a new feat that adds a +1 feat bonus to AC for Leather/No Armor make sense? One exists for every other type of armor (including Hide). Most of the others also reduce a penalty, except for Plate.
As for adding the shield, my issue with that is a Shield is a Shield bonus, whereas the Elven Chain is an Item bonus. Plus, the shield carries a penalty and eats up a slot, of which the Elven Chain Shirt does not. Seems a bit ridiculous (and again, I love the Rogue) for a Rogue to be rocking a +24 AC (+10 Dex, +4 Armor, +6 Enhancement, +1 Rhythm Blade, +3 Elven Chain Shirt) with zero penalties, no feats used and the off-hand weapon that can make a ranged attack versus a Fighter who gets Plate Armor, Plate Specialization and Shield Specialization (3 feats), has a -4 Armor Check penalty, -1 Movement speed and can't do anything with their shield hand to get to +24 AC.
Isn't there a +2 to AC with no armor feat? Could have sworn there was a feat that Avengers/Monks loved. I know it was possible for them to get Plate level AC's at low level.
I am left with the question....is there a light armor class that doesn't have Dex/Int?
Though I guess I'm more left with preferring to steal something like Legend's Primary Defense Stat and Primary Offense Stat concept.
Isn't there a +2 to AC with no armor feat? Could have sworn there was a feat that Avengers/Monks loved. I know it was possible for them to get Plate level AC's at low level.
I am left with the question....is there a light armor class that doesn't have Dex/Int?
Though I guess I'm more left with preferring to steal something like Legend's Primary Defense Stat and Primary Offense Stat concept.
Isn't there a +2 to AC with no armor feat? Could have sworn there was a feat that Avengers/Monks loved. I know it was possible for them to get Plate level AC's at low level.
I am left with the question....is there a light armor class that doesn't have Dex/Int?
Though I guess I'm more left with preferring to steal something like Legend's Primary Defense Stat and Primary Offense Stat concept.
There is a feat (Unarmored Agility) that gives you a bonus when not wearing any armor. This brings them in par with Leather armor, since "Magic" cloth also gains a +1/2 with increasing enhancement bonus.
Not sure where you are going with the second point.
Edit: Regarding the second point. I don't claim this to be complete and I may have missed something:
Avenger: Wis Primary. Dex or Int is a Secondary/Tertiary. They get a +3 bonus to AC as long as they are wearing no armor and no shield. Assuming they get Dex or Int to 20, take Unarmored Agility and don't use a shield (which means Rhythm blade, too, most likely) they are looking at a +18 AC including Enhancement. With the Elven Chain Shirt change I suggested, they'd have a +21 AC (and they can't use a shield, so this is as good as it gets).
Barbarian: Str Primary. Dex or Int are not listed, but let's assume they have one as a tertiary for Reflex. If they get it to 20, which isn't entirely likely if they are using it as a Tertiary, they'd end, using Hide, at +19 (+5 Armor, +6 Enh, +5 Ability, +3 Class). They could use a shield, or at least a rhythm blade. With Elven Chain Shirt change, they'd have a +22. Since they can use a shield, this may result in a value higher than intended, since a pure Dex/Int in Hide and a starting 20 only gets to +21. This is one area where it may prove too strong.
Druid: Can use Con in place of Dex or Int. But Con isn't a primary. So in Hide, +16 AC assuming a 20 Con (+5 Armor, +6 Enh, +5 Abil). Here the Elven Chain Shirt change would bring them up to +19. This is a perfect example of what I was looking to help out.
Probably more. And I may be missing something that lets these classes use their primary for AC.
I ran an encounter like that once. It was very good times with the lich mostly having spells that supported or made the dragon much more effective (or recharged all of his abilities).
I wrote a thing. If you've ever wanted to include chaotic evil painter-warlocks who steal beauty and use it as currency in the demesne of an archfey who rules over a realm of landscape paintings magically superimposed upon the actual landscape (and who hasn't?), check this out:
The Principality of Pigments
Introduction
The fey demesne known as the Principality of Pigments is a realm where the art of painting takes precedence above all other things. Painter-warlocks empowered by the arcane might of the enigmatic archfey known as the Painterly Potentate add to this realm with each brushstroke, supernaturally stripping mortal lands and peoples of their natural beauty so that it may be added to the archfey's evergrowing canvas.
Overview
- This fey demesne is ruled by the Painterly Potentate, a reclusive fey being that seems to alternate between a male Prince and female Princess persona. Most denizens of the realm refer to the archfey as the Painterly Potentate, though some alternate between the terms Prince and Princess, taking pains to ensure they don't overuse one at the expense of the other.
- Everything appears the way it does as defined by the works of painter-warlocks.
- The demography of this demesne is unusually diverse for a region of the Feywild. Figure models are typically very beautiful individuals from various humanoid races. Artists-in-residence are even more diverse in race and appearance, though they are required to supernaturally enhance their appearances through the application of flattering self-portraits.
- The society of this demesne is chaotic evil. Master painters rise to prominence and can fade away (figuratively and literally) as up-and-coming artists eclipse them in influence. Figure models are effectively slaves, property to be used-up and disposed of at worst and jealously possessed living canvases at best.
Important Facts
- From the perspective of outsiders in the natural world, the Principality of Pigments is composed of a modest number of scattered regions whose former beauty has been drained, replaced with blandness at best and hideousness at worst. Within the Feywild, however, these far-flung regions are organized into a contiguous whole. The grandeur stolen from their natural counterparts is heightened to a degree remarkable even for the Feywild. Most wondrous of all, the sky, sea, and everything between has a painterly appearance. In this realm the most accomplished painters are granted the godlike power of imposing their artworks upon the mystical reality of the Feywild itself, with each region a painting created by a powerful painter-warlock.
- The Painterly Potentate is said to be the magnum opus of the forgotten fey god of the arts, a painting that the unknown deity poured all its divine essence into creating (other archfey devoted to various forms of art make similar, usually mutually exclusive, claims). As a divine work of art come to life, the Painterly Potentate is the most sublime and ideal expression of beauty. Even light itself bends to the archfey noble, guaranteeing that any being who gains the privilege of personally witnessing the Painterly Potentate's loveliness will find an exquisite scene far superior to the even the greatest works of art. It takes incredible mental fortitude to not be blinded and driven to madness by the sight, but even those so afflicted only wish to regain their sight so that they can gaze upon the Painterly Potentate once more.
- The inhabitants of the Principality of Pigments are divided into several castes. The lowest caste is made-up of servants and soldiers who maintain and defend the demesne. Above them are models, men and women of various races who have been abducted to serve as inspiration for new paintings. Painters are the most powerful caste, as they are creators of beauty given arcane authority to add to and alter the Principality of Pigments as they see fit.
