And again, I could not find a cop right now to save my life. I'd dial 911, not run blindly in hopes that one shows up before people who might beat, kill, and/or deport me to the slightly shittier place I was before.
I suppose there were ghosts and programmed killbots at the house during the 10 months they were left there alone.
They didn't know what there was keeping them there. For all they knew they would have been arrested and put in jail for not having their visas on them when they ran away. For all they knew the police were in the pocket of the rich people they worked for which can very easily be the case in even America and they were told by the people they worked for. Or hey, maybe they'll just decide to kill their family if they try to escape.
And again, I could not find a cop right now to save my life. I'd dial 911, not run blindly in hopes that one shows up before people who might beat, kill, and/or deport me to the slightly shittier place I was before.
I suppose there were ghosts and programmed killbots at the house during the 10 months they were left there alone.
They didn't know what there was keeping them there. For all they knew they would have been arrested and put in jail for not having their visas on them when they ran away. For all they knew the police were in the pocket of the rich people they worked for which can very easily be the case in even America and they were told by the people they worked for. Or hey, maybe they'll just decide to kill their family if they try to escape.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
Sometimes, desperate disadvantaged people don't have the luxury of leasurely research.
And again, I could not find a cop right now to save my life. I'd dial 911, not run blindly in hopes that one shows up before people who might beat, kill, and/or deport me to the slightly shittier place I was before.
I suppose there were ghosts and programmed killbots at the house during the 10 months they were left there alone.
They didn't know what there was keeping them there. For all they knew they would have been arrested and put in jail for not having their visas on them when they ran away. For all they knew the police were in the pocket of the rich people they worked for which can very easily be the case in even America and they were told by the people they worked for. Or hey, maybe they'll just decide to kill their family if they try to escape.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
Ok, so they look into what they're in for in another country- they find that people in America are incredibly rich, and everyone wants to go there. They see this as their big chance, and decide it's worth the risk. Hey, why would these fantastically wealthy people decide to resort to crime?
Trust the police? Are you crazy? No police officer's going to help you against this wealthy person, they'll just accept a bribe, and then you're worse than you started. That's just common sense.
And again, I could not find a cop right now to save my life. I'd dial 911, not run blindly in hopes that one shows up before people who might beat, kill, and/or deport me to the slightly shittier place I was before.
I suppose there were ghosts and programmed killbots at the house during the 10 months they were left there alone.
They didn't know what there was keeping them there. For all they knew they would have been arrested and put in jail for not having their visas on them when they ran away. For all they knew the police were in the pocket of the rich people they worked for which can very easily be the case in even America and they were told by the people they worked for. Or hey, maybe they'll just decide to kill their family if they try to escape.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
You fucking moron. They weren't here on vacation. They weren't sightseeing and trying out American cuisine.
They were taken from the kind of poverty we in America can barely comprehend, and kept as slaves in a rich couples house. You think they were able to go to a fucking Barnes and Noble and pick up a Zagguts guide to being a slave in the U.S.?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
This had nothing to do with what was legal. They could have very well known the Americans were breaking the laws. It doesn't mean they thought they could do anything about it because they were threatening to kill them and their families. I'm pretty sure they knew murder was illegal.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
So, it's the victim's fault for being stupid, basically. Stupid victims.
NexusSix on
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Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
So, it's the victim's fault for being stupid, basically. Stupid victims.
Clearly they should have Wikipedia'd America before deciding to be slaves here.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
And again, I could not find a cop right now to save my life. I'd dial 911, not run blindly in hopes that one shows up before people who might beat, kill, and/or deport me to the slightly shittier place I was before.
I suppose there were ghosts and programmed killbots at the house during the 10 months they were left there alone.
They didn't know what there was keeping them there. For all they knew they would have been arrested and put in jail for not having their visas on them when they ran away. For all they knew the police were in the pocket of the rich people they worked for which can very easily be the case in even America and they were told by the people they worked for. Or hey, maybe they'll just decide to kill their family if they try to escape.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
You fucking moron. They weren't here on vacation. They weren't sightseeing and trying out American cuisine.
They were taken from the kind of poverty we in America can barely comprehend, and kept as slaves in a rich couples house. You think they were able to go to a fucking Barnes and Noble and pick up a Zagguts guide to being a slave in the U.S.?
