RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
My only question on your timeline there Ebum, is who told Richard Cohen to carry Cipro and when? If we've got government officials warning reporters about possible anthrax attacks before the actual anthrax attacks against reporters that originated within our own government, I want to know it.
ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
I'm not ready to claim the attacks themselves were a government conspiracy (that is, directed by the people in charge, not a conspiracy carried out by employees of the government which is what it looks like). It's still an incident on the level of the sinking of the Maine, which was used to justify the Spanish-American War, though not listed as an official causus belli.
I'm not ready to claim the attacks themselves were a government conspiracy (that is, directed by the people in charge, not a conspiracy carried out by employees of the government which is what it looks like). It's still an incident on the level of the sinking of the Maine, which was used to justify the Spanish-American War, though not listed as an official causus belli.
That is the apt comparison, yes. Complete with insane imperialistic war mongering media!
enlightenedbum on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I'm not ready to claim the attacks themselves were a government conspiracy (that is, directed by the people in charge, not a conspiracy carried out by employees of the government which is what it looks like). It's still an incident on the level of the sinking of the Maine, which was used to justify the Spanish-American War, though not listed as an official causus belli.
That is the apt comparison, yes. Complete with insane imperialistic war mongering media!
I linked to it in the same post as the link to Northwoods, nobody seemed to care about it though.
I'm not ready to claim the attacks themselves were a government conspiracy (that is, directed by the people in charge, not a conspiracy carried out by employees of the government which is what it looks like). It's still an incident on the level of the sinking of the Maine, which was used to justify the Spanish-American War, though not listed as an official causus belli.
That is the apt comparison, yes. Complete with insane imperialistic war mongering media!
I linked to it in the same post as the link to Northwoods, nobody seemed to care about it though.
My eyes kind of glaze over at Northwoods as it is 95% of the time to be followed by something crazy. Sorry.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Do you have any proof that this institute is so fucked up any scientist can walk out with a bucket full of Anthrax without anyone noticing? I mean, that's quite a claim you make there.
No. You guys know anthrax grows naturally right? You could go to many a farm and harvest it there. It's a microbe. They should have been wearing tec-vac suits and be scrubbed frequently though, so the chances of him both being the guy and then managing to escape with anthrax is pretty slim.
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Do you have any proof that this institute is so fucked up any scientist can walk out with a bucket full of Anthrax without anyone noticing? I mean, that's quite a claim you make there.
No. You guys know anthrax grows naturally right? You could go to many a farm and harvest it there. It's a microbe. They should have been wearing tec-vac suits and be scrubbed frequently though, so the chances of him both being the guy and then managing to escape with anthrax is pretty slim.
Yeah, except this stuff definitely came from Fort Detrick. Everything I've heard from every expert says it's no problem at all to track down specifically where a bioweapon is made. They all have unique signatures that lead back to their labs of origin. So this guy wasn't scraping anthrax off of sheep or something. And that's the part of this thing that makes me think he probably didn't act alone.
Well, there's only so much information out there right now about this. More than enough for tinfoiling, but not enough to see exactly what the scope of this was.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Well, there's only so much information out there right now about this. More than enough for tinfoiling, but not enough to see exactly what the scope of this was.
Well, there's only so much information out there right now about this. More than enough for tinfoiling, but not enough to see exactly what the scope of this was.
Precisely. So start tinfoiling!
After that one excellent post by enlightenedbum, I don't know what else needs to be said
It's not like this is especially new or unexpected.
Any decent cynic expected this kind of shit when it came out.
Exactly, there is nothing to be shocked by anymore and there isn't any way to fix the piss poor state things are in now. The only way to fix the US goverment in less than three generations requires a massive civilian uprising. The human cost of such an uprising would be incredible, a true horror to behold. Even then the multitude of enemies we've made will use the weakened state of the country to launch attacks both mental and physical. Effectively halting any chance of rebuilding.
So what's the alternative? Protests in the streets? There are plenty, it does nothing because no one listens and no one cares. Voting!? We as a people have NO power over our government. They hand us two or three corrupt pieces of shit every so often and tell us to choose which hell we want to be in.
It's not Apathy, it's the inability to change the source of the problem.
