There are so many different people and reasons those people might have for suicide, I think you are trying very hard to generalize based on personal experiences, Drez.
Sometimes people are all alone, poor, and just worse off being alive (In their own reasoning), so they do what seems logical.
It is also possible that some people just want to die. Not to lash out at people who hurt them, but just simply they are tired of living for one reason or another.
It's probably not right to generalize about the reasons most people commit suicide, but I know when I have done it, it's mostly to stop dealing with the what feels like the weight of the world on my shoulders (Then I realize it wouldn't solve anything, and create more problems for the few people I do care about.)
I'm not saying that people don't feel like killing themselves because of depression. However I do believe the act is usually a method of lashing out. You must agree that at least some cases support this claim. I believe that most people kill themselves as a method of communicating with a world (or a group or a person) that they feel unable to communicate their grief/pain/anger/anguish with.
And I believe that most people kill themselves because they feel bad all of the time and they will never feel better. If you're depressed, you must understand what that feels like. Unending unhappiness. You have to do something to stop the pain, or what's the point in living?
Some people find out that it really is just a physical problem with their brain, a problem that can be fixed. Some people don't. I don't consider those people in any way dramatic.
Let's get away from motive for a moment. The fact is, suicide is dramatic. It causes drama. There is no possibility for it not to cause drama. It always has and always will. And there are levels to the drama it causes. You would have to be severely impaired - i.e. medically "retarded" - to not realize that your own death would have severe reprecussions for those around you.
Suicide is a method of communication, or at least that is an ulterior aspect to it. It is not possible to kill oneself without sending a message and that message usually is "I just can't deal with this/it/you/the world anymore." Whlle I might agree that some people do not actually aim to lash out, it IS a method of lashing out whether it is primarily intended to be or not. That's the FUNCTION of suicide. It ends life and affects others around you.
I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I think they are probably exceptions. Look at the various methods of suicide. Hanging? Public and dramatic. Pills? Usually someone finds you, dramatic, sometimes not even a suicide attempt but rather a cry for help. Shooting yourself? Messy and dramatic. Slitting your wrists? Messy and dramatic. Jumping off a building or in front of a train/bus/whatever? Public, messy, and dramatic. And so on.
Sure, people sometimes decide that they don't want to live anymore, or that the world is too tough for them or blah blah blah but usually there's an element of "fuck you" in the gesture of suicide too, and frankly I think it's a very prevalent part of the action.
Personally I'd go the carbon monoxide route (charcoal burning, not car exhaust). It's clean, there's no audience, and I don't think it's terribly dramatic. I suppose death is dramatic in and of itself but that can't be helped. *shrug*
There is no such thing as no audience. Death doesn't work that way. We all witness each other's existences and so we all witness each other's deaths, including the manner in which death occurred. You are correct that killing oneself alone in a garage has a different immediate audience than someone who jumps off a roof or in front of a train, but you are wrong in suggesting that any suicide has no audience. They all do, even if the moment of death isn't witnessed.
Edit: My point is a person wishing to exit life, as it were, isn't always just some kind of an attack on his/her survivors. It may simply be that this person has grown tired with life and would like to move on. Kind of like if you lived in a house impossibly infested with rats... it might hurt your family and friends if you moved away, but your house is infested with fucking rats and there's no end in sight. Moving out of that house would carry no malicious intent towards those who it might hurt, I should think.
It's not ONLY an attack on the survivors but I'm willing to bet that nine times out of ten resentment and a desire to guilt people is one contributing factor to committing the suicide. I haven't meant to suggest that to lash out is the ONLY motive but it is a CONTRIBUTING motive quite often. How often do you see a suicide note that says "it wasn't [his/her/the world's] fault" and how often do you see suicide notes talking about the inability to deal with shit? I'm sorry but leaving a note that people can't respond to where you blame some one or some thing is basically forcing that person into guilt. Or trying to. And the people that don't leave notes? They just add a sense of wonderment to the whole thing. Like it or not I think people have a moral obligation not to commit suicide for this reason alone. I'm not really concerned with all that personal duty Kantian bullshit but the fact that suicide has such a destabilizing effect on everyone around the subject is enough for me.
Are you suggesting that a person should be forced to live through unending suffering just so that another person does not have to deal with a relatively brief period of grief and/or guilt?
Yes, I am. Or come up with a coping mechanism that doesn't involve some final act.
How is that not just as selfish and immoral as suicide? An entire life of suffering vs. a period of grief/guilt. That just doesn't balance out.
I've got all kinds of sympathy for those dealing with mental illness and/or seriously considering suicide, but to actually go through with it is the most selfish act possible. Even if it's not the intent, the effect is essentially to tell everyone who cares about you that you don't give a rat's ass for them.
I also disagree strongly with the idea of "unending suffering".
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
You really can't make lemonade out of a big pile of mental-illness lemons. Being unsatisfied with your life is only part of it. Were I to "re-roll" as it were, that wouldn't change the fact that I have a mental illness. It is going to follow me everywhere for the rest of my life. Sure, there's therapy and various treatments available, but the entirety of it is a very YMMV situation. We just don't know enough about how the brain works. We don't even know the exact mechanics of how and why anti-depressants work (or don't). Successful treatment can take years, and it isn't a permanent solution. Like I said earlier, there is no cure.
The other side of the coin is that, while there are a multitude of experiences to be had in life... for those of us who do not believe in any kind of afterlife, it is probable that when you are dead you won't care nor have any memory of life for, existing only as a corpse, you would lack the ability to have memories, feelings, or any of that other fun stuff that comes along with being a living human being.
Yeah, I certainly do understand where you're coming from. In that instance I would think I'd be more prone to want to become someone's lab monkey, being that in such a manner my existence would have some benefit and there was some slim chance of a cure, rather than throwing it all away. I mean, it's hard to make the value judgment of whether you'd rather have a lobotomy or rather be dead, but, you know, if it's for science...
I also certainly don't believe in any afterlife, but I'm not necessarily suggesting experience is good for the sake of having the memories of it. One may simply live life for the sake of existence. As I sort of see it, when I'm dead, all my options have been exhausted. There may be no point in living, but there's likely no point in dying then either. Granted the vague possibility that there is a point in any of these things, I'd do best to experience them all to find out, and for all our knowledge once you've experienced death you can't go back and experience life again, so I figure it's most logical to experience as much of life as possible first.
Again, though, I admit I'm naive about these sorts of things. I couldn't say I know what it's like to be unhappy.
I'm not saying that people don't feel like killing themselves because of depression. However I do believe the act is usually a method of lashing out. You must agree that at least some cases support this claim. I believe that most people kill themselves as a method of communicating with a world (or a group or a person) that they feel unable to communicate their grief/pain/anger/anguish with.
And I believe that most people kill themselves because they feel bad all of the time and they will never feel better. If you're depressed, you must understand what that feels like. Unending unhappiness. You have to do something to stop the pain, or what's the point in living?
Some people find out that it really is just a physical problem with their brain, a problem that can be fixed. Some people don't. I don't consider those people in any way dramatic.
