Also, another thing to remember about Ocelot is that he's the son of the Boss who was the last surviving Patriot (in a sense. Her father was on the Wiseman's Council). Are we to assume that he never learned who his mother was and what happened to her?
She was the last surviving child of The Philosopher's. That's one thing that confuses me about the Philosopher's. It's heavily implied that they died out. But in a lot of the Timelines that Kojima has put out (in MGS3 and the two MGSaga DVD's) they still exist and still influence things. I didn't think it was until Ocelot gained all the Legacy and revived them that their influence came back to haunt people, but apparently not.
Yeah, like I said I'm just now playing the MGS games, and previously I've heard about the MGS1 bosses, like Psycho Mantis and Sniper Wolf and such, and the MGS3 bosses like The Pain and The End and such, but I never hear of the MGS2 bosses. It's like people just pass over them.
The bosses in MGS2 are just as good as MGS1's, though none of them have the memorable "gimmicks" (I don't like to use that word) that MGS1 or 3's have. When people think of MGS2's bosses, I like to think they just think of Fatman and go "ugh".
But fatman is extremely similar to vulcan raven in terms of gameplay, and I don't really see how a big spiritualist with a huge anti-aircraft gun is any less cheesy than a big fat guy who is also a mad bomber.
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
Is anyone even touching the beta? I played it constantly but since GTA IV I havent played a minute, I never even got to play the new map really. It's funny how I'm talking like my PS3 is in a far off land right now, that's how strong the urge is to play GTA instead.
I am soooooooooo out of the loop on the backstory for the MGS series. I remember watching the end of 2 and going "my god, when do we get 3?!" and then when I found out it was a prequel, that killed me. I don't have a PSP, so I can't play PO+. Where does all this information regarding Ocelot/Boss get revealed? And who the hell is Frank? I take it he's a character from one of the original MSX2 games?
The stuff with Ocelot and Big Boss being involved with the Patriots is in PO.
Frank Jaeger (probably didn't spell his last name right) is Grey Fox/Cyborg Ninja and who I think people are referring to when they say "Frank."
Also, another thing to remember about Ocelot is that he's the son of the Boss who was the last surviving Patriot (in a sense. Her father was on the Wiseman's Council). Are we to assume that he never learned who his mother was and what happened to her?
She was the last surviving child of The Philosopher's. That's one thing that confuses me about the Philosopher's. It's heavily implied that they died out. But in a lot of the Timelines that Kojima has put out (in MGS3 and the two MGSaga DVD's) they still exist and still influence things. I didn't think it was until Ocelot gained all the Legacy and revived them that their influence came back to haunt people, but apparently not.
Yeah, like I said I'm just now playing the MGS games, and previously I've heard about the MGS1 bosses, like Psycho Mantis and Sniper Wolf and such, and the MGS3 bosses like The Pain and The End and such, but I never hear of the MGS2 bosses. It's like people just pass over them.
The bosses in MGS2 are just as good as MGS1's, though none of them have the memorable "gimmicks" (I don't like to use that word) that MGS1 or 3's have. When people think of MGS2's bosses, I like to think they just think of Fatman and go "ugh".
Well isn't the fact that Ocelot is doing all this stuff to get the Legacy enough to constitute an influence by the Philosophers? So in that way, they continue to haunt the world?
Forever Zefiro on
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
But fatman is extremely similar to vulcan raven in terms of gameplay, and I don't really see how a big spiritualist with a huge anti-aircraft gun is any less cheesy than a big fat guy who is also a mad bomber.
I'm always confused when people say this. Besides from the fact that they each have slightly similar battle ground that you fight them both in, you can use completely different strategies to beat them both. A lot of people say "you use claymores to beat them both" but I have never used claymores to beat Vulcan Raven, and I only picked up the claymore trick with Fatman when I played MGS2 through on Extreme mode. Also, the Bomb Disposal element makes the Fatman boss completely different. I guess I just saw them as two completely different battles.
Well isn't the fact that Ocelot is doing all this stuff to get the Legacy enough to constitute an influence by the Philosophers? So in that way, they continue to haunt the world?
No, they directly influence a few bits and pieces. According to "Metal Gear Saga, Vol. 2" (which has a couple of plot inconsistencies so I don't consider it canon technically) they're directly responsible for the assassination of JFK. I see what you mean though.
Do we know anything about the supposed "new" gameplay footage yet? Was it cool stuff?