Again, they weren't starving. As for my point that seems to have gone completely over your head, I think they should've gleaned the information for themselves, before choosing to travel in the care of strangers to an unknown country, like any adult that doesn't live in a cave is capable of doing.
Am i really a moron for thinking that adults have a responsibility to themselves and their families to properly ascertain what they are getting into and not just take a stranger's word for it?
Sam on
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
My excuse is that it's 2 AM and I'm getting flamed from all sides.
Well, since you absolutely deserve it, you should start taking it with better grace and figure out what you keep doing wrong.
The police are your enemy. If they catch you, you'll rot in a shit hole jail while they do whatever they want to you, and then finally send you back to the shit hole we dragged you out of. We have the money, they do what we want them to.
You don't speak the language, all you know is that if you are caught outside, it's only going to be worse for you. How precisely than, do you get out, and who do you turn to for help?
Am i really a moron for thinking that adults have a responsibility to themselves and their families to properly ascertain what they are getting into and not just take a stranger's word for it?
Yes, you are. You are utterly failing to take into consideration the allure of a better life when offered to desperate people in squalid conditions.
And its also clearly impossible to be offered a job on the up and up by a wealthy couple who want people to cook and clean for them instead of doing it themselves.
I mean that clearly never fucking happens. Everyone cooks their own food, no one goes to restaurants or even gets fast food or microwavable dinners. Because regardless of your income, your happy to do everything yourself to be self sustaining, I mean fuck, you even grow your own food supply.
There is also no such thing as "Molly Maids" etc where even regular middle class people pay someone else to clean their homes for them.
So can you stop posting now Sam, now that we have shown you how fucking ignorent you are?
We have proven how it may have been common sense that told them NOT to go to the police. And we have shown how it could be common sense that a rich couple would offer money to other people to clean their house for them. We could even talk about how it would be common sense that this rich couple from Indonesia would seek out other Indonesians to work for them so that they would be more comfortable with people speaking the same language.
Do you have any new arguments for us to disprove? or can you please stop posting bullshit and say "yeah, that is pretty fucked up, I never knew."
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
So, it's the victim's fault for being stupid, basically. Stupid victims.
This is why I brought up that South Africa article. The habit of blaming the victim is widespread.
If you let him get away with it, it's a sign that you did want it, and therefore you shouldn't go around complaining.
This applies to rape and slavery, but even goes as far as issues like the WGA strike... people get mad at the WGA for using the only weapon they have to influence enormously wealthy corporations into not cheating them in profit sharing (please note: not interested in debating WGA here, there's a thread for that. It's just an example of victim blaming). The difference is, the WGA are educated, understand the system, and can defend themselves. The victims of slavery are often chosen specifically for a lack of education or knowledge of the country they'll be "working" in, and also often for having absent family that can be threatened.
Yes, they made a mistake by accepting the offer, but other people have accepted similar offers and had it turn out well.
I think he just meant to say that they should have checked up on what they were getting into. Hard to say how well they could've done this, as there seems to be very little information on their original living conditions. Maybe they couldn't talk to anyone who knew anything about US, or they couldn't find any information otherwise.
There seems to be no information on how the couple got them to come along in the first place.
My excuse is that it's 2 AM and I'm getting flamed from all sides.
Well, since you absolutely deserve it, you should start taking it with better grace and figure out what you keep doing wrong.
The police are your enemy. If they catch you, you'll rot in a shit hole jail while they do whatever they want to you, and then finally send you back to the shit hole we dragged you out of. We have the money, they do what we want them to.
You don't speak the language, all you know is that if you are caught outside, it's only going to be worse for you. How precisely than, do you get out, and who do you turn to for help?
Am i really a moron for thinking that adults have a responsibility to themselves and their families to properly ascertain what they are getting into and not just take a stranger's word for it?
Yes, you are. You are utterly failing to take into consideration the allure of a better life when offered to desperate people in squalid conditions.
I'm not failing to consider that, I'm saying all that glitters is not gold. I'm sure the streets of Indonesia, like anywhere, are rife with all kinds of scams. I'd be wary before wagering my entire life on something that's too good to be true (easy immigration to a country that's clearly not easy to immigrate to)
It's not as if the deal they were offered was too good to be true, either. They were offered a pittance, clearly less money than anyone can legally be paid here, and were willing to take it because of all the other perks of living in America.