Let's get away from motive for a moment. The fact is, suicide is dramatic. It causes drama. There is no possibility for it not to cause drama. It always has and always will. And there are levels to the drama it causes. You would have to be severely impaired - i.e. medically "retarded" - to not realize that your own death would have severe reprecussions for those around you.
Suicide is a method of communication, or at least that is an ulterior aspect to it. It is not possible to kill oneself without sending a message and that message usually is "I just can't deal with this/it/you/the world anymore." Whlle I might agree that some people do not actually aim to lash out, it IS a method of lashing out whether it is primarily intended to be or not. That's the FUNCTION of suicide. It ends life and affects others around you.
Why do you want to get away from motive? Your entire point is that the motive of suicide is to send a message, and you just haven't demonstrated that for a majority of cases. Blowing open a bank vault makes a loud noise, but you wouldn't say the crooks blew it open to annoy the neighbors when there's millions of dollars inside.
My expectation is that most people who commit suicide realize that it will cause suffering, but are suffering so much themselves to be beyond the point of caring. Depression affecting judgement and all that.
Yes, I am. Or come up with a coping mechanism that doesn't involve some final act.
How is that not just as selfish and immoral as suicide? An entire life of suffering vs. a period of grief/guilt. That just doesn't balance out.
Well, you have to understand, it's Drez's grief versus someone else's life of suffering. He's not the one suffering so why should he care about it?
That's actually a very good point on both your parts. So please explain to me the following:
a) Why, exactly, is it my responsibility to absorb and then endure the suffering your suicide will cause, but it is not your responsibility to endure your suffering? Why is your suffering more important than the suffering your actions will cause?
b) Why is it morally acceptable for you to transfer your suffering to others?
c) Assuming suicide isn't even in the picture, yes, please explain to me why I am obligated to care about your problems/depression/etc.?
Thanks. Maybe I sound callous but I think you are all assuming some very silly things. I care very much about some people and it burns in me when they are upset but it is not my moral obligation to give a shit. I give a shit because I choose to do so, not because I have to. When you commit suicide you are forcing people to deal with your action, you are forcing people into a reaction. How is this even remotely justifiable? Or are other people just acceptable casualties in your personal, mental war? Hell, I have severe OCD and I half the reason I try to cover it up is so other people aren't creeped out by the rituals. You know how much it BURNS to reject these impulses sometimes? A god damn lot. But it's my disorder, not the disorder of those around me.
I think people, even depressed people, have a lot more willpower than people give them credit for and I think not expecting people to be strong makes excuses for crap like suicide.
As for the other guy: maybe getting mad won't solve anything, but when a guy leaves a note blaming his sister, at least partially, for his desire to end his life...and about something he has no right to even judge her on...then yeah I get a little mad and I think I have every right to be. He was a complete idiot and a complete asshole for that. And that's just one example. Not everyone that kills him or herself is an asshole. I know I'm being pretty harsh here. But to categorically absolve people of the fact that their selfish actions have rippling reprecussions and that these people deserve no blame or ill thought for it is beyond reason.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I'm not saying that people don't feel like killing themselves because of depression. However I do believe the act is usually a method of lashing out. You must agree that at least some cases support this claim. I believe that most people kill themselves as a method of communicating with a world (or a group or a person) that they feel unable to communicate their grief/pain/anger/anguish with.
And I believe that most people kill themselves because they feel bad all of the time and they will never feel better. If you're depressed, you must understand what that feels like. Unending unhappiness. You have to do something to stop the pain, or what's the point in living?
Some people find out that it really is just a physical problem with their brain, a problem that can be fixed. Some people don't. I don't consider those people in any way dramatic.
Let's get away from motive for a moment. The fact is, suicide is dramatic. It causes drama. There is no possibility for it not to cause drama. It always has and always will. And there are levels to the drama it causes. You would have to be severely impaired - i.e. medically "retarded" - to not realize that your own death would have severe reprecussions for those around you.
Suicide is a method of communication, or at least that is an ulterior aspect to it. It is not possible to kill oneself without sending a message and that message usually is "I just can't deal with this/it/you/the world anymore." Whlle I might agree that some people do not actually aim to lash out, it IS a method of lashing out whether it is primarily intended to be or not. That's the FUNCTION of suicide. It ends life and affects others around you.
Why do you want to get away from motive? Your entire point is that the motive of suicide is to send a message, and you just haven't demonstrated that for a majority of cases. Blowing open a bank vault makes a loud noise, but you wouldn't say the crooks blew it open to annoy the neighbors when there's millions of dollars inside.
My expectation is that most people who commit suicide realize that it will cause suffering, but are suffering so much themselves to be beyond the point of caring. Depression affecting judgement and all that.
I said "let's get away from the motive" because frankly it is irrelevant and people are still responsible for the effects of their actions. Even in the example you provided, the bank vault robbers are guilty of breaking and entering but they are also guilty of annoying the neighbors even if that wasn't a motive in their assault.
That said you are right that part of my argument is that many people who commit suicide do to specifically to send a message. I still hold that, but I was presenting the fact that it really doesn't matter because their actions are usually reprehensible anyway.
c) Assuming suicide isn't even in the picture, yes, please explain to me why I am obligated to care about your problems/depression/etc.?
So, basically, you don't care, but yet for some reason you get all upset when the person offs himself? That seems a little strange.
Did you miss where I said "assuming suicide isn't even in the picture"? In (c) I am asking when or why anyone is obligated to care about another person's problems.
I care about many things. Almost everyone does. I care about the people near me. But I'm not obligated to, morally or otherwise.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
c) Assuming suicide isn't even in the picture, yes, please explain to me why I am obligated to care about your problems/depression/etc.?
So, basically, you don't care, but yet for some reason you get all upset when the person offs himself? That seems a little strange.
Did you miss where I said "assuming suicide isn't even in the picture"? In (c) I am asking when or why anyone is obligated to care about another person's problems.
I care about many things. Almost everyone does. I care about the people near me. But I'm not obligated to, morally or otherwise.
A good person cares. They don't need a reason for it. A bad person doesn't care because they're selfish fucks.
Also, just like you're not obligated to care about their problems, you're not obligated to care about them killing themselves, so why is it a problem?
Holy shit Aegeri is from New Zealand? That makes like, four.
There isn't much going by way of depression help for youths in New Zealand, other then those helplines or whatever, but I don't think anyone takes those seriously. You'd need to actually go to the doctor or something to get medication. But with the New Zealand view that guys need to be staunch and express like, no emotion you need an intervention or something to get people to take anti-depressants. It's probably not that good. I blame rugby, damn that sport for making everyone think you need to show no emotion.
Eh, it's not rugby. More to do with how the country was set up, essentially by solitary colonialists who went into the bush alone and tried to make something for themselves. It lead to a messed up national psyche, really. My teacher in year 12 media studies of all things did a damn fine dissection of this topic for us in one lesson.
Also, don't we have the second highest or highest youth suicide rate in the developed world? And the government has specific/retarded criteria for deciding what actually constitutes a suicide which makes the numbers look like they're lower than they are.
