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Fixing the Leaky Tub

ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
edited May 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
So in the spirit of the generational threads, in which it is generally agreed we are being fucked by the boomers and hey fuck those guys, what needs to be done to repair and strengthen the country/world? Let's say we don't want to repeat the selfishness of the boomers, we need to clean up the mess they've presided over. What do we need to do to build a solid foundation for our society for the next hundred years?

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Shinto on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2007
    First step, find a way to fundamentally alter the human condition in order to create a people who don't act according to selfish desires.

    Get back to me when you've done that, and we can go over step two.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    First step, find a way to fundamentally alter the human condition in order to create a people who don't act according to selfish desires.

    Get back to me when you've done that, and we can go over step two.

    Always with you what cannot be done.

    yoda_biography.jpg

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2007
    Realist, blah blah blah.

    I think that rather than come up with a solution that requires people to stop being selfish, we should instead work on a solution that harvests selfishness and uses it to our advantage.

    What are the biggest problems with the Boomers? There are hordes of them, and they will place a huge burden on Social Security. They are smarmy and self-obsessed and short-sighted. They ignore problems that won't manifest until they're all too senile to give a shit. They play their stupid hippie music all the time.

    If we wish to eliminate these issues, we should try to create a system in which its in our own best interests to do so, rather than one in which we just have to hope that not only are we feeling particular altruistic, but that our progeny are, as well.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Realist, blah blah blah.

    I think that rather than come up with a solution that requires people to stop being selfish, we should instead work on a solution that harvests selfishness and uses it to our advantage.

    What are the biggest problems with the Boomers? There are hordes of them, and they will place a huge burden on Social Security. They are smarmy and self-obsessed and short-sighted. They ignore problems that won't manifest until they're all too senile to give a shit. They play their stupid hippie music all the time.

    If we wish to eliminate these issues, we should try to create a system in which its in our own best interests to do so, rather than one in which we just have to hope that not only are we feeling particular altruistic, but that our progeny are, as well.

    We need to want what benefits us in the long run and not want what does not benefit us in the long run.

  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    You kind of latched onto the selfishness thing.

    I didn't mean that we needed to fix things by making people unselfish, I meant that trying to build a foundation that will outlast us would be the unselfish thing.

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    You kind of latched onto the selfishness thing.

    I didn't mean that we needed to fix things by making people unselfish, I meant that trying to build a foundation that will outlast us would be the unselfish thing.

    But part of that foundation is not being selfish.

    I think we need to fundamentally change the way we think about the world and not produce useless things that damage the environment and society.

    There is a fundamental disharmony between humanity and the environment. And until we fix that I don't know what else could possibly help.

  • PartialartistPartialartist Registered User
    edited May 2007
    1. Land Value tax.
    2. 10% Fairtax that gets put into an evenly split account for all citizens.
    3. Let all government entitlement programs sunset and give people the opportunity to fund initiatives voluntarily.
    4. Get out of Iraq.
    5. Broker peace between Israel and Palestine.
    6. End all sanctions.
    7. Legalize and regulate all drugs.
    8. Drastically reduce the size of government.
    9. Move to a Montessori-style school system, focusing on early education and movement to vocational fields.
    10. Reduce copyrights to 15-25 years.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PSN : TheIdiomatic
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    You kind of latched onto the selfishness thing.

    I didn't mean that we needed to fix things by making people unselfish, I meant that trying to build a foundation that will outlast us would be the unselfish thing.

    But part of that foundation is not being selfish.

    I think we need to fundamentally change the way we think about the world and not produce useless things that damage the environment and society.

    There is a fundamental disharmony between humanity and the environment. And until we fix that I don't know what else could possibly help.
    You realize you haven't actually said anything right? In fact, you realize that that last sentence is actually complete gibberish subscribing to the retarded "environment wast harmonious" thinking which can be proven wrong in oh so many ways.

    Examples would be illustrative, if only so I could call you an idiot in a more precise manner.

  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    What is a land value tax?

    Because I come from New Hampshire, and the only broad based tax we have is the property tax.

    And let me tell you - that tax is horrible.

  • PartialartistPartialartist Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    What is a land value tax?

    Because I come from New Hampshire, and the only broad based tax we have is the property tax.

    And let me tell you - that tax is horrible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PSN : TheIdiomatic
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The first step, I'd think, would to teach people to value their children.

    Children have always been, for many many people, possessions or trophies or tools or pets, and often outright slaves. I have never heard someone proclaiming reproductive rights as the right to make new, happy, successful people. It's always been more along the lines of a property right.

    Once you have found a way to make people value their children, you extend that to grand children, and more and more distant genetic relatives, until you've encompassed the whole species, and maybe even some -other- species.

