Also - once a game has been out like 2/3 years, and the publisher is unlikely to make much more profit, they should release a patch that removes any copy protection, and allows people without a serial to play online.
This is for games that are not still selling, so not like WoW or anything, but whenever a publisher has stopped making significant amounts of money from the game.
Just because by this time, the number of people who have bought the game second hand/lost the case will outnumber those who would buy the game, except they don't have to because they can torrent it.
It reminds me of the abandonware argument. However, abandonware would be significantly less relevant given services like GameTap, and once companies get organised, their own digital distribution methods for their back catalogues.
It reminds me of the abandonware argument. However, abandonware would be significantly less relevant given services like GameTap, and once companies get organised, their own digital distribution methods for their back catalogues.
Ahh businesses reselling my childhood memories for fun and profits. The sad thing is that I will buy them anyways.
It reminds me of the abandonware argument. However, abandonware would be significantly less relevant given services like GameTap, and once companies get organised, their own digital distribution methods for their back catalogues.
Ahh businesses reselling my childhood memories for fun and profits. The sad thing is that I will buy them anyways.
Yeah.
That said, Rare selling me an updated, remade version of Jetpac with online multiplayer and HD graphickery for $5 is far more palatable than Nintendo selling me a shoddily-ported and not-even-slightly-updated GBA version of Super Mario Bros for $20.
If you drop wholesalers and retailers, you essentially remove the entire purpose of a publisher aside from PR. A lot of developers are taking control of the PR process in any case, especially with the rise of the internet which means that direct contact with the people who have the information you want as a consumer is far easier.
While online sales of boxed products are presumably a fairly good business, I can't imagine that it's a huge success. I can't think of a single major online games store, nor do I see major stores like EB moving into that space, which is vastly different to how I see music/movie stores moving.
Whether it is developers or publishers, I'd be happy to order from either.
I order more than 75% of my games online, and I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of other people doing the same.
The customers that aren't willing to order their games off the internet probably aren't willing to use digital distribution for most of their purchases either. So the traditional B&M retail stores can keep on serving them (with the price premium that goes along with that).
It reminds me of the abandonware argument. However, abandonware would be significantly less relevant given services like GameTap, and once companies get organised, their own digital distribution methods for their back catalogues.
Ahh businesses reselling my childhood memories for fun and profits. The sad thing is that I will buy them anyways.
Yeah.
That said, Rare selling me an updated, remade version of Jetpac with online multiplayer and HD graphickery for $5 is far more palatable than Nintendo selling me a shoddily-ported and not-even-slightly-updated GBA version of Super Mario Bros for $20.
The best part about that is Super Mario Brothers DX for the GBC was selling for around $10 used at the time, and featured a ton of extra features. And that's not even considering the fact that they could have released a Mario All Stars for the GBA instead of making people pay $30 a piece for NES ports of the later games in the series.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind the whole having my childhood memories raped for fun and profit if the prices were more realistic. The only games that are still available are usually ridiculously overpriced. I love DOOM II as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pay $20 for it. $15 for Wolfenstien 3D, and $10 more for Spear of Destiny? No thanks. How about $10 a piece for Duke Nukem I and II? Or $20 for Duke Nukem 3D? $15 for Raptor: Call of the Shadows? These are actual prices from id Software and 3D Realms' websites.
If any games should be available for digital distribution on the cheap, it's classic software.
It reminds me of the abandonware argument. However, abandonware would be significantly less relevant given services like GameTap, and once companies get organised, their own digital distribution methods for their back catalogues.
Ahh businesses reselling my childhood memories for fun and profits. The sad thing is that I will buy them anyways.
Yeah.
That said, Rare selling me an updated, remade version of Jetpac with online multiplayer and HD graphickery for $5 is far more palatable than Nintendo selling me a shoddily-ported and not-even-slightly-updated GBA version of Super Mario Bros for $20.
The best part about that is Super Mario Brothers DX for the GBC was selling for around $10 used at the time, and featured a ton of extra features. And that's not even considering the fact that they could have released a Mario All Stars for the GBA instead of making people pay $30 a piece for NES ports of the later games in the series.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind the whole having my childhood memories raped for fun and profit if the prices were more realistic. The only games that are still available are usually ridiculously overpriced. I love DOOM II as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pay $20 for it. $15 for Wolfenstien 3D, and $10 more for Spear of Destiny? No thanks. How about $10 a piece for Duke Nukem I and II? Or $20 for Duke Nukem 3D? $15 for Raptor: Call of the Shadows? These are actual prices from id Software and 3D Realms' websites.
If any games should be available for digital distribution on the cheap, it's classic software.
Fair points all. It stung when I blew $10 on Doom on Xbox Live Arcade for the 360, but I knew I'd get my money's worth out of it. I have, easily. I'd pay $10 more each for Doom II and Final Doom, and Duke Nukem 3D, with the ol' Xbox Live play that Doom had. Wolfenstein 3D I don't feel the need to buy again, but it shouldn't be over $5. The others... not that fussed.