And thinking about it, I'm surprised Labour doesn't spend more to set up help facilities or whatever considering what a big bunch of populist commie fucks they are.
c) Assuming suicide isn't even in the picture, yes, please explain to me why I am obligated to care about your problems/depression/etc.?
So, basically, you don't care, but yet for some reason you get all upset when the person offs himself? That seems a little strange.
Did you miss where I said "assuming suicide isn't even in the picture"? In (c) I am asking when or why anyone is obligated to care about another person's problems.
I care about many things. Almost everyone does. I care about the people near me. But I'm not obligated to, morally or otherwise.
A good person cares. They don't need a reason for it. A bad person doesn't care because they're selfish fucks.
Also, just like you're not obligated to care about their problems, you're not obligated to care about them killing themselves, so why is it a problem?
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil. It is when your selfishness leads to harming others. I don't have a problem with the selfishness of suicide, actually. It is an entirely selfish action, but that is not what makes it immoral in my philosophy. What makes it immoral is that it directly damages other people. So, there is nothing bad or immoral about selfishly not caring about another's well-being. That's just silly. Where do you draw the line? Do you shed tears for and open your heart up to every single person you interact with? You'd go mental.
Second, are you really this naive? I really have to wonder about some people in this thread. I'm not obligated to care, no, and you're not necessarily obligated to live on my behalf either, but the nature of suicide devastates people in the proximity. It has an area effect. When you do that you are forcing a reaction and actually are obligating someone to feel something. Unless you're a stone cold person that can completely dissociate yourself from your emotions. When someone does something like this it is violently disruptive to those around him or her. It evokes, forcibly. But only art should forcibly evoke. If someone wants to make a rational case on how suicide is art, I'll entertain it perhaps, but other than that I don't think you have a case.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil.
I believe it is inherently bad. We prosper through society and selfishness does nothing for the society, and in fact often takes away from the society for the benefit of the individual.
When someone does something like this it is violently disruptive to those around him or her. It evokes, forcibly. But only art should forcibly evoke.
So, forcing someone else to feel an emotion is inherently bad?
What if I buy my girlfriend a bunch of roses? What if she is moved by this gesture? Is this bad? Have I crossed some sort of line? Did I do the wrong thing by forcing her to feel in this way? If I tell you a joke and it amuses you, am I the bad guy?
Let's get away from motive for a moment. The fact is, suicide is dramatic. It causes drama. There is no possibility for it not to cause drama. It always has and always will. And there are levels to the drama it causes. You would have to be severely impaired - i.e. medically "retarded" - to not realize that your own death would have severe reprecussions for those around you.
Suicide is a method of communication, or at least that is an ulterior aspect to it. It is not possible to kill oneself without sending a message and that message usually is "I just can't deal with this/it/you/the world anymore." Whlle I might agree that some people do not actually aim to lash out, it IS a method of lashing out whether it is primarily intended to be or not. That's the FUNCTION of suicide. It ends life and affects others around you.
Why do you want to get away from motive? Your entire point is that the motive of suicide is to send a message, and you just haven't demonstrated that for a majority of cases. Blowing open a bank vault makes a loud noise, but you wouldn't say the crooks blew it open to annoy the neighbors when there's millions of dollars inside.
My expectation is that most people who commit suicide realize that it will cause suffering, but are suffering so much themselves to be beyond the point of caring. Depression affecting judgement and all that.
I said "let's get away from the motive" because frankly it is irrelevant and people are still responsible for the effects of their actions. Even in the example you provided, the bank vault robbers are guilty of breaking and entering but they are also guilty of annoying the neighbors even if that wasn't a motive in their assault.
That said you are right that part of my argument is that many people who commit suicide do to specifically to send a message. I still hold that, but I was presenting the fact that it really doesn't matter because their actions are usually reprehensible anyway.
And what I'm saying is that it's annoying the neighbors that's irrelevant. The meaningful thing is the jackpot, the death. I submit that most people kill themselves because they are in pain. Wanting to send a message is, if a factor, entirely an auxiliary one. It doesn't matter how much you want to communicate, you're not going to kill yourself if you want to be alive more than you want to die.
That's also the problem with your idea that suicide is wrong because it hurts people. Suicide is a way to end pain. To be an immoral action, it would obviously have to create more suffering that it ends. But in the mind of the victim, nothing is worse than their pain. That's what depression is. So there's the question: Who are you to say that the suicidal person is not suffering as much? How can you possibly know that?
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil.
I believe it is inherently bad. We prosper through society and selfishness does nothing for the society, and in fact often takes away from the society for the benefit of the individual.
And I don't. Still, are you then supporting my argument that suicide is immoral? Sucide is unarguably selfish, so your position is now foreign to me. Well, I mean you can argue the point, but you would be wrong. Suicide is a selfish action.
What if I buy my girlfriend a bunch of roses? What if she is moved by this gesture? Is this bad? Have I crossed some sort of line? Did I do the wrong thing by forcing her to feel in this way? If I tell you a joke and it amuses you, am I the bad guy?
Yes, it's very bad and you should go kill yourself over it.
Stupid-head. You know I was talking about negative emotions. I would hope. Increasing unhappiness or decreasing happiness is immoral from a utilitarian perspective and many other moral perspectives. While I'm not exactly a utilitarian, I would say "try not to emotionally harm other people as much as possible" is a good rule of thumb to live by.
And what I'm saying is that it's annoying the neighbors that's irrelevant. The meaningful thing is the jackpot, the death. I submit that most people kill themselves because they are in pain. Wanting to send a message is, if a factor, entirely an auxiliary one. It doesn't matter how much you want to communicate, you're not going to kill yourself if you want to be alive more than you want to die.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. Just because something is secondary, tertiary, or auxillary doesn't make it any less meaningful. Motivation is important but it is not the only important thing.
That's also the problem with your idea that suicide is wrong because it hurts people. Suicide is a way to end pain. To be an immoral action, it would obviously have to create more suffering that it ends. But in the mind of the victim, nothing is worse than their pain. That's what depression is. So there's the question: Who are you to say that the suicidal person is not suffering as much? How can you possibly know that?
For it to be immoral "it would obviously have to create more suffering than it ends"? Nonsense. What is this, emotional communism? It's okay to tip the scales until everyone is as happy and sad as everyone else? Misery loves company becomes the golden rule? Do unto others to make them feel exactly the same way you do?
This would justify a bully who elevates his own esteem completely by making someone else suffer just a little bit? It would justify any action that causes suffering in another if it alleviates more suffering. I think a lot of people would have a problem with this moral perspective.
There are eight zillion things wrong with what you've just suggested.
If it makes you feel any better, I feel that suicide is less immoral than, say, selling Monster cables at 2000% markup by lying to customers about the relatively quality to other cables. To offer some perspective.
The other most common response is anger at the individual who killed themselves, often because of the view that someone who kills themselves has done something dishonorable or especially hurtful to those who have been left behind: especially family.
I think that suicide is point at which someone's perceived self-pain/pity has far overwhelmed any rational consideration of what their actions really will do to their family, because they are so far into their own psycosis that a rational consideration is impossible.