    Then, you have to convince people that the future exists. Many people do not believe this world will last very much longer.

    Then, you have to convince people that this existing future is THEIR responsibility.

    I doubt humanity will ever get to step 1.

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  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    What is a land value tax?

    Because I come from New Hampshire, and the only broad based tax we have is the property tax.

    And let me tell you - that tax is horrible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

    It's cool how taxes designed solely to avoid dead weight loss can be so silly.

  • PartialartistPartialartist Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Well, whatever the tax you want to use, I stand by the rest of it.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PSN : TheIdiomatic
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    The first step, I'd think, would to teach people to value their children.

    Children have always been, for many many people, possessions or trophies or tools or pets, and often outright slaves. I have never heard someone proclaiming reproductive rights as the right to make new, happy, successful people. It's always been more along the lines of a property right.

    Once you have found a way to make people value their children, you extend that to grand children, and more and more distant genetic relatives, until you've encompassed the whole species, and maybe even some -other- species.

    Then, you have to convince people that the future exists. Many people do not believe this world will last very much longer.

    Then, you have to convince people that this existing future is THEIR responsibility.

    I doubt humanity will ever get to step 1.

    So your solution is retarded then?

  • PartialartistPartialartist Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Nuke it all and let everyone who survives have it. Hopefully they'll learn from our mistakes.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PSN : TheIdiomatic
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    So your solution is retarded then?

    Generally anything that expects human beings to act "humanely" is retarded.

    That said, there is one universal method: Make it worth money.

    That's why environmentalism is suddenly such a comfortable thing.

    People figured out you can make a fucking fortune on green tech.

    So you have to figure out how old assholes can make money off of not acting on their being assholes.

    Perhaps some sort of generational investment tax cut?

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    You kind of latched onto the selfishness thing.

    I didn't mean that we needed to fix things by making people unselfish, I meant that trying to build a foundation that will outlast us would be the unselfish thing.

    But part of that foundation is not being selfish.

    I think we need to fundamentally change the way we think about the world and not produce useless things that damage the environment and society.

    There is a fundamental disharmony between humanity and the environment. And until we fix that I don't know what else could possibly help.
    You realize you haven't actually said anything right? In fact, you realize that that last sentence is actually complete gibberish subscribing to the retarded "environment wast harmonious" thinking which can be proven wrong in oh so many ways.

    Examples would be illustrative, if only so I could call you an idiot in a more precise manner.

    Human beings are not concerned with the welfare of the planet. They are concerned with the welfare of their selves. Look around you. You live in a building, utilize transportation, consume food. All of these things detract from nature and the environment.

    Would not the world be better off without humanity? Are laptops and Internet forums and cars and roads and houses and agriculture beneficial to the environment? Think of the resources consumed by humanity. What is your computer made out of? Plastic and metal. From where did these materials come? Your computer runs on electricity, generated by the burning of some other resource. What of the waste created by that burning? What of the waste created by your computer when it one day breaks down and stops working?

    A squirrel lives in a tree, eats nuts, produces waste. But it does all of these things in a manner which is not destructive to the environment.

    I don't see what is so wrong with that view.

    Edit: How is it wrong to take a view which is demonstrably correct? Human beings cut down a forest to grow trees, they drill into the earth to suck our resources. And, sure, some animals do that in some cases. But look out your window. Which is more intrusive into nature, the ant hill or that city full of people? Humanity is in a constant state of shooting itself in the foot with regard to the maintenance of this planet.

  • HarrierHarrier Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Most immediately, I'm in favor of slashing social security benefits for the baby boomer generation as a way of keeping that system afloat for a while. Their generation had the chance to fix it. They didn't. So they don't get it anymore.

    More broadly and more long-term, I think we need to pour money back into theoretical scientific research and long term technological development. It doesn't seem immediately practical, but it's the stuff that fueled our economic growth from the 1950's nearly to the present day. Additionally, a favorable climate for scientific research will draw immigrants to the United States- just as it did in the middle of the last century. We can be a magnet for the best and the brightest in the world, and the effect will ripple outward into the various nooks and crannies of society.

    I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm not politically savvy, but I would say Universal Health Care, Massive Education reforms, and move away from the prison industrial complex.

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  • PartialartistPartialartist Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Get off of oil.