I still hate how everyone is citing this psychologist who has extremely low credentials, and may have only met with the man once, just a week or two before his suicide.
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
This seems like a good place to bring up "We are Dumb/We are Smart". Have you guys ever noticed that when it suits the purposes of our benevolent administrators, we are smart, and likewise dumb when that is required.
People in caves hijack planes and penetrate the most secure airspace in the world to achieve 75% of their (insanely hard to achieve) objectives. We are Dumb.
Yet, within a small span of time, we supposedly know who did it, and how they did it, even though they denied involvement in the most successful attack on America since Pearl Harbor. We are Smart.
Tinfoil hattery? Perhaps, but is anyone starting to see a pattern here? When it's required, the establishment can adopt the persona of a bumbling, befuddled bureaucrat. Likewise, it can adopt the persona of a Sherlock Holmes, Rambo, and Sun Tzu all rolled up into one.
Yes, I know that sometimes organizations can perform wonderfully one moment and dismally the next. Yet it also seems to be awfully convenient in many cases. In case you didn't know, the Lone Gunmen ( X-Files spinoff ) television series pilot was a Twin Towers destruction conspiracy. Complete with a hijacked, remote controlled airliner, and rogue elements in the establishment out to turn the Middle East into a free fire zone for oil and weapons sales. This pilot aired months before the tragedy in New York.
Are the writers of this show super geniuses? Psychics? No. Actually, flying planes into buildings had been a worry for quite some time. It had been discussed in the media, and throughout the intelligence and defense industry. The United States has run wargames based on the scenario. Some of these wargames were run on the day of infamy itself. If you think back, remember the deluge of comments that started with, "We never considered the possibility...", in the post 9/11 aftermath.
Does it seem like this pattern is playing out again?
We are smart. We are dumb.
Is there purpose? Is it just dumb, shitty, bad luck and incompetence? Or are people getting rich hand over fist, dodging allegations and congressional subpoenas, buying property in Uruguay and Dubai, and pulling personal fortunes out of the dollar.
We are smart. We are dumb. Who is smart? Who is dumb?
1) Plenty of people had thought about it and knew something like 9/11 was going to happen, but it didn't percolate through the bureaucracy in time. After the attack the full resources of the FBI were organized in one direction, at that point it's not terribly difficult to understand how results were achieved quickly.
2) You had passenger lists. The natural assumption for everyone when a terrorist attack happens is to think Arab Muslims, unfortunately (same thing was true in the Oklahoma City bombing). When each of the four planes has 4-6 Arab Muslim names you check those people out first, when it turns out they all had connections to one terrorist organization that had previously attacked the United States abroad and the same buildings in '93, the investigation is leading one way.
3) You had phone calls from people on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, presumably with a description of the hijackers that matched the concept of Arabs for further confirmation of that particular theory.
4) You had the same warnings that people had ignored/taken unseriously from before the attacks. They took on a new meaning after the attacks happened.
At that point it's just a matter of investigative details to confirm things, but from a whodunnit perspective, 9/11 wasn't a terribly difficult case to crack. I imagine all of that was done before the end of the day.
Also I don't recall Al Qaeda denying responsibility (and I seem to recall a tape of bin Laden bragging about it). I do recall the Taliban denying responsibility which was a half truth.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Uh yeah, I outright said to someone in my class on that I thought bin Laden did it on the day of 9/11. I'm no foreign policy genius, I was just a high schooler. His goons had tried an attack on the WTC earlier, and it fit his MO. If anything the administration was dumb for thinking that Iraq was such a likely suspect.
But yeah, there's a conspiracy theory for 9/11 that is true: it was a group of radical Muslims that conspired to do it.
While they've been able to strong-arm their way into getting what they want, this administration has been absolutely terrible at covering its ass after the fact. This is pretty much inarguable.
They did a good job in some parts, the missing e-mails, the executive privilege uses. But then they probably realized they didn't need to cover their shit because look at just how 'in danger' of prosecution Bush's administration is in.
Hell he even got the telephone companies immunity. Through a hostile Congress no less.
I'm not even sure they care about damaging the Republican party anymore, they are all probably jacking off to the thrill of getting away with it all.