Attempted sucide may be a cry for help/pity or something that was rationalized as a cry for help/pity after the person got through whatever "crazy cycle" their brain was on at the time and can't really conceive of why they'd want to kill themselves except for a cry for help.
The other story i think of is a man caught smearing his own crap on the walls of a subway car. When asked why he was doing this he responded by saying that he didnt want to do it, but it disgusted the voices in his head so much they would leave him alone for a while.
What gets me about these kinds of stories is that some folks (not you! I'm just responding to the theme, not you!) seem to think that if this guy just snapped out of it or did "something" to get himself out of the hole, that he'd be magically better... or that this guy is even capable of taking action toward getting himself help. It sounds cliche to say that you can't rationalize irrationality, but to this guy, as crazy as he knows he's acting, it's not like he's really wanting to smear his crap on the walls. He has to do it. At the point in time in which he is doing it, it seems like the most normal thing in the world. It's only after he does it that it dawns on him that "gee, that was pretty fucked up."
That's what people who have never really been through mental illness really don't seem to understand about mental illness. You're supposing that people are reflecting that "this is a bad thing I'm about to do and I'm just going to do it anyway" while they're in the act. It doesn't really work that way. I'm not saying that the people are not responsible for their actions... just that for a point in time that the perception of what is an acceptable action is shifted.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil.
I believe it is inherently bad. We prosper through society and selfishness does nothing for the society, and in fact often takes away from the society for the benefit of the individual.
And I don't. Still, are you then supporting my argument that suicide is immoral? Sucide is unarguably selfish, so your position is now foreign to me. Well, I mean you can argue the point, but you would be wrong. Suicide is a selfish action.
Yes, it is. I've never argued otherwise. However, I do not find suicide to be immoral. Killing others, that's immoral. Killing yourself? Nope, don't see it.
Suicide is bad, no doubt about it. But I'm not willing to lay any kind of blame on the person committing it because the pain they feel must be absolutely unbearable if they'd even concider doing something so extreme as to end their life.
When someone does something like this it is violently disruptive to those around him or her. It evokes, forcibly. But only art should forcibly evoke.
So, forcing someone else to feel an emotion is inherently bad?
No, forcing someone to feel a negative emotion is inherently bad.
You did not specify.
You also removed the context of my comment.
Sorry.
Increasing unhappiness or decreasing happiness is immoral from a utilitarian perspective and many other moral perspectives. While I'm not exactly a utilitarian, I would say "try not to emotionally harm other people as much as possible" is a good rule of thumb to live by.
Yes, it is a good rule to live by. However, when you weight the unhappiness and pain of the person who committed suicide against the unhappiness and pain of those left behind, if one of them outweighs the other, I would say it is the unhappiness and pain of the deceased. As such, we have removed a great deal of unhappiness from the world with the price of some unhappiness for others. I'd venture a guess that in the end, it probably breaks even and as such, cannot be concidered truly immoral even by these utilitarian standards.
That's also the problem with your idea that suicide is wrong because it hurts people. Suicide is a way to end pain. To be an immoral action, it would obviously have to create more suffering that it ends. But in the mind of the victim, nothing is worse than their pain. That's what depression is. So there's the question: Who are you to say that the suicidal person is not suffering as much? How can you possibly know that?
For it to be immoral "it would obviously have to create more suffering than it ends"? Nonsense. What is this, emotional communism? It's okay to tip the scales until everyone is as happy and sad as everyone else? Misery loves company becomes the golden rule? Do unto others to make them feel exactly the same way you do?
This would justify a bully who elevates his own esteem completely by making someone else suffer just a little bit? It would justify any action that causes suffering in another if it alleviates more suffering. I think a lot of people would have a problem with this moral perspective.
There are eight zillion things wrong with what you've just suggested.
Well, I'm a relativist, so while it's technically justified to the actor if it increases his overall happiness, it's really only justified to me if it increases my overall happiness.
Regardless of that, happiness is not zero-sum. Most moral actions, or perhaps I should say the most moral actions, increase happiness uniformly. However, that can't always be done, and where suffering is inevitable, yes— we should act to minimize it. That's not a simple calculus, but it is essential.
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil.
I believe it is inherently bad. We prosper through society and selfishness does nothing for the society, and in fact often takes away from the society for the benefit of the individual.
And I don't. Still, are you then supporting my argument that suicide is immoral? Sucide is unarguably selfish, so your position is now foreign to me. Well, I mean you can argue the point, but you would be wrong. Suicide is a selfish action.
Yes, it is. I've never argued otherwise. However, I do not find suicide to be immoral. Killing others, that's immoral. Killing yourself? Nope, don't see it.
Suicide is bad, no doubt about it. But I'm not willing to lay any kind of blame on the person committing it because the pain they feel must be absolutely unbearable if they'd even concider doing something so extreme as to end their life.
Okay, we're finally getting somewhere. You say: "I believe [selfishness] is inherently bad." But then you say you don't believe it is immoral. What exactly does "bad" mean? I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I don't understand you. It sounded like you were telling me a couple of posts ago that selfish actions are immoral because they have a drain on society. I am telling you that suicide is a selfish action and that it has a negative drain on people around the subject and you even seem to concede this point. So why the double standard? Why is it alright to be selfish when it comes to suicide but not in any other context?
Increasing unhappiness or decreasing happiness is immoral from a utilitarian perspective and many other moral perspectives. While I'm not exactly a utilitarian, I would say "try not to emotionally harm other people as much as possible" is a good rule of thumb to live by.
Yes, it is a good rule to live by. However, when you weight the unhappiness and pain of the person who committed suicide against the unhappiness and pain of those left behind, if one of them outweighs the other, I would say it is the unhappiness and pain of the deceased. As such, we have removed a great deal of unhappiness from the world with the price of some unhappiness for others. I'd venture a guess that in the end, it probably breaks even and as such, cannot be concidered truly immoral even by these utilitarian standards.
I don't agree with this, but it's at a fundamental level and I'm betting your philosophy is at a fundamental level too so there's no point in debating this. I don't think my happiness is a currency anyone else has a right to spend. Period.
That's also the problem with your idea that suicide is wrong because it hurts people. Suicide is a way to end pain. To be an immoral action, it would obviously have to create more suffering that it ends. But in the mind of the victim, nothing is worse than their pain. That's what depression is. So there's the question: Who are you to say that the suicidal person is not suffering as much? How can you possibly know that?
For it to be immoral "it would obviously have to create more suffering than it ends"? Nonsense. What is this, emotional communism? It's okay to tip the scales until everyone is as happy and sad as everyone else? Misery loves company becomes the golden rule? Do unto others to make them feel exactly the same way you do?
This would justify a bully who elevates his own esteem completely by making someone else suffer just a little bit? It would justify any action that causes suffering in another if it alleviates more suffering. I think a lot of people would have a problem with this moral perspective.
There are eight zillion things wrong with what you've just suggested.
Well, I'm a relativist, so while it's technically justified to the actor if it increases his overall happiness, it's really only justified to me if it increases my overall happiness.