But fatman is extremely similar to vulcan raven in terms of gameplay, and I don't really see how a big spiritualist with a huge anti-aircraft gun is any less cheesy than a big fat guy who is also a mad bomber.
I'm always confused when people say this. Besides from the fact that they each have slightly similar battle ground that you fight them both in, you can use completely different strategies to beat them both. A lot of people say "you use claymores to beat them both" but I have never used claymores to beat Vulcan Raven, and I only picked up the claymore trick with Fatman when I played MGS2 through on Extreme mode. Also, the Bomb Disposal element makes the Fatman boss completely different. I guess I just saw them as two completely different battles.
Huh. Really? Claymores make Vulcan Raven a LOT easier, since he can't turn around at the last second and shoot them down like that son of a bitch tends to do with Nikitas.
Also, I don't think the idea is that you use Claymores on both. Rather, you use explosives to kill Raven, and Fatman, who's basically NegaRaven, uses explosives to kill you.
The only non-machine boss I used Stingers on was Vamp. I fought him once, got close to killing him and slipped up and died. It was late and I was frustrated so I just went "you know what fuck it" and whipped out the Stinger. Dude dropped nearly instantly.
So the game looks to be at least 50x more action oriented. That was a little expected given the setting, but I hope the classic stealth won't be completely done away with in exchange for combat stealth.
So the game looks to be at least 50x more action oriented. That was a little expected given the setting, but I hope the classic stealth won't be completely done away with in exchange for combat stealth.
You can still go through the game without killing anyone. It's just if you want to gun down the soldiers, you can. The combat is more improved than past iterations.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
So the game looks to be at least 50x more action oriented. That was a little expected given the setting, but I hope the classic stealth won't be completely done away with in exchange for combat stealth.
I'd say it's more 10x. The stealth element is still there, otherwise the Octo-camo would be completely pointless.
If you're interested, I could send you some gameplay footage that will put to your fears to rest. Let me know and I'll send you a PM to some links.
One thing i would like to know is, if MGS4 still going to have the same alert system as the previous games. I've seen some of the game play footage, and i know stealth is still in a big part of the game, but when discovering snake, the soldiers don't seem to react the same way, they simply open fire. It was early footage, so who knows.
I don't really think the old system would make any sense in a battle. It's more likely that if you're found the soldiers of that country will recognize you in disguises and stuff like that, but not actively search for you unless they're policing or patrolling that particular area.
What I'm wondering is; does anyone have a link to that thesis regarding how truely badass Metal Gear 2 was, because, it was the best game ever made when put in context with MGS1 and how Kojima essenitally shattered your experience and made something else entirely of it?
The text was pretty long, dissecting the boss fights and the important points, and comparing them to MGS1, to parallel how in the first one the game has you running around as Snake, murdering and vindicating everything in your path until you get out from the tunnel and into the light with a girl and a happy ending, to MGS2 where you play as Raiden who is generally a failiure, and all of his bossfights are meaningless, because he technically doesn't win any of them.
Can't fight Fortune, Fatman wasn't even a skidmark in the grand scheme, more of a bomb distraction, both of the Harrier pilots were still alive after the shootout, Vamp lives regardless and kills your friends, he's even in the final New York scene standing next to a cab, even sniping him getting a chance to kill him a second time fails, you can't beat the RAY's, even on Euro Extreme, you beat 21 or so IIRC but still, the same failiure cutscene plays, not to mention Snake was stoic, courageous, a badass, while Raiden was a whiny pussy, etc.
Until he finally breaks free in the end, gets his childhood memories back and buys himself a limited identity, (casting away the fake one which was an emulation of Snake) with which he defeats Solidus, the first and only victory he achieves in the entire goddamn game, that carries meaning.
The text was really (IIRC, been a while since I lost the link) about how Kojima brilliantly makes you play the anti-snake, fully expecting you to have played MGS1 and have liked it, denying you what you liked the first game about (which is why so many people hated it and even to date say "OMG MGS2 SUXXORED, MGS1 WAS THE ONLY GOOD ONE") thus achieving more or less the first example in history of numbered sequels ever (whatever media), where the sequel IS NOT a retread or more of the same. It's something completely different and the opposite generally. And ironically, in order to achieve that, he retreads the whole first game identically (boss fights the same, gameplay the same, objectives the same).
Anyone got a link to that? I'd like to read its finer points again.
What I'm wondering is; does anyone have a link to that thesis regarding how truely badass Metal Gear 2 was, because, it was the best game ever made when put in context with MGS1 and how Kojima essenitally shattered your experience and made something else entirely of it?