- The greatest painters inevitably draw the interest of aspiring artists eager to learn the techniques of the masters. Those painters who create applied studies of an old master's work learn and improve more quickly within the Principality of Pigments. The hidden truth is that these students are drawing directly upon the souls of their idols in much the same way that the divinely-invested draw upon the essence of their god. It takes little time at all for a newly risen master to have their essence nearly completely drained by the unknowing vampirism of his or her admirers, transforming them into a mere vestige. Those masters who catch the fancy of the Painterly Potentate are sustained for a time by undead fey known as vampiric muses, strange creatures that draw vitality from painters with little potential to siphon back to the masters. This service ends when the Painterly Potentate tires of the master's work and those paintings imitating it.
- The economy of the Principality of Pigments is based upon beauty, which in the skilled hands of the Painterly Potentate's painter-warlocks can be treated as finite resource for those who rely on possessing it rather than creating it. Most models quickly have all their natural beauty sapped from them and transferred into a painting, which the artist-warlocks may animate as magical servants. These spent individuals are then returned to the mortal world as hideous mockeries of their former selves. A lucky few models who gain the favor of a patron do not have their beauty tarnished by his or her work. Instead, they become living canvases whose appearance is augmented by their painter using the applied essence of beauty taken from others. These greater models can then transfer their excess loveliness however they see fit; a few altruistic individuals even restore lesser models. However, a greater model must take care that they do not sacrifice too much of their beauty, as this could compromise their value as a work of art.
- Surprisingly, ideals of beauty within the Principality are much more diverse than in mortal cultures. Though elven races are still held-up as being the most ideal, various visual aspects of other races are appreciated as well. As a general rule, if it is possible for a creature of the world to see beauty in something, no matter how atypical such a conception might be to those outside the Principality of Pigments, then it is beautiful. Only the most alien conceptions of beauty, such as those of aberrants, are rejected. However, there are those who still wonder: What is the nature of beauty in the eye of a Beholder?
- Some corrupted models hide in the remote reaches of the Principality of Pigments. Their presence can cause the beauty of the land around them to fade, increasing the risk that they will be found out. These enclaves of ugliness have in the past attracted eccentric painters that have become bored of depicting beauty and instead want to capture the essence of hideousness on canvas; unfortunately for the models, the painters cannot remove ugliness in the same way as beauty. A few renegade painters have formed a hidden blackmarket in the Principality of Pigments in which beauty is traded for ugliness. While they could use this excess beauty to restore their hideous models, it is rare for a painter to wish to ruin their model's worth.
- The Principality of Pigments and the Painterly Potentate are just one of the fey demesnes and archfey devoted to the arts, although it is likely one of the cruelest. Others specializing in disciplines such as music, storytelling, sculpture, and even arcane and martial arts exist. Immortals known as lillends are associated with these realms. As they are known for their goodness, their relationship to the evil society of the Principality of Pigments is no doubt complex.
I remember a few years ago someone here posted an idea for an alternate skill challenge system, but I've yet to find it. From what I recall, it seemed to mechanically treat skill challenges more like traps and hazards that could make attacks against PCs. Does this ring any bells?
EDIT: Never mind, found them. Here they are if anyone is interested:
I do, actually! Some of these are fairly old (my first tries at really going outside the normal Skill Challenge routine), so I bet I've learned a lot since then. Haven't looked at these rules in a bit. So, I'll provide what I have, then comment on what I'd change.
Vampire Hedge Maze:
Now begins a "combat skill challenge." Players must conquer the vampiric
hedge maze using a combination of skill rolls and combat prowess. Each
round, every player takes one action. The garden responds to potential
actions as described below. As players succeed, they either open up new
options, grant bonuses to existing options, apply penalties to the garden's
attacks, or deal damage directly to the garden. Once the players have
reduced the garden's HP to 0, they have overcome the hedge maze and
returned to the castle.
Skill rolls performed against the hedge maze must overcome a provided
DC to succeed. In case of success, the player deals damage to the maze
equivalent to the total skill result. In case of failure, the player
accomplishes nothing. In either case, the maze responds as described.
Critical skill rolls that are capable of success deal an extra 2d8 damage.
VAMPIRIC HEDGE MAZE
Level 9 Solo Hazard
Natural plant (undead)
HP: 400
AC 24; Fortitude 23; Reflex 23; Will 23
Immune: disease, poison, fear Resist: 10 necrotic Vulnerable: 5 radiant
Saving Throws +5
[A] Draining Aura (Necrotic) aura
At the start of their turns, each player must succeed a DC 20 Endurance
check or suffer 1d8 points of Necrotic damage
[M] Thorn Lash
+14 vs AC; 1d8+5 damage
[M] Flower Fangs
+12 vs Fortitude; 1d8+5 damage, and maze regains HP equivalent to damage
[M] Poison Prick (poison)
+12 vs Reflex; ongoing 10 poison damage (save ends)
[R] Vine Snare
+12 vs Reflex; target is grabbed. At the start of the player's turn, the
maze makes a free Thorn Lash attack against the player.
[R] Seductive Perfume (charm)
+12 vs Will; make a Thorn Lash attack against target as free action, and
target is stunned until end of maze's next turn
OPTIONS
(note: grabbed players cannot use options marked with an *)
MELEE ATTACK
Players may choose to use a melee attack power against the maze. As an
immediate reaction, the maze uses Thorn Lash on that player. Powers that
allow the player to shift as part of the attack ignore the Thorn Lash.
Bonuses against OAs apply. Powers that push, pull, or slide targets
impose a +2 penalty per square on the maze's attack.
RANGED ATTACK *
Players may choose to use a ranged attack power against the maze. As an
immediate reaction, the maze uses Vine Snare on that player.
ACROBATICS: Acrobatic Stunt (DC 19) *
Players may use Acrobatics to somersault over an impeding hedge wall,
flip through a dangerous area, etc. As an immediate reaction, the maze
responds with Vine Snare.
ARCANA: Detect Magic (DC 24, standard action)
The player identifies magical effects at work here. Players can now use the
Arcana: Identify Magic option to attack the challenge. As an immediate
reaction, the maze responds with Seductive Perfume.
ARCANA: Identify Magic (DC 24) *
The player identifies illusory effects that help the maze appear to change
and warp paths. Success on this check also imposes a -2 on the maze's
defense scores until the end of that player's next turn. As an immediate
reaction, the maze responds with Vine Snare. This can only be used after
a successful Arcana: Detect Magic check.
ATHLETICS: Climb (DC 20) *
The player attempts to climb over a high hedge wall. As an immediate
reaction, the maze responds with Flower Fangs. If the player can climb
at full move speed, the maze takes a -2 penalty to the attack roll.
