I feel for the families of the officers, but let's be honest here. If the police decide to adopt the tactics of an occupying army, they are going to be treated like one.
Look, maybe I misunderstood your intent. This is a highly emotional issue, and I'm a bit of fuck when it comes to that. To me, what you're saying is that the corruption of the cops will inevitability lead to them being murdered, which is their own fault, which seems a super shitty thing to say when we have no idea if the cops involved were even corrupt.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited December 2014
I am extremely worried and concerned about this, especially the Police response being immensely hostile to protestors and the Mayor. It has every element required to turn into a much worse incident at any moment now. All it will need is another cop shooting or perhaps another unarmed black being killed by a much more paranoid and aggressive police force and it could just go full ferguson again (but in NY).
I am extremely worried and concerned about this, especially the Police response being immensely hostile to protestors and the Mayor. It has every element required to turn into a much worse incident at any moment now. All it will need is another cop shooting or perhaps another unarmed black being killed by a much more paranoid and aggressive police force.
Every element is now in place.
It does look like we're headed toward a police riot.
It's a super shitty situation, and I hope it boils over.
How will it though? The NY police department is escalating it as they blame the Mayor and many others are calling for the Mayor to resign, attacks on Al Sharpton, Obama and just about everyone else. If nothing else the underlying racist anger and sentiment has been galvanised and given a pair of martyrs now (though are both officers dead or just shot?). There is a tangible symbol to hang their problems on, where before it was just a pair of unarmed black men killed and given no justice - but now they have a "But you see, these two cops were killed proving how awful these protesters were!".
Some of the rhetoric on display and the officers actions are god damned terrifying to me. They indicate immense anger and that it is spiralling this badly out of control shows me there is no leadership on display anywhere.
El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
The entire US justice system needs to change. Police need to know that if they engage in criminal activity it will be prosecuted. Police need to go back to serving and protecting the communities they are in.
Unfortunately, there is no real national control over this stuff, so in many communities (like Ferguson), the police have been changing in the opposite direction... More as occupiers enforcing order than accountable civilian officers.
All these deaths on both "sides" are stupid and counterproductive, because policing isnt supposed to be about civilians vs cops... Its supposed to be cops who are members of the community...one side only.
As far as how to do this? Sadly most of my ideas assume the opposite of the current political situation right now in the US... Federal oversight over policing to ensure that all districts have the same goals and focus. Increased government funding of stations so we stop all the nonsense where police are funding themselves by grabbing innocent people's stuff. Have police officers be from the community they serve in some sort of racially balanced way. Reform the judicial system to give officers a fair shake, as opposed to just presuming them innocent regardless of facts.
I get that that's all commie nonsense that wouldn't fly in America.... But the alternative that's staring us down is more of that occupying force mentality, the need for more military gear to keep officers safe from the community, and general horribleness.
Maybe someone needs to start talking about this in the political arena... Or reforming the whole poitical system so that this kind of necessary change can actually be feasible.
Both of the officers are dead. They were shot and pronounced dead shortly after being transported. The shooter is also dead, after committing suicide. He also shot his girlfriend earlier in the day, she survived from what I understand (most news reports seem to gloss over that).
It's a super shitty situation, and I hope it boils over.
How will it though? The NY police department is escalating it as they blame the Mayor and many others are calling for the Mayor to resign, attacks on Al Sharpton, Obama and just about everyone else. If nothing else the underlying racist anger and sentiment has been galvanised and given a pair of martyrs now (though are both officers dead or just shot?). There is a tangible symbol to hang their problems on, where before it was just a pair of unarmed black men killed and given no justice - but now they have a "But you see, these two cops were killed proving how awful these protesters were!".
Some of the rhetoric on display and the officers actions are god damned terrifying to me. They indicate immense anger and that it is spiralling this badly out of control shows me there is no leadership on display anywhere.
I can hope people choose reason. I can hope they choose to not kill, or hurt. That they remember they are people who can make a choice, and not automatons compelled by society to react a certain way. I can still hope for these things, even if I do not expect them.