The text was pretty long, dissecting the boss fights and the important points, and comparing them to MGS1, to parallel how in the first one the game has you running around as Snake, murdering and vindicating everything in your path until you get out from the tunnel and into the light with a girl and a happy ending, to MGS2 where you play as Raiden who is generally a failiure, and all of his bossfights are meaningless, because he technically doesn't win any of them.
Can't fight Fortune, Fatman wasn't even a skidmark in the grand scheme, more of a bomb distraction, both of the Harrier pilots were still alive after the shootout, Vamp lives regardless and kills your friends, he's even in the final New York scene standing next to a cab, even sniping him getting a chance to kill him a second time fails, you can't beat the RAY's, even on Euro Extreme, you beat 21 or so IIRC but still, the same failiure cutscene plays, not to mention Snake was stoic, courageous, a badass, while Raiden was a whiny pussy, etc.
Until he finally breaks free in the end, gets his childhood memories back and buys himself a limited identity, (casting away the fake one which was an emulation of Snake) with which he defeats Solidus, the first and only victory he achieves in the entire goddamn game, that carries meaning.
The text was really (IIRC, been a while since I lost the link) about how Kojima brilliantly makes you play the anti-snake, fully expecting you to have played MGS1 and have liked it, denying you what you liked the first game about (which is why so many people hated it and even to date say "OMG MGS2 SUXXORED, MGS1 WAS THE ONLY GOOD ONE") thus achieving more or less the first example in history of numbered sequels ever (whatever media), where the sequel IS NOT a retread or more of the same. It's something completely different and the opposite generally. And ironically, in order to achieve that, he retreads the whole first game identically (boss fights the same, gameplay the same, objectives the same).
Anyone got a link to that? I'd like to read its finer points again.
Maybe these should go in the OP? I think they've been requested a few times.
EDIT: And for what it's worth, I just read that Dreaming in an Empty Room article and I'm not all that impressed. The guy seems like he's got an inkling of something, but just sort of flounders about for the majority of the thing.
Awesome. I knew I liked MGS2 the best out of all the MGS games for a reason, despite what all the jerks who hated it said.
It's because I'm an American who thinks for himself, unlike all those pinko communist bastards who only want to reaffirm standard cultural narratives. :P
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Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
The text was pretty long, dissecting the boss fights and the important points, and comparing them to MGS1, to parallel how in the first one the game has you running around as Snake, murdering and vindicating everything in your path until you get out from the tunnel and into the light with a girl and a happy ending, to MGS2 where you play as Raiden who is generally a failiure, and all of his bossfights are meaningless, because he technically doesn't win any of them.
Can't fight Fortune, Fatman wasn't even a skidmark in the grand scheme, more of a bomb distraction, both of the Harrier pilots were still alive after the shootout, Vamp lives regardless and kills your friends, he's even in the final New York scene standing next to a cab, even sniping him getting a chance to kill him a second time fails, you can't beat the RAY's, even on Euro Extreme, you beat 21 or so IIRC but still, the same failiure cutscene plays, not to mention Snake was stoic, courageous, a badass, while Raiden was a whiny pussy, etc.
Until he finally breaks free in the end, gets his childhood memories back and buys himself a limited identity, (casting away the fake one which was an emulation of Snake) with which he defeats Solidus, the first and only victory he achieves in the entire goddamn game, that carries meaning.
MGS4 spoiler rumor(?)
Reading what you just wrote, it kind of makes it symbolic if that rumor is true that in MGS4, all that is left of Raiden is his head(his mind and memories) and spine(his courage, standing for himself finally).
Forever Zefiro on
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
I disagree that him fighting Solidus is a victory in any sort of capacity. That was part of the Snake emulation. Solidus was his Big Boss, and the Patriots constantly tell him that he has no choice but to fight him.
What would have really been a victory would be if he allowed Solidus to kill him, though that would be quite the downer of an ending.
The Altair-style cloak seen in the "Assassin's Gear" joke trailer is an actual outfit worn by Snake in the game in order to infiltrate a militia.
You're ranked for each of the game's missions (like the one in the now-familiar Middle Eastern locale), with better results netting more Drebin Points.
Reading what you just wrote, it kind of makes it symbolic if that rumor is true that in MGS4, all that is left of Raiden is his head(his mind and memories) and spine(his courage, standing for himself finally).
that is reading far, far too much into it
i even thought driving off the map was OTT, and if it is true that makes mgs2 the most pretentious game ever made
The Altair-style cloak seen in the "Assassin's Gear" joke trailer is an actual outfit worn by Snake in the game in order to infiltrate a militia.