In hindsight, it's really easy to say that they shouldn't have trusted these people. But really, if the couple didn't have this sadistic streak, I could see it being a mutually beneficial relationship.
Edit for suprise timely relevance: Do you really think 200 dollars a month, from millionaires, is too good to be true? Because it sucks, it's illegal, and there are thousands of immigrants in the country doing much better than that, working for much less wealthy people.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
So, it's the victim's fault for being stupid, basically. Stupid victims.
This is why I brought up that South Africa article. The habit of blaming the victim is widespread.
If you let him get away with it, it's a sign that you did want it, and therefore you shouldn't go around complaining.
This applies to rape and slavery, but even goes as far as issues like the WGA strike... people get mad at the WGA for using the only weapon they have to influence enormously wealthy corporations into not cheating them in profit sharing (please note: not interested in debating WGA here, there's a thread for that. It's just an example of victim blaming). The difference is, the WGA are educated, understand the system, and can defend themselves. The victims of slavery are often chosen specifically for a lack of education or knowledge of the country they'll be "working" in, and also often for having absent family that can be threatened.
Yes, they made a mistake by accepting the offer, but other people have accepted similar offers and had it turn out well.
That is pretty much how I imagine it's also in this case. One has to wonder that someone would agree to a highly suspect job abroad, where you know no-one, can't speak the language or have guarantees for your safety. However, if you're desperate, uneducated, and so forth, it's understandable.
A better focus for the case would probably be clamping down on the slavers as hard as possible. They are pretty much entirely at fault. Same thing with "the bitch clearly wanted it"-type rapes. Even if the woman was provocative, or something else, the decision to rape was the aggressors, and he should be punished accordingly.
I mean how much research would you do if you were offered a job for a considerable raise more than your making now. Say it was in another state. What would you do? Look up their website to make sure they don't kill puppies or something? Are you going to pull up their tax records and spend weeks researching their accounting practices to make sure they're not a front? See if the CEO is a registered sex offender?
Really most people take new jobs mostly on faith. if we have savings and support networks we can more easily leave if it's not what we expected. This is just an extreme example of how wrong it can really go.
I'm not failing to consider that, I'm saying all that glitters is not gold. I'm sure the streets of Indonesia, like anywhere, are rife with all kinds of scams. I'd be wary before wagering my entire life on something that's too good to be true (easy immigration to a country that's clearly not easy to immigrate to)
How do they know it's not easy to immigrate to? How easy is it to immigrate to New Zealand? England? How about Ecuador? Answer this without access to the internet or an extensive library and without eating for a day.
Can we please establish that these people were not necessarily starving, below the poverty line perhaps, but not in a position where it's literally "go abroad or live on a piece of bread for your whole family for five days"?
As for internet access and libraries, they exist in Indonesia. Poor people may have impaired access, but it's not an impossibility the way it is in African villages. I'm willing to bet there's even a bahasa-indonesia language wikipedia.
I think most people could smell the scam, but despite that they still put themselves in the situation. Because they want it to be what they hope it is. Never underestimate the power of hope, fear and resignation to make even intelligent people put up with shit that you'd think they wouldn't. Hope because people often want to think that things will get better, they want to believe that people are not all jerks, that the job is really what it was advertised as. Fear speaks for itself - fear of torture, murder, death of loved ones, the police etc. Then resignation, the acceptance of one's lot
I mean, other than the abuse, everything worked out close to how they were told it would. Their family back home recieved money for the work they did. (only $100 of the $200 they were promised)
So outside the new employers being truly twisted and sadistic fucks, and even cheapskates too, things would have worked out for them very well.
They would be living in the USA, have a steady job, food and a place to sleep, and be able to send money back home.
How exactly does your common sense prevent you from working for two wealthy people who have no prior criminal history?
We have people who go days without food in America. What do you think living below the poverty line, something 17% of Polynesia does, means? Hell, according to Wiki 49% of the nation lives on 2$ a day. You're making the assumption that the poverty line in the U.S. is the same as in Indonesia.