Statements like that show a complete lack of leadership here. How on earth is any police department ever allowed to say something like that?
because they are all above the law
Where does it even come from? Who said that? I can't honestly believe a police department would say something like that and whoever did wasn't immediately suspended or fired. If an officer said that here in Australia, even after the Sydney Siege, there would be a call for their head from the Prime Minister all the way down.
I can hope people choose reason. I can hope they choose to not kill, or hurt. That they remember they are people who can make a choice, and not automatons compelled by society to react a certain way. I can still hope for these things, even if I do not expect them.
Unlikely. People may just be about to be reminded that cops will riot over civilian accountability. Which too many people forget happens.
Reading the *shudder* DailyMail article, it doesn't look like the police have said anything. All of those quotes come from retired detectives or non-police individuals. The only action seems to be they turned their backs on the mayor at a press conference. Hardly a police riot or revolt.
I'm concerned with overreaction in regards to protestors, but I don't think we're going to see a coup or anything. Just some angry rhetoric thrown around and talking heads trying to steer the conversation.
No one lost their minds when the white guy murdered a state trooper and critical injured another trying to start a revolution a few months ago.
Statements like that show a complete lack of leadership here. How on earth is any police department ever allowed to say something like that?
because they are all above the law
Where does it even come from? Who said that? I can't honestly believe a police department would say something like that and whoever did wasn't immediately suspended or fired. If an officer said that here in Australia, even after the Sydney Siege, there would be a call for their head from the Prime Minister all the way down.
it's de facto not de jure. there is not an asterisk next to every law in the books saying "*except cops" but good luck getting one to even go to trial for murder
anyways the above quote is from a statement released by the NYPD officer's union
Reading the *shudder* DailyMail article, it doesn't look like the police have said anything. All of those quotes come from retired detectives or non-police individuals. The only action seems to be they turned their backs on the mayor at a press conference. Hardly a police riot or revolt.
I'm concerned with overreaction in regards to protestors, but I don't think we're going to see a coup or anything. Just some angry rhetoric thrown around and talking heads trying to steer the conversation.
No one lost their minds when the white guy murdered a state trooper and critical injured another trying to start a revolution a few months ago.
"Pat Lynch, president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said in a statement; 'That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in the office of the Mayor.'"
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Statements like that show a complete lack of leadership here. How on earth is any police department ever allowed to say something like that?
because they are all above the law
Where does it even come from? Who said that? I can't honestly believe a police department would say something like that and whoever did wasn't immediately suspended or fired. If an officer said that here in Australia, even after the Sydney Siege, there would be a call for their head from the Prime Minister all the way down.
it's de facto not de jure. there is not an asterisk next to every law in the books saying "*except cops" but good luck getting one to even go to trial for murder
anyways the above quote is from a statement released by the NYPD officer's union
I am in such disbelief that they could issue that kind of statement.
Statements like that show a complete lack of leadership here. How on earth is any police department ever allowed to say something like that?
because they are all above the law
Where does it even come from? Who said that? I can't honestly believe a police department would say something like that and whoever did wasn't immediately suspended or fired. If an officer said that here in Australia, even after the Sydney Siege, there would be a call for their head from the Prime Minister all the way down.
it's de facto not de jure. there is not an asterisk next to every law in the books saying "*except cops" but good luck getting one to even go to trial for murder
anyways the above quote is from a statement released by the NYPD officer's union
I am in such disbelief that they could issue that kind of statement.
How militarised is the NY police?
The most militarized. Former mayor Bloomberg referred to it as "the seventh-largest military in the world."
Reading the *shudder* DailyMail article, it doesn't look like the police have said anything. All of those quotes come from retired detectives or non-police individuals. The only action seems to be they turned their backs on the mayor at a press conference. Hardly a police riot or revolt.
I'm concerned with overreaction in regards to protestors, but I don't think we're going to see a coup or anything. Just some angry rhetoric thrown around and talking heads trying to steer the conversation.
No one lost their minds when the white guy murdered a state trooper and critical injured another trying to start a revolution a few months ago.