Regardless of that, happiness is not zero-sum. Most moral actions, or perhaps I should say the most moral actions, increase happiness uniformly. However, that can't always be done, and where suffering is inevitable, yes— we should act to minimize it. That's not a simple calculus, but it is essential.
Yes, I agree with you on this. However I conclude that the minimization here is for the suicidal party to continue suffering. I think a strong argument could be made to suggest that the total amount of suffering increases rather than decreases when someone commits suicide. Of course it depends on the person and how connected they are to others, but for the most part, while individual suffering may be less than the one borne by the suicidal person, there would be so many people negatively affected that the total Global Happiness Quotient On Earth would decrease. Or something.
Well, I'm a relativist, so while it's technically justified to the actor if it increases his overall happiness, it's really only justified to me if it increases my overall happiness.
Regardless of that, happiness is not zero-sum. Most moral actions, or perhaps I should say the most moral actions, increase happiness uniformly. However, that can't always be done, and where suffering is inevitable, yes— we should act to minimize it. That's not a simple calculus, but it is essential.
Yes, I agree with you on this. However I conclude that the minimization here is for the suicidal party to continue suffering. I think a strong argument could be made to suggest that the total amount of suffering increases rather than decreases when someone commits suicide. Of course it depends on the person and how connected they are to others, but for the most part, while individual suffering may be less than the one borne by the suicidal person, there would be so many people negatively affected that the total Global Happiness Quotient On Earth would decrease. Or something.
Well, I think you're overestimating the amount of joy a suicidally depressed person contributes to the world. But that's sort of tangential to my real point, which is that I agree broadly— but I really can't consider a suicidally depressed person a rational moral actor.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil.
I believe it is inherently bad. We prosper through society and selfishness does nothing for the society, and in fact often takes away from the society for the benefit of the individual.
And I don't. Still, are you then supporting my argument that suicide is immoral? Sucide is unarguably selfish, so your position is now foreign to me. Well, I mean you can argue the point, but you would be wrong. Suicide is a selfish action.
Yes, it is. I've never argued otherwise. However, I do not find suicide to be immoral. Killing others, that's immoral. Killing yourself? Nope, don't see it.
Suicide is bad, no doubt about it. But I'm not willing to lay any kind of blame on the person committing it because the pain they feel must be absolutely unbearable if they'd even concider doing something so extreme as to end their life.
Okay, we're finally getting somewhere. You say: "I believe [selfishness] is inherently bad." But then you say you don't believe it is immoral. What exactly does "bad" mean? I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I don't understand you. It sounded like you were telling me a couple of posts ago that selfish actions are immoral because they have a drain on society. I am telling you that suicide is a selfish action and that it has a negative drain on people around the subject and you even seem to concede this point. So why the double standard? Why is it alright to be selfish when it comes to suicide but not in any other context?
To me, something being immoral implies a sort of Christian "gonna burn in Hell" level of evil. When I say something is bad, I mean something that varies from slight discomfort to exchruciating pain, without any kind of "moral" judgment attached to it. In the case of suicide it's bad because it denies the society the person as a resource and because it causes pain and grief to others linked to the person. However, it does not sit with my definition of "immoral" (murder, rape etc.).
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
If you realize that decisions are the result of emotional as well as rational processes, you must recognize that a mood disorder can impair judgement.
Adrien on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
If you realize that decisions are the result of emotional as well as rational processes, you must recognize that a mood disorder can impair judgement.
Even if a person makes bad choices because they're depressed, they still realize that those choices are bad. If they were so inclined, they could choose otherwise.
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Are they entirely without blame? A mentally retarded person who manages to get a hold of a handgun and pulls the trigger, killing someone, is probably entirely free of blame because they don't know what they're doing. Not so for someone who commits suicide. They know that what they're going to do has devastating repercussions but they're in a state of mind in which they don't care about that; they just want satisfaction for their own problems. Because there is awareness of the consequences of their actions, their disregard for these actions in pursuit of their own goals makes it selfish.
Being suicidal doesn't erase ALL capacities for thought. They do have a sense of what they're doing, it's just that they don't view it in from a "normal" perspective leading them to decide that their suffering outweighs the suffering they will cause by killing themself.
A person who, in a healthy, normal state of mind, living a happy, full life kills himself because he wants to hurt everyone around him > Tremendously selfish
A person who suffers greatly from depression, living an unhappy, unfulfilling, terrible life kills himself because he wants to stop suffering > A lesser degree of selfish
This doesn't include people who are crazy though. Someone who lives their whole life believing that aliens are going to come in the middle of the night and rip open his skull to extract his brain while he's still alive, kills himself > On the same level of cupability as the retarded person who fires off a few rounds.
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
You're falling into the trap of using words incorrectly and inaccurately.
When laypeople talk about being depressed or being in depression, it's usually in reference to feeling bummed out about something. You can even talk about being "seriously depressed," and just be referring to being really down.
That is not what Major Depressive Disorder or any of the other medical diagnoses are.
When you are clinically depressed, your mind is functioning completely differently from a normal person's.
The world is as different, in emotional terms, from the way normal people see it, as is the way a schizophrenic sees it.
So it makes perfect sense to talk of someone who is completely lost in a clinically depressed state as someone who can not "perfectly well judge the consequences of their actions." In fact, that is exactly what they cannot do.
It is a mental illness, and it should be treated as such.
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
If you realize that decisions are the result of emotional as well as rational processes, you must recognize that a mood disorder can impair judgement.
Even if a person makes bad choices because they're depressed, they still realize that those choices are bad. If they were so inclined, they could choose otherwise.
My response is the same.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Suicide is usually done when someone is severely mentally unwell.
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
You're falling into the trap of using words incorrectly and inaccurately.
When laypeople talk about being depressed or being in depression, it's usually in reference to feeling bummed out about something. You can even talk about being "seriously depressed," and just be referring to being really down.
That is not what Major Depressive Disorder or any of the other medical diagnoses are.
When you are clinically depressed, your mind is functioning completely differently from a normal person's.
The world is as different, in emotional terms, from the way normal people see it, as is the way a schizophrenic sees it.
So it makes perfect sense to talk of someone who is completely lost in a clinically depressed state as someone who can not "perfectly well judge the consequences of their actions." In fact, that is exactly what they cannot do.
It is a mental illness, and it should be treated as such.
Thank you for the lecture. I was severely depressed with plenty of suicidal thoughts several years ago, I know how it is like.
Thank you for the lecture. I was severely depressed with plenty of suicidal thoughts several years ago, I know how it is like.
Were you clinically diagnosed with Depression? If not then I find it hard to believe you'd understand. I'm sure everyone has at one point had times when they've contemplated suicide because things arn't going right. I suffer from Manic Depression; I'll go for periods of my life being extremely happy then other periods I'll feel extreme despair. There's nothing worse than a feeling of complete hopelessness despite the fact that you know everything in life is going well. There's no way to rationalise how you feel.
I can understand why people suffering from pure Depression would want to take a way out, I count myself lucky that I get periods of extreme satisfaction with life for years at a time.
I honestly think those that are calling people who choose suicide selfish don't really understand the nature of the illness; it's almost akin to torture. You understand you're not being rational, thats the worst part about it.
Edit: I'm not trying to belittle people who've contemplated suicide in the past. I'm just saying that having depression as an illness and thinking about suicide during a rough period arn't the same thing.
Thank you for the lecture. I was severely depressed with plenty of suicidal thoughts several years ago, I know how it is like.
Were you clinically diagnosed with Depression? If not then I find it hard to believe you'd understand.
No, all I got was a psychologist who, after some time, concluded that I was depressed. But, she wasn't a psychiastrist or anything so who knows, maybe she was wrong. Maybe I was superduper fine. Not that my mom would've let me see a psychiatrist, she was wary enough of the psychologist as it was.
I'm sure everyone has at one point had times when they've contemplated suicide because things arn't going right. I suffer from Manic Depression; I'll go for periods of my life being extremely happy then other periods I'll feel extreme despair. There's nothing worse than a feeling of complete hopelessness despite the fact that you know everything in life is going well. There's no way to rationalise how you feel.
I know how that feels. But of course, since I'm obviously lying about it, why take my word for it?
I honestly think those that are calling people who choose suicide selfish don't really understand the nature of the illness; it's almost akin to torture. You understand you're not being rational, thats the worst part about it.
Though I think it's selfish, I wouldn't vilify the person for it. I realize that they're in great amount of pain and suicide is the only exit they see.
Aside from having weekly meetings with the school psychologist, I wasn't. What happened for me was that my mother got rid of her boyfriend (a total abusive psycho), I got out of school where everyone hated me and let me know every single day, made some new friends while I was at high school and later fell in love. It was roughly at this point when I realized that life wasn't bad enough for me to kill myself to get rid of it. Though I'm still depressed, nowadays it's more of the "bummed out" variety rather than the more serious variety.
Aside from having weekly meetings with the school psychologist, I wasn't. What happened for me was that my mother got rid of her boyfriend (a total abusive psycho), I got out of school where everyone hated me and let me know every single day, made some new friends while I was at high school and later fell in love. It was roughly at this point when I realized that life wasn't bad enough for me to kill myself to get rid of it. Though I'm still depressed, nowadays it's more of the "bummed out" variety rather than the more serious variety.
One of the things about clinical depression is that most times it's completely unrelated to life circumstances. It's the chemicals in the brain going south without any control on your part.
What you describe does not sound like what we are talking about. So I think you should become more aware about just what clinically diagnosed major depression is.
Doesn't mean I feel any different about suicide, though.
Also, I thought all depression is somehow related to chemical balances and what not. Shows me what I know.
I'm not trying to convince you differently, I think suicide is an incredibly selfish act. But I don't think those with a mental illness can be held fully accountable for their actions. I'm just saying I understand why they feel they have to do it, not that I agree with it.
Edit: I'm much more upset with those people who are decrying suicide for selfish personal reasons, such as that it upsets them, rather than decrying it for the reason that it extinguishes a valuable human life.
Thank you for the lecture. I was severely depressed with plenty of suicidal thoughts several years ago, I know how it is like.
Were you clinically diagnosed with Depression? If not then I find it hard to believe you'd understand. I'm sure everyone has at one point had times when they've contemplated suicide because things arn't going right. I suffer from Manic Depression; I'll go for periods of my life being extremely happy then other periods I'll feel extreme despair. There's nothing worse than a feeling of complete hopelessness despite the fact that you know everything in life is going well. There's no way to rationalise how you feel.
I can understand why people suffering from pure Depression would want to take a way out, I count myself lucky that I get periods of extreme satisfaction with life for years at a time.
I honestly think those that are calling people who choose suicide selfish don't really understand the nature of the illness; it's almost akin to torture. You understand you're not being rational, thats the worst part about it.
Edit: I'm not trying to belittle people who've contemplated suicide in the past. I'm just saying that having depression as an illness and thinking about suicide during a rough period arn't the same thing.
It's "selfish" from a purely scientific/dictionary point of view.
self·ish
–adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.
The word "selfish" may have a negative connotation as well but regardless of that suicide is, by definition, a selfish action. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. It's certainly not an altruistic action :P, and in the cases that it is, "altruistic suicide" in all its forms is usually referred to as "sacrifice."
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How is that not just as selfish and immoral as suicide? An entire life of suffering vs. a period of grief/guilt. That just doesn't balance out.
I also disagree strongly with the idea of "unending suffering".
Well, you have to understand, it's Drez's grief versus someone else's life of suffering. He's not the one suffering so why should he care about it?
Yeah, I certainly do understand where you're coming from. In that instance I would think I'd be more prone to want to become someone's lab monkey, being that in such a manner my existence would have some benefit and there was some slim chance of a cure, rather than throwing it all away. I mean, it's hard to make the value judgment of whether you'd rather have a lobotomy or rather be dead, but, you know, if it's for science...
I also certainly don't believe in any afterlife, but I'm not necessarily suggesting experience is good for the sake of having the memories of it. One may simply live life for the sake of existence. As I sort of see it, when I'm dead, all my options have been exhausted. There may be no point in living, but there's likely no point in dying then either. Granted the vague possibility that there is a point in any of these things, I'd do best to experience them all to find out, and for all our knowledge once you've experienced death you can't go back and experience life again, so I figure it's most logical to experience as much of life as possible first.
Again, though, I admit I'm naive about these sorts of things. I couldn't say I know what it's like to be unhappy.
Why do you want to get away from motive? Your entire point is that the motive of suicide is to send a message, and you just haven't demonstrated that for a majority of cases. Blowing open a bank vault makes a loud noise, but you wouldn't say the crooks blew it open to annoy the neighbors when there's millions of dollars inside.
My expectation is that most people who commit suicide realize that it will cause suffering, but are suffering so much themselves to be beyond the point of caring. Depression affecting judgement and all that.
That's actually a very good point on both your parts. So please explain to me the following:
a) Why, exactly, is it my responsibility to absorb and then endure the suffering your suicide will cause, but it is not your responsibility to endure your suffering? Why is your suffering more important than the suffering your actions will cause?
b) Why is it morally acceptable for you to transfer your suffering to others?
c) Assuming suicide isn't even in the picture, yes, please explain to me why I am obligated to care about your problems/depression/etc.?
Thanks. Maybe I sound callous but I think you are all assuming some very silly things. I care very much about some people and it burns in me when they are upset but it is not my moral obligation to give a shit. I give a shit because I choose to do so, not because I have to. When you commit suicide you are forcing people to deal with your action, you are forcing people into a reaction. How is this even remotely justifiable? Or are other people just acceptable casualties in your personal, mental war? Hell, I have severe OCD and I half the reason I try to cover it up is so other people aren't creeped out by the rituals. You know how much it BURNS to reject these impulses sometimes? A god damn lot. But it's my disorder, not the disorder of those around me.
I think people, even depressed people, have a lot more willpower than people give them credit for and I think not expecting people to be strong makes excuses for crap like suicide.
As for the other guy: maybe getting mad won't solve anything, but when a guy leaves a note blaming his sister, at least partially, for his desire to end his life...and about something he has no right to even judge her on...then yeah I get a little mad and I think I have every right to be. He was a complete idiot and a complete asshole for that. And that's just one example. Not everyone that kills him or herself is an asshole. I know I'm being pretty harsh here. But to categorically absolve people of the fact that their selfish actions have rippling reprecussions and that these people deserve no blame or ill thought for it is beyond reason.
So, basically, you don't care, but yet for some reason you get all upset when the person offs himself? That seems a little strange.
I said "let's get away from the motive" because frankly it is irrelevant and people are still responsible for the effects of their actions. Even in the example you provided, the bank vault robbers are guilty of breaking and entering but they are also guilty of annoying the neighbors even if that wasn't a motive in their assault.
That said you are right that part of my argument is that many people who commit suicide do to specifically to send a message. I still hold that, but I was presenting the fact that it really doesn't matter because their actions are usually reprehensible anyway.
Did you miss where I said "assuming suicide isn't even in the picture"? In (c) I am asking when or why anyone is obligated to care about another person's problems.
I care about many things. Almost everyone does. I care about the people near me. But I'm not obligated to, morally or otherwise.
A good person cares. They don't need a reason for it. A bad person doesn't care because they're selfish fucks.
Also, just like you're not obligated to care about their problems, you're not obligated to care about them killing themselves, so why is it a problem?
Eh, it's not rugby. More to do with how the country was set up, essentially by solitary colonialists who went into the bush alone and tried to make something for themselves. It lead to a messed up national psyche, really. My teacher in year 12 media studies of all things did a damn fine dissection of this topic for us in one lesson.
Also, don't we have the second highest or highest youth suicide rate in the developed world? And the government has specific/retarded criteria for deciding what actually constitutes a suicide which makes the numbers look like they're lower than they are.
And thinking about it, I'm surprised Labour doesn't spend more to set up help facilities or whatever considering what a big bunch of populist commie fucks they are.
First off, selfishness is not inherently bad or evil. It is when your selfishness leads to harming others. I don't have a problem with the selfishness of suicide, actually. It is an entirely selfish action, but that is not what makes it immoral in my philosophy. What makes it immoral is that it directly damages other people. So, there is nothing bad or immoral about selfishly not caring about another's well-being. That's just silly. Where do you draw the line? Do you shed tears for and open your heart up to every single person you interact with? You'd go mental.
Second, are you really this naive? I really have to wonder about some people in this thread. I'm not obligated to care, no, and you're not necessarily obligated to live on my behalf either, but the nature of suicide devastates people in the proximity. It has an area effect. When you do that you are forcing a reaction and actually are obligating someone to feel something. Unless you're a stone cold person that can completely dissociate yourself from your emotions. When someone does something like this it is violently disruptive to those around him or her. It evokes, forcibly. But only art should forcibly evoke. If someone wants to make a rational case on how suicide is art, I'll entertain it perhaps, but other than that I don't think you have a case.
I believe it is inherently bad. We prosper through society and selfishness does nothing for the society, and in fact often takes away from the society for the benefit of the individual.
So, forcing someone else to feel an emotion is inherently bad?
What if I buy my girlfriend a bunch of roses? What if she is moved by this gesture? Is this bad? Have I crossed some sort of line? Did I do the wrong thing by forcing her to feel in this way? If I tell you a joke and it amuses you, am I the bad guy?
And what I'm saying is that it's annoying the neighbors that's irrelevant. The meaningful thing is the jackpot, the death. I submit that most people kill themselves because they are in pain. Wanting to send a message is, if a factor, entirely an auxiliary one. It doesn't matter how much you want to communicate, you're not going to kill yourself if you want to be alive more than you want to die.
That's also the problem with your idea that suicide is wrong because it hurts people. Suicide is a way to end pain. To be an immoral action, it would obviously have to create more suffering that it ends. But in the mind of the victim, nothing is worse than their pain. That's what depression is. So there's the question: Who are you to say that the suicidal person is not suffering as much? How can you possibly know that?
And I don't. Still, are you then supporting my argument that suicide is immoral? Sucide is unarguably selfish, so your position is now foreign to me. Well, I mean you can argue the point, but you would be wrong. Suicide is a selfish action.
No, forcing someone to feel a negative emotion is inherently bad. You also removed the context of my comment.
Yes, it's very bad and you should go kill yourself over it.
Stupid-head. You know I was talking about negative emotions. I would hope. Increasing unhappiness or decreasing happiness is immoral from a utilitarian perspective and many other moral perspectives. While I'm not exactly a utilitarian, I would say "try not to emotionally harm other people as much as possible" is a good rule of thumb to live by.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. Just because something is secondary, tertiary, or auxillary doesn't make it any less meaningful. Motivation is important but it is not the only important thing.
For it to be immoral "it would obviously have to create more suffering than it ends"? Nonsense. What is this, emotional communism? It's okay to tip the scales until everyone is as happy and sad as everyone else? Misery loves company becomes the golden rule? Do unto others to make them feel exactly the same way you do?
This would justify a bully who elevates his own esteem completely by making someone else suffer just a little bit? It would justify any action that causes suffering in another if it alleviates more suffering. I think a lot of people would have a problem with this moral perspective.
There are eight zillion things wrong with what you've just suggested.
Attempted sucide may be a cry for help/pity or something that was rationalized as a cry for help/pity after the person got through whatever "crazy cycle" their brain was on at the time and can't really conceive of why they'd want to kill themselves except for a cry for help.
What gets me about these kinds of stories is that some folks (not you! I'm just responding to the theme, not you!) seem to think that if this guy just snapped out of it or did "something" to get himself out of the hole, that he'd be magically better... or that this guy is even capable of taking action toward getting himself help. It sounds cliche to say that you can't rationalize irrationality, but to this guy, as crazy as he knows he's acting, it's not like he's really wanting to smear his crap on the walls. He has to do it. At the point in time in which he is doing it, it seems like the most normal thing in the world. It's only after he does it that it dawns on him that "gee, that was pretty fucked up."
That's what people who have never really been through mental illness really don't seem to understand about mental illness. You're supposing that people are reflecting that "this is a bad thing I'm about to do and I'm just going to do it anyway" while they're in the act. It doesn't really work that way. I'm not saying that the people are not responsible for their actions... just that for a point in time that the perception of what is an acceptable action is shifted.
Yes, it is. I've never argued otherwise. However, I do not find suicide to be immoral. Killing others, that's immoral. Killing yourself? Nope, don't see it.
Suicide is bad, no doubt about it. But I'm not willing to lay any kind of blame on the person committing it because the pain they feel must be absolutely unbearable if they'd even concider doing something so extreme as to end their life.
You did not specify.
Sorry.
Yes, it is a good rule to live by. However, when you weight the unhappiness and pain of the person who committed suicide against the unhappiness and pain of those left behind, if one of them outweighs the other, I would say it is the unhappiness and pain of the deceased. As such, we have removed a great deal of unhappiness from the world with the price of some unhappiness for others. I'd venture a guess that in the end, it probably breaks even and as such, cannot be concidered truly immoral even by these utilitarian standards.
Well, I'm a relativist, so while it's technically justified to the actor if it increases his overall happiness, it's really only justified to me if it increases my overall happiness.
Regardless of that, happiness is not zero-sum. Most moral actions, or perhaps I should say the most moral actions, increase happiness uniformly. However, that can't always be done, and where suffering is inevitable, yes— we should act to minimize it. That's not a simple calculus, but it is essential.
Okay, we're finally getting somewhere. You say: "I believe [selfishness] is inherently bad." But then you say you don't believe it is immoral. What exactly does "bad" mean? I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I don't understand you. It sounded like you were telling me a couple of posts ago that selfish actions are immoral because they have a drain on society. I am telling you that suicide is a selfish action and that it has a negative drain on people around the subject and you even seem to concede this point. So why the double standard? Why is it alright to be selfish when it comes to suicide but not in any other context?
I don't agree with this, but it's at a fundamental level and I'm betting your philosophy is at a fundamental level too so there's no point in debating this. I don't think my happiness is a currency anyone else has a right to spend. Period.
Yes, I agree with you on this. However I conclude that the minimization here is for the suicidal party to continue suffering. I think a strong argument could be made to suggest that the total amount of suffering increases rather than decreases when someone commits suicide. Of course it depends on the person and how connected they are to others, but for the most part, while individual suffering may be less than the one borne by the suicidal person, there would be so many people negatively affected that the total Global Happiness Quotient On Earth would decrease. Or something.
Well, I think you're overestimating the amount of joy a suicidally depressed person contributes to the world. But that's sort of tangential to my real point, which is that I agree broadly— but I really can't consider a suicidally depressed person a rational moral actor.
To me, something being immoral implies a sort of Christian "gonna burn in Hell" level of evil. When I say something is bad, I mean something that varies from slight discomfort to exchruciating pain, without any kind of "moral" judgment attached to it. In the case of suicide it's bad because it denies the society the person as a resource and because it causes pain and grief to others linked to the person. However, it does not sit with my definition of "immoral" (murder, rape etc.).
We don't hold the severely mentally unwell as culpable for their actions as a normal person. So why are we calling the suicidal selfish? Why are they as responsible for causing suffering as you or I are, were we to do something that causes suffering?
Personally, I don't buy that "less culpable" babble. Sure, if someone's got, like Alzheimer's or something, then it flies. But I believe a regular person, no matter how depressed, can judge perfectly well the consequances of their actions.
If you realize that decisions are the result of emotional as well as rational processes, you must recognize that a mood disorder can impair judgement.
Even if a person makes bad choices because they're depressed, they still realize that those choices are bad. If they were so inclined, they could choose otherwise.
Are they entirely without blame? A mentally retarded person who manages to get a hold of a handgun and pulls the trigger, killing someone, is probably entirely free of blame because they don't know what they're doing. Not so for someone who commits suicide. They know that what they're going to do has devastating repercussions but they're in a state of mind in which they don't care about that; they just want satisfaction for their own problems. Because there is awareness of the consequences of their actions, their disregard for these actions in pursuit of their own goals makes it selfish.
Being suicidal doesn't erase ALL capacities for thought. They do have a sense of what they're doing, it's just that they don't view it in from a "normal" perspective leading them to decide that their suffering outweighs the suffering they will cause by killing themself.
A person who, in a healthy, normal state of mind, living a happy, full life kills himself because he wants to hurt everyone around him > Tremendously selfish
A person who suffers greatly from depression, living an unhappy, unfulfilling, terrible life kills himself because he wants to stop suffering > A lesser degree of selfish
This doesn't include people who are crazy though. Someone who lives their whole life believing that aliens are going to come in the middle of the night and rip open his skull to extract his brain while he's still alive, kills himself > On the same level of cupability as the retarded person who fires off a few rounds.
You're falling into the trap of using words incorrectly and inaccurately.
When laypeople talk about being depressed or being in depression, it's usually in reference to feeling bummed out about something. You can even talk about being "seriously depressed," and just be referring to being really down.
That is not what Major Depressive Disorder or any of the other medical diagnoses are.
When you are clinically depressed, your mind is functioning completely differently from a normal person's.
The world is as different, in emotional terms, from the way normal people see it, as is the way a schizophrenic sees it.
So it makes perfect sense to talk of someone who is completely lost in a clinically depressed state as someone who can not "perfectly well judge the consequences of their actions." In fact, that is exactly what they cannot do.
It is a mental illness, and it should be treated as such.
My response is the same.
Thank you for the lecture. I was severely depressed with plenty of suicidal thoughts several years ago, I know how it is like.
With how you were talking, you apparently needed it.
So no problem.
I can understand why people suffering from pure Depression would want to take a way out, I count myself lucky that I get periods of extreme satisfaction with life for years at a time.
I honestly think those that are calling people who choose suicide selfish don't really understand the nature of the illness; it's almost akin to torture. You understand you're not being rational, thats the worst part about it.
Edit: I'm not trying to belittle people who've contemplated suicide in the past. I'm just saying that having depression as an illness and thinking about suicide during a rough period arn't the same thing.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
how were you treated?
No, all I got was a psychologist who, after some time, concluded that I was depressed. But, she wasn't a psychiastrist or anything so who knows, maybe she was wrong. Maybe I was superduper fine. Not that my mom would've let me see a psychiatrist, she was wary enough of the psychologist as it was.
I know how that feels. But of course, since I'm obviously lying about it, why take my word for it?
Though I think it's selfish, I wouldn't vilify the person for it. I realize that they're in great amount of pain and suicide is the only exit they see.
Aside from having weekly meetings with the school psychologist, I wasn't. What happened for me was that my mother got rid of her boyfriend (a total abusive psycho), I got out of school where everyone hated me and let me know every single day, made some new friends while I was at high school and later fell in love. It was roughly at this point when I realized that life wasn't bad enough for me to kill myself to get rid of it. Though I'm still depressed, nowadays it's more of the "bummed out" variety rather than the more serious variety.
One of the things about clinical depression is that most times it's completely unrelated to life circumstances. It's the chemicals in the brain going south without any control on your part.
What you describe does not sound like what we are talking about. So I think you should become more aware about just what clinically diagnosed major depression is.
Edit: MikeMan beat'd me hard.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
Doesn't mean I feel any different about suicide, though.
Also, I thought all depression is somehow related to chemical balances and what not. Shows me what I know.
Edit: I'm much more upset with those people who are decrying suicide for selfish personal reasons, such as that it upsets them, rather than decrying it for the reason that it extinguishes a valuable human life.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
It's "selfish" from a purely scientific/dictionary point of view.
The word "selfish" may have a negative connotation as well but regardless of that suicide is, by definition, a selfish action. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. It's certainly not an altruistic action :P, and in the cases that it is, "altruistic suicide" in all its forms is usually referred to as "sacrifice."