You're ranked for each of the game's missions (like the one in the now-familiar Middle Eastern locale), with better results netting more Drebin Points.
Are you sure about that first point? We already knew that Snake would wear some sort of cloak to infiltrate the militia as it was seen in the 15 minute trailer. I didn't see anything mentioned about the Assassin's Solid cloak being usable in-game. Even if it is usable in-game, it's probably an unlockable, like the tuxedo.
If I can play MGS3 on the PS3 I will buy the PS3 solely to play MGS3 and 4.
I love the series. Currently playing through 2 on the xbox now.
Pre-order the 80GB MGS4 bundle, if you can. It comes with backwards compatibility. And speaking of playing PS2 games on the PS3, I like the upscaler. You can choose full mode to fill up the whole screen, and you'd think it would make things look stretched out, but it actually looks quite fine. Nobody looks fat and I don't see anything cut off, either.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
Some huge MGS4 spoilers are going round now, and there's a rumor that the script has leaked. Although the script rumor has supposedly been shot down, the one huge MGS4 spoiler that is creeping up around the web, is very true as I've seen it myself. I'm very pissed off that I've seen it, and I don't want to see any talk about it in this thread. I don't want anyone ruining this game for anyone else, as some of us have been waiting for this game for years.
I know I've got warnings already in the OP, but I just wanted to reiterate the point.
It's a picture. I'd avoid any message board that's home to blithering idiots (such as GameFAQ's, or the Metal Gear Solid Unofficial Site) as a mate of mine found out thanks to some moron posting it in a thread title over at ps3forums. Just be careful, I guess.
I know that, generally, people here are pretty good about stuff like this, just figured I'd warn people to be cautious.
It's a picture. I'd avoid any message board that's home to blithering idiots (such as GameFAQ's, or the Metal Gear Solid Unofficial Site) as a mate of mine found out thanks to some moron posting it in a thread title over at ps3forums. Just be careful, I guess.
I know that, generally, people here are pretty good about stuff like this, just figured I'd warn people to be cautious.
Thanks for the warning. On my end, the media blackout begins now, I guess.
Posts
I imagine that if I were 10 years old, I would laugh quite heartily at that comic, and would find "Metal Gear Mustache" to be very clever.
I wasn't thrilled when I saw it.
But fatman is extremely similar to vulcan raven in terms of gameplay, and I don't really see how a big spiritualist with a huge anti-aircraft gun is any less cheesy than a big fat guy who is also a mad bomber.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
The stuff with Ocelot and Big Boss being involved with the Patriots is in PO.
Frank Jaeger (probably didn't spell his last name right) is Grey Fox/Cyborg Ninja and who I think people are referring to when they say "Frank."
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Well isn't the fact that Ocelot is doing all this stuff to get the Legacy enough to constitute an influence by the Philosophers? So in that way, they continue to haunt the world?
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
I'm undecided on watching this. I guess if its only pure game play i may as well, i mean i have already played the game in way...sort of...
PSN:Hakira__
I'm always confused when people say this. Besides from the fact that they each have slightly similar battle ground that you fight them both in, you can use completely different strategies to beat them both. A lot of people say "you use claymores to beat them both" but I have never used claymores to beat Vulcan Raven, and I only picked up the claymore trick with Fatman when I played MGS2 through on Extreme mode. Also, the Bomb Disposal element makes the Fatman boss completely different. I guess I just saw them as two completely different battles.
You're the first person in this thread to spell his name right.
(Well maybe. I didn't go through every post and check, hehe.)
No, they directly influence a few bits and pieces. According to "Metal Gear Saga, Vol. 2" (which has a couple of plot inconsistencies so I don't consider it canon technically) they're directly responsible for the assassination of JFK. I see what you mean though.
Do we know anything about the supposed "new" gameplay footage yet? Was it cool stuff?
Huh. Really? Claymores make Vulcan Raven a LOT easier, since he can't turn around at the last second and shoot them down like that son of a bitch tends to do with Nikitas.
Also, I don't think the idea is that you use Claymores on both. Rather, you use explosives to kill Raven, and Fatman, who's basically NegaRaven, uses explosives to kill you.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
Yep, exactly. Bastard can't shoot those down.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DJ5772JH
There's a MegaUpload for it, if you wanna download it, and here's a YouTube link.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Good footage, but watching anything from G4 hurts me.
PSN:Hakira__
Tell me about it. That guys voice gets on my nerves. And the guy playing seems like he has no idea what he's doing.
You can still go through the game without killing anyone. It's just if you want to gun down the soldiers, you can. The combat is more improved than past iterations.
I'd say it's more 10x. The stealth element is still there, otherwise the Octo-camo would be completely pointless.
If you're interested, I could send you some gameplay footage that will put to your fears to rest. Let me know and I'll send you a PM to some links.
PSN:Hakira__
The text was pretty long, dissecting the boss fights and the important points, and comparing them to MGS1, to parallel how in the first one the game has you running around as Snake, murdering and vindicating everything in your path until you get out from the tunnel and into the light with a girl and a happy ending, to MGS2 where you play as Raiden who is generally a failiure, and all of his bossfights are meaningless, because he technically doesn't win any of them.
Can't fight Fortune, Fatman wasn't even a skidmark in the grand scheme, more of a bomb distraction, both of the Harrier pilots were still alive after the shootout, Vamp lives regardless and kills your friends, he's even in the final New York scene standing next to a cab, even sniping him getting a chance to kill him a second time fails, you can't beat the RAY's, even on Euro Extreme, you beat 21 or so IIRC but still, the same failiure cutscene plays, not to mention Snake was stoic, courageous, a badass, while Raiden was a whiny pussy, etc.
Until he finally breaks free in the end, gets his childhood memories back and buys himself a limited identity, (casting away the fake one which was an emulation of Snake) with which he defeats Solidus, the first and only victory he achieves in the entire goddamn game, that carries meaning.
The text was really (IIRC, been a while since I lost the link) about how Kojima brilliantly makes you play the anti-snake, fully expecting you to have played MGS1 and have liked it, denying you what you liked the first game about (which is why so many people hated it and even to date say "OMG MGS2 SUXXORED, MGS1 WAS THE ONLY GOOD ONE") thus achieving more or less the first example in history of numbered sequels ever (whatever media), where the sequel IS NOT a retread or more of the same. It's something completely different and the opposite generally. And ironically, in order to achieve that, he retreads the whole first game identically (boss fights the same, gameplay the same, objectives the same).
Anyone got a link to that? I'd like to read its finer points again.
I'd like to read it, especailly before MGS4 hits.
http://www.insertcredit.com/features/dreaming2/
Dreaming in an Empty Room by Tim Rogers
Also makes a mean chicken.
Maybe these should go in the OP? I think they've been requested a few times.
EDIT: And for what it's worth, I just read that Dreaming in an Empty Room article and I'm not all that impressed. The guy seems like he's got an inkling of something, but just sort of flounders about for the majority of the thing.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Awesome. I knew I liked MGS2 the best out of all the MGS games for a reason, despite what all the jerks who hated it said.
It's because I'm an American who thinks for himself, unlike all those pinko communist bastards who only want to reaffirm standard cultural narratives. :P
MGS4 spoiler rumor(?)
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
What would have really been a victory would be if he allowed Solidus to kill him, though that would be quite the downer of an ending.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
A few minor points of note:
or was that the button for octocamo
that is reading far, far too much into it
i even thought driving off the map was OTT, and if it is true that makes mgs2 the most pretentious game ever made
Yes, you do it with triangle, like in Portable Ops. Octo-camo is automatic.
I love the series. Currently playing through 2 on the xbox now.
Pre-order the 80GB MGS4 bundle, if you can. It comes with backwards compatibility. And speaking of playing PS2 games on the PS3, I like the upscaler. You can choose full mode to fill up the whole screen, and you'd think it would make things look stretched out, but it actually looks quite fine. Nobody looks fat and I don't see anything cut off, either.
Some huge MGS4 spoilers are going round now, and there's a rumor that the script has leaked. Although the script rumor has supposedly been shot down, the one huge MGS4 spoiler that is creeping up around the web, is very true as I've seen it myself. I'm very pissed off that I've seen it, and I don't want to see any talk about it in this thread. I don't want anyone ruining this game for anyone else, as some of us have been waiting for this game for years.
I know I've got warnings already in the OP, but I just wanted to reiterate the point.
I know that, generally, people here are pretty good about stuff like this, just figured I'd warn people to be cautious.
Thanks for the warning. On my end, the media blackout begins now, I guess.
This shit happened to me with Bioshock. It was spoiled for me the day before I got to play it.
If MGS4 gets spoiled for me, I will fucking weep.