ATHLETICS: Jump (DC 25) *
The player attempts to leap a low ledge wall. As an immediate reaction, the
maze responds with Vine Snare.
BLUFF: Gain Combat Advantage (DC 20) *
Once per combat, a player can gain combat advantage with a successful
feint. If the player fails, the maze responds with Poison Prick as an
immediate reaction.
BLUFF: Create Diversion (DC 20) *
The player attempts to trick the vampiric plants in order to bypass a
dangerous region. Each player may only attempt this once. If the player
fails, the maze responds with Flower Fangs as an immediate reaction.
DUNGEONEERING: Safe Passage (DC 24)
The player recognizes a pattern to the maze's attacks. For the remainder
of combat, the player receives a +2 bonus to all defenses. This can only
be attempted once.
HEAL: Grant a Saving Throw (DC 15) *
Use normal rules for this.
HISTORY: Old Tales (DC 22)
The player remembers obscure tales of such dangerous gardens. In one old
tale in particular, an explorer overcame such plants through extreme acts
of aggression. Players may now attempt to make use of Intimidate. This
may only be attempted once per player. As an immediate reaction, the maze
responds with Seductive Perfume.
INSIGHT: See the True Path (DC 22) *
The player sees through tricks to find the correct way out. In case of
failure, the maze responds with Thorn Lash. In case of success, the
maze responds with Vine Snare.
INTIMIDATE (DC 23, move action)
The player adds excessive savagery to their attacks. Deal an extra 1d6
damage. In case of failure, the player takes a -2 penalty to the attack.
This skill may only be used after a successful History: Old Tales check.
NATURE: Knowledge (DC 20)
The player's knowledge of plants reveals a specific weakness possessed by
this one. This unlocks the Thievery option. This may only be attempted
once per player. As an immediate reaction, the maze responds with Vine
Snare.
PERCEPTION: Spot the Path (DC 21) *
The player finds a safe way through the hedges. In case of failure, the
maze responds with Flower Fangs. In case of success, the maze responds
with Seductive Perfume.
RELIGION: Perform Rite (DC 22) *
The player performs a religious rite that attempts to burn the vampiric
plants. In case of failure, the maze responds with Seductive Perfume.
In case of success, the maze responds with Vine Snare.
STEALTH: Sneak (DC 24, move action)
The player attempts to creep by the plants unnoticed. If success, the
player gains concealment until the start of the next round.
STREETWISE: Navigate the Maze (DC 23) *
The player feels right at home here, the maze similar enough to dark,
dangerous alleyways. This use works like Spot the Path, only the DC
is slightly higher.
THIEVERY: Attack the Weak Point (DC 24)
The player makes a precision attack on the hedge's weak point. This
check deals Sneak Attack damage on success. As an immediate reaction,
the maze responds with Flower Fangs.
TURN UNDEAD
If the attack is successful, the maze loses its ability to perform
immediate actions for one full turn (i.e. against each player once).
In case of failure, the maze responds with Vine Snare as an immediate
reaction.
Comments:
The DCs can seem high to make, but each player probably has at least one trained skill with a +5 stat, giving a +14 at this level. So, it should work pretty okay; as usual, adjust based on your players' builds. Modify the maze's HP totals depending on the number of players you have. I think I had to knock off about 100 of those for a party of 5, but I can't remember. Be ready to wing it, this was only tested once!
Another thing -- I think I ended up giving players a full turn instead of just an action. You could probably go either way with it, but it has consequences for the support skills (and for escaping grab).
Haunted Tower ("Death Spiral"):
Players must climb the tower while being impeded by a variety
of obstacles (described below). Each round, each player must
choose to either climb the tower or remain stationary. Either
way, players are subject to some form of attack from the tower;
however, remaining still grants +4 to all defenses, and players
may choose to use a healing surge (no limit like with normal
Second Wind). Additionally, players may be immune to some
secondary effects from the various attacks. Some "attacks"
require players to make a skill check rather than being directly
assaulted; players who remain still enjoy a +4 on this check.
Before the round begins, read each attack's flavor text to
the PCs. They must each then make the decision to attempt
climbing or to move forward. Aid Another is not allowed;
no usage of powers or skills may benefit here, as it's assumed
the characters are doing everything they can to get up safely
(exception: movement-based utility powers may be used, following
normal rules for encounter and daily powers; at-will movement
utilities, however, are ineffective; also, healing and buff
powers are also available, minus at-wills). Players who
remain still may use Heal to grant saving throws to allies
on the same level.
If a player successfully moves forward, that player has
ascended 1 level. Players begin at level 1. Players must
reach level 10 to complete the tower. Any effects that have
range (such as Healing Word) can reach +/- 1 level. If players
wish to turn about, they must return to level 1.
If a player falls all the way to the bottom of the tower, the
player takes damage as if each level was 10ft; in other words,
1d10 per level. If an effect causes a player to fall, the
player may attempt an Athletics check each level (below the one
they fall from) to catch themselves, DC 15.
Roll on the following table each round to see which attack
is used against the players. If the same result appears two
rounds in a row, reroll until a new event is rolled.
DEATH SPIRAL ATTACKS
(1) WAILING GHOSTS
TEXT: A number of spirits gather high above you in the tower.
Suddenly, they fly down straight at you, unleashing a
horrific chorus of wails.
EFFECT: Attack +12 vs Will (Fear). On hit, target suffers
1d8+6 psychic damage and flees, going down 1 level.
(2) WALL SPEARS
TEXT: Small holes suddenly open in the walls alongside the
stairs.
EFFECT: Attack +15 vs AC. On hit, target suffers 2d8+8
damage.
(3) CHILL WINDS
TEXT: You feel a short gust of freezing wind. Suddenly, the
wind begins to pick up further.
EFFECT: Endurance check DC 18. On fail, no advance and
attack +11 vs Fortitude. On hit, target suffers 1d8+4
damage and falls.
(4) COLLAPSING STAIRS
TEXT: The staircase begins to rattle heavily.
EFFECT: Attack +10 vs Reflex. On hit, target falls.
(5) RAIN OF BONE
TEXT: Several small bones suddenly fall around you from the
darkness overhead.
EFFECT: Attack +15 vs Reflex. On hit, target suffers 1d10+7
damage and ongoing 5 necrotic damage (save ends).
(6) WARPED SPACE
TEXT: The staircase suddenly begins to shimmer and wind about
like some kind of strange worm.
EFFECT: Insight check DC 15. On fail, target falls if advancing;
if staying still, target descends 1 level.
(7) WHISPERS OF MADNESS
TEXT: You hear strange voices whispering in the back of your mind.