They've done a decent job at deadending investigations (right down to denying clearances for the people investigating them on the grounds that they didn't feel like giving them clearances to investigate them. Woo)
I'd say they're horrible at covering up things. Even internal loyalist only meetings about how to start wars get leaked? That's horrible. They just setup a system of loyalists who could completely deadend investigations and prosecutions.
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
I know what I think. I just want to know what you guys think. I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. I don't think I have any "answers."
Drake, I think unfortunately your tinfoil-hat reconstruction of the events before and after 9/11 is entirely wrong. I will point out here that I am the most left-wing Bush administration hater out there, but I refuse to believe that even this administration could orchestrate something like 9/11 and get away with it, especially given how well they've executed every other cover-up they've needed (very poorly.) So I'll take a look at some of what you said and do my best to provide counterpoint:
1. These "people in caves" also executed other terrorist attacks against targets both in the USA and abroad and took credit for them - they are not morons. They were able to penetrate our airspace because they exploited our assumptions about what airline hijackings entailed - instead of hijacking an airplane and holding people hostage, they took those planes and used them as missiles - and all this happened in the span of an hour or so (from initial hijacking to ramming the planes into their targets.)
2. We knew in a short period of time who these people were by checking the passenger records and working backwards from there. Some of these guys engaged in some shady maneuvers prior to the morning of 9/11 (specifically one group of hijackers split up, 2 of them drove from Boston to Portland, ME to get on a flight back to Boston in the morning so they would not all be entering in a group.)
3. The warnings were there (specifically the "Bin-Laden Determined to Strike USA" memo) but were ignored because of the administration's incompetent anti-Clinton position of "anything they did, we will do the opposite." Reports from former Clinton administration people showed that the governmental transition included briefings on Al-Qaida and the like (serious stuff like "we think international terrorism is the next big threat to us) but that the Bush administration chose to ignore that information.
Also, I think Bin Laden initially denied involvement but later took credit.
With regards to the anthrax thing, it seems like what we're being told makes sense. And to whoever said that this guy would have to be bringing "buckets" of anthrax out, I think in total we're talking more like a tablespoon or two.
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
To be honest the 9/11 thing was just a hypothetical I whipped up as dressing for my "We are Dumb/We are Smart" idea. In retrospect I shouldn't have used that as an example. I should have known that it would take us off subject, in regards to the Anthrax case. It was flimsy, I just didn't have anything better at the time. Still, I don't think the idea itself is shoddy, just the presentation. Maybe I'll come back with something a little more solid, based on the actual topic at hand.
As far as the whole 9/11 thing goes, I have no clue what the solid deal is on that day. History will tell though, as it always does. One thing that I've noticed about American history lately is that lots of things that seemed cut and dried at the time turned out to be bullshit in one way or another. The examples are many and I'm sure they've been put on display here time and again. Once everything is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised to find out if there was some element of "inside job" on that day. To what extent and to what purpose, who knows? Only history will tell.
You can claim that this is merely an astonishing series of coincidences rather than an out-an-out conspiracy, but don't shrug it off with such a brainless excuse. This administration drained America dry, it set back foreign relations with the Middle East by at least another decade, and it's going to get away with everything it did. That is NOT. FUCKING. INCOMPETENCE.
You seem extremely sure of something that is nearly impossible for us to know. The tin foil in this thread is pretty fucking insane.
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
I don't think anyone (here, at least) disagrees that the administration spun events to work in their favor (like any politician does). But that is a huge difference from this insanity.
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
Yeah, and who needs a conspiracy when an agen..., an agenda will do fine.
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
I don't think anyone (here, at least) disagrees that the administration spun events to work in their favor (like any politician does). But that is a huge difference from this insanity.
Not really. It's actually not that much of a leap.
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
I don't think anyone (here, at least) disagrees that the administration spun events to work in their favor (like any politician does). But that is a huge difference from this insanity.
Not really. It's actually not that much of a leap.
Taking advantage of current events to advance your agenda to orchestrating current events in a false flag operation really is.
But I guess some of you hate Dubya so much you're willing to believe anything.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
It's just like the Joker said-- nobody worries when things go according to plan, even if the plan itself is horrible.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
I don't think anyone (here, at least) disagrees that the administration spun events to work in their favor (like any politician does). But that is a huge difference from this insanity.
Not really. It's actually not that much of a leap.