"Pat Lynch, president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said in a statement; 'That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in the office of the Mayor.'"
Missed that. However, as a union representative over-the-top rhetoric seems to be his forte.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
NYC was on the way to becoming unlivable. Now it is one of the safest large cities in the world. I know there are questions about how much of until actually due to the police tactics used in NYC, but let's not make the NYPD out to be corrupt monsters. The achievement of policing a city of that size so thoroughly is huge.
We should likewise not ignore their moral failures, however. They must be held accountable to the public. But that does not nor ever will justify what happened to those two officers.
NYC was on the way to becoming unlivable. Now it is one of the safest large cities in the world. I know there are questions about how much of until actually due to the police tactics used in NYC, but let's not make the NYPD out to be corrupt monsters. The achievement of policing a city of that size so thoroughly is huge.
Nope, I'll continue to call them corrupt monsters as long as they do corrupt monstery things like spying on every mosque in the city just in case or stationing riot squads in neighborhoods just to scare the shit out of people or strangling a dude to death and standing around watching him die or boasting that they can shoot down planes now (okay, to be fair this was the mayor saying that his private military, the NYPD, had such a capability) or declaring war on (their citizenry? all citizens? the city?) I'm not sure what they're at war with but they have apparently declared war.
NYC was on the way to becoming unlivable. Now it is one of the safest large cities in the world. I know there are questions about how much of until actually due to the police tactics used in NYC, but let's not make the NYPD out to be corrupt monsters. The achievement of policing a city of that size so thoroughly is huge.
It is. But making them a virtual army is going over board and doesn't do anybody any good. Also, safe for who? Is it as safe for minorities as it is for white people?
Can we point out heinous fuckery without dehumanizing the NYPD?
Do we need to point out good cops exist every time someone bring up corrupt police? It's not like everyone in this thread doesn't know they exist. It's implied. No one has anything against good cops.
edit: Their union isn't doing their rep any good either, since the union is meant to speak for every cop in their jurisdiction.
Not what I meant. Painting them as monsters detracts from what they did, since these are actual people like you and me doing heinous shit, and should be held accountable accordingly.
I'm not defending the NYPD. I'm just saying that these are people being super shitty, not monsters. We need to address that these are people doing atrocities. Othering them serves nothing. They must be reminded that they are people, not superheroes or monsters, and that are accountable to their fellow people.
spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I think everyone knows how much I hate the mayor, but I agree with him on quality of life policing. The police in some cases may need to be disciplined for acting improperly, but that doesn't invalidate the strategy.
Dehumanizing language is a definite avenue of tensions ramping up, which is not something that is ever needed. The cops need to chill the fuck out and stand down.
Can someone point me to what de Blasio said about the police re. the Garner case? I'm so entirely sure that seeing those words will help me understand the police's current response.
Disciplined for killing people? Not, you know, jailed?
There are different degrees. Most officers are good. Among those who are not, the vast majority will never kill anyone. Where a death results and the officer is to blame, I think there should be a trial. I absolutely think there should have been a trial in the Garner situation.
Posts
That's just sleazy.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Every element is now in place.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
It does look like we're headed toward a police riot.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Yeah, that's what I meant. Just chills the fuck out.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
How will it though? The NY police department is escalating it as they blame the Mayor and many others are calling for the Mayor to resign, attacks on Al Sharpton, Obama and just about everyone else. If nothing else the underlying racist anger and sentiment has been galvanised and given a pair of martyrs now (though are both officers dead or just shot?). There is a tangible symbol to hang their problems on, where before it was just a pair of unarmed black men killed and given no justice - but now they have a "But you see, these two cops were killed proving how awful these protesters were!".
Those cops are going to be looking for revenge as well and any dialog that could have been established on giving justice to the two men killed is going to be impossible. It's an incredibly scary looking situation, especially when I read articles like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2882169/Bill-Blasio-charged-murder-Hundreds-attack-New-York-City-Mayor-having-blood-hands-two-police-officers-ambushed-killed.html
Some of the rhetoric on display and the officers actions are god damned terrifying to me. They indicate immense anger and that it is spiralling this badly out of control shows me there is no leadership on display anywhere.