EFFECT: Attack +13 vs Will (Charm). On hit, target attacks a
random ally on the same level with a basic melee attack
and does not advance. If no allies are present, target
is oneself.
(8) ABYSSAL GUIDE
TEXT: Suddenly, an old creature of indeterminable race and sex
appears before you. In a grating whisper, it asks you to
explain why it should allow you to pass rather than be
escorted to the Abyss.
(on repeat rolls, the guide returns and asks for a second
reason)
EFFECT: Diplomacy check DC 15. On fail, target does not advance
and suffers 4d6+2 necrotic damage. Bluff and Intimidate
can also be rolled at DC 21.
(9) DECK OF FATE
TEXT: A skeletal figure blocks your progress up the staircase.
It stretches out a hand, offering you the chance to pick
from a deck of cards.
EFFECT: Players who choose to advance must draw a card. Drawing
any spade sends the character down 1 level. Drawing
the Ace of Spades sends the character to level 0. Drawing
any club forces the character to remain at this level and
suffer damage equal to the number on the card (12 for faces,
15 for the Ace of Clubs). Drawing the Ace of Diamonds
sends the character up two levels. Drawing the Ace of Hearts
grants the character an extra healing surge. Drawing any other
heart grants the character temporary HP equal to the number on
the card (12 for faces), but the character remains at the
same level. Drawing any other diamond sends the character up
one level. Drawing a Joker requires drawing two more cards,
summing their results (effect is cumulative; Ace of Spades
overrides all). Cards chosen are removed from the deck.
Attacking the skeleton automatically misses (accept damage
on a roll of 20, but inform that it's not a crit). The
attacker automatically suffers 1d12+10 Necrotic damage
as backlash and can't advance.
(10) BLACK SLIME
TEXT: Thick black slime spreads across the staircase, covering it
and much of the walls around you.
EFFECT: Acrobatics DC 24. Failure results in slipping prone,
unable to advance. Failing by more than 8 (DC 16)
results in falling (advancing only). Failing at all,
advancing or staying still, covers the player in slime
that begins to rot their flesh; attack +14 vs Fortitude.
On hit, target contracts a weaker version of Slimy Doom
(DMG p50). The Endurance DCs are 21/16/15. The ongoing
damage becomes 5 and 15. Disease level is 10. Each
subsequent hit by this effect in this encounter moves the
player down the disease track one level.
Comments:
I like pulling out decks of playing cards for scenes like this, so that entry makes me happy.
Nowadays when I build scenes like this, I typically go for opposed skill rolls instead of attacking defenses. It's more interactive for the players.
Also, reaching floor 10 turned out to be fairly frustrating for at least one player who had some bad luck combined with less than optimal applicable bonuses / defenses. Going for 5 is probably enough, but 7 should be okay. I had underestimated how many rounds would pass when a player has frequent need to choose to not advance. I think I did wind up lowering it when I ran this.
It's not in the text, but when I ran this I added an assist roll of some kind for players who had reached the top to give a bonus to a player still climbing (either to defenses or to a skill). I think I used Arcana and/or Religion for this one with a rather standard DC. Some of the comments I made earlier in the thread when referencing this as an example included additional improvements I've since learned to add to these kinds of scenes, such as assist rolls that can completely prevent attacks against allies.
Pit of Bones:
-- Descriptive Text --
The doors open to reveal a dark stone chamber of moderate size. The
walls bear faded tapestries that wither as fresh air enters the room
for the first time in what must have been ages. Across
the room, you see a stone door, but what appears from here to be a
deep pit blocks passage across the center of the room.
A vicious see-saw trap sits in the center of this chamber between the
entryway and the pit. Players who move forward to investigate the pit
trigger the trap, plunging themselves down onto spikes and sending their
allies flying through the air into the pit. The trap is 2 squares across
and 6 squares long; the spike pit is 20 feet deep.
The bone pit is 5 squares across and 20 feet deep. The base of it is covered
in bones, which deal additional damage to players who fall within (factored
into the trap's damage). Further, any character entering the pit
causes some of the bones to animate and attack any inhabitants of the pit.
Climbing the walls of either pit is DC 20 Athletics check for each attempt.
Invisible bridges actually span the pit on either side, adjacent to the
wall. Each bridge is 1 square across.
PIT OF BONES ROOM TRAP
Level 7 Solo Trap (1200 XP)
Perception
[DC 28] The character notices that the floor is different around the
12 squares of the see-saw.
[DC 31] The character notices dust resting on the invisible bridges.
Religion
[DC 26] The character recognizes the foul enchantments on the bones.
Trigger
- The see-saw triggers when a player steps on any of the far four
squares.
- The bone pit triggers when a player enters the bone pit.
Attacks
Spike Plunge (immediate reaction)
Trigger on PCs in any of the farthest 4 squares of the see-saw
+10 vs. Reflex; 2d10 damage
Spike Slide (immediate reaction)
Trigger on PCs in any of the middle 4 squares of the see-saw if Spike
Plunge fires
+8 vs. Reflex; 2d10 damage
Catapult (immediate reaction)
Trigger on PCs in any of the nearest 4 squares of the see-saw if Spike
Plunge fires
+10 vs. Reflex; 4d10 damage, character enters a random square in the pit
Dead Walk (immediate reaction)
Triggers if any PC enters the bone pit
Creates 1 skeleton and 2 decrepit skeletons in random locations within the pit
Rise of the Dead (standard action; recharge 4 5 6)
Can only be used after Dead Walk has triggered
Creates 1 creature (roll d4) in a random location within the pit
1-3: decrepit skeleton
4: skeleton
Countermeasures
[] Thievery DC 32 disables the see-saw
[] Athletics DC 50 (25 with running start) clears the bone pit
[] Invisible bridges circumvent the bone pit
[] Athletics DC 20 climbs at half speed from either pit
(NOTE: PCs take an extra 1d10 if they fall due to spikes and bones)
[] Turn Undead used within the pit disables Rise of the Dead for 1d4 rounds
(successful Religion check makes PCs aware of this)
Notes
[] Award no XP for slaying skeletons
[] Award 1/2 XP for avoiding the trap entirely due to perception wins
[] Award XP only once; PCs likely to have to cross this area again on
their way back
Comments:
This one barely counts because it's a very standard trap write-up (and even older than the other two), but it was so hilarious in play that I wanted to include it anyway. The players were laughing pretty much the whole time.
My trap bypass Perception DCs are always stupid high because I think bypassing traps like this with a single skill (ESPECIALLY one that you can win passively) is dumb. Players who really optimize Perception can still occasionally pull it off, but I tend to put uses for that skill within the challenge instead of as a way to circumvent it.
These were a different in a few ways than I remembered, but as it's been something like three years, I hope I can be forgiven for that I have some newer stuff on a flash drive somewhere; if there's anything useful on there maybe I'll toss it in.