Taking advantage of current events to advance your agenda to orchestrating current events in a false flag operation really is.
But I guess some of you hate Dubya so much you're willing to believe anything.
there's also a difference between being involved in something on a certain level and directly orchestrating it.
I wouldn't ever say I know there is a true conspiracy there, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch. maybe because it really doesn't feel like this administration has done a single thing out of actual care for this country or its people.
To be honest the 9/11 thing was just a hypothetical I whipped up as dressing for my "We are Dumb/We are Smart" idea. In retrospect I shouldn't have used that as an example. I should have known that it would take us off subject, in regards to the Anthrax case. It was flimsy, I just didn't have anything better at the time. Still, I don't think the idea itself is shoddy, just the presentation. Maybe I'll come back with something a little more solid, based on the actual topic at hand.
As far as the whole 9/11 thing goes, I have no clue what the solid deal is on that day. History will tell though, as it always does. One thing that I've noticed about American history lately is that lots of things that seemed cut and dried at the time turned out to be bullshit in one way or another. The examples are many and I'm sure they've been put on display here time and again. Once everything is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised to find out if there was some element of "inside job" on that day. To what extent and to what purpose, who knows? Only history will tell.
You should check out the 9/11 commission report if you haven't yet and want some more info about it.
The article talks about how the lab he was at did not have the resources to modify the Anthrax in the ways that the Anthrax in the letters were.
Is this possible with SCIENCE?
Another FBI leak indicated that each particle was given a weak electric charge, thereby causing the particles to repel each other at the molecular level. This made it easier for the spores to float in the air, and increased their retention in the lungs.
Because it sounds like something straight outta Star Trek Voyager.
I know this is anecdotal and blah blah show some proof blah etc.
But I have a friend whose family works in the field and who worked with him. They insist he's innocent. Because of the conditions and restrictions placed on the handling of Anthrax (specifically the monitoring of the only area in his lab capable of handling powdered Anthrax) it is apparently almost impossible that he was guilty.
The article talks about how the lab he was at did not have the resources to modify the Anthrax in the ways that the Anthrax in the letters were.
Is this possible with SCIENCE?
Another FBI leak indicated that each particle was given a weak electric charge, thereby causing the particles to repel each other at the molecular level. This made it easier for the spores to float in the air, and increased their retention in the lungs.
Because it sounds like something straight outta Star Trek Voyager.
According to my grade 10 science class.... yes. If you put through either a negative or positive charge to all the particles, such that they all carry the same charge, then they will repel each other, much like two positive or two negative sides of magnets. When each particle is actively repelling each other, then they will dispurse much more readily.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I know this is anecdotal and blah blah show some proof blah etc.
But I have a friend whose family works in the field and who worked with him. They insist he's innocent. Because of the conditions and restrictions placed on the handling of Anthrax (specifically the monitoring of the only area in his lab capable of handling powdered Anthrax) it is apparently almost impossible that he was guilty.
December 15,2001, "I made up some poems about having two people in
one (me + the person in my dreams): . . .
I'm a little dream-self, short and stout.
I'm the other half of Bruce - when he lets me out.
When I get all steamed up, I don't pout.
I push Bruce aside, them I'm Free to run about!
Hickory dickory Doc - Doc Bruce ran up the clock.
But something then happened in very strange rhythm.
His other self went and exchanged places with him.
So now, please guess who
Is conversing with you.
Hickory dickory Doc!
Bruce and this other guy, sitting by some trees,
Exchanging personalities.
It's like having two in one.
Actually it's rather fun!"
Posts
That is the apt comparison, yes. Complete with insane imperialistic war mongering media!
I linked to it in the same post as the link to Northwoods, nobody seemed to care about it though.
My eyes kind of glaze over at Northwoods as it is 95% of the time to be followed by something crazy. Sorry.
Yeah, except this stuff definitely came from Fort Detrick. Everything I've heard from every expert says it's no problem at all to track down specifically where a bioweapon is made. They all have unique signatures that lead back to their labs of origin. So this guy wasn't scraping anthrax off of sheep or something. And that's the part of this thing that makes me think he probably didn't act alone.
Oh wait I know: Apathy!