    Edit:

    And on the drug part, only allow domestic. If other countries (who make a fortune off of our addictions) want to trade with us, they have to demonstrate that the money isn't going to organizations that promote terrorism and human rights violations.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PSN : TheIdiomatic
  • DynagripDynagrip destroy everything you touch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    I'm not politically savvy, but I would say Universal Health Care, Massive Education reforms, and move away from the prison industrial complex.
    Texas imports a lot of prisoners. Apparently there's good money in it. Sorry, minorities! Hope you like growing up in single parent households.

    gusinrepose.png
  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Also, get rid of NAFTA

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  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    I'm not politically savvy, but I would say Universal Health Care, Massive Education reforms, and move away from the prison industrial complex.

    YES.

    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    11tu0w1.jpg
  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else.

  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Um.

    Wait, is that a shot at me?

    I can't tell if you're serious or not.

    Either way:

    D:

    11tu0w1.jpg
  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else.

    That's a pretty potent statement, _J_. Why derail a perfectly good thread?

    edit* Especially when everything I said is associated with Catholic social justice theory...

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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else.

    That's a pretty potent statement, _J_. Why derail a perfectly good thread?

    I think he's right (never thought I'd say that... weird). I mean, what good is trying to change something if a large portion of the population is just waiting for fire to rain from the heaven's anyway, or believes the earth and everything on it was put here by god as our own personal plaything.

    I'm not trying to derail, I just think he makes a good point.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Grrrr you guys are talking about abolishing free thought.

    11tu0w1.jpg
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    Grrrr you guys are talking about abolishing free thought.

    Wow... I have actually never heard that as a means of defending organized religion. Ever.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else.

    That's a pretty potent statement, _J_. Why derail a perfectly good thread?

    I think he's right (never thought I'd say that... weird). I mean, what good is trying to change something if a large portion of the population is just waiting for fire to rain from the heaven's anyway, or believes the earth and everything on it was put here by god as our own personal plaything.

    I'm not trying to derail, I just think he makes a good point.

    Get rid of very dangerous fundamentalist sects, or religion in general?

    I'd agree with the former, and education reforms would help eradicate large ammounts of it. The latter though? No way in hell.

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  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else.

    That's a pretty potent statement, _J_. Why derail a perfectly good thread?

    I think he's right (never thought I'd say that... weird). I mean, what good is trying to change something if a large portion of the population is just waiting for fire to rain from the heaven's anyway, or believes the earth and everything on it was put here by god as our own personal plaything.

    I'm not trying to derail, I just think he makes a good point.

    I didn't mean to derail. But if we're trying to figure out what the core problem is it's worth mentioning...the core problem.

    And it isn't necessarily "religion". It's any fixation on something other than reality and what is.

    LIke you said. If people are waiting for Jesus to come back in a Hummer and drive them up to that big ol' Country Club in the sky anything else we try to do won't matter.

  • _J__J_ Festive Pedant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    Grrrr you guys are talking about abolishing free thought.

    If by "free thought" you mean a person's ability to pour valvoline all over their lawn, light it on fire, throw their children into it, and yell, "JESUS LOVES ME!"

    Then, yes.

    But I don't think most people would see that as free thought.

  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User
    edited May 2007
    I don't understand what you're proposing, how can you even enforce something like that?

    Seperation between "church and state" is one thing, but this sounds pretty bad.

    Also, the wording "any fixation other than reality" is way too vague, every WoW player in the world would be killed then?

    What? This is madness!

    You said we need to "And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else."

    That certainly applies to much more than crazy christian fundamentilists.

    11tu0w1.jpg
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Podly wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shoggoth wrote: »
    To answer the OP, educate the populous.

    And get rid of religion and any world view that changes one's focus from reality to something else.

    That's a pretty potent statement, _J_. Why derail a perfectly good thread?

    I think he's right (never thought I'd say that... weird). I mean, what good is trying to change something if a large portion of the population is just waiting for fire to rain from the heaven's anyway, or believes the earth and everything on it was put here by god as our own personal plaything.

    I'm not trying to derail, I just think he makes a good point.

    Get rid of very dangerous fundamentalist sects, or religion in general?

    I'd agree with the former, and education reforms would help eradicate large ammounts of it. The latter though? No way in hell.

    I'm willing to compromise. :)

    I think religion can have a lot of social value. I think fundamentalism and extremism warp that concept and turn it into something vile. So, I'm willing to go with some religion (like we could get rid of it anyway), especially if it could take up some of the social services slack from government without trying to convert everyone to something.

    And it can in no way influence policy or government.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • PartialartistPartialartist Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Bitch slap the telecoms

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]PSN : TheIdiomatic
  • allen1234allen1234 Registered User
    edited May 2007
    I'm not that old, 26, so my selfish desires are pretty close to what's best for society for the next 100 years too.

    I'd like to see Social Security phased out. The elders who were lied to and are relying on it being their will have to have it. It's either that or just naked welfare for old people. But for the Gen X and Y kids, nothing. Use 401k's and your damn sense. Investing as much in treasury bills as you'd pay in SS taxes results in nearly twice the income projected by SS (not counting the massive cuts projected when SS runs out of surplus in 2050 or so). I think broadly diversified stocks are a good choice, it's possible to create a portfolio that gets far greater returns than it costs in risk with just AAA level corporate bonds. But even if that's too risky for you, T Bills are still there, and if they go under, so would SS and we all have bigger things to worry about anyway.

    The reason Toyota and such firms are as profitable as they are is largely because they have used 401k's to fund their employees retirements instead of their own pension systems. This lowers the cost to them, while also creating greater wealther for the worker and potentially incredible wealth for descendants. In much the same way the United States could shift away from pensioning the old folks through Social Security and move to a system where wealth is created by people investing for their future.

    Other than that I'd like to see things like smaller government and freer economies, it's a pain to set up a small business in many cities and self employment taxes punish those who do the best work in our society.

    According to UN numbers we're a more forrested nation today than 100 years ago so we're on the right track there. Our pollution is way down from the 60's and 70's. Rivers are being cleaned up. Market mechanisms are largely taking care of things like investment in geothermal and solar energy. (I know 2 people planning on buying solar systems when they reach a price point making them economical to install, and accept that it'd be stupid for the government to use tax dollars taken from everyone to underwrite the installation of cells.)

    My gf and I are currently sketching our dream home and one of my main demands is that it has to have a pond near it for max effeciency in a geothermal heat pump and I'm weighing the possible systems for electric generation. My motives are purely economic not environmental and as such I am 100% against government subsidies for the programs. That would make no sense at all. Considering it was 20 years ago that Margarete Thatcher shut down the ineffecient coal mines of England in order to save the country 8 billion annually, I can't see myself ever supporting such a stupid system of redistribution in the US.

    PS, as a side note. I often see new housing starts that have ponds and lakes in them. I've wondered why no one ever uses them as a geothermal heat sink to save on energy costs. I know I'd think of that as a major plus when purchasing a McMansion.

  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    No, Toyota is successful because they own their employees., but that's a whole 'nother matter.

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  • allen1234allen1234 Registered User
    edited May 2007
    You must be talking about in Japan. In the US it's because of A: their at optimum output and B: they don't have pension costs. They pay for healthcare for their employees and offer other benefits similar, though not as generous, as UAW plants.

    If Ford were running at optimum we'd still be seeing nice profits, but Ford plants capable of running 22 hours a day are running at about 11.5 to 12 hours a day. Toyota is not in that condition however because they have limited US capacity that is taken up 100% by auto's selling well here. When the worm turns and Toyota is left with cars selling below their full capacity they'll be in similar shape in terms of variable costs. However they get to avoid the set costs of pensions that are a huge drag on GM and Ford currently because they put their employees in 401k's instead.

  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Lemme see.

    1. Universal health care.
    2. Death to farm subsidies.
    3. Closing of common tax loopholes used by corporations and the extremely wealthy, as well as a drastically simplified tax code.
    4. Drastic cut backs on the Executive branches power and a de-politicizing of the justice department (i.e. back to the way things were before the neo cons got ahold of it, though it's probably just wishful thinking that the justice department wasn't political before now).
    5. Greater research into alternative fuel sources with an accompanied large expansion of public transportation when a reasonable replacement coms along.
    6. Legallization (and accompanied heavy taxation) of most drugs. If it's less harmful than tobacco or alcohol, then there is no fucking reason it shouldn't be legal. Leave it illegal to do dumb shit like drive while under the influence of shrooms or weed or whatever. Basically, apply the standard of cigarettes across the board (also, drinking age down to 18).
    7. A switch to nuclear power just about everywhere that still uses fossil fuels as it's main power source.
    8. More funding to education, most notably to teacher's salaries. In my area teachers make maybe 40k a year. They should be making 60k starting, earning more with good performance. Less emphasis on rote memorization, college preparation and standardized tests while placing more emphasis on critical thinking and placing students in environments they feel are best for them (be that something more academic for the college bound or vocational for the people who'd rather be working with their hands). Also, more funding for the arts, seriously. Also, less of it, meaning for fuck's sake summer vacation should be all summer.
    9. A general return to military isolationism. We shouldn't intervene every time a crackpot dictator gets a bug up his ass. Only in extreme cases (like, say, Sudan) should we get involved unless directly asked. We deffinitely need to stop propping up horrible shitfaced governments like Saudi Arabia.
    10. More government transparency. I want to be able to google "representative x's campaign funds" and see exactly where every last cent comes from. I want to know who is in which lobbies pocket.

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