The interaction system is actually for the card game, but I could probably develop a 4E equivalent. Maybe I'll do that and post it in case it's useful to somebody.
Sure, go for it Here's another I found on a flash drive. For this one I divided the skills across three "phases" instead of listing all of them up-front. This has the benefit of making each "phase" easier to learn and play, though it means characters won't contribute the same in each individual phase. To help with this, I made some skills "safe" to attempt but still able to deal direct damage to the challenge.
The concept behind this design ultimately fueled the exploration system for my card game.
The eighth floor is a large single combat / skill challenge. The theme is the players navigating a massive Xorian labyrinth, overcoming the final defenses of the pyramid to descend to the ninth floor. The event goes through three phases, each of which allows for a different set of skill checks used by the PCs. Skills inflict "damage" on the challenge, reducing its HP and moving the PCs closer to the next leg. Skills can also have additional, more tactical effects, but failure on skill checks can be dangerous. The Eighth Floor also receives an attack every round on its initiative count. Grant the PCs the benefit of a full rest before continuing.
PHASE ONE: THE SENTIENT LABYRINTH
"The powerful feeling you get immediately upon stepping foot on this floor is similar as when you entered the fourth, only this time, there is a sense of desperation and eccentricity mixed with the malevolence that hangs in the air. There is no question: the essence within this pyramid is no longer playing with you. It intends to destroy you. You will need to bring to bear all your wits and cunning to navigate the labyrinth now spread out before you."
HP: 200
Initiative: +10
- Available Attacks -
Slide and Spike Pit Trap: +14 vs Reflex. 3d8+10 damage. Target cannot attack until it succeeds on a DC 20 Athletics or Dungeoneering check to escape.
Illusory Floor: +12 vs Will against all PCs. 3d6+4 damage. Targets hit suffer -2 to skill checks until the end of their next turn.
Minion Swarm: +15 vs AC against all PCs. 10 damage and ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
- Available Skills -
Dungeoneering DC 15: Navigate the labyrinth. Deals 2d8+skill mod damage. On failure, -2 to all defenses until the start of your next turn.
Perception DC 20: Notice the labyrinth's dangers. Deals 1d6+skill mod damage and reduces the labyrinth's attack rolls by 2.
Thievery DC 20: Open a locked door or manipulate the entrance to a hidden passage. Deals 2d10+skill mod damage. On failure, suffer 1d6+8 damage from triggering a trap.
Religion DC 20: Make a blood offering to the gods of the Sunei for protection and guidance. Deals 3d8+skill mod damage. Suffer 2d4+2 damage.
PHASE TWO: XORIAN MADNESS
"The labyrinth undergoes a horrific change as you progress deeper. The influence of Xoriat is now complete, and the very corridors through which you walk have been twisted. The walls thump as to the beating of a heart. Fanged mouths manifest from the ceiling overhead, screeching terribly before vanishing. You catch glimpses of impossible creatures in the corner of your eye, but when you turn to look, there is nothing but shadow. Occasional pools of mucous complete the mood, and you find yourself seriously questioning the wisdom of having ever ventured into this foul place."
HP: 200
Initiative: +12
- Available Attacks -
Descent From Sanity: +14 vs Will. 3d6+3 psychic damage, and the target is dominated (save ends). Cannot be used while an enemy is dominated.
Barbed Tentacles: +15 vs AC against three PCs. 2d8+5 damage and 5 ongoing damage (save ends).
Fanged Mouth: +14 vs Reflex. 2d8+8 damage, and the PC is swallowed. While swallowed, the PC suffers 10 ongoing damage, and the Eighth Floor heals for 10.
- Available Skills -
Arcana DC 20: Ward off Xorian's foul influences. 2d8+skill mod damage, and +2 to defenses until the end of your next turn. On failure, suffer 1d6+3 damage from backlash.
Athletics DC 20: Rescue an ally from the Fanged Mouth.
Intimidate DC 18: Rally the party to discourage madness and press ever forward. 1d10+skill mod damage, and all allies gain a +2 to saving throws until the end of your next turn.
Stealth DC 18: Sneak through the madness unmolested. 3d10+skill mod damage. On failure, grant combat advantage until the start of your next turn.
PHASE THREE: THE LACRYMATORY CAVERNS
"Suddenly, the corridor before you opens into a large cavern littered with openings into inky darkness, stalagmites tipped with metallic razor tips, and the occasional eye set into the stone, its pupil darting about in paranoia. Passages from this cavern descend downward, some with narrow walkways that offer no walls, others with ground that shivers and rumbles. You are now beneath the structure of the pyramid itself, heading to the core of Xorian influence."
HP: 200
Initiative: +14
Regeneration 15 (see Available Skills below)
- Available Attacks -
Labor of Xoriat: +13 vs Fortitude against all PCs. 2d10+5 damage and weakened (save ends). Cannot use if any PC is weakened.
Gravity Shift: +13 vs Reflex against two PCs. 4d6+6 damage.
Lachrymal Dread: +13 vs Will against all PCs. 2d12 brutal 1 psychic damage and cannot spend healing surges (save ends).
- Available Skills -
Acrobatics DC 20: Navigate a treacherous shortcut. 3d10+skill mod damage. On failure, suffer 2d6+5 damage.
Nature DC 20: Knowledge of caverns gives you an edge here. 2d8+skill mod damage.
Endurance DC 20: Press on despite accumulated fatigue from the labyrinth. 2d6+skill mod damage and +2 to Fortitude until end of your next turn.
Insight DC 22: Recognize tricks causing you to circle about uselessly. 1d6+skill mod damage and the Eighth Floor cannot regenerate this turn.
Posts
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Anyone run/played it and have any opinions to offer?
I will say, you guys do keep things interesting!
"There's a door, what do you do?"
"I charge through the door into the room."
"Do you want to open it first?"
"No."
I am hoping to fill many roles, though. The Fighter is a solid frontliner, taking the feat that turns Cleave into a double tap, and the Bard has Misdirected Mark, meaning lots of Marks can be out. However, the Thief isn't built for a lot of hits, so having someone else on the front line who can be kind of an off-tank would be great. Cleric with Battle Cleric Lore does provide a pretty hefty AC and can keep up with the Fighter. And with a 13 Str/Cha they can MC Paladin to get a Defender Aura and once per encounter punish. The Bard does a great job mitigating damage, and healing what they can't mitigate, so having some healing capability would be awesome, but I don't necessarily need the full thing (so losing the extra heal at Level 16 from a pure is no biggie), and Cleric has some ways to hand out saves (which the Bard hasn't built for) and party buffs (which the Bard does some of, but more would never hurt). And it would be nice if they can dish out some good damage, as they are only serving as an off-tank and an off-healer, more or less. I think a Cleric can be built to do a bit of damage, but I think that's a Str Cleric, which then gives up some of the other stuff I was looking at.
I considered a Cleric/Warlord, focusing the Warlord side on the lazy so I didn't need a solid Str. It very much seems doable; Human so I can take Sonnilor's to have an MBA, the one that if I hit grants a save so I have a ranged attack (I always build characters with at least 1 range and 1 melee option) and the melee attack granter for Warlord. Then more attack granting encounters/dailies when present, otherwise encounters/dailies that buff, like the one that gives you an Aura 2 +2 Defenses until EoE.
However, I'm not entirely sold, yet. Is there something that might fit what I am trying to do better? Mind you, I'm not trying to do it all super great, but I am trying to round out the party (off-tank, off-healer, with damage/buffing potential). I'm not entirely stuck to Wis, but I liked it mainly to fill out the abilities and to have someone with a solid Heal (Why? No clue. To have it.). I've considered the Pure Cleric and even the Pure Warlord, but both feel like they give up part of what I am looking for. However, I may just not know them well enough to realize I can still get what I am looking for, just in a different way.
I've also considered other things, like Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Warlord, Paladin, etc., but nothing entirely in earnest, yet (mainly because the Fighter combos would be Str and I really don't need another Cha character; the Bard very much has that covered).
Anyone have any thoughts?
Although as a cleric it's far more likely that you'll push the bard toward 5th wheel but they're a bard that's kind of their thing.
If you want something broken as fuck let me tell you about my hybrids...otherwise I'd say roll tanky warlord or strikey fighter.
e: point of order, while Misdirected Mark is nice for hanging out a mark, the PH1 Fighter and the Warden are the only ones that can take best advantage of these marks. Anyone else who is assigned as the "mark-er" will not be able to punish.
Would a straight up Warlord offer the kind of buffing/save throw granting that a Cleric can? And what would you gain going straight Warlord over a Cleric/Warlord (or vice versa, what would you lose, that is really important, going Hybrid)?
And sure, tell me about your Hybrids, Tox.
And okay this hybrid is, again, broken as fuck, but you can play a hybrid Executioner Blackguard. Yeah it's the whole dark brooding thing, but you get a whole lot of extra damage. The downside is you're gonna wanna play a Cha race (Tieflings can even get a racial mark power).
There's also a really neat Halfelf Druid MC Shaman. Pretty much requires Paragon to be viable, but it's pretty fun.
As far as cleric goes I'd recommend playing a "classic" cleric and just taking the essentials powers. The e-cleric isn't quite as fun from everything I've seen and heard, and the wis-powers on the classic chassis is very good.
Can you build a Wis Cleric with good damage potential?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
And pretty good at whichever way they lean!
level 1
Human, Cleric/Warlord
Hybrid Cleric Option: Battle Cleric's Lore
Warlord Leadership Option: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord Option: Hybrid Warlord Fortitude
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Tymanther (Tymanther Benefit)
Theme: Stormraider
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 14, WIS 18, CHA 13
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 13
AC: 19 Fort: 13 Ref: 13 Will: 16
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +8, Endurance +6, Heal +9, Insight +9, Religion +7
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics –1, Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +4, History +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +4, Perception +4, Stealth –1, Streetwise +1, Thievery –1
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Stormraider Attack: Storm the Deck
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Cleric Attack 1: Sonnlinor's Hammer
Warlord Attack 1: Commander's Strike
Cleric Attack 1: Sacred Flame
Warlord Attack 1: Vengeance is Mine
Cleric Attack 1: Nimbus of Holy Shielding
FEATS
Level 1: Squire of Righteousness
Level 1: Battlewise
ITEMS
Longsword x1
Adventurer's Kit
Scale Armor x1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds
====== End ======
e: Thoughts/questions:
Did you consider any other Wis-based Cleric at-wills before settling on Sonnlinor's Hammer? There's a lot of them, and I don't remember what, if anything, stands out about that one. Also look at Direct the Strike, it's like Commander's Strike but allows for ranged basic attacks to be used as well, and it's I think ranged 5.
Granted, this doesn't solve the issue of being able to throw around other characters like a warlord can, but it doesn't lock you into playing a specific build of cleric, just "a cleric". And warpriests can have some pretty controllery or strikery styles, depending on what domain you choose. Here's a quick one I did using the Domination domain for more controller/taunty style attacks.
Amon Ra, level 1
Human, Cleric (Warpriest)
Domain: Domination Domain
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 10
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 10
AC: 18 Fort: 14 Ref: 13 Will: 16
HP: 26 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 6
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Diplomacy +5, Heal +9, History +5, Insight +9, Intimidate +5, Religion +5
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics –3, Athletics –1, Bluff +0, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance –1, Nature +4, Perception +4, Stealth –3, Streetwise +0, Thievery –3
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Paladin Feature: Virtue's Touch
Cleric Attack: Smite Undead
Cleric Utility: Cruel Inspiration
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Cleric Attack 1: Brand of the Sun
Cleric Utility 1: Inspire Dread
Cleric Attack 1: Fell Strike
Cleric Attack 1: Icon of Fear
Cleric Attack 1: Dread Revelation
Cleric Attack 1: Nimbus of Holy Shielding
FEATS
Level 1: Soldier of Virtue
Level 1: Battlewise
ITEMS
Holy Symbol x1
Chainmail x1
Heavy Shield x1
Mace x1
====== End ======
R*SC: BladeCruiser
Check out my GTAV-PC custom race tracks inspired by real life racing circuits!
@Slayer of Dreams Sacred Flame isn't as nice as Brand of the Sun, since you have to hit, but if you do they both grant a save. I wanted some ranged option, so Sacred Flame fit that bill (i.e. an potentially easy way to grant a save while also having a ranged option). I prefer the Squire of Righteousness feat for MC Paladin for the Defender Aura, since it fits how I envision the character. If there was another way (early on) for me to be able to mark (occasionally, even if I didn't have a way to enforce the mark), I'd definitely consider a different feat. While the character isn't a pure tank (and I'm not trying to be), I wanted some way to penalize targets for not focusing me if I am on top of them.
They are all good options, and I wish I could take more at-wills.
Juuust saying. Also I only did thst like twice before the DM basically stopped falling for it unless it was a very dumb monster.
Also just a point of order but if you're mc paladin you can take as many mc pally feats as you want, so even if this isn't the best option right now, you can always build on it later.
See, you of little faith?
I walked out of that room with a 2 whole hit points to spare!
Edit: Heck, I even had my second wind left!
....no surges but I had my second wind!