But I agree those current prices are downright silly.
But I agree those current prices are downright silly.
Prices for old games are often a bit high, but I've spent more time playing Super Mario World on my Wii than F.E.A.R. on my PC, so Super Mario World is actually worth more to me. If I had paid $30 for it, I still would have got my value for money.
But then, I never had a SNES.
If you're just buying an old game to have five minutes of nostalgia, then $10-20 is too high. But for real classics like Wolfenstein 3D or Super Mario World that will get some decent play-time, that's good value for money.
But I agree those current prices are downright silly.
Prices for old games are often a bit high, but I've spent more time playing Super Mario World on my Wii than F.E.A.R. on my PC, so Super Mario World is actually worth more to me. If I had paid $30 for it, I still would have got my value for money.
But then, I never had a SNES.
If you're just buying an old game to have five minutes of nostalgia, then $10-20 is too high. But for real classics like Wolfenstein 3D or Super Mario World that will get some decent play-time, that's good value for money.
Remember you're talking to the guy who spent $600 on a S.T.U.N. Runner arcade machine.
But I agree those current prices are downright silly.
Prices for old games are often a bit high, but I've spent more time playing Super Mario World on my Wii than F.E.A.R. on my PC, so Super Mario World is actually worth more to me. If I had paid $30 for it, I still would have got my value for money.
But then, I never had a SNES.
If you're just buying an old game to have five minutes of nostalgia, then $10-20 is too high. But for real classics like Wolfenstein 3D or Super Mario World that will get some decent play-time, that's good value for money.
The only thing that bothers me about it is that I've already bought, in some form or another, DOOM for the PC, Saturn, PS1, and GBA. I have Duke Nukem 3D on the PC, PS1, and Saturn as well. I've owned Wolfenstien on both the PC and GBA. I've spent a lot of money on these games already, so it sucks that I'd have to spend so much more to replace them.
I'm unhappy that I'm expected to pay such a high price for a game that isn't readily available, so I have no other option that will leave me feeling good. I see DOOM on the 360 as a cool investment, since even though it's $10 it (unless I'm mistaken) includes online play over Live and has Thy Flesh Consumed from Ultimate DOOM, but the game has been out on the PC for almost 15 years.
But we're totally derailing a thread that is supposed to be about distributing games, and I apologise.
Although it's related in a sense of price difference that you would assume would be varied depending on the method of distribution, since the dev would have a much lower overhead, and could then (but hasn't yet) "pass the savings" onto us consumers.
The only thing that bothers me about it is that I've already bought, in some form or another, DOOM for the PC, Saturn, PS1, and GBA. I have Duke Nukem 3D on the PC, PS1, and Saturn as well. I've owned Wolfenstien on both the PC and GBA. I've spent a lot of money on these games already, so it sucks that I'd have to spend so much more to replace them.
I think that's an interesting point.
Media replacement is something that has been terrible with games. If your disk/CD/cartridge dies, then you are basically screwed. If the game is fairly new, then the publisher might replace it for a small fee, but replacing media for older games basically means buying a new copy.
I'm not sure if digital distribution will improve matters or not. Theoretically, you should be able to re-download your games as many times as you want if you lose them, but that assumes that the distribution systems last forever.
I think there is an issue with most development houses seeing digital distribution as gravy money. A lot of you guys are having issues with your gaming memories being abused for what essentially is pure profit, as you should. However, compare the prices of some of these games to what up and coming studios are charging for their stuff on XBLA, Totalgaming.net and other digital distribution methods.
What comes to my mind when I do is that companies who use digital distribution as another revenue stream have not put the effort into researching and projecting what they might expect to make out of digital distribution, in terms of both total revenue and customers served. While everyone is after profit, there are ways to attain greater profit through greater customers served rather than just jacking the price up as far as a large number of people are willing to pay.
Because it's not a core business focus for them, they aren't putting in the thought or research in how to properly attain marketshare and sustainability through digital distribution. When we, as gamers, create a situation where it becomes more important to them, then you will see price breakthroughs and more incentive as they compete for the digital distribution dollar.
I'm not sure if digital distribution will improve matters or not. Theoretically, you should be able to re-download your games as many times as you want if you lose them, but that assumes that the distribution systems last forever.
I think digital distribution may not last forever, but in the same way that television shows are saved despite individual studios going under, etc you will see a far greater life for that section of the game library which falls to unfortunate circumstances. I would point to Steam and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. Troika Games is no more, yet VtMB has hit Steam, and I expect it will continue to be on Steam for the remainder of its life.
This same thing may have happen with a reissue of the game in physical copy at some point, but now you have the game always available to you, with no need to hunt for it.
Regarding buying games for multiple platforms, there is a way that digital distribution could help there too. Run a scenario past you - 7 years into the future you have a game developer releasing for multiple platforms at once. Each platform has digital distribution methods that they can utilise. Imagine they can identify you as the same person across all platforms. Say you have a uber-next gen console, find you really enjoy the game and want to play it on your uber-next gen handheld as well. What is better for the company:
A) Expect you to buy two SKUs, one for each platform, at full EB/GameStop price. Allow you to buy via DD, at a discount of maybe 10%. Then buy the second at a discount of 50% through it's DD system.
I can't speak for you guys, but I wouldn't take option A 99% of the time. I would, however, be interested in option B. And even with my basic figures, with option A I'd only pay 100%. With option B, I'd be looking at 140%. The costs for developing are essentially the same for both options. But with option B you not only pick up more revenue because you aren't dealing with publishers and retail, but the amount of money the consumer is willing to give you has increased by 40%.
Online distrubition of games won't really become popular until the broadband companies stop offering stupidly low download limits
Get Ultramegahypersuperfast broadband. Play games, shop, surf the internet. 1gb a month download rate.
I have to say I'm fairly fortunate in that I'm paid well for what I do, and I live in Australia "in town". I have access to ADSL2+, and my download limit is 40 gig a month and I pay about $45USD. I don't live in the city, and I am not really isolated in having access to these kinds of plans.
I'm not sure what the situation is like in America, but I'd have to imagine from what I've heard from friends over there, it's a better situation in most cities if you shop around?
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Descendant XSkyrim is my god now.Outpost 31Registered Userregular
Online distrubition of games won't really become popular until the broadband companies stop offering stupidly low download limits
Get Ultramegahypersuperfast broadband. Play games, shop, surf the internet. 1gb a month download rate.
I have to say I'm fairly fortunate in that I'm paid well for what I do, and I live in Australia "in town". I have access to ADSL2+, and my download limit is 40 gig a month and I pay about $45USD. I don't live in the city, and I am not really isolated in having access to these kinds of plans.
I'm not sure what the situation is like in America, but I'd have to imagine from what I've heard from friends over there, it's a better situation in most cities if you shop around?
I don't know about the States, but in BC we have two choices, Shaw or Telus. Cable or DSL. Both have download limits that aren't strictly enforced (I've never received a letter from Shaw concerned about my bandwidth.) The only problem I have is that Shaw limits torrent bandwidth. I'd go with Telus, but bad experiences with them a few years back puts the kibosh on that idea.
Regarding online distribution, I'm with the blokes who buy in-store. I like having hard copies of my games and distrust online distribution. If I spend $50 on a game, I'd better be able to pop it in whenever I feel like it and play it.
Descendant X on
Garry: I know you gentlemen have been through a lot, but when you find the time I'd rather not spend the rest of the winter TIED TO THIS FUCKING COUCH!
GUYS GUYS
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
And yeah, hard copies are AWESOME. Just like my copy of the original Wing Commander... Sitting on my shelf in all it's 5"1/4 glory (goodness, the imperial system is retarded). And yeah, there is no big floppy drive anywhere near me. Those disks will never know the gentle caress of the disk drive again. HOW SAD IS THAT!?
I actually shed a single tear every morning when I wake up and realize I can't subscribe to Gametap, because they don't like people from outside of the US/CA. Gametap is the most awesome thing ever coded by human hands. Steam is still by good friend, anyway, THEY like me and let me buy Jade Empire before it's even released in my country.
GUYS GUYS
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
This is sheer awesome right there. It makes me all the more hopeful for my vision of a future where digital distribution is truly a viable business decision for mainstream, AAA games.
GUYS GUYS
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
This is sheer awesome right there. It makes me all the more hopeful for my vision of a future where digital distribution is truly a viable business decision for mainstream, AAA games.
Except I'd rather have a pressed copy of a disc with cover art, a manual, and a box than something that just says "Memorex" on it.
edit: Especially considering I'm paying the same price.
GUYS GUYS
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
This is sheer awesome right there. It makes me all the more hopeful for my vision of a future where digital distribution is truly a viable business decision for mainstream, AAA games.
Except I'd rather have a pressed copy of a disc with cover art, a manual, and a box than something that just says "Memorex" on it.
edit: Especially considering I'm paying the same price.
I'd also like to be able to play my games without connecting to the Internet. When I retire a PC, I might still play some old games on it, but odds are that I've yanked the Ethernet cord out of it.
Online distribution doesn't let me sell the game used after I'm done with it. So to me, online distribution is vastly inferior to what we got now. If they ever let me sell my downloaded games to other people easily, then it will be the way to go.
On a related note.. I buy almost all my games on Ebay used. If I was a game publisher, I'd probably try to sell a game on Ebay exclusively. Don't even bother with the retailers. Instead, put out an effective advertising campaign that says "This game is only available on Ebay!" I really see little to no point behind game retailers. They don't let you try out the games (besides the kiosks, which have demos that you can download at home anyway). Their selection is extremely limited. The only reason I can see for keeping game retailers around is that they can deal with cash transactions, something Ebay's Paypal doesn't do. Cash must be an important thing to take in since so many gamers are young and don't have credit cards yet.
GUYS GUYS
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
This is sheer awesome right there. It makes me all the more hopeful for my vision of a future where digital distribution is truly a viable business decision for mainstream, AAA games.
Except I'd rather have a pressed copy of a disc with cover art, a manual, and a box than something that just says "Memorex" on it.
edit: Especially considering I'm paying the same price.
Only I didn't pay the same price.
And you're putting the secondary issues before the primary ones...
GUYS GUYS
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
This is sheer awesome right there. It makes me all the more hopeful for my vision of a future where digital distribution is truly a viable business decision for mainstream, AAA games.
Except I'd rather have a pressed copy of a disc with cover art, a manual, and a box than something that just says "Memorex" on it.
edit: Especially considering I'm paying the same price.
I'd also like to be able to play my games without connecting to the Internet. When I retire a PC, I might still play some old games on it, but odds are that I've yanked the Ethernet cord out of it.
So your problem is that you can't plug the ethernet cable back in? :O
Online distribution doesn't let me sell the game used after I'm done with it. So to me, online distribution is vastly inferior to what we got now. If they ever let me sell my downloaded games to other people easily, then it will be the way to go.
On a related note.. I buy almost all my games on Ebay used. If I was a game publisher, I'd probably try to sell a game on Ebay exclusively. Don't even bother with the retailers. Instead, put out an effective advertising campaign that says "This game is only available on Ebay!" I really see little to no point behind game retailers. They don't let you try out the games (besides the kiosks, which have demos that you can download at home anyway). Their selection is extremely limited. The only reason I can see for keeping game retailers around is that they can deal with cash transactions, something Ebay's Paypal doesn't do. Cash must be an important thing to take in since so many gamers are young and don't have credit cards yet.
Okay, look at it this way. Everytime you sell a game on, that's a sale that a developer doesn't get.
If they didn't have to deal with a secondary games market, I'm sure that many would be happy to service more customers, at a reduced price. Goodwill is a currency that many developers know the meaning of. Despite what you may argue about profit being the only thing a company is worried about, short-term focus on goodwill turns into long-term profit.
I see parallels between the secondary games market (and justifying it by the fact that games are 'expensive') and some of coworkers who talk about scamming the government out of money on their tax return, and then bitch that the government is always raising taxes here and there because they need the money to give services to the taxpayer.
Except I'd rather have a pressed copy of a disc with cover art, a manual, and a box than something that just says "Memorex" on it.
edit: Especially considering I'm paying the same price.
Mate, as said before, there's nothing stopping the developer sending you a copy of all that stuff if you pay for the 'whole game experience' via DD. Think of it as a set of options, after you play the demo.
- Buy another $5 worth of content. One time purchase, intended to win those over who may want to see more but aren't sure.
- Buy full game. $45
- Buy full game plus bonus content! $55 Manual, hard copy in nice case, little map. Plus you have your DD copy always available.
I see this as a far better situation than what we currently endure, especially considering the near useless nature of publishers nowadays, aside from massive projects that 'need' upfront capital.
I'd also like to be able to play my games without connecting to the Internet. When I retire a PC, I might still play some old games on it, but odds are that I've yanked the Ethernet cord out of it.
Where does it say that everything is going to run like Steam and you must be connected to the internet to play the games. Think outside the box!
I'd also like to be able to play my games without connecting to the Internet. When I retire a PC, I might still play some old games on it, but odds are that I've yanked the Ethernet cord out of it.
Where does it say that everything is going to run like Steam and you must be connected to the internet to play the games. Think outside the box!
And you don't need to be connected to the internet to use steam. They fixed that a long time ago.
So your problem is that you can't plug the ethernet cable back in? :O
The problem is if Valve goes bankrupt and the Steam servers are taken down. Your backed-up Steam repository could possibly be incomplete, requiring some downloads before you can play.
The old C&C games had a proprietary multiplayer system. When Westwood was bought out, it was taken down, and online support for those games was effectively ended. The same could happen with online distribution services, except you could lose the ability to play your games at all.
Arent steam starting to charge more to euro cutomers...
...yeah
I don't think that's Steam or Valves choice. It's what publishers want to do. Obviously if you have a game being released that you know is going to be popular in market A, and not in market B you can charge more in market A and lower the price in market B to encourage sales. This isn't something that's new, it's just more obvious with steam.
Arent steam starting to charge more to euro cutomers...
...yeah
I don't think that's Steam or Valves choice. It's what publishers want to do. Obviously if you have a game being released that you know is going to be popular in market A, and not in market B you can charge more in market A and lower the price in market B to encourage sales. This isn't something that's new, it's just more obvious with steam.
It works the other way too. Games are super-cheap in Thailand, so you can just buy a copy from there for $20 or so.
Some online Thai stores will even just email you the code for Steam, so you can enter it in without having the box shipped to you (of course, this only works with games that are released both on Steam and in a box).
So your problem is that you can't plug the ethernet cable back in? :O
The problem is if Valve goes bankrupt and the Steam servers are taken down. Your backed-up Steam repository could possibly be incomplete, requiring some downloads before you can play.
The old C&C games had a proprietary multiplayer system. When Westwood was bought out, it was taken down, and online support for those games was effectively ended. The same could happen with online distribution services, except you could lose the ability to play your games at all.
It's a moot point, someone pointed out you can play your Steam games while not online.
You run basically a similar risk of your discs being stolen/broken/whatever. However, you see game companies rolled over into other companies quite regularly. I'm sure you can agree that Steam would be generating a fair amount of money, and I would see no reason for those who inherit Valve's corpse to not redeploy it.
It works the other way too. Games are super-cheap in Thailand, so you can just buy a copy from there for $20 or so.
Some online Thai stores will even just email you the code for Steam, so you can enter it in without having the box shipped to you.
The world's becoming smaller. Most things on the internet nowadays, when you buy, don't discriminate between countries unless it's because they have legal stuff to deal with. See iTunes, Bittorrent.com. You have to take a bit of a long view, I believe, and see some of this in context.
Reducing publisher considerations and involvement, I believe, will clear a lot of these territorial pricing considerations.
The problem is if Valve goes bankrupt and the Steam servers are taken down. Your backed-up Steam repository could possibly be incomplete, requiring some downloads before you can play.
The old C&C games had a proprietary multiplayer system. When Westwood was bought out, it was taken down, and online support for those games was effectively ended. The same could happen with online distribution services, except you could lose the ability to play your games at all.
It's a moot point, someone pointed out you can play your Steam games while not online.
Yes, but the problem is if you format your HDD.
With a boxed game, you just reinstall it. With a Steam game, you just re-download it.
But, if the Steam servers were switched off, you would have to download the Steam client from somewhere, re-install it, find the backup CD you burned, then hope your backup is up-to-date and complete, then import it into Steam and cross your fingers.
It would be a much more complicated and error-prone process.
I still play games from the early 1990s regularly... I was just playing Gobliiins yesterday. I'd like to be able to easily play HL2 in 15 years too.
I'd argue you'd have more chance of having scratched discs, incompatible hardware/software to load the media. But it's a personal opinion thing and I don't think a point most people will budge on from their initial position. I do believe this is a very minor issue on the face of things, and would not stop any kind of progression from hoarding boxes of disks to having everything at your disposal both in DVDR, hard drive and remote server form.
I'd argue you'd have more chance of having scratched discs, incompatible hardware/software to load the media. But it's a personal opinion thing and I don't think a point most people will budge on from their initial position. I do believe this is a very minor issue on the face of things, and would not stop any kind of progression from hoarding boxes of disks to having everything at your disposal both in DVDR, hard drive and remote server form.
As long as once I download a game from the service I don't have to connect to that service to play it, I think it'd be okay. That's my gripe with Steam (or the way it used to work anyhow). There's no reason for a one-player game that I've paid for to call home every time I want to play it. If I can download my episode of Nifty Game X and play it at my leisure without verifying the purchase every time, that'd be fine with me.
I'd still probably buy the boxed version because I like boxes and manuals and whatnot, but that's neither here nor there.
I can see DD becoming a standard on the PC scene in the near future. But I don't see it being used on consoles for anything other than what we're seeing on the Virtual Console and the Live Arcade any time soon. If given a choice, I would always pick the boxed version. I like having a physical game collection. If my choices were removed, and DD was the only option, I wouldn't quit gaming. But I would be unhappy.
As Steam has taken the step (as you acknowledged, Jclast) of not needing to re-authenticate each time it starts a game, it would look like the future is rosy in that regard.
How about if you could have all those boxes and manuals, but at a cheaper price? Digital distribution would have the potential to allow that. Think of it as an optional extra when you purchase the game after you've demoed it. Full game might be $39USD all up, extra $9 and you could get a box and manuals posted out to you.
I think the main point I'm trying to get across (and I promise I'll stop reiterating my points, I just realised how late it is and how much I must be regurgitating at this stage) is that digital distribution would only really take away the publisher and retail component of the whole game sale flowchart. Flexibility is key, especially with more money going back to the developer. There are many options, when you step back and look at it, that digital distribution could be used in combination with to assure you folks out there that your tangible, collectible experience would remain.
...How about if you could have all those boxes and manuals, but at a cheaper price? Digital distribution would have the potential to allow that. Think of it as an optional extra when you purchase the game after you've demoed it. Full game might be $39USD all up, extra $9 and you could get a box and manuals posted out to you...
I mentioned that earlier, and that would be the best of both worlds. I would get my game immediately, and would also have a disc, box, and manual a week or so later. That way, people who don't really mind not having a box and manual wouldn't have to pay for one either.
Problem is, publishers are pretty content charging $49.99USD for a copy of a game in the store, and developers are pretty content charging $49.99USD for a digital copy of the same exact game.
Problem is, publishers are pretty content charging $49.99USD for a copy of a game in the store, and developers are pretty content charging $49.99USD for a digital copy of the same exact game.
I agree this is the current situation. However, at the moment you basically have publishers determining price points in the industry, because there is no significant DD-only development happening. I think that most developers have a better understanding of the industry from the viewpoint of a consumer than most publishers.
Following from that, I expect that if you essentially had a direct channel between developer and consumer, you would end up with cheaper goods sold to a higher number of people, which results in a greater profit in the short term (more $$, although less $ per customer) and long term (more customers means more word of mouth, and with digital distribution your product doesn't fall off the shelves in 3 months).
I am hoping that developers are as excited about what the future holds for this kind of supplier/consumer interaction in the video game market space. I see no reason for them not to be, based on my (albeit limited direct) knowledge of the developers in today's video game industry.
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It reminds me of the abandonware argument. However, abandonware would be significantly less relevant given services like GameTap, and once companies get organised, their own digital distribution methods for their back catalogues.
Ahh businesses reselling my childhood memories for fun and profits. The sad thing is that I will buy them anyways.
Yeah.
That said, Rare selling me an updated, remade version of Jetpac with online multiplayer and HD graphickery for $5 is far more palatable than Nintendo selling me a shoddily-ported and not-even-slightly-updated GBA version of Super Mario Bros for $20.
Steam | XBL
Whether it is developers or publishers, I'd be happy to order from either.
I order more than 75% of my games online, and I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of other people doing the same.
The customers that aren't willing to order their games off the internet probably aren't willing to use digital distribution for most of their purchases either. So the traditional B&M retail stores can keep on serving them (with the price premium that goes along with that).
The best part about that is Super Mario Brothers DX for the GBC was selling for around $10 used at the time, and featured a ton of extra features. And that's not even considering the fact that they could have released a Mario All Stars for the GBA instead of making people pay $30 a piece for NES ports of the later games in the series.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind the whole having my childhood memories raped for fun and profit if the prices were more realistic. The only games that are still available are usually ridiculously overpriced. I love DOOM II as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pay $20 for it. $15 for Wolfenstien 3D, and $10 more for Spear of Destiny? No thanks. How about $10 a piece for Duke Nukem I and II? Or $20 for Duke Nukem 3D? $15 for Raptor: Call of the Shadows? These are actual prices from id Software and 3D Realms' websites.
If any games should be available for digital distribution on the cheap, it's classic software.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Fair points all. It stung when I blew $10 on Doom on Xbox Live Arcade for the 360, but I knew I'd get my money's worth out of it. I have, easily. I'd pay $10 more each for Doom II and Final Doom, and Duke Nukem 3D, with the ol' Xbox Live play that Doom had. Wolfenstein 3D I don't feel the need to buy again, but it shouldn't be over $5. The others... not that fussed.
But I agree those current prices are downright silly.
Steam | XBL
Prices for old games are often a bit high, but I've spent more time playing Super Mario World on my Wii than F.E.A.R. on my PC, so Super Mario World is actually worth more to me. If I had paid $30 for it, I still would have got my value for money.
But then, I never had a SNES.
If you're just buying an old game to have five minutes of nostalgia, then $10-20 is too high. But for real classics like Wolfenstein 3D or Super Mario World that will get some decent play-time, that's good value for money.
Steam | XBL
The only thing that bothers me about it is that I've already bought, in some form or another, DOOM for the PC, Saturn, PS1, and GBA. I have Duke Nukem 3D on the PC, PS1, and Saturn as well. I've owned Wolfenstien on both the PC and GBA. I've spent a lot of money on these games already, so it sucks that I'd have to spend so much more to replace them.
I'm unhappy that I'm expected to pay such a high price for a game that isn't readily available, so I have no other option that will leave me feeling good. I see DOOM on the 360 as a cool investment, since even though it's $10 it (unless I'm mistaken) includes online play over Live and has Thy Flesh Consumed from Ultimate DOOM, but the game has been out on the PC for almost 15 years.
But we're totally derailing a thread that is supposed to be about distributing games, and I apologise.
Although it's related in a sense of price difference that you would assume would be varied depending on the method of distribution, since the dev would have a much lower overhead, and could then (but hasn't yet) "pass the savings" onto us consumers.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
I think that's an interesting point.
Media replacement is something that has been terrible with games. If your disk/CD/cartridge dies, then you are basically screwed. If the game is fairly new, then the publisher might replace it for a small fee, but replacing media for older games basically means buying a new copy.
I'm not sure if digital distribution will improve matters or not. Theoretically, you should be able to re-download your games as many times as you want if you lose them, but that assumes that the distribution systems last forever.
What comes to my mind when I do is that companies who use digital distribution as another revenue stream have not put the effort into researching and projecting what they might expect to make out of digital distribution, in terms of both total revenue and customers served. While everyone is after profit, there are ways to attain greater profit through greater customers served rather than just jacking the price up as far as a large number of people are willing to pay.
Because it's not a core business focus for them, they aren't putting in the thought or research in how to properly attain marketshare and sustainability through digital distribution. When we, as gamers, create a situation where it becomes more important to them, then you will see price breakthroughs and more incentive as they compete for the digital distribution dollar.