And you also have no idea how well they could have accessed information services and are just assuming that as well.
And again, I could not find a cop right now to save my life. I'd dial 911, not run blindly in hopes that one shows up before people who might beat, kill, and/or deport me to the slightly shittier place I was before.
I suppose there were ghosts and programmed killbots at the house during the 10 months they were left there alone.
They didn't know what there was keeping them there. For all they knew they would have been arrested and put in jail for not having their visas on them when they ran away. For all they knew the police were in the pocket of the rich people they worked for which can very easily be the case in even America and they were told by the people they worked for. Or hey, maybe they'll just decide to kill their family if they try to escape.
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
How about you stop using the damn phrase for a minute and learn what it means.
Looking back on the thread, I see I seem to have joined a debate on "whether they were stupid bitches"
My position is basically that yes, it's heinous and fucked up, and people a lot less fortunate than you and I make these decisions out of desperation.
But there's still a certain amount of responsibility on their part, for basically neglecting their own welfare, the same way victims of 419 scams do, and the same way anyone would if they chose to walk through certain places alone late at night.
Looking back on the thread, I see I seem to have joined a debate on "whether they were stupid bitches"
My position is basically that yes, it's heinous and fucked up, and people a lot less fortunate than you and I make these decisions out of desperation.
But there's still a certain amount of responsibility on their part, for basically neglecting their own welfare, the same way victims of 419 scams do, and the same way anyone would if they chose to walk through certain places alone late at night.
How about you take the responsibility on educating yourself on the subject a bit before opening your mouth? They do educate themselves, to the best of the ability. Which, considering the resources they have, doesn't do a whole lot. Parasitical individuals then swoop in and take advantage of their lack of knolwedge to exploit them.
And then know-it-all nerds with wikipedia masturbate about how responsible they would've in those dumbasses' situation.
Oh god if anyone says the R-word I will fuck some shit up
ElJeffe on
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But there's still a certain amount of responsibility on their part, for basically neglecting their own welfare
Horseshit. They were doing what they thought would improve their welfare and the welfare of their families. Unless you're suggesting that taking any type of risk is irresponsible because any individual who would do so is neglecting his or her own welfare?
I can't fathom why you want to stick with the same arguments. Two evil people of means willfully enslaved and broke two other human beings who were simply trying to improve their lots in life.
NexusSix on
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...same way anyone would if they chose to walk through certain places alone late at night.
No.
They are not the responsible in the slightest.
I believe that it is in people's best interest to be aware of their surroundings, act with forethought and caution, and maintain a healthy sense of skepticism. "Walking through a bad part of town" is not a crime, nor is it irresponsible, and anyone who attempts to or succeeds in victimizing that person bears the full brunt of the blame, however, there is nothing wrong with taking reasonable preventative / precautionary steps to lower the chances of appearing to be an easy target/victim.
What seems to be the crux of the matter (to me) appears to be a belief that the victims are victims because they did something wrong. They didn't do enough research, they didn't plan far enough ahead, they didn't do something that would've kept them safe. Without intending offense to Sam, I think that he's showing a classic example of this type of 'blaming the victim for being a victim' attitude; he would have done the research, he is a level headed and competant individual, and thus he expects that others would put at least that much thought, care and consideration into such a potentially life changing endeavor.
However, as brought up in the "Rape Law" thread, this attitude is also seen coming from some people (many of them other women) in regards to other women who have been raped. They wouldn't have worn those clothes, or drank so much in a night, or trusted their date with the drinks, so they wouldn't have found themselves drifting in and out of consciousness while their 'friend/date' did unspeakable things to them, etc, etc.
What I think is the most important point (as many others have pointed out) is to share empathy with the situation. "Cruella Deville" appearance or not, I'm sure these women (as with many slaves, sexual or otherwise) are coerced into the job with smiles and promises of a better life. For all we know, these women showed at least some forethought, but in the grand scheme of things it appears that the rewards outweighed the potential risks, and they were wrong.
Saying that they 'could have done more' is easy, but hindsight (from our comfortable homes/offices) is 20/20, and this still ignores the idea repeatedly noted; these people are often hand picked as those who can be broken, who are uneducated or unlikely to be difficult to 'break'.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I'm not exactly sure what these women did wrong, perhaps Sam can explain it to me.
They were offered a job, paying $200 a month, each, in a country where $2 a day is enough to live on.
They were offered free housing and food to accompany the job.
They travelled to the USA LEGALLY complete with passport.
The people offering them the jobs were upstanding and successful Citizens of the USA with no prior criminal record.
Tell me which part of that sets of your alarm bells Sam? if you dont respond to this, I may just resort to personal attacks.
Defence lawyers argued that the women injured themselves in witchcraft rituals, made up the story of being abused and were looking for a way to remain in the US.
I would accept no amount of money to defend these two fucks. I hope it was worth it for their lawyer.
I'm not exactly sure what these women did wrong, perhaps Sam can explain it to me.
They were offered a job, paying $200 a month, each, in a country where $2 a day is enough to live on.
They were offered free housing and food to accompany the job.
They travelled to the USA LEGALLY complete with passport.
The people offering them the jobs were upstanding and successful Citizens of the USA with no prior criminal record.
Tell me which part of that sets of your alarm bells Sam? if you dont respond to this, I may just resort to personal attacks.
Exactly
It's not like they answered an ad in Torture Weekly or something.
Defence lawyers argued that the women injured themselves in witchcraft rituals, made up the story of being abused and were looking for a way to remain in the US.
I would accept no amount of money to defend these two fucks. I hope it was worth it for their lawyer.
Defence lawyers argued that the women injured themselves in witchcraft rituals, made up the story of being abused and were looking for a way to remain in the US.
I would accept no amount of money to defend these two fucks. I hope it was worth it for their lawyer.
I mean, fuck.
That defense sounds kinda... weak.
In the face of the evidence it's laughable and also pretty insulting. But hey, that's what we get paid for. Zealous advocacy and all that.
Defence lawyers argued that the women injured themselves in witchcraft rituals, made up the story of being abused and were looking for a way to remain in the US.
I would accept no amount of money to defend these two fucks. I hope it was worth it for their lawyer.
I mean, fuck.
That defense sounds kinda... weak.
Only because it's complete bullshit. She might as well have said that their maids were kidnapped by fairies and intoxicated with magical fairy drink to make them abuse themselves and that's why they were beaten, scared to death, and agreeing to work for 100 bucks a month.
I'd hang 'em. High, and in a public place. If these fucks get a slap on the wrist (like a fine, or probation, or other such bullshit) it's basically telling people in our country and around the world that if you have enough money you can enslave whoever you want. I don't know what they were thinking, but that's not how we roll in America.
(Yes, it's once how things went a hundred and fifty years ago... but I'd like to think that the vast majority of Americans are so far beyond it now that the very notion is disgusting. And yes, sweatshops could be considered a form of subsistence slavery... but I think when those kinds of things get exposed, most people get genuinely upset. They just don't get exposed frequently enough. Anyways.)
Posts
Which brings us back to why I think people with common sense would look into what they're in for in another country, i.e whether it's legal to chew gum, for women to show their faces in public or if the police is completely useless before blindly grabbing at some stranger's solicitation.
Sometimes, desperate disadvantaged people don't have the luxury of leasurely research.
Ok, so they look into what they're in for in another country- they find that people in America are incredibly rich, and everyone wants to go there. They see this as their big chance, and decide it's worth the risk. Hey, why would these fantastically wealthy people decide to resort to crime?
Trust the police? Are you crazy? No police officer's going to help you against this wealthy person, they'll just accept a bribe, and then you're worse than you started. That's just common sense.
(see what I did there?)
You fucking moron. They weren't here on vacation. They weren't sightseeing and trying out American cuisine.
They were taken from the kind of poverty we in America can barely comprehend, and kept as slaves in a rich couples house. You think they were able to go to a fucking Barnes and Noble and pick up a Zagguts guide to being a slave in the U.S.?
So, it's the victim's fault for being stupid, basically. Stupid victims.
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Clearly they should have Wikipedia'd America before deciding to be slaves here.
Again, they weren't starving. As for my point that seems to have gone completely over your head, I think they should've gleaned the information for themselves, before choosing to travel in the care of strangers to an unknown country, like any adult that doesn't live in a cave is capable of doing.
Am i really a moron for thinking that adults have a responsibility to themselves and their families to properly ascertain what they are getting into and not just take a stranger's word for it?
The police are your enemy. If they catch you, you'll rot in a shit hole jail while they do whatever they want to you, and then finally send you back to the shit hole we dragged you out of. We have the money, they do what we want them to.
You don't speak the language, all you know is that if you are caught outside, it's only going to be worse for you. How precisely than, do you get out, and who do you turn to for help?
Yes, you are. You are utterly failing to take into consideration the allure of a better life when offered to desperate people in squalid conditions.
I mean that clearly never fucking happens. Everyone cooks their own food, no one goes to restaurants or even gets fast food or microwavable dinners. Because regardless of your income, your happy to do everything yourself to be self sustaining, I mean fuck, you even grow your own food supply.
There is also no such thing as "Molly Maids" etc where even regular middle class people pay someone else to clean their homes for them.
So can you stop posting now Sam, now that we have shown you how fucking ignorent you are?
We have proven how it may have been common sense that told them NOT to go to the police. And we have shown how it could be common sense that a rich couple would offer money to other people to clean their house for them. We could even talk about how it would be common sense that this rich couple from Indonesia would seek out other Indonesians to work for them so that they would be more comfortable with people speaking the same language.
Do you have any new arguments for us to disprove? or can you please stop posting bullshit and say "yeah, that is pretty fucked up, I never knew."
MWO: Adamski
This is why I brought up that South Africa article. The habit of blaming the victim is widespread.
This applies to rape and slavery, but even goes as far as issues like the WGA strike... people get mad at the WGA for using the only weapon they have to influence enormously wealthy corporations into not cheating them in profit sharing (please note: not interested in debating WGA here, there's a thread for that. It's just an example of victim blaming). The difference is, the WGA are educated, understand the system, and can defend themselves. The victims of slavery are often chosen specifically for a lack of education or knowledge of the country they'll be "working" in, and also often for having absent family that can be threatened.
Yes, they made a mistake by accepting the offer, but other people have accepted similar offers and had it turn out well.
There seems to be no information on how the couple got them to come along in the first place.
I'm not failing to consider that, I'm saying all that glitters is not gold. I'm sure the streets of Indonesia, like anywhere, are rife with all kinds of scams. I'd be wary before wagering my entire life on something that's too good to be true (easy immigration to a country that's clearly not easy to immigrate to)
In hindsight, it's really easy to say that they shouldn't have trusted these people. But really, if the couple didn't have this sadistic streak, I could see it being a mutually beneficial relationship.
Edit for suprise timely relevance: Do you really think 200 dollars a month, from millionaires, is too good to be true? Because it sucks, it's illegal, and there are thousands of immigrants in the country doing much better than that, working for much less wealthy people.
That is pretty much how I imagine it's also in this case. One has to wonder that someone would agree to a highly suspect job abroad, where you know no-one, can't speak the language or have guarantees for your safety. However, if you're desperate, uneducated, and so forth, it's understandable.
A better focus for the case would probably be clamping down on the slavers as hard as possible. They are pretty much entirely at fault. Same thing with "the bitch clearly wanted it"-type rapes. Even if the woman was provocative, or something else, the decision to rape was the aggressors, and he should be punished accordingly.
Really most people take new jobs mostly on faith. if we have savings and support networks we can more easily leave if it's not what we expected. This is just an extreme example of how wrong it can really go.
As for internet access and libraries, they exist in Indonesia. Poor people may have impaired access, but it's not an impossibility the way it is in African villages. I'm willing to bet there's even a bahasa-indonesia language wikipedia.
So outside the new employers being truly twisted and sadistic fucks, and even cheapskates too, things would have worked out for them very well.
They would be living in the USA, have a steady job, food and a place to sleep, and be able to send money back home.
How exactly does your common sense prevent you from working for two wealthy people who have no prior criminal history?
MWO: Adamski
And you also have no idea how well they could have accessed information services and are just assuming that as well.
How about you stop using the damn phrase for a minute and learn what it means.
My position is basically that yes, it's heinous and fucked up, and people a lot less fortunate than you and I make these decisions out of desperation.
But there's still a certain amount of responsibility on their part, for basically neglecting their own welfare, the same way victims of 419 scams do, and the same way anyone would if they chose to walk through certain places alone late at night.
They are not the responsible in the slightest.
How about you take the responsibility on educating yourself on the subject a bit before opening your mouth? They do educate themselves, to the best of the ability. Which, considering the resources they have, doesn't do a whole lot. Parasitical individuals then swoop in and take advantage of their lack of knolwedge to exploit them.
And then know-it-all nerds with wikipedia masturbate about how responsible they would've in those dumbasses' situation.
Horseshit. They were doing what they thought would improve their welfare and the welfare of their families. Unless you're suggesting that taking any type of risk is irresponsible because any individual who would do so is neglecting his or her own welfare?
I can't fathom why you want to stick with the same arguments. Two evil people of means willfully enslaved and broke two other human beings who were simply trying to improve their lots in life.
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I believe that it is in people's best interest to be aware of their surroundings, act with forethought and caution, and maintain a healthy sense of skepticism. "Walking through a bad part of town" is not a crime, nor is it irresponsible, and anyone who attempts to or succeeds in victimizing that person bears the full brunt of the blame, however, there is nothing wrong with taking reasonable preventative / precautionary steps to lower the chances of appearing to be an easy target/victim.
What seems to be the crux of the matter (to me) appears to be a belief that the victims are victims because they did something wrong. They didn't do enough research, they didn't plan far enough ahead, they didn't do something that would've kept them safe. Without intending offense to Sam, I think that he's showing a classic example of this type of 'blaming the victim for being a victim' attitude; he would have done the research, he is a level headed and competant individual, and thus he expects that others would put at least that much thought, care and consideration into such a potentially life changing endeavor.
However, as brought up in the "Rape Law" thread, this attitude is also seen coming from some people (many of them other women) in regards to other women who have been raped. They wouldn't have worn those clothes, or drank so much in a night, or trusted their date with the drinks, so they wouldn't have found themselves drifting in and out of consciousness while their 'friend/date' did unspeakable things to them, etc, etc.
What I think is the most important point (as many others have pointed out) is to share empathy with the situation. "Cruella Deville" appearance or not, I'm sure these women (as with many slaves, sexual or otherwise) are coerced into the job with smiles and promises of a better life. For all we know, these women showed at least some forethought, but in the grand scheme of things it appears that the rewards outweighed the potential risks, and they were wrong.
Saying that they 'could have done more' is easy, but hindsight (from our comfortable homes/offices) is 20/20, and this still ignores the idea repeatedly noted; these people are often hand picked as those who can be broken, who are uneducated or unlikely to be difficult to 'break'.
Rape? Responsible?
I hope it's not either... I think I just used both.
They were offered a job, paying $200 a month, each, in a country where $2 a day is enough to live on.
They were offered free housing and food to accompany the job.
They travelled to the USA LEGALLY complete with passport.
The people offering them the jobs were upstanding and successful Citizens of the USA with no prior criminal record.
Tell me which part of that sets of your alarm bells Sam? if you dont respond to this, I may just resort to personal attacks.
MWO: Adamski
I would accept no amount of money to defend these two fucks. I hope it was worth it for their lawyer.
I mean, fuck.
Exactly
It's not like they answered an ad in Torture Weekly or something.
That defense sounds kinda... weak.
Worked in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, why not here?
In the face of the evidence it's laughable and also pretty insulting. But hey, that's what we get paid for. Zealous advocacy and all that.
Only because it's complete bullshit. She might as well have said that their maids were kidnapped by fairies and intoxicated with magical fairy drink to make them abuse themselves and that's why they were beaten, scared to death, and agreeing to work for 100 bucks a month.
I'd hang 'em. High, and in a public place. If these fucks get a slap on the wrist (like a fine, or probation, or other such bullshit) it's basically telling people in our country and around the world that if you have enough money you can enslave whoever you want. I don't know what they were thinking, but that's not how we roll in America.
(Yes, it's once how things went a hundred and fifty years ago... but I'd like to think that the vast majority of Americans are so far beyond it now that the very notion is disgusting. And yes, sweatshops could be considered a form of subsistence slavery... but I think when those kinds of things get exposed, most people get genuinely upset. They just don't get exposed frequently enough. Anyways.)