Unfortunately, there is no real national control over this stuff, so in many communities (like Ferguson), the police have been changing in the opposite direction... More as occupiers enforcing order than accountable civilian officers.
All these deaths on both "sides" are stupid and counterproductive, because policing isnt supposed to be about civilians vs cops... Its supposed to be cops who are members of the community...one side only.
As far as how to do this? Sadly most of my ideas assume the opposite of the current political situation right now in the US... Federal oversight over policing to ensure that all districts have the same goals and focus. Increased government funding of stations so we stop all the nonsense where police are funding themselves by grabbing innocent people's stuff. Have police officers be from the community they serve in some sort of racially balanced way. Reform the judicial system to give officers a fair shake, as opposed to just presuming them innocent regardless of facts.
I get that that's all commie nonsense that wouldn't fly in America.... But the alternative that's staring us down is more of that occupying force mentality, the need for more military gear to keep officers safe from the community, and general horribleness.
Maybe someone needs to start talking about this in the political arena... Or reforming the whole poitical system so that this kind of necessary change can actually be feasible.
Unfortunately when that happens everything will revert to the status quo before Ferguson.
literally.
so, if they are a wartime police department then they must be at war with someone
who are they at war with exactly
is it black people
or maybe the civil government
hope nobody gave them tanks or whatever, because i think that makes them an occupying force
because they are all above the law
Yet they hate it when oppressed minorities do anything like this.
Edit: in response to @Aegeri
I can hope people choose reason. I can hope they choose to not kill, or hurt. That they remember they are people who can make a choice, and not automatons compelled by society to react a certain way. I can still hope for these things, even if I do not expect them.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Where does it even come from? Who said that? I can't honestly believe a police department would say something like that and whoever did wasn't immediately suspended or fired. If an officer said that here in Australia, even after the Sydney Siege, there would be a call for their head from the Prime Minister all the way down.
Unlikely. People may just be about to be reminded that cops will riot over civilian accountability. Which too many people forget happens.
I'm concerned with overreaction in regards to protestors, but I don't think we're going to see a coup or anything. Just some angry rhetoric thrown around and talking heads trying to steer the conversation.
No one lost their minds when the white guy murdered a state trooper and critical injured another trying to start a revolution a few months ago.
it's de facto not de jure. there is not an asterisk next to every law in the books saying "*except cops" but good luck getting one to even go to trial for murder
anyways the above quote is from a statement released by the NYPD officer's union
"Pat Lynch, president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said in a statement; 'That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in the office of the Mayor.'"
I am in such disbelief that they could issue that kind of statement.
How militarised is the NY police?
The most militarized. Former mayor Bloomberg referred to it as "the seventh-largest military in the world."
Missed that. However, as a union representative over-the-top rhetoric seems to be his forte.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Nope, I'll continue to call them corrupt monsters as long as they do corrupt monstery things like spying on every mosque in the city just in case or stationing riot squads in neighborhoods just to scare the shit out of people or strangling a dude to death and standing around watching him die or boasting that they can shoot down planes now (okay, to be fair this was the mayor saying that his private military, the NYPD, had such a capability) or declaring war on (their citizenry? all citizens? the city?) I'm not sure what they're at war with but they have apparently declared war.
It is. But making them a virtual army is going over board and doesn't do anybody any good. Also, safe for who? Is it as safe for minorities as it is for white people?
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Do we need to point out good cops exist every time someone bring up corrupt police? It's not like everyone in this thread doesn't know they exist. It's implied. No one has anything against good cops.
edit: Their union isn't doing their rep any good either, since the union is meant to speak for every cop in their jurisdiction.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
welp, that leaves about 0 cops
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
I'm hoping he means legal discipline like prison.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
There are different degrees. Most officers are good. Among those who are not, the vast majority will never kill anyone. Where a death results and the officer is to blame, I think there should be a trial. I absolutely think there should have been a trial in the Garner situation.