In my opinion, of course.
Get Ultramegahypersuperfast broadband. Play games, shop, surf the internet. 1gb a month download rate.
I think digital distribution may not last forever, but in the same way that television shows are saved despite individual studios going under, etc you will see a far greater life for that section of the game library which falls to unfortunate circumstances. I would point to Steam and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. Troika Games is no more, yet VtMB has hit Steam, and I expect it will continue to be on Steam for the remainder of its life.
This same thing may have happen with a reissue of the game in physical copy at some point, but now you have the game always available to you, with no need to hunt for it.
Regarding buying games for multiple platforms, there is a way that digital distribution could help there too. Run a scenario past you - 7 years into the future you have a game developer releasing for multiple platforms at once. Each platform has digital distribution methods that they can utilise. Imagine they can identify you as the same person across all platforms. Say you have a uber-next gen console, find you really enjoy the game and want to play it on your uber-next gen handheld as well. What is better for the company:
A) Expect you to buy two SKUs, one for each platform, at full EB/GameStop price.
I can't speak for you guys, but I wouldn't take option A 99% of the time. I would, however, be interested in option B. And even with my basic figures, with option A I'd only pay 100%. With option B, I'd be looking at 140%. The costs for developing are essentially the same for both options. But with option B you not only pick up more revenue because you aren't dealing with publishers and retail, but the amount of money the consumer is willing to give you has increased by 40%.
I have to say I'm fairly fortunate in that I'm paid well for what I do, and I live in Australia "in town". I have access to ADSL2+, and my download limit is 40 gig a month and I pay about $45USD. I don't live in the city, and I am not really isolated in having access to these kinds of plans.
I'm not sure what the situation is like in America, but I'd have to imagine from what I've heard from friends over there, it's a better situation in most cities if you shop around?
I don't know about the States, but in BC we have two choices, Shaw or Telus. Cable or DSL. Both have download limits that aren't strictly enforced (I've never received a letter from Shaw concerned about my bandwidth.) The only problem I have is that Shaw limits torrent bandwidth. I'd go with Telus, but bad experiences with them a few years back puts the kibosh on that idea.
Regarding online distribution, I'm with the blokes who buy in-store. I like having hard copies of my games and distrust online distribution. If I spend $50 on a game, I'd better be able to pop it in whenever I feel like it and play it.
STEAM LETS YOU BURN A DISC WITH THE GAMES YOU BOUGHT!!!!!
And yeah, hard copies are AWESOME. Just like my copy of the original Wing Commander... Sitting on my shelf in all it's 5"1/4 glory (goodness, the imperial system is retarded). And yeah, there is no big floppy drive anywhere near me. Those disks will never know the gentle caress of the disk drive again. HOW SAD IS THAT!?
I actually shed a single tear every morning when I wake up and realize I can't subscribe to Gametap, because they don't like people from outside of the US/CA. Gametap is the most awesome thing ever coded by human hands. Steam is still by good friend, anyway, THEY like me and let me buy Jade Empire before it's even released in my country.
...yeah
This is sheer awesome right there. It makes me all the more hopeful for my vision of a future where digital distribution is truly a viable business decision for mainstream, AAA games.
Except I'd rather have a pressed copy of a disc with cover art, a manual, and a box than something that just says "Memorex" on it.
edit: Especially considering I'm paying the same price.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
I'd also like to be able to play my games without connecting to the Internet. When I retire a PC, I might still play some old games on it, but odds are that I've yanked the Ethernet cord out of it.
On a related note.. I buy almost all my games on Ebay used. If I was a game publisher, I'd probably try to sell a game on Ebay exclusively. Don't even bother with the retailers. Instead, put out an effective advertising campaign that says "This game is only available on Ebay!" I really see little to no point behind game retailers. They don't let you try out the games (besides the kiosks, which have demos that you can download at home anyway). Their selection is extremely limited. The only reason I can see for keeping game retailers around is that they can deal with cash transactions, something Ebay's Paypal doesn't do. Cash must be an important thing to take in since so many gamers are young and don't have credit cards yet.
Only I didn't pay the same price.
And you're putting the secondary issues before the primary ones...
So your problem is that you can't plug the ethernet cable back in? :O
Okay, look at it this way. Everytime you sell a game on, that's a sale that a developer doesn't get.
If they didn't have to deal with a secondary games market, I'm sure that many would be happy to service more customers, at a reduced price. Goodwill is a currency that many developers know the meaning of. Despite what you may argue about profit being the only thing a company is worried about, short-term focus on goodwill turns into long-term profit.
I see parallels between the secondary games market (and justifying it by the fact that games are 'expensive') and some of coworkers who talk about scamming the government out of money on their tax return, and then bitch that the government is always raising taxes here and there because they need the money to give services to the taxpayer.
Mate, as said before, there's nothing stopping the developer sending you a copy of all that stuff if you pay for the 'whole game experience' via DD. Think of it as a set of options, after you play the demo.