They all then decided to go help out the Paladin and Blackguard, most of which ended up bleeding out at some point as the Specter had a great habit of going invisible and then shouting to hit them all. The Druid, though, opted to fall into the room instead of climbing down (well, he didn't decide that, his Athletics check did.).
After battling the first room they took a rest and faced the Wraiths, of which managed to bring the Bard from full to dying in a single blow. Those Wraiths were no joke!
Scale Armor progresses from +7 at Level 1 to +13 at Level 30 (base armor, not including enhancement). If you toss the Specialization Feat (which requires 15 Dex, so my Cleric/Warlord won't be able to get it) you can get that to +14. With enhancement, you have a +20.
Leather Armor on a Rogue starts at +7 (+2 from Leather, +5 from Dex) and scales to +17 at Level 30 (+4 Leather, +10 Dex, +3 Elven Chain). With Enhancement, that's +23.
Is that right? I mean, I guess it makes sense; the Rogue has less health/surges so he makes up for that by being hit a bit less often (think evasion). But maybe I am missing something that would get the Scale up to +23? Could spend 2 feats for Plate + Plate Specialization for a +21, but that's quite the expense to still be below the Rogue while suffering a -1 Speed, -2 Check. Am I missing something?
I think there is something you should be questioning and it isn't Scale Mail.
Edit: nevermind, forgot that only applies to lighter armors.
I'm thinking you are right. I mean, there are other item bonuses you could get on scale; boots of the fencing master when you shift, or a number of armors that give some kind of AC bonus when you aren't (or are) bloodied, etc. Just nothing that is a straight bonus. Perhaps if Elven Chain Shirt was just a +1, for instance, even if it was like a level 14 item. It would still be nice, given it would boost Leather + Rhythm Blade to Scale + Shield level of armor, but as-is you'd need to invest in Plate + Plate Specialization + Heavy Shield + Shield Specialization (so, 3 feats, even for a Fighter) just to equal the AC of a Rogue in Leather with a Rhythm Blade and Elven Chain Shirt. No feat cost. For two feats (and Con) you can get Hide + Hide Specialization which would be +2 AC more than a fully optimized tank in Plate Armor.
I mean, like I said, a Rogue (or anyone in Leather) is indeed a bit more squishy, so having higher defenses isn't necessarily bad, but that's where situation bonuses (i.e. boots of the fencing master) or marks/debuffs should be used instead.
I dunno if I would disallow the item, as I am a Rogue deep down and love having the extra AC, but it does seems excessive.
Tonight's endeavor includes a controller minion that uses a range burst that slows and prevents shifting and slides one undead enemy in the burst 1 square. And if you kill the minion, it rises as an undead soldier minion that gets an OA if you attack one of its allies.
I also made a wraith that does the whole grab->Scary Damage thing.' Except that this wraith does its scary damage by partially phasing someone into an object, doing ongoing damage plus restrain. And it does the usual grab-and-drag, even while you're restrained, so it can grab you, restrain you by pulling you partially into the wall, and then drag you to the ceiling to hang by your ass until you break free and fall.
2/3 of the party is obsessed with alcohol, and they found an old still in a cabin in the woods awhile back. They had mounted the still in their Sherman tank, but that tank got caught in a nuclear explosion in a battle with a hovertank. They were sad about not having a mobile bar, at least until last session, when they found a self-constructing moon buggy on the remains of a disintegrating space station (random loot roll, I swear!).
They now have moved their still to their bus-sized moon buggy... they're looking to get off the moon, but not if they have to leave their moon buggy/still combo behind. I have to wonder why they can't make their own still with all their science and mechanical knowledge, but you know players and their loot.
Elven Chain Shirt
Wondrous Item
Level 9/19/29
Effect: While wearing light armor or no armor, when determining AC you can replace your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier with +4.
Level 19: You can replace your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier with +6.
Level 29: You can replace your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier with +8.
Now, if you are an Int/Dex primary, you don't end up with a huge extra bonus, but it helps fix the math for characters that are using no or light armor without Dex or Int as a primary. I.e.:
At Level 30:
Leather: +19 to +20 AC (+4 from Armor, +9/10 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
Hide: +20 to +21 AC (+5 from Armor, +9/10 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
Chainmail: +18 AC (+12 from Armor, +6 from Enhancement)
Scale: +19 AC (+13 from Armor, +6 from Enhancement)
Plate: +20 AC (+14 from Armor, +6 from Enhancement)
Leather (Elven Chain Shirt): +18 AC (+4 from Armor, +8 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
Hide (Elven Chain Shirt): +19 AC (+5 from Armor, +8 from Ability, +6 from Enhancement)
It's not perfect, but this way it serves a purpose, isn't overpowered and doesn't necessarily make Light Armor much better than Heavy for a non Dex/Int primary.
Next thing I am wondering, is does a new feat that adds a +1 feat bonus to AC for Leather/No Armor make sense? One exists for every other type of armor (including Hide). Most of the others also reduce a penalty, except for Plate.
As for adding the shield, my issue with that is a Shield is a Shield bonus, whereas the Elven Chain is an Item bonus. Plus, the shield carries a penalty and eats up a slot, of which the Elven Chain Shirt does not. Seems a bit ridiculous (and again, I love the Rogue) for a Rogue to be rocking a +24 AC (+10 Dex, +4 Armor, +6 Enhancement, +1 Rhythm Blade, +3 Elven Chain Shirt) with zero penalties, no feats used and the off-hand weapon that can make a ranged attack versus a Fighter who gets Plate Armor, Plate Specialization and Shield Specialization (3 feats), has a -4 Armor Check penalty, -1 Movement speed and can't do anything with their shield hand to get to +24 AC.
I am left with the question....is there a light armor class that doesn't have Dex/Int?
Though I guess I'm more left with preferring to steal something like Legend's Primary Defense Stat and Primary Offense Stat concept.
There is!
Unarmored Agility in the PHB3.
There is a feat (Unarmored Agility) that gives you a bonus when not wearing any armor. This brings them in par with Leather armor, since "Magic" cloth also gains a +1/2 with increasing enhancement bonus.
Not sure where you are going with the second point.
Edit: Regarding the second point. I don't claim this to be complete and I may have missed something:
Avenger: Wis Primary. Dex or Int is a Secondary/Tertiary. They get a +3 bonus to AC as long as they are wearing no armor and no shield. Assuming they get Dex or Int to 20, take Unarmored Agility and don't use a shield (which means Rhythm blade, too, most likely) they are looking at a +18 AC including Enhancement. With the Elven Chain Shirt change I suggested, they'd have a +21 AC (and they can't use a shield, so this is as good as it gets).