Well, there's only so much information out there right now about this. More than enough for tinfoiling, but not enough to see exactly what the scope of this was.
Precisely. So start tinfoiling!
It's not like this is especially new or unexpected.
Any decent cynic expected this kind of shit when it came out.
After that one excellent post by enlightenedbum, I don't know what else needs to be said
Exactly, there is nothing to be shocked by anymore and there isn't any way to fix the piss poor state things are in now. The only way to fix the US goverment in less than three generations requires a massive civilian uprising. The human cost of such an uprising would be incredible, a true horror to behold. Even then the multitude of enemies we've made will use the weakened state of the country to launch attacks both mental and physical. Effectively halting any chance of rebuilding.
So what's the alternative? Protests in the streets? There are plenty, it does nothing because no one listens and no one cares. Voting!? We as a people have NO power over our government. They hand us two or three corrupt pieces of shit every so often and tell us to choose which hell we want to be in.
It's not Apathy, it's the inability to change the source of the problem.
The article is particularly shitty (it's the AP, what did you expect?), but at least the story is starting to catch on.
People in caves hijack planes and penetrate the most secure airspace in the world to achieve 75% of their (insanely hard to achieve) objectives. We are Dumb.
Yet, within a small span of time, we supposedly know who did it, and how they did it, even though they denied involvement in the most successful attack on America since Pearl Harbor. We are Smart.
Tinfoil hattery? Perhaps, but is anyone starting to see a pattern here? When it's required, the establishment can adopt the persona of a bumbling, befuddled bureaucrat. Likewise, it can adopt the persona of a Sherlock Holmes, Rambo, and Sun Tzu all rolled up into one.
Yes, I know that sometimes organizations can perform wonderfully one moment and dismally the next. Yet it also seems to be awfully convenient in many cases. In case you didn't know, the Lone Gunmen ( X-Files spinoff ) television series pilot was a Twin Towers destruction conspiracy. Complete with a hijacked, remote controlled airliner, and rogue elements in the establishment out to turn the Middle East into a free fire zone for oil and weapons sales. This pilot aired months before the tragedy in New York.
Are the writers of this show super geniuses? Psychics? No. Actually, flying planes into buildings had been a worry for quite some time. It had been discussed in the media, and throughout the intelligence and defense industry. The United States has run wargames based on the scenario. Some of these wargames were run on the day of infamy itself. If you think back, remember the deluge of comments that started with, "We never considered the possibility...", in the post 9/11 aftermath.
Does it seem like this pattern is playing out again?
We are smart. We are dumb.
Is there purpose? Is it just dumb, shitty, bad luck and incompetence? Or are people getting rich hand over fist, dodging allegations and congressional subpoenas, buying property in Uruguay and Dubai, and pulling personal fortunes out of the dollar.
We are smart. We are dumb. Who is smart? Who is dumb?
Discuss.
1) Plenty of people had thought about it and knew something like 9/11 was going to happen, but it didn't percolate through the bureaucracy in time. After the attack the full resources of the FBI were organized in one direction, at that point it's not terribly difficult to understand how results were achieved quickly.
2) You had passenger lists. The natural assumption for everyone when a terrorist attack happens is to think Arab Muslims, unfortunately (same thing was true in the Oklahoma City bombing). When each of the four planes has 4-6 Arab Muslim names you check those people out first, when it turns out they all had connections to one terrorist organization that had previously attacked the United States abroad and the same buildings in '93, the investigation is leading one way.
3) You had phone calls from people on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, presumably with a description of the hijackers that matched the concept of Arabs for further confirmation of that particular theory.
4) You had the same warnings that people had ignored/taken unseriously from before the attacks. They took on a new meaning after the attacks happened.
At that point it's just a matter of investigative details to confirm things, but from a whodunnit perspective, 9/11 wasn't a terribly difficult case to crack. I imagine all of that was done before the end of the day.
Also I don't recall Al Qaeda denying responsibility (and I seem to recall a tape of bin Laden bragging about it). I do recall the Taliban denying responsibility which was a half truth.
But yeah, there's a conspiracy theory for 9/11 that is true: it was a group of radical Muslims that conspired to do it.
They've done a decent job at deadending investigations (right down to denying clearances for the people investigating them on the grounds that they didn't feel like giving them clearances to investigate them. Woo)
I'd say they're horrible at covering up things. Even internal loyalist only meetings about how to start wars get leaked? That's horrible. They just setup a system of loyalists who could completely deadend investigations and prosecutions.
So far so good. Anyone else want to chime in?
1. These "people in caves" also executed other terrorist attacks against targets both in the USA and abroad and took credit for them - they are not morons. They were able to penetrate our airspace because they exploited our assumptions about what airline hijackings entailed - instead of hijacking an airplane and holding people hostage, they took those planes and used them as missiles - and all this happened in the span of an hour or so (from initial hijacking to ramming the planes into their targets.)
2. We knew in a short period of time who these people were by checking the passenger records and working backwards from there. Some of these guys engaged in some shady maneuvers prior to the morning of 9/11 (specifically one group of hijackers split up, 2 of them drove from Boston to Portland, ME to get on a flight back to Boston in the morning so they would not all be entering in a group.)
3. The warnings were there (specifically the "Bin-Laden Determined to Strike USA" memo) but were ignored because of the administration's incompetent anti-Clinton position of "anything they did, we will do the opposite." Reports from former Clinton administration people showed that the governmental transition included briefings on Al-Qaida and the like (serious stuff like "we think international terrorism is the next big threat to us) but that the Bush administration chose to ignore that information.
Also, I think Bin Laden initially denied involvement but later took credit.
With regards to the anthrax thing, it seems like what we're being told makes sense. And to whoever said that this guy would have to be bringing "buckets" of anthrax out, I think in total we're talking more like a tablespoon or two.
As far as the whole 9/11 thing goes, I have no clue what the solid deal is on that day. History will tell though, as it always does. One thing that I've noticed about American history lately is that lots of things that seemed cut and dried at the time turned out to be bullshit in one way or another. The examples are many and I'm sure they've been put on display here time and again. Once everything is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised to find out if there was some element of "inside job" on that day. To what extent and to what purpose, who knows? Only history will tell.
If you think about it, there's almost something comforting about the idea that our government can organize and cover up a massive conspiracy in a time when it seems like it can't take a leak without tripping over its own dick.
The idea that a couple of guys with knives can kill a thousand people in a single day? Now that's terrifying.
When you think of it like that, you can see why conspiracy theories are so attractive.
To be fair, though, they did do a good job of spinning it to accomplish their ultimate goals.
Yeah, and who needs a conspiracy when an agen..., an agenda will do fine.
Not really. It's actually not that much of a leap.
But I guess some of you hate Dubya so much you're willing to believe anything.
there's also a difference between being involved in something on a certain level and directly orchestrating it.
I wouldn't ever say I know there is a true conspiracy there, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch. maybe because it really doesn't feel like this administration has done a single thing out of actual care for this country or its people.
You should check out the 9/11 commission report if you haven't yet and want some more info about it.
The article talks about how the lab he was at did not have the resources to modify the Anthrax in the ways that the Anthrax in the letters were.
MWO: Adamski
Because it sounds like something straight outta Star Trek Voyager.
But I have a friend whose family works in the field and who worked with him. They insist he's innocent. Because of the conditions and restrictions placed on the handling of Anthrax (specifically the monitoring of the only area in his lab capable of handling powdered Anthrax) it is apparently almost impossible that he was guilty.
According to my grade 10 science class.... yes. If you put through either a negative or positive charge to all the particles, such that they all carry the same charge, then they will repel each other, much like two positive or two negative sides of magnets. When each particle is actively repelling each other, then they will dispurse much more readily.
MWO: Adamski
Or almost impossible that he acted alone.
The Amerithrax Directory (All The Court Documents) : http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/
one (me + the person in my dreams): . . .
I'm a little dream-self, short and stout.
I'm the other half of Bruce - when he lets me out.
When I get all steamed up, I don't pout.
I push Bruce aside, them I'm Free to run about!
Hickory dickory Doc - Doc Bruce ran up the clock.
But something then happened in very strange rhythm.
His other self went and exchanged places with him.
So now, please guess who
Is conversing with you.
Hickory dickory Doc!
Bruce and this other guy, sitting by some trees,
Exchanging personalities.
It's like having two in one.
Actually it's rather fun!"