- Buy another $5 worth of content. One time purchase, intended to win those over who may want to see more but aren't sure.
- Buy full game. $45
- Buy full game plus bonus content! $55 Manual, hard copy in nice case, little map. Plus you have your DD copy always available.
I see this as a far better situation than what we currently endure, especially considering the near useless nature of publishers nowadays, aside from massive projects that 'need' upfront capital.
Where does it say that everything is going to run like Steam and you must be connected to the internet to play the games. Think outside the box!
And you don't need to be connected to the internet to use steam. They fixed that a long time ago.
The problem is if Valve goes bankrupt and the Steam servers are taken down. Your backed-up Steam repository could possibly be incomplete, requiring some downloads before you can play.
The old C&C games had a proprietary multiplayer system. When Westwood was bought out, it was taken down, and online support for those games was effectively ended. The same could happen with online distribution services, except you could lose the ability to play your games at all.
I don't think that's Steam or Valves choice. It's what publishers want to do. Obviously if you have a game being released that you know is going to be popular in market A, and not in market B you can charge more in market A and lower the price in market B to encourage sales. This isn't something that's new, it's just more obvious with steam.
It works the other way too. Games are super-cheap in Thailand, so you can just buy a copy from there for $20 or so.
Some online Thai stores will even just email you the code for Steam, so you can enter it in without having the box shipped to you (of course, this only works with games that are released both on Steam and in a box).
It's a moot point, someone pointed out you can play your Steam games while not online.
You run basically a similar risk of your discs being stolen/broken/whatever. However, you see game companies rolled over into other companies quite regularly. I'm sure you can agree that Steam would be generating a fair amount of money, and I would see no reason for those who inherit Valve's corpse to not redeploy it.
The world's becoming smaller. Most things on the internet nowadays, when you buy, don't discriminate between countries unless it's because they have legal stuff to deal with. See iTunes, Bittorrent.com. You have to take a bit of a long view, I believe, and see some of this in context.
Reducing publisher considerations and involvement, I believe, will clear a lot of these territorial pricing considerations.
Yes, but the problem is if you format your HDD.
With a boxed game, you just reinstall it. With a Steam game, you just re-download it.
But, if the Steam servers were switched off, you would have to download the Steam client from somewhere, re-install it, find the backup CD you burned, then hope your backup is up-to-date and complete, then import it into Steam and cross your fingers.
It would be a much more complicated and error-prone process.
I still play games from the early 1990s regularly... I was just playing Gobliiins yesterday. I'd like to be able to easily play HL2 in 15 years too.
That, and relying on a outside source to authenticate the game really bothers me.
If they could work out those two snags, I'd be a lot happier with buying games digitally.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
As long as once I download a game from the service I don't have to connect to that service to play it, I think it'd be okay. That's my gripe with Steam (or the way it used to work anyhow). There's no reason for a one-player game that I've paid for to call home every time I want to play it. If I can download my episode of Nifty Game X and play it at my leisure without verifying the purchase every time, that'd be fine with me.
I'd still probably buy the boxed version because I like boxes and manuals and whatnot, but that's neither here nor there.
As Steam has taken the step (as you acknowledged, Jclast) of not needing to re-authenticate each time it starts a game, it would look like the future is rosy in that regard.
How about if you could have all those boxes and manuals, but at a cheaper price? Digital distribution would have the potential to allow that. Think of it as an optional extra when you purchase the game after you've demoed it. Full game might be $39USD all up, extra $9 and you could get a box and manuals posted out to you.
I think the main point I'm trying to get across (and I promise I'll stop reiterating my points, I just realised how late it is and how much I must be regurgitating at this stage) is that digital distribution would only really take away the publisher and retail component of the whole game sale flowchart. Flexibility is key, especially with more money going back to the developer. There are many options, when you step back and look at it, that digital distribution could be used in combination with to assure you folks out there that your tangible, collectible experience would remain.
I mentioned that earlier, and that would be the best of both worlds. I would get my game immediately, and would also have a disc, box, and manual a week or so later. That way, people who don't really mind not having a box and manual wouldn't have to pay for one either.
Problem is, publishers are pretty content charging $49.99USD for a copy of a game in the store, and developers are pretty content charging $49.99USD for a digital copy of the same exact game.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
I agree this is the current situation. However, at the moment you basically have publishers determining price points in the industry, because there is no significant DD-only development happening. I think that most developers have a better understanding of the industry from the viewpoint of a consumer than most publishers.
Following from that, I expect that if you essentially had a direct channel between developer and consumer, you would end up with cheaper goods sold to a higher number of people, which results in a greater profit in the short term (more $$, although less $ per customer) and long term (more customers means more word of mouth, and with digital distribution your product doesn't fall off the shelves in 3 months).
I am hoping that developers are as excited about what the future holds for this kind of supplier/consumer interaction in the video game market space. I see no reason for them not to be, based on my (albeit limited direct) knowledge of the developers in today's video game industry.