Barbarian: Str Primary. Dex or Int are not listed, but let's assume they have one as a tertiary for Reflex. If they get it to 20, which isn't entirely likely if they are using it as a Tertiary, they'd end, using Hide, at +19 (+5 Armor, +6 Enh, +5 Ability, +3 Class). They could use a shield, or at least a rhythm blade. With Elven Chain Shirt change, they'd have a +22. Since they can use a shield, this may result in a value higher than intended, since a pure Dex/Int in Hide and a starting 20 only gets to +21. This is one area where it may prove too strong.
Druid: Can use Con in place of Dex or Int. But Con isn't a primary. So in Hide, +16 AC assuming a 20 Con (+5 Armor, +6 Enh, +5 Abil). Here the Elven Chain Shirt change would bring them up to +19. This is a perfect example of what I was looking to help out.
Probably more. And I may be missing something that lets these classes use their primary for AC.
Of course
You mean like a Dracolich?
I ran an encounter like that once. It was very good times with the lich mostly having spells that supported or made the dragon much more effective (or recharged all of his abilities).
Introduction
The fey demesne known as the Principality of Pigments is a realm where the art of painting takes precedence above all other things. Painter-warlocks empowered by the arcane might of the enigmatic archfey known as the Painterly Potentate add to this realm with each brushstroke, supernaturally stripping mortal lands and peoples of their natural beauty so that it may be added to the archfey's evergrowing canvas.
Overview
- This fey demesne is ruled by the Painterly Potentate, a reclusive fey being that seems to alternate between a male Prince and female Princess persona. Most denizens of the realm refer to the archfey as the Painterly Potentate, though some alternate between the terms Prince and Princess, taking pains to ensure they don't overuse one at the expense of the other.
- Everything appears the way it does as defined by the works of painter-warlocks.
- The demography of this demesne is unusually diverse for a region of the Feywild. Figure models are typically very beautiful individuals from various humanoid races. Artists-in-residence are even more diverse in race and appearance, though they are required to supernaturally enhance their appearances through the application of flattering self-portraits.
- The society of this demesne is chaotic evil. Master painters rise to prominence and can fade away (figuratively and literally) as up-and-coming artists eclipse them in influence. Figure models are effectively slaves, property to be used-up and disposed of at worst and jealously possessed living canvases at best.
Important Facts
- From the perspective of outsiders in the natural world, the Principality of Pigments is composed of a modest number of scattered regions whose former beauty has been drained, replaced with blandness at best and hideousness at worst. Within the Feywild, however, these far-flung regions are organized into a contiguous whole. The grandeur stolen from their natural counterparts is heightened to a degree remarkable even for the Feywild. Most wondrous of all, the sky, sea, and everything between has a painterly appearance. In this realm the most accomplished painters are granted the godlike power of imposing their artworks upon the mystical reality of the Feywild itself, with each region a painting created by a powerful painter-warlock.
- The Painterly Potentate is said to be the magnum opus of the forgotten fey god of the arts, a painting that the unknown deity poured all its divine essence into creating (other archfey devoted to various forms of art make similar, usually mutually exclusive, claims). As a divine work of art come to life, the Painterly Potentate is the most sublime and ideal expression of beauty. Even light itself bends to the archfey noble, guaranteeing that any being who gains the privilege of personally witnessing the Painterly Potentate's loveliness will find an exquisite scene far superior to the even the greatest works of art. It takes incredible mental fortitude to not be blinded and driven to madness by the sight, but even those so afflicted only wish to regain their sight so that they can gaze upon the Painterly Potentate once more.
- The inhabitants of the Principality of Pigments are divided into several castes. The lowest caste is made-up of servants and soldiers who maintain and defend the demesne. Above them are models, men and women of various races who have been abducted to serve as inspiration for new paintings. Painters are the most powerful caste, as they are creators of beauty given arcane authority to add to and alter the Principality of Pigments as they see fit.
- The greatest painters inevitably draw the interest of aspiring artists eager to learn the techniques of the masters. Those painters who create applied studies of an old master's work learn and improve more quickly within the Principality of Pigments. The hidden truth is that these students are drawing directly upon the souls of their idols in much the same way that the divinely-invested draw upon the essence of their god. It takes little time at all for a newly risen master to have their essence nearly completely drained by the unknowing vampirism of his or her admirers, transforming them into a mere vestige. Those masters who catch the fancy of the Painterly Potentate are sustained for a time by undead fey known as vampiric muses, strange creatures that draw vitality from painters with little potential to siphon back to the masters. This service ends when the Painterly Potentate tires of the master's work and those paintings imitating it.
- The economy of the Principality of Pigments is based upon beauty, which in the skilled hands of the Painterly Potentate's painter-warlocks can be treated as finite resource for those who rely on possessing it rather than creating it. Most models quickly have all their natural beauty sapped from them and transferred into a painting, which the artist-warlocks may animate as magical servants. These spent individuals are then returned to the mortal world as hideous mockeries of their former selves. A lucky few models who gain the favor of a patron do not have their beauty tarnished by his or her work. Instead, they become living canvases whose appearance is augmented by their painter using the applied essence of beauty taken from others. These greater models can then transfer their excess loveliness however they see fit; a few altruistic individuals even restore lesser models. However, a greater model must take care that they do not sacrifice too much of their beauty, as this could compromise their value as a work of art.
- Surprisingly, ideals of beauty within the Principality are much more diverse than in mortal cultures. Though elven races are still held-up as being the most ideal, various visual aspects of other races are appreciated as well. As a general rule, if it is possible for a creature of the world to see beauty in something, no matter how atypical such a conception might be to those outside the Principality of Pigments, then it is beautiful. Only the most alien conceptions of beauty, such as those of aberrants, are rejected. However, there are those who still wonder: What is the nature of beauty in the eye of a Beholder?
- Some corrupted models hide in the remote reaches of the Principality of Pigments. Their presence can cause the beauty of the land around them to fade, increasing the risk that they will be found out. These enclaves of ugliness have in the past attracted eccentric painters that have become bored of depicting beauty and instead want to capture the essence of hideousness on canvas; unfortunately for the models, the painters cannot remove ugliness in the same way as beauty. A few renegade painters have formed a hidden blackmarket in the Principality of Pigments in which beauty is traded for ugliness. While they could use this excess beauty to restore their hideous models, it is rare for a painter to wish to ruin their model's worth.
- The Principality of Pigments and the Painterly Potentate are just one of the fey demesnes and archfey devoted to the arts, although it is likely one of the cruelest. Others specializing in disciplines such as music, storytelling, sculpture, and even arcane and martial arts exist. Immortals known as lillends are associated with these realms. As they are known for their goodness, their relationship to the evil society of the Principality of Pigments is no doubt complex.
EDIT: Never mind, found them. Here they are if anyone is interested: