In the Idiot thread someone claimed that the reason I get pissed off at bikers going 10-15 on a 45 mph road is because I'm being delayed. That's not it, as the delay is maybe 2 seconds to switch lanes. What pisses me off is the possibility that one of these days I'm going to end up hitting one of them, and then I'll get to go through all the fun of insurance and traffic/criminal court. Plus I guess I'll feel bad a little for running over a biker.
I'd actually perfer it if they took up the whole lane, but instead they ride in the gutter pretty much, which seems an invitation to try driving in that lane. But you can't; that's still well within mirror-smashing range. So I still gotta move at least a few feet into the other lane, which means waiting til that side's clear. Seems like eventually, that lane will be full, I'll try passing the biker in the lane I'm already in, and it's not going to work.
The really annoying part is that they're not even biking to anywhere, it's all suburban houses, so they're just doing it for excersize. Well, there's a thousand different ways to get excersize, including walking in which case you could move your ass onto those sidewalks, and most of them don't have the side benefit of almost getting yourself killed every time you do it.
I assumed being delayed was your problem, because it seems to be every drivers problem.
So I still gotta move at least a few feet into the other lane, which means waiting til that side's clear. Seems like eventually, that lane will be full, I'll try passing the biker in the lane I'm already in, and it's not going to work.
And look at that! Being delayed really IS your problem. You can't wait until it's clear to pass, so you'll put the cyclist at risk to do it.
Like Pink said, even though we are well within our rights to take the whole lane, most drivers don't know that and take great offence when we do. It's really not worth the hassle to do it unless you absolutely must. Drivers will still try and pass you anyway.
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
How does it work with regards to speed limits though? Are bikers allowed to take up a whole lane but go like 20 under the limit?
depends on the speed limit of the road and local regulations.
Ontario Highway Traffic Act:
HTA 147 - Slow moving traffic - any vehicle moving slower than the normal traffic speed should drive in the right-hand lane, or as close as practicable to the right edge of the road except when preparing to turn left or when passing another vehicle. For cyclists, you must ride far enough out from the curb to maintain a straight line, clear of sewer grates, debris, potholes, and parked car doors. You may occupy any part of a lane when you safety warrants it. Never compromise your safety for the convenience of a motorist behind you.
We allowed on most roads except for highways and other high speed roads.
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
When I see a cyclist, what I typically see is someone who obeys traffic laws only up to the point where it benefits them. After that, all bets are off. For example, if there is a long line of cars at a stop light and a cyclist comes up on this, he won't stop at the end of the line and wait his turn. Instead, he'll drive right up to the front of the line alongside the cars, and then when the light turns green he'll merge over in front of the first or second car in line and start going 5mph. This causes all those cars that he just drove past to have to pass him now, which is a lot more dangerous than if he had just waited at the back of the line like he should have. This sort of thing annoys me - should it?
Well I can't condone merging in front of a car at a light, but the reason cyclists ride to the front is because of safety more then anything. Since we are usually in the far right of the right lane there is a great danger of getting turned into by an unobservant driver turning right at the intersection. If we are at the front we are more visible. I still stay to the right though. Collisions from a car passing you in a straight line are actually quite rare.
I only break traffic laws when it makes me safer to do so. And occasionally a rolling stop at a stop sign with no one around.
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
New York City is pretty interesting in how different each borough is, related to pedestrian/driver/cyclist mentalities. Staten Island, where I live, has the worst drivers. By far. Biggest sense of entitlement you'll ever see. This is what led to my gigantic Grade A idiocy rant at the beginning of said thread and what apparently spawned all this cyclist-hatred stuff. Anyway, cyclists exist in Staten Island, but you rarely see them. They keep to themselves and they never use it to commute. It's like...a park hobby, and unless you go to the park, you just don't see them at all. Bikers (motorcyclists) are really obnoxious too, but automotive drivers are the worst. They don't give a shit about traffic laws, pedestrians, bikers, or even their own passengers it seems. Pedestrians are also really, really obnoxious but...not as bad as NYC itself.
I'm not too familiar with Queens or the Bronx so I cannot comment there but after hanging out in Brooklyn somewhat, I can say that the drivers there are noticeably less self-involved. That is, they don't go out of their way to cut seconds off their commute like on Staten Island. I don't know much about cyclists in Brooklyn.
The opposite model from Staten Island is NYC where cycling is a very widespread method of commuting. As McDermott says in the OP, here they often give off this "I am a pedestrian so respect me like that but I also carry this hunk of metal so GTFO of my way" attitude. Total self-entitlement. Drivers race around too but they hardly ever create unsafe situations. Cyclists ALWAYS do. I walk around guarded and when I see one I almost invariably want to punch them in the face and watch their limp body careen into oncoming traffic. Honestly, I loathe bicyclists in NYC. They are garbage.
I don't know why this is...I think maybe Staten Island is really the only contiguously-suburban borough and so people there aren't as used to traffic as they should be. City-dwellers, like Brooklynites and NY County folk are resigned to traffic and so they just...I dunno, they just seem to resent the fact that they have to wait for anything and they just race around. Pedestrians also have this undeserved sense of entitlement here where they will saunter out into the middle of the street on purpose just to piss drivers off. The end result is a volatile tug of war between drivers and pedestrians. Frankly, I think both camps are possibly just bored and can't find anything better to do. People living in Brooklyn or the City are usually walking around to get someplace and they don't waste time on bullshit games with other people but they also tend to act responsibly.
This is why I was agape during my first trip to LA (for E3 2005) when I saw pedestrians actually stop at red lights EVEN IF NO CARS WERE AROUND. I never experienced anything like this. Drivers, too, seemed unwilling to skirt with other people's lives there.
So, yes, it's regional. You all should read Dave Barry is from Mars AND Venus which is a collection of his articles circa 1995 and one is about drivers in Miami. It's hilarious.
I don't care what you do so long as it's legal. I'm a capable cyclist and driver (no accidents, altercations, or otherwise in my three years driving), but it will drive me crazy if you do something unexpected because you're not supposed to do it -- and really, it's the only way I could ever see myself getting into an accident. Example!
To get onto campus, one takes an off-ramp on a freeway (55MPH, ramp is 20MPH uphill and tight, immediate turn). Like most off-ramps, the lead-up consists of the solid white line denoting the shoulder receding into the curb as you approach, eventually forming the exit lane. We all know what a solid white line means, right?
Driving towards the off-ramp one night, I put my blinker on and was prepared to just move into the exit lane without checking my mirrors because I was following the solid white line and the notion that anyone could be stupid and reckless enough to not only
cross a solid white line, but to drive on the shoulder, on my right,and pass me, on the right, in the shoulder, across a solid white line,
was truly an impossible notion. What the fuck? For real? I saw motion out of the corner of my eye as he overtook me, eased on the brake enough that he could pass me, slam his own brakes, and barely make the turn.
Vancouver can be pretty cool for bikes. Right now I'm looking at a pretty fantastic map that the city has put together of bike routes and bike friendly roads arond the city, and using it to plan my route to work tomorrow. It's pretty extensive.
Vancouver CAN be nice for bikes. It can also be a hellish experience for drivers that have to deal with entitled cyclists. My trip home from work every day involves going up this street that is packed to the gills every day (rush hour) and the street is barely wide enough to accommodate the car lanes.
But, since it's a few minutes quicker, it's always full of cyclists, effectively removing one lane (well, slowing it down, but it causes a huge bottleneck ether way). So fuck off, Johnny Pushpedal!
Meh. If it's a no cycling road then they shouldn't be there, and I share in your pity.
If it's not a non cycle zone then suck it up. You're going to get where you're going quicker than they are, and you'll be dry when you get there. Relax. Conversely, get out on a bike yourself.
edit: ugh. I couldn't have worded that post in a more awkward fashion if I tried. I think they took my grammar teeth on thursday along with the wisdom ones.
The other thing: motorists who 'always indicate'... Except for when there are no other cars on the road. Hey, pedestrians don't count right? So you know, I'll be walking along, and cross a road, while the car making a right turn into this road beeps me and freaks me out by nearly hitting me. I could have stopped if I'd known he was turning, but hey, he doesn't need to indicate to let a pedestrian know what he's doing, right?
I'm one of those oddballs who actually signals even when there are no cars in sight. Partly for this reason, and partly reflex.
But yeah, I hate those fuckers. When some jackass goes to turn right and looks all pissed-off because I'm in his way, I'll generally just stand in front of his car and point at his turn signal. He'll look angry, and not get it for a second. I'll point at it again, then make a motion like I'm turning on a turn signal. He'll flip me off. I'll still stand there, because I'm not moving until he turns on his fucking signal.
Most will just, if possible, drive around me. I've had a few actually turn their signal on. I'd like to think that, underneath their seething anger for me, some of them also feel an undercurrent of stupidity. Maybe they'll even use their signal next time. I do what I can.
yeah, this was all covered in a road rage thread a week ago
and pretty much mostly in the stupid thread
and now you've summed up all the points right herrr
I must have missed that thread. Anyway, in the idiocy thread it was looking like people needed to do this...so I provided.
I actually do care, though. For instance, it's perfectly legal to surrender your right of way to other people who don't actually have the right of way per normal traffic laws and rules, but it is patently unsafe to do so. It's legal but it throws a monkey wrench into what other people expect and essentially disrupts the flow of traffic. People think they are being nice or maybe they are just fearful of asserting their right of way and these people are actually endangering others by recklessly disrupting the expectation of others. This is true toward an observing pedestrian, for instance, who may be trying to cross the road.
Look, if you get to a four way stop sign, the person that gets there first goes first. If multiple people get there at the same time, the person to your right goes first. If all four people get there at the same time, then you have a massive demolition derby in the middle of the intersection for supremacy to see who has right of way.
This is Driving 101, people. There is no good reason to screw with this system. People hardly understand how to drive as it is; don't confuse them further, please.
t Drez-- actually, I entirely agree. When I said "legal," I meant "legal or expected." Like I said, the guy driving in the shoulder irritated me more because it was unexpected than because it was illegal-- the fact it was illegal is admittedly abstract, and means nothing for how the wheels operate.
So yeah, you said it much better than me. :^:
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
I don't care what you do so long as it's legal. I'm a capable cyclist and driver (no accidents, altercations, or otherwise in my three years driving), but it will drive me crazy if you do something unexpected because you're not supposed to do it -- and really, it's the only way I could ever see myself getting into an accident. Example!
To get onto campus, one takes an off-ramp on a freeway (55MPH, ramp is 20MPH uphill and tight, immediate turn). Like most off-ramps, the lead-up consists of the solid white line denoting the shoulder receding into the curb as you approach, eventually forming the exit lane. We all know what a solid white line means, right?
Driving towards the off-ramp one night, I put my blinker on and was prepared to just move into the exit lane without checking my mirrors because I was following the solid white line and the notion that anyone could be stupid and reckless enough to not only
cross a solid white line, but to drive on the shoulder, on my right,and pass me, on the right, in the shoulder, across a solid white line,
was truly an impossible notion. What the fuck? For real? I saw motion out of the corner of my eye as he overtook me, eased on the brake enough that he could pass me, slam his own brakes, and barely make the turn.
What the fuck.
SOLID WHITE LINES, BITCH
FUCKING OBEY THEM
My grandmother and grandfather had a related incident (though not on a highway) that was kind of like this. They were driving home, and where their house is, they have to turn right into their driveway because they're on the right-hand side of the street. Well, since its Canada we drive on the right hand side already, it shouldn't be a problem right? Just slow down, people behind them wait or go around on the left if they're in a hurry, and my grandparents just head into their driveway, right?
Noooo...Some jackass behind them decided to do this: When they slowed down and indicated that they were going to turn right into their driveway, said jackass thought it would be a good idea to pass them on the fucking right-hand side shoulder of the road. My grandparents of course figured noone is ever, ever going to be so stupid so naturally they didn't see him, started turning, and the jackass ended up clipping the front bumper of their car tearing it right off. Thank god my grandfather didn't turn faster or the other driver would have colliding directly with my grandmother who was sittting in the passenger seat.
The turn signal...lever?...is right near a driver's hand, a hand that should already be on the steering wheel. I have no respect for anyone that cannot expend the nanosecond and the miniscule amount of energy to flip their damn turn signal when changing lanes or turning, even if you don't see a single car or cat on the road.
Just because you cannot currently see something does not mean that something isn't actually out there, around a bend you can't glimpse or whatever. I don't care. There's no feasible justification for not signaling a turn or a shift in lane. Not one. Not doing so shows an utter lack of respect for other people be they pedestrians, cyclists, or other drivers. Signal your FUCKING turns.
On that note, also signal correctly. Do not:
a) Signal intersections in advance. You can't "call dibs" on a turn from three miles away.
b) Leave your signal on after a turn. It's your responsibility to be aware of whether or not your car turned your signal off. Make sure it does and if it doesn't, do it manually. There is little more annoying than a car happily speeding down the middle lane of a highway with his turn signal on.
c) Signal BEFORE you turn or change lanes. Don't signal a mile in advance, no, but don't signal the split second you start turning the wheel either. The signal is a SIGNAL. That is, it is a NO-TI-FI-CA-TION to other drivers that you intend to go somewhere other than straight. Notifying them is useless if you simultaneously signal and turn.
d) Do not immediately start speeding up because someone sorta-somewhat in front of you is signaling to change lanes. You deserve to be beaten to death for this.
Also, when you see signs about an impending merge, start merging as you can. Do not continue speeding through the shoulder just so that you can create gridlock at the point where your car no longer fits in the shoulder and you're forced to stop entirely, and stop your entire column of traffic, and force the other column of traffic to stop, because you are retarded.
Merge when the signs tell you to, not when you are physically unable to not do so.
This adds about 35 minutes to my morning commute, and it pisses me off to no end. I leave four car lengths in front of me when passing along the merging column hoping someone will decide to come over, but no. I've had buses drive that little extra bit in the shoulder to cut off one additional person instead of taking the available merge.
I've hit two cars now while biking.
I bike to and from my school everyday, Monday threw Friday.
Both times I've been hit in the same place, there's a part where I'm coming down hill on a sidewalk and there is a stop sign. It's a T intersection and the car is coming north. Every time the cars blow the stop sign and pull over the crosswalk straight up to the road. And guess what? Suddenly a giant car is in my path where it shouldn't be, SMACK!
The turn signal...lever?...is right near a driver's hand, a hand that should already be on the steering wheel. I have no respect for anyone that cannot expend the nanosecond and the miniscule amount of energy to flip their damn turn signal when changing lanes or turning, even if you don't see a single car or cat on the road.
Just because you cannot currently see something does not mean that something isn't actually out there, around a bend you can't glimpse or whatever. I don't care. There's no feasible justification for not signaling a turn or a shift in lane. Not one. Not doing so shows an utter lack of respect for other people be they pedestrians, cyclists, or other drivers. Signal your FUCKING turns.
On that note, also signal correctly. Do not:
a) Signal intersections in advance. You can't "call dibs" on a turn from three miles away.
b) Leave your signal on after a turn. It's your responsibility to be aware of whether or not your car turned your signal off. Make sure it does and if it doesn't, do it manually. There is little more annoying than a car happily speeding down the middle lane of a highway with his turn signal on.
c) Signal BEFORE you turn or change lanes. Don't signal a mile in advance, no, but don't signal the split second you start turning the wheel either. The signal is a SIGNAL. That is, it is a NO-TI-FI-CA-TION to other drivers that you intend to go somewhere other than straight. Notifying them is useless if you simultaneously signal and turn.
d) Do not immediately start speeding up because someone sorta-somewhat in front of you is signaling to change lanes. You deserve to be beaten to death for this.
That is all.
Using a turn signal here to switch lanes is like announcing you will be invading someones personal space in the near future. All it does is make people speed up and get along side you because "fuck if I let THEM in front of ME!". You must be crafty and stealthy like a ninja to switch lanes anywhere near the caldecot tunnel.
1. Blow a stop sign if I can clearly see that nobody is coming.
2. Stop at a red light, then go through if there are cars next to me and nobody is coming. Getting going from a start on a bike with cars right next to you can be pretty dangerous.
3. Take advantage of pockets in heavy (stop and go) traffic. Other cars do this, too, but there's usually not enough room for them. Imagine if you were driving in heavy traffic, and the car to your left is stopped, creating a big gap where you can get ahead in front of him. That's what a cyclist sees when he maneuvers through traffic.
4. I'd rather piss off cars by riding in a highly visible way than be unnoticed. Not being noticed by cars is the most dangerous thing. For example, this is the shit that happens when vehicled drivers don't notice bikes. The guys were legally riding in a bike lane and the payoff is getting run over by a truck.
5. Ride in the middle of a lane of traffic if I can keep up. This ties in with being visible. To credit Captain Cthulu with the (mis)quote, "every time I'm riding on the right, I can feel my life being shortened by 10 minutes." People pull into/out of parking spaces all the fucking time without looking for bicyclists. Sorry, I'd rather be safer and piss off a few drivers (without even doing anything illegal! Tons of drivers hate the fact that roads are shared-use) than be at significant risk of being slammed into by some guy on a cell phone.
I've been riding legally and been literally swerved at by fuckhead drivers. Now I just assume that every driver is going to try his or her best to kill me if it's not obvious that I'm there. I end up riding somewhat aggressively because of this, but it keeps me visible and alive.
This reminds me of the vegetarian thread. There's an undercurrent of "man those fucksticks and their bicycles (vegetables) making me feel guilty, I HATE THEM SO MUCH" underneath getting pissed off about not following the rules of the road.
I ride my bicycle everywhere I can. The primary reason being that I can't possibly afford a car. When I drive my girlfriend's car, however, I never have altercations or problems with bicyclists. Ever. When I ride my bicycle (on the shoulder, in the BIKE LANE) I often in close scrapes where insane fat ladies in minivans try to hit me while merging onto something or other. Or nearly side swipe me. So sometimes I go onto the sidewalk, because I'm scared (especially on multi-use paths, where the road has no bike lane/shoulder). I then get yelled at by crazy old men who tell me it isn't safe, even though I slow to almost a crawl whenever there are pedestrians.
This is in a very bicycle friendly city, as well.
tl;dr bicyclists are probably more scared of you than you are of them, car driving guy.
I'll admit, I get pissed when I see bicyclists blow through stop signs and stop lights, and there are certainly some idiot riders, but for the most part I have a peaceful existence with them. I try to make sure that they know I see them and that I know they see me, hence everything is cool most of the time.
I just wish cities would finally realize the bicycle's value as cheap, effective city transportation and make roads more bike friendly, I would go out and buy a bike tomorrow if there were safe routes in which to commute. But here in in SoCal, the car rules unfortunately.
1. Blow a stop sign if I can clearly see that nobody is coming.
2. Stop at a red light, then go through if there are cars next to me and nobody is coming. Getting going from a start on a bike with cars right next to you can be pretty dangerous.
3. Take advantage of pockets in heavy (stop and go) traffic. Other cars do this, too, but there's usually not enough room for them. Imagine if you were driving in heavy traffic, and the car to your left is stopped, creating a big gap where you can get ahead in front of him. That's what a cyclist sees when he maneuvers through traffic.
4. I'd rather piss off cars by riding in a highly visible way than be unnoticed. Not being noticed by cars is the most dangerous thing. For example, this is the shit that happens when vehicled drivers don't notice bikes. The guys were legally riding in a bike lane and the payoff is getting run over by a truck.
5. Ride in the middle of a lane of traffic if I can keep up. This ties in with being visible. To credit Captain Cthulu with the (mis)quote, "every time I'm riding on the right, I can feel my life being shortened by 10 minutes." People pull into/out of parking spaces all the fucking time without looking for bicyclists. Sorry, I'd rather be safer and piss off a few drivers (without even doing anything illegal! Tons of drivers hate the fact that roads are shared-use) than be at significant risk of being slammed into by some guy on a cell phone.
I've been riding legally and been literally swerved at by fuckhead drivers. Now I just assume that every driver is going to try his or her best to kill me if it's not obvious that I'm there. I end up riding somewhat aggressively because of this, but it keeps me visible and alive.
This is pretty much it. I'm not gonna lie like I don't occasionally pull illegal or otherwise not entirely polite moves on my bicycle, but for the most part it's earnestly done in the name of self-preservation. Really, until you've been on one of those cramped streets, pedaling like a madman to get up to 20 on a 25, still having cars wait in line behind you so they can blow by at 35, and the whole while you're tucking into empty spots, matching speeds to gaps to allow safe passing, and trying to get as far right as possible, it's pretty easy to give up on pleasing every motorist and just becoming more concerned about self-preservation in the end.
It's not about pleasing anyone. That's the entire point. Drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists shouldn't go out there to please anyone and shouldn't be out for blood, either. Traffic laws are pretty well-written in my opinion and weave a tight, consise, and logical relationship between all parties that might be affected by any other party. In short, just follow the damn law. I understand wanting to protect oneself, but this goes out to the automotive drivers too. Maybe a few cyclists need to sacrifice themselves for the greater good; if they start dying because they follow the letter of the law maybe automotive drivers will learn that speeding around them like jackasses is a no-no.
The problem with a lot of drivers is that they cannot seem to wrap their head around the notion that they may not always be allowed to drive at whatever speed pleases them. Same goes for cyclists cycling and pedestrians walking. That there is a speed limit does not automatically entitle someone to drive at said speed limit at the expense of everything else.
Maybe a few cyclists need to sacrifice themselves for the greater good; if they start dying because they follow the letter of the law maybe automotive drivers will learn that speeding around them like jackasses is a no-no.
Check out that link in my previous post. Right after it happened, there was a very popular "well the bicyclist should have been more careful" opinion, despite the fact that as far as anyone could tell, the bicyclist did everything to the letter of the law and a truck ran him over because the driver turned without looking.
For instance, it's perfectly legal to surrender your right of way to other people who don't actually have the right of way per normal traffic laws and rules
Not in California, it's not. Giving up the right of way to somebody else is considered 'directing traffic' and it's generally illegal for a civilian to do that. (Like, you can't wave the other guy through a stop sign if it's your turn to go.) You'll never get pulled over for it, but if your actions result in a collision, you could be found partially at fault.
Not that it really matters for the thread, I just wanted to point that out.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Maybe a few cyclists need to sacrifice themselves for the greater good; if they start dying because they follow the letter of the law maybe automotive drivers will learn that speeding around them like jackasses is a no-no.
Check out that link in my previous post. Right after it happened, there was a very popular "well the bicyclist should have been more careful" opinion, despite the fact that as far as anyone could tell, the bicyclist did everything to the letter of the law and a truck ran him over because the driver turned without looking.
Check out the second comment below the article, which is about a drunk driver who crossed a fog line and struck three cyclists:
"Roads are for cars."
I admit I was being half facetious, half ignorantly hopeful that human beings could portray some semblance of real logic but I suppose that is to be expected. Sigh. I can't read the link from here but I will when I get home.
Poor drivers turning into me are one thing. It happens all the fucking time when I'm on a bike, but I can generally see the danger zones coming up and I go through them a little crouched with a hand on the brakes, but drunk/inattentive drivers just barrelling into the back of me? That scares the shit out of me. No warning, no chance to move, just a split second of wondering why you acn't see the car in your left periphery that you can hear, and then bam. You're dead.
I'm quite worried that I am damaging my prostate by cycling everyday.
Probably not unless your saddle is in some weird position.
Not necessarily the prostate, but I now have chronic epididimitis (sp) due to riding a bicycle in jeans for most of my life. Dudes should avoid riding in anything with a heavy seam down the middle, as the seat can rub the seam up against your parts and cause irritation which can lead to infection. I still take short rides in my jeans, but for any cross-town rides I always go in cotton shorts.
Anyways, back to Road Wars: Bicycles vs The World, already in progress.
You know what I loathe? People who ride their bikes on snow and ice. We get a few idiot newcomers every year who think they have to prove how tough they are by squeezing their special little bike helmets over their ski hats and terrorizing the roadways with their horrible riding. They're out there, weaving around, literally wobbling their handlebars back and forth trying to stay upright with four fucking inches of snow on their tires. There's an entire road full of cars on one side, and a gutter or an irrigation ditch on the other, and they're just pumping along with this manic idea that they can just go straight if they get enough momentum behind them. Not to mention my town's idea of snow removal is to dump a bunch of sand on top of it and hope it melts just enough to re-freeze into a fucking hockey rink overnight.
And you know they're going to dump in front of you the minute they have to do anything thought-intensive, like turn their heads and stare directly into your headlights, and they're going slower than if they just got off the motherfucking bike and walked it home.
I can deal with pretty much everything else, but that just defies logic.
Using a turn signal here to switch lanes is like announcing you will be invading someones personal space in the near future. All it does is make people speed up and get along side you because "fuck if I let THEM in front of ME!". You must be crafty and stealthy like a ninja to switch lanes anywhere near the caldecot tunnel.
Exactly. Driving through downtown Toronto taught me that when you signal, people just speed up to try and keep you from changing lanes.
That's why I said on the last thread, signaling is how you let the guy in the next lane know your already in the middle of cutting him off.
a lot of the bikers in Manhattan are messengers. So keep that in mind, because it definitely is gonna effect their behavior.
I know that and should have mentioned it. That said, they don't deserve special privilege for it being their job. Next time I get almost-clipped by a messenger, I'm going to kick them, walk over to their prone body, grab my something, and say "courier this" with as much anger and irony as I can muster.
The real problem bicyclists have is that American cities aren't designed with them in mind.
I'm a cyclist, and I'd like nothing more than to have my own little lane on the road in which to ride. But that doesn't exist anywhere that I've seen, and I've lived in three of the most bike friendly cities in the country.
Even when a bike lane is drawn onto the road, cars turn through it, and cyclists don't have any way to make a left turn. Cars have to parallel park from inside the bike lane, and roadside doors open right into it. If I ride in the automobile lane to avoid this, drivers get pissed (even if I'm just using their left turn lane for 100 feet.) If I pop onto the sidewalk to avoid a car, pedestrians get pissed.
So, be irritated by cyclists all you want, I suppose. But don't act like the problem would just solve itself if only we'd be more conscientious and follow the rules of the road.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah, a lot of cyclists make me embarrassed to ride a bike.
My two least favourites are:
The guys in full safety gear, helmets and gloves and hell one time I saw pads and yet riding on the sidewalk. Seriously, grow a fucking pair.
and
Those dumb fuck Critical Mass assholes. I'm sorry, but "just cuz" isn't a good reason to create an incredibly dangerous situation for everyone involved (cyclists, drivers and pedestrians alike, pricks) and if you're in one of those groups for political reasons don't even try to argue that you aren't doing waaaay more damage to your cause than good because you so very much are.
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
The only type of cyclists that really piss me off are the ones that ride a bike around at night with no reflectors. I swear that one day I'm going to run into one of those guys because they are all over the place where I live, and I can't see them until I am like 15 feet away.
I don't see how critical mass creates an extremely dangerous situation.
We can talk about the effectiveness of their advocacy, I suppose.
Oh hey a huge group of cyclists spilling across at least one if not multiple lanes of traffic breezing down the street. Yeah, that won't cause a problem if for some reason they should need to all stop suddenly, like a car crossing their paths or a pedestrian crossing the road or whatever else might happen. Ooh, and the yahoos that cycle out of the group and get in front of cars, that's great.
Cyclists moving in large packs are a hazard because of the amount of road they consume, because of the behaviour that is encouraged by the pack mentality, and because of their flash mob nature they don't have police assistance or cooperation meaning they don't have a parade route meaning they face all of the uncertainty of road conditions with none of the ability to react quickly or effectively.
It's fucking retarded.
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IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Yes because, cars cross into the lane they're in aren't at fault at all for hitting someone.
Cyclists use the road more efficientiy than cars, and have as much ability to respond to "uncertain road conditions" as any other means of transportation.
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it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would like to posit that it's not the bicycle that makes the cyclist an asshole, it's the cyclist himself. There are too many cyclists that take bicycle advocacy too far, to the point of recklessly breaking laws. There are also cyclists, like myself, which ride through the crosswalk because it takes less time for both me and the car that's waiting for me. I never dart through it like I would as a pedestrian just stepping out and having right-of-way. That's dangerous and not at all courteous.
The OP likened it to asshole drivers. The same line of reasoning applies here, where it's generally not the car, it's the person.
As far as I can see, you're likening bad experiences to the hobby/method of transportation as a whole.
Yes because, cars cross into the lane they're in aren't at fault at all for hitting someone.
Cyclists use the road more efficientiy than cars, and have as much ability to respond to "uncertain road conditions" as any other means of transportation.
Have you seen a critical mass flash mob riding down the street?
Do you have any idea what it actually looks like?
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IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
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I assumed being delayed was your problem, because it seems to be every drivers problem.
And look at that! Being delayed really IS your problem. You can't wait until it's clear to pass, so you'll put the cyclist at risk to do it.
Like Pink said, even though we are well within our rights to take the whole lane, most drivers don't know that and take great offence when we do. It's really not worth the hassle to do it unless you absolutely must. Drivers will still try and pass you anyway.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Probably not unless your saddle is in some weird position.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
depends on the speed limit of the road and local regulations.
Ontario Highway Traffic Act:
We allowed on most roads except for highways and other high speed roads.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Well I can't condone merging in front of a car at a light, but the reason cyclists ride to the front is because of safety more then anything. Since we are usually in the far right of the right lane there is a great danger of getting turned into by an unobservant driver turning right at the intersection. If we are at the front we are more visible. I still stay to the right though. Collisions from a car passing you in a straight line are actually quite rare.
I only break traffic laws when it makes me safer to do so. And occasionally a rolling stop at a stop sign with no one around.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
I'm not too familiar with Queens or the Bronx so I cannot comment there but after hanging out in Brooklyn somewhat, I can say that the drivers there are noticeably less self-involved. That is, they don't go out of their way to cut seconds off their commute like on Staten Island. I don't know much about cyclists in Brooklyn.
The opposite model from Staten Island is NYC where cycling is a very widespread method of commuting. As McDermott says in the OP, here they often give off this "I am a pedestrian so respect me like that but I also carry this hunk of metal so GTFO of my way" attitude. Total self-entitlement. Drivers race around too but they hardly ever create unsafe situations. Cyclists ALWAYS do. I walk around guarded and when I see one I almost invariably want to punch them in the face and watch their limp body careen into oncoming traffic. Honestly, I loathe bicyclists in NYC. They are garbage.
I don't know why this is...I think maybe Staten Island is really the only contiguously-suburban borough and so people there aren't as used to traffic as they should be. City-dwellers, like Brooklynites and NY County folk are resigned to traffic and so they just...I dunno, they just seem to resent the fact that they have to wait for anything and they just race around. Pedestrians also have this undeserved sense of entitlement here where they will saunter out into the middle of the street on purpose just to piss drivers off. The end result is a volatile tug of war between drivers and pedestrians. Frankly, I think both camps are possibly just bored and can't find anything better to do. People living in Brooklyn or the City are usually walking around to get someplace and they don't waste time on bullshit games with other people but they also tend to act responsibly.
This is why I was agape during my first trip to LA (for E3 2005) when I saw pedestrians actually stop at red lights EVEN IF NO CARS WERE AROUND. I never experienced anything like this. Drivers, too, seemed unwilling to skirt with other people's lives there.
So, yes, it's regional. You all should read Dave Barry is from Mars AND Venus which is a collection of his articles circa 1995 and one is about drivers in Miami. It's hilarious.
To get onto campus, one takes an off-ramp on a freeway (55MPH, ramp is 20MPH uphill and tight, immediate turn). Like most off-ramps, the lead-up consists of the solid white line denoting the shoulder receding into the curb as you approach, eventually forming the exit lane. We all know what a solid white line means, right?
Driving towards the off-ramp one night, I put my blinker on and was prepared to just move into the exit lane without checking my mirrors because I was following the solid white line and the notion that anyone could be stupid and reckless enough to not only
cross a solid white line, but to drive on the shoulder, on my right, and pass me, on the right, in the shoulder, across a solid white line,
was truly an impossible notion. What the fuck? For real? I saw motion out of the corner of my eye as he overtook me, eased on the brake enough that he could pass me, slam his own brakes, and barely make the turn.
What the fuck.
SOLID WHITE LINES, BITCH
FUCKING OBEY THEM
Meh. If it's a no cycling road then they shouldn't be there, and I share in your pity.
If it's not a non cycle zone then suck it up. You're going to get where you're going quicker than they are, and you'll be dry when you get there. Relax. Conversely, get out on a bike yourself.
edit: ugh. I couldn't have worded that post in a more awkward fashion if I tried. I think they took my grammar teeth on thursday along with the wisdom ones.
I'm one of those oddballs who actually signals even when there are no cars in sight. Partly for this reason, and partly reflex.
But yeah, I hate those fuckers. When some jackass goes to turn right and looks all pissed-off because I'm in his way, I'll generally just stand in front of his car and point at his turn signal. He'll look angry, and not get it for a second. I'll point at it again, then make a motion like I'm turning on a turn signal. He'll flip me off. I'll still stand there, because I'm not moving until he turns on his fucking signal.
Most will just, if possible, drive around me. I've had a few actually turn their signal on. I'd like to think that, underneath their seething anger for me, some of them also feel an undercurrent of stupidity. Maybe they'll even use their signal next time. I do what I can.
I must have missed that thread. Anyway, in the idiocy thread it was looking like people needed to do this...so I provided.
I actually do care, though. For instance, it's perfectly legal to surrender your right of way to other people who don't actually have the right of way per normal traffic laws and rules, but it is patently unsafe to do so. It's legal but it throws a monkey wrench into what other people expect and essentially disrupts the flow of traffic. People think they are being nice or maybe they are just fearful of asserting their right of way and these people are actually endangering others by recklessly disrupting the expectation of others. This is true toward an observing pedestrian, for instance, who may be trying to cross the road.
Look, if you get to a four way stop sign, the person that gets there first goes first. If multiple people get there at the same time, the person to your right goes first. If all four people get there at the same time, then you have a massive demolition derby in the middle of the intersection for supremacy to see who has right of way.
This is Driving 101, people. There is no good reason to screw with this system. People hardly understand how to drive as it is; don't confuse them further, please.
So yeah, you said it much better than me. :^:
My grandmother and grandfather had a related incident (though not on a highway) that was kind of like this. They were driving home, and where their house is, they have to turn right into their driveway because they're on the right-hand side of the street. Well, since its Canada we drive on the right hand side already, it shouldn't be a problem right? Just slow down, people behind them wait or go around on the left if they're in a hurry, and my grandparents just head into their driveway, right?
Noooo...Some jackass behind them decided to do this: When they slowed down and indicated that they were going to turn right into their driveway, said jackass thought it would be a good idea to pass them on the fucking right-hand side shoulder of the road. My grandparents of course figured noone is ever, ever going to be so stupid so naturally they didn't see him, started turning, and the jackass ended up clipping the front bumper of their car tearing it right off. Thank god my grandfather didn't turn faster or the other driver would have colliding directly with my grandmother who was sittting in the passenger seat.
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The turn signal...lever?...is right near a driver's hand, a hand that should already be on the steering wheel. I have no respect for anyone that cannot expend the nanosecond and the miniscule amount of energy to flip their damn turn signal when changing lanes or turning, even if you don't see a single car or cat on the road.
Just because you cannot currently see something does not mean that something isn't actually out there, around a bend you can't glimpse or whatever. I don't care. There's no feasible justification for not signaling a turn or a shift in lane. Not one. Not doing so shows an utter lack of respect for other people be they pedestrians, cyclists, or other drivers. Signal your FUCKING turns.
On that note, also signal correctly. Do not:
a) Signal intersections in advance. You can't "call dibs" on a turn from three miles away.
b) Leave your signal on after a turn. It's your responsibility to be aware of whether or not your car turned your signal off. Make sure it does and if it doesn't, do it manually. There is little more annoying than a car happily speeding down the middle lane of a highway with his turn signal on.
c) Signal BEFORE you turn or change lanes. Don't signal a mile in advance, no, but don't signal the split second you start turning the wheel either. The signal is a SIGNAL. That is, it is a NO-TI-FI-CA-TION to other drivers that you intend to go somewhere other than straight. Notifying them is useless if you simultaneously signal and turn.
d) Do not immediately start speeding up because someone sorta-somewhat in front of you is signaling to change lanes. You deserve to be beaten to death for this.
That is all.
Merge when the signs tell you to, not when you are physically unable to not do so.
This adds about 35 minutes to my morning commute, and it pisses me off to no end. I leave four car lengths in front of me when passing along the merging column hoping someone will decide to come over, but no. I've had buses drive that little extra bit in the shoulder to cut off one additional person instead of taking the available merge.
Guh.
I bike to and from my school everyday, Monday threw Friday.
Both times I've been hit in the same place, there's a part where I'm coming down hill on a sidewalk and there is a stop sign. It's a T intersection and the car is coming north. Every time the cars blow the stop sign and pull over the crosswalk straight up to the road. And guess what? Suddenly a giant car is in my path where it shouldn't be, SMACK!
Using a turn signal here to switch lanes is like announcing you will be invading someones personal space in the near future. All it does is make people speed up and get along side you because "fuck if I let THEM in front of ME!". You must be crafty and stealthy like a ninja to switch lanes anywhere near the caldecot tunnel.
1. Blow a stop sign if I can clearly see that nobody is coming.
2. Stop at a red light, then go through if there are cars next to me and nobody is coming. Getting going from a start on a bike with cars right next to you can be pretty dangerous.
3. Take advantage of pockets in heavy (stop and go) traffic. Other cars do this, too, but there's usually not enough room for them. Imagine if you were driving in heavy traffic, and the car to your left is stopped, creating a big gap where you can get ahead in front of him. That's what a cyclist sees when he maneuvers through traffic.
4. I'd rather piss off cars by riding in a highly visible way than be unnoticed. Not being noticed by cars is the most dangerous thing. For example, this is the shit that happens when vehicled drivers don't notice bikes. The guys were legally riding in a bike lane and the payoff is getting run over by a truck.
5. Ride in the middle of a lane of traffic if I can keep up. This ties in with being visible. To credit Captain Cthulu with the (mis)quote, "every time I'm riding on the right, I can feel my life being shortened by 10 minutes." People pull into/out of parking spaces all the fucking time without looking for bicyclists. Sorry, I'd rather be safer and piss off a few drivers (without even doing anything illegal! Tons of drivers hate the fact that roads are shared-use) than be at significant risk of being slammed into by some guy on a cell phone.
I've been riding legally and been literally swerved at by fuckhead drivers. Now I just assume that every driver is going to try his or her best to kill me if it's not obvious that I'm there. I end up riding somewhat aggressively because of this, but it keeps me visible and alive.
I ride my bicycle everywhere I can. The primary reason being that I can't possibly afford a car. When I drive my girlfriend's car, however, I never have altercations or problems with bicyclists. Ever. When I ride my bicycle (on the shoulder, in the BIKE LANE) I often in close scrapes where insane fat ladies in minivans try to hit me while merging onto something or other. Or nearly side swipe me. So sometimes I go onto the sidewalk, because I'm scared (especially on multi-use paths, where the road has no bike lane/shoulder). I then get yelled at by crazy old men who tell me it isn't safe, even though I slow to almost a crawl whenever there are pedestrians.
This is in a very bicycle friendly city, as well.
tl;dr bicyclists are probably more scared of you than you are of them, car driving guy.
I just wish cities would finally realize the bicycle's value as cheap, effective city transportation and make roads more bike friendly, I would go out and buy a bike tomorrow if there were safe routes in which to commute. But here in in SoCal, the car rules unfortunately.
The problem with a lot of drivers is that they cannot seem to wrap their head around the notion that they may not always be allowed to drive at whatever speed pleases them. Same goes for cyclists cycling and pedestrians walking. That there is a speed limit does not automatically entitle someone to drive at said speed limit at the expense of everything else.
Check out that link in my previous post. Right after it happened, there was a very popular "well the bicyclist should have been more careful" opinion, despite the fact that as far as anyone could tell, the bicyclist did everything to the letter of the law and a truck ran him over because the driver turned without looking.
Hell, while looking for that article, I found this:
http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=118454503645056400
Check out the second comment below the article, which is about a drunk driver who crossed a fog line and struck three cyclists:
"Roads are for cars."
Not in California, it's not. Giving up the right of way to somebody else is considered 'directing traffic' and it's generally illegal for a civilian to do that. (Like, you can't wave the other guy through a stop sign if it's your turn to go.) You'll never get pulled over for it, but if your actions result in a collision, you could be found partially at fault.
Not that it really matters for the thread, I just wanted to point that out.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I admit I was being half facetious, half ignorantly hopeful that human beings could portray some semblance of real logic but I suppose that is to be expected. Sigh. I can't read the link from here but I will when I get home.
a lot of the bikers in Manhattan are messengers. So keep that in mind, because it definitely is gonna effect their behavior.
Poor drivers turning into me are one thing. It happens all the fucking time when I'm on a bike, but I can generally see the danger zones coming up and I go through them a little crouched with a hand on the brakes, but drunk/inattentive drivers just barrelling into the back of me? That scares the shit out of me. No warning, no chance to move, just a split second of wondering why you acn't see the car in your left periphery that you can hear, and then bam. You're dead.
Not necessarily the prostate, but I now have chronic epididimitis (sp) due to riding a bicycle in jeans for most of my life. Dudes should avoid riding in anything with a heavy seam down the middle, as the seat can rub the seam up against your parts and cause irritation which can lead to infection. I still take short rides in my jeans, but for any cross-town rides I always go in cotton shorts.
Anyways, back to Road Wars: Bicycles vs The World, already in progress.
And you know they're going to dump in front of you the minute they have to do anything thought-intensive, like turn their heads and stare directly into your headlights, and they're going slower than if they just got off the motherfucking bike and walked it home.
I can deal with pretty much everything else, but that just defies logic.
Exactly. Driving through downtown Toronto taught me that when you signal, people just speed up to try and keep you from changing lanes.
That's why I said on the last thread, signaling is how you let the guy in the next lane know your already in the middle of cutting him off.
I know that and should have mentioned it. That said, they don't deserve special privilege for it being their job. Next time I get almost-clipped by a messenger, I'm going to kick them, walk over to their prone body, grab my something, and say "courier this" with as much anger and irony as I can muster.
I'm a cyclist, and I'd like nothing more than to have my own little lane on the road in which to ride. But that doesn't exist anywhere that I've seen, and I've lived in three of the most bike friendly cities in the country.
Even when a bike lane is drawn onto the road, cars turn through it, and cyclists don't have any way to make a left turn. Cars have to parallel park from inside the bike lane, and roadside doors open right into it. If I ride in the automobile lane to avoid this, drivers get pissed (even if I'm just using their left turn lane for 100 feet.) If I pop onto the sidewalk to avoid a car, pedestrians get pissed.
So, be irritated by cyclists all you want, I suppose. But don't act like the problem would just solve itself if only we'd be more conscientious and follow the rules of the road.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
My two least favourites are:
The guys in full safety gear, helmets and gloves and hell one time I saw pads and yet riding on the sidewalk. Seriously, grow a fucking pair.
and
Those dumb fuck Critical Mass assholes. I'm sorry, but "just cuz" isn't a good reason to create an incredibly dangerous situation for everyone involved (cyclists, drivers and pedestrians alike, pricks) and if you're in one of those groups for political reasons don't even try to argue that you aren't doing waaaay more damage to your cause than good because you so very much are.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
We can talk about the effectiveness of their advocacy, I suppose.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Oh hey a huge group of cyclists spilling across at least one if not multiple lanes of traffic breezing down the street. Yeah, that won't cause a problem if for some reason they should need to all stop suddenly, like a car crossing their paths or a pedestrian crossing the road or whatever else might happen. Ooh, and the yahoos that cycle out of the group and get in front of cars, that's great.
Cyclists moving in large packs are a hazard because of the amount of road they consume, because of the behaviour that is encouraged by the pack mentality, and because of their flash mob nature they don't have police assistance or cooperation meaning they don't have a parade route meaning they face all of the uncertainty of road conditions with none of the ability to react quickly or effectively.
It's fucking retarded.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Cyclists use the road more efficientiy than cars, and have as much ability to respond to "uncertain road conditions" as any other means of transportation.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The OP likened it to asshole drivers. The same line of reasoning applies here, where it's generally not the car, it's the person.
As far as I can see, you're likening bad experiences to the hobby/method of transportation as a whole.
Have you seen a critical mass flash mob riding down the street?
Do you have any idea what it actually looks like?
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH