If you're a blind straight guy, you should be perfectly happy to get blowjobs from guys because all that matters is that their dick isn't involved. Mouths are mouths, don't be a dirty homophobe.
It would make me homophobic if I somehow managed to get a blowjob from a guy, enjoyed it, then later discovered it was a guy. Because let's review: I enjoyed something, then upon discovering what it was, reviewed that event to say I did not enjoy it.
So enjoying something, then upon discovering what it was reviewing that event to say that you did not enjoy it is something you obviously think is silly and misguided.
From this we can conclude that you are a pedophile, or at least slightly pedophilic.
I don't think I need to spell out the logical reasoning.
Yes. Apparently from all those children that have sucked my dick that you somehow know about. Or something. Anyway I'm sure there are a lot of people out there unknowingly having sex with children.
You said that if you got a blowjob from a guy without knowing it was a guy, and liked it, then you're probably slightly gay.
It follows that you also believe that if you got a blowjob from a 12-year old without knowing it was a 12-year old, and liked it, then you're probably slightly pedophilic.
The point is, your logic is shitty.
You're right, I am wrong. The reality is simply: you like getting blowjobs.
Also, you might want to lower your age standards a little, because we used to marry girls off at 12. Frankly, unless we're talking pre-pubescence, it's not pedophilia.
EDIT: But also - the original example - would still make you homophobic. Because, on review, the operative problem you have with it is that it was a man.
Conversely, let's suppose it's 10 year old instead - well, the operative problem is not the sex, or the experience, it's the circumstance - namely, there is no way that person could've given consent.
The main difference is, it doesn't actually make any active statement about your sexuality - outside of this absurdly anonymous and boring blowjob, you're not actively seeking men since you're probably still not attracted to them based on male characteristics, and you're not actively seeking children for the same reason.
All this relates back to transgenders though, because in that case, you actively sought them, based on their female characteristics, and unless otherwise informed cannot detect a reason you're not attracted to them.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
See, that's fine, you're cool with my decision but it's not yours. You didn't use alarm bell setting words (Irrational is one, regardless of what you think it implies negative).
See, that's fine, you're cool with my decision but it's not yours. You didn't use alarm bell setting words (Irrational is one, regardless of what you think it implies negative).
This is the same with MTF for me, except in that case I'm not comfortable with the fact that they were originally born male.
This.
Also, a lot of us are talking out our asses (including me). I'm taking an "I wouldn't have sex with an MTF" position, but I wouldn't really know for sure until I was in the situation. I don't think I would, but who knows? Maybe I would. I'm not opposed to the idea of it, I just don't find it particularly attractive in theory.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand that after-the-fact knowledge can completely change someone's perception of something they had once enjoyed?
It's like having three years of happiness with a partner, and then discovering they were cheating on you the entire time. It colors every memory. The times didn't change, but the context did.
Even if there's nothing inherently "icky" about transgender, and a MtF body is perfectly undetectable, there can still be a repulsion because that sort of thing is unexpected and very rare. And probably a first for you.
I didn't come up with it, but I would consider age to be another "invisible trait". I've been physically attracted to high school girls once I was over 18, but there are laws and general "ickiness" about actually having sex with them.
That's not an invisible trait that has no effect on anyone. Going to jail is a pretty noticeable effect.
Going to jail isn't the only issue with age... at least not for me.
So if I say it's irrational but that's okay you guys see that as an alarm bell.
Wow.
Well yes because people generally imply things when they speak or listen. We live in a society where people won't generally speak their minds but instead imply things (for fear of getting hit, offending someone, getting flamed, what have you) and hence others will expect you to imply things.
Thus you have to expect that each word used carries negative or positive connotations.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
Most of the non-standard chromosomal options come with symptoms beyond different sets of bits. The photos of seen of Klinefelter's folks have a distinct look to them that I, personally, find aesthetically displeasing beyond what's between their legs.
Well yes because people generally imply things when they speak or listen. We live in a society where people won't generally speak their minds but instead imply things (for fear of getting hit, offending someone, getting flamed, what have you) and hence others will expect you to imply things.
Thus you have to expect that each word used carries negative or positive connotations.
Holy shit you must be a pain in the ass to talk to on a regular basis.
Wow. In your head, everyone else who disagrees with you is a massive bigot, right? Homophobic, racist, sexist pigs.
You haven't addressed anything people are actually saying for pages and pages.
No, the only label I can reliably give to someone simply for disagreeing with me is "idiot."
I don't (and can't, I imagine) know why the people in this thread who would refuse to have a relationship with someone purely due to the fact that they are trans feel the way they do. It certainly does look bigoted to me as I haven't seen a supporting argument that I find compelling.
If I have failed to address what people have been saying then I can only say that, despite my best efforts, I have misunderstood what they were saying.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
Klinefelter's syndrome, 47, XXY or XXY syndrome is a condition in which males have an extra X sex chromosome. While females have an XX chromosomal makeup, and males an XY, affected individuals have at least two X chromosomes and at least one Y chromosome.[1] Klinefelter's syndrome is the most common sex chromosome disorder[2] and the second most common condition caused by the presence of extra chromosomes. The condition exists in roughly 1 out of every 1,000 males. One in every 500 males has an extra X chromosome but does not have the syndrome.[3]
The principal effects are development of small testicles and reduced fertility. A variety of other physical and behavioral differences and problems are common, though severity varies and many boys and men with the condition have few detectable symptoms. The syndrome was named after Dr. Harry Klinefelter, an endocrinologist at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, who first described it in 1942.[4] Because of the extra chromosome, individuals with the condition are usually referred to as "XXY Males", or "47, XXY Males".[5]
Bama, I'd sincerely like to see your response to what I said last page. I generally find that we're pretty polar in viewpoints, and expecting that you'll disagree with me would sincerely and respectfully like to read it. Sorry to interrupt the current back and forth.
Actually, my concern is more with the objection to transgendered status rather than the disclosure of it. I agree that if you pick a person in the US at random they are very likely their biological gender and sex and that a person is not unreasonable to expect that to be the case.
Now, interestingly, it is also likely that a random US citizen is not a follower of a religion that forbids or discourages sex with transgendered people, so a transgendered person would be right to assume that the person they were talking to would not have any religious objection to having sex with him. Now, I don't know what the likelyhood would be of that person having another objection to having sex with a transgendered person, and I'd be interested to see data on that.
Christian, and I'm assuming the rest of the people of the Book, authorities absolutely view a MtF transgendered person as forbidden under the general rules for a guy to sleep with.
I didn't come up with it, but I would consider age to be another "invisible trait". I've been physically attracted to high school girls once I was over 18, but there are laws and general "ickiness" about actually having sex with them.
That's not an invisible trait that has no effect on anyone. Going to jail is a pretty noticeable effect.
Going to jail isn't the only issue with age... at least not for me.
I'd likely avoid it too because it could quite possibly screw them up depending on their age.
Which, again, is an effect.
I wouldn't, however, have an issue sleeping with a 21 year old woman that looked 17 whatever that might mean.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
By undeniably male I meant a body which everyone would accept as male - a typical male body. Penis, XY, the works. Then, we take it and modify it. Make it look like a female body. Why is that not considered a modified male body?
I tend to think of the body's "natural state" as what it would be without outside interference - in this case, surgery and hormone injections. If it would be a male body without that, it's male. Same goes for FTM - their body is still female.
XXY is tricky. Since their natural state is traits of both genders (right? I don't know a whole lot about it), I'd say they get to be either "both" or a third gender category. Like I said though, I don't know much about it so I don't want to make an absolute statement.
Well yes because people generally imply things when they speak or listen. We live in a society where people won't generally speak their minds but instead imply things (for fear of getting hit, offending someone, getting flamed, what have you) and hence others will expect you to imply things.
Thus you have to expect that each word used carries negative or positive connotations.
Holy shit you must be a pain in the ass to talk to on a regular basis.
Well, your sentence breaks down to the average person in the arguement against you as:
"I really think you're completely asinine for thinking these things but I won't say it and try to cover it up with saying "That's cool""
Regardless of whether or not you mean that.
And it's gone both ways, at the start of this thread I said "She isn't really a she" with the innocent intentions of "She wasn't born female". This sparked a heated debate where the other side (your current supported side) flipped out because we said "She isn't really a she" and we had no idea what the hell was wrong.
Also, when it happens in normal conversation I do what normal humans do, I get confused and worry if the person I was talking to was trying to hint at something or not or I take it as a negative/positive and usually I'm right.
Oh, I'm sorry electricitylikesme, I was seeking opinions, not the definition (of which I am aware). I should have said, "do you think an XXY person is male or female etc". Sorry, my bad.
Bama, I'd sincerely like to see your response to what I said last page. I generally find that we're pretty polar in viewpoints, and expecting that you'll disagree with me would sincerely and respectfully like to read it. Sorry to interrupt the current back and forth.
Actually, my concern is more with the objection to transgendered status rather than the disclosure of it. I agree that if you pick a person in the US at random they are very likely their biological gender and sex and that a person is not unreasonable to expect that to be the case.
Now, interestingly, it is also likely that a random US citizen is not a follower of a religion that forbids or discourages sex with transgendered people, so a transgendered person would be right to assume that the person they were talking to would not have any religious objection to having sex with him. Now, I don't know what the likelyhood would be of that person having another objection to having sex with a transgendered person, and I'd be interested to see data on that.
Christian, and I'm assuming the rest of the people of the Book, authorities absolutely view a MtF transgendered person as forbidden under the general rules for a guy to sleep with.
Cite? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I've spent most of my life around Christians and have never heard anything about transsexuals being mentioned in the bible. I'm also a little hesitant to plumb Google for info about this while at work.
Bama, I'd sincerely like to see your response to what I said last page. I generally find that we're pretty polar in viewpoints, and expecting that you'll disagree with me would sincerely and respectfully like to read it. Sorry to interrupt the current back and forth.
Actually, my concern is more with the objection to transgendered status rather than the disclosure of it. I agree that if you pick a person in the US at random they are very likely their biological gender and sex and that a person is not unreasonable to expect that to be the case.
Now, interestingly, it is also likely that a random US citizen is not a follower of a religion that forbids or discourages sex with transgendered people, so a transgendered person would be right to assume that the person they were talking to would not have any religious objection to having sex with him. Now, I don't know what the likelyhood would be of that person having another objection to having sex with a transgendered person, and I'd be interested to see data on that.
Christian, and I'm assuming the rest of the people of the Book, authorities absolutely view a MtF transgendered person as forbidden under the general rules for a guy to sleep with.
Cite? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I've spent most of my life around Christians and have never heard anything about transsexuals being mentioned in the bible. I'm also a little hesitant to plumb Google for info about this while at work.
I'm pretty certain most Christians would try to frame transgender as a form of homosexuality, since there isn't any mention of it specifically in the Bible.
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited October 2009
Well, there IS a specific mention in the bible:
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
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Why is it so difficult for people to understand that after-the-fact knowledge can completely change someone's perception of something they had once enjoyed?
It's like having three years of happiness with a partner, and then discovering they were cheating on you the entire time. It colors every memory. The times didn't change, but the context did.
Even if there's nothing inherently "icky" about transgender, and a MtF body is perfectly undetectable, there can still be a repulsion because that sort of thing is unexpected and very rare. And probably a first for you.
What turns you on and turns you off are often uncontrolled and how someone feels after a very heavy shift in perception can't be used as a tool to deep psychoanalysis outside of brief assumptions.
If you're dating someone with long, beautiful, flowing hair, and one day find out they're actually bald and suddenly feel completely turned off, then it's no big deal.
It's irrational in the sense that appearance in a relationship is less important than how someone makes you feel and what they bring to a relationship personality wise.
Unless you're looking strictly for a physical relationship in which case someone not meeting your physical needs tends to warrant not being interested.
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
They all wore sheets and sandals back then anyway.
"Peter, your sheet is hanging a bit TOO loose. We don't want to stone you."
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
And I'm pretty certain a woman's body is the ultimate form of "a woman's garment."
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
And I'm pretty certain a woman's body is the ultimate form of "a woman's garment."
ugh syndalis i am going to end you for posting this given what you said in [chat]
look at what you did
even if iglidante doesnt MEAN that a lot of people DO
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
And I'm pretty certain a woman's body is the ultimate form of "a woman's garment."
It really just goes back to the definition of 'woman' and 'man' again, though. If the transgender person is, at the level of the soul, female from birth then she was sinning until she surgically corrected herself.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand that after-the-fact knowledge can completely change someone's perception of something they had once enjoyed?
It's like having three years of happiness with a partner, and then discovering they were cheating on you the entire time. It colors every memory. The times didn't change, but the context did.
Even if there's nothing inherently "icky" about transgender, and a MtF body is perfectly undetectable, there can still be a repulsion because that sort of thing is unexpected and very rare. And probably a first for you.
What turns you on and turns you off are often uncontrolled and how someone feels after a very heavy shift in perception can't be used as a tool to deep psychoanalysis outside of brief assumptions.
If you're dating someone with long, beautiful, flowing hair, and one day find out they're actually bald and suddenly feel completely turned off, then it's no big deal.
It's irrational in the sense that appearance in a relationship is less important than how someone makes you feel and what they bring to a relationship personality wise.
Unless you're looking strictly for a physical relationship in which case someone not meeting your physical needs tends to warrant not being interested.
I can't say for sure where I stand on this, since it hasn't happened to me, but I can definitely see how even a loving relationship could be altered by the sudden realization that your girlfriend was MTF. Like it or not, it does change things. Which things? I guess that depends on the situation. But I really don't think many people would simply shrug it off without a shred of introspection or confusion.
Nah, I've just got this closing point which is relevant to the discussion (Actually, the discussion went to wording for a good while earlier).
In the end this is a new and sensitive subject for both sides, especially since it doesn't have just white and black now (ie: You don't have hate transgenders to not want to sleep with them) so people are going to have to be careful with what lingo they use until this settles down because it can spark uncessary arguements or debates over nothing.
That said the offended side also needs to learn how to take these terms with a bit of salt as, with all new things, most people aren't sure how to handle it.
It's like the whole "Gay" thing from the early millenium, first it meant "Stupid, irritating, etc" then it meant "Taboo slang for homosexual" then it finally rested on "Homosexuals and stupid irritating things. Nobody cares really anymore"
If you're dating someone with long, beautiful, flowing hair, and one day find out they're actually bald and suddenly feel completely turned off, then it's no big deal.
Except it's not. Similar to a degree, but definitely not the same. It'd be like if they were born bald and lived their lives a while like that, but with the help of science and medicine were able to get a hair transplant you couldn't notice.
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
And I'm pretty certain a woman's body is the ultimate form of "a woman's garment."
ugh syndalis i am going to end you for posting this given what you said in [chat]
look at what you did
even if iglidante doesnt MEAN that a lot of people DO
which is bad
It was meant to be a joke. I'm pretty certain there was no SRS in biblical times, apart from making yourself a eunuch.
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
(Once again, the possibly NSFW but it's a swimsuit model)
While I'll agree that she's a good example, I don't think her photo is especially good for your cause. I'm about as sympathetic to your viewpoint as I think it's possible for me to be but I think she looks like a dude outside of her chest. I mean, I've seen women who are born biologically female who are more mannish than she is, but she's got man-hands and a very mannish sort of face.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
And I'm pretty certain a woman's body is the ultimate form of "a woman's garment."
ugh syndalis i am going to end you for posting this given what you said in [chat]
look at what you did
even if iglidante doesnt MEAN that a lot of people DO
which is bad
Look, I felt bad doing it... but all the "bible doesn't talk about it" stuff forced me to google it, and after recovering from the brain bleed that I got reading the page this was on, I cross checked it with an online bible to be sure it was reasonably accurate, then posted it.
Whoever decided to not google this topic was a wiser man than me.
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Let's play Mario Kart or something...
If something is borderline NSFW, please link it. If you inline it then it ends up in our caches regardless of whether or not it's in a spoiler. For some people that is more of a concern than someone seeing it over our shoulders.
It's like the whole "Gay" thing from the early millenium, first it meant "Stupid, irritating, etc" then it meant "Taboo slang for homosexual" then it finally rested on "Homosexuals and stupid irritating things. Nobody cares really anymore"
Your understanding of the entymology of that term, and its underlying meaning, whether intended or not is incredibly lacking.
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
(Once again, the possibly NSFW swimsuit model)
If you look back a page, you'll see where I defined why I think that the altered male body is still male. Because of that, I would tend to think of that model as physically male, yes.
I'm not saying they are a man. I'm saying they are physically male. Very different.
Would I consider sex with that model to be "gay"? Like I said a little bit back, hard to say. In theory I want to say yes, but until I actually was in the situation it's hard to tell you how I'd feel about it.
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You're right, I am wrong. The reality is simply: you like getting blowjobs.
Also, you might want to lower your age standards a little, because we used to marry girls off at 12. Frankly, unless we're talking pre-pubescence, it's not pedophilia.
EDIT: But also - the original example - would still make you homophobic. Because, on review, the operative problem you have with it is that it was a man.
Conversely, let's suppose it's 10 year old instead - well, the operative problem is not the sex, or the experience, it's the circumstance - namely, there is no way that person could've given consent.
The main difference is, it doesn't actually make any active statement about your sexuality - outside of this absurdly anonymous and boring blowjob, you're not actively seeking men since you're probably still not attracted to them based on male characteristics, and you're not actively seeking children for the same reason.
All this relates back to transgenders though, because in that case, you actively sought them, based on their female characteristics, and unless otherwise informed cannot detect a reason you're not attracted to them.
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
It is irrational though.
And, as I've said in this very thread:
This.
Also, a lot of us are talking out our asses (including me). I'm taking an "I wouldn't have sex with an MTF" position, but I wouldn't really know for sure until I was in the situation. I don't think I would, but who knows? Maybe I would. I'm not opposed to the idea of it, I just don't find it particularly attractive in theory.
It's like having three years of happiness with a partner, and then discovering they were cheating on you the entire time. It colors every memory. The times didn't change, but the context did.
Even if there's nothing inherently "icky" about transgender, and a MtF body is perfectly undetectable, there can still be a repulsion because that sort of thing is unexpected and very rare. And probably a first for you.
Going to jail isn't the only issue with age... at least not for me.
Wow.
Well yes because people generally imply things when they speak or listen. We live in a society where people won't generally speak their minds but instead imply things (for fear of getting hit, offending someone, getting flamed, what have you) and hence others will expect you to imply things.
Thus you have to expect that each word used carries negative or positive connotations.
Most of the non-standard chromosomal options come with symptoms beyond different sets of bits. The photos of seen of Klinefelter's folks have a distinct look to them that I, personally, find aesthetically displeasing beyond what's between their legs.
Holy shit you must be a pain in the ass to talk to on a regular basis.
I don't (and can't, I imagine) know why the people in this thread who would refuse to have a relationship with someone purely due to the fact that they are trans feel the way they do. It certainly does look bigoted to me as I haven't seen a supporting argument that I find compelling.
If I have failed to address what people have been saying then I can only say that, despite my best efforts, I have misunderstood what they were saying.
Wiki:
Christian, and I'm assuming the rest of the people of the Book, authorities absolutely view a MtF transgendered person as forbidden under the general rules for a guy to sleep with.
I'd likely avoid it too because it could quite possibly screw them up depending on their age.
Which, again, is an effect.
I wouldn't, however, have an issue sleeping with a 21 year old woman that looked 17 whatever that might mean.
By undeniably male I meant a body which everyone would accept as male - a typical male body. Penis, XY, the works. Then, we take it and modify it. Make it look like a female body. Why is that not considered a modified male body?
I tend to think of the body's "natural state" as what it would be without outside interference - in this case, surgery and hormone injections. If it would be a male body without that, it's male. Same goes for FTM - their body is still female.
XXY is tricky. Since their natural state is traits of both genders (right? I don't know a whole lot about it), I'd say they get to be either "both" or a third gender category. Like I said though, I don't know much about it so I don't want to make an absolute statement.
Well, your sentence breaks down to the average person in the arguement against you as:
"I really think you're completely asinine for thinking these things but I won't say it and try to cover it up with saying "That's cool""
Regardless of whether or not you mean that.
And it's gone both ways, at the start of this thread I said "She isn't really a she" with the innocent intentions of "She wasn't born female". This sparked a heated debate where the other side (your current supported side) flipped out because we said "She isn't really a she" and we had no idea what the hell was wrong.
Also, when it happens in normal conversation I do what normal humans do, I get confused and worry if the person I was talking to was trying to hint at something or not or I take it as a negative/positive and usually I'm right.
But what if it was a 49 year old who looked 17?
Though this is all horribly off topic anyway so PM me if you want to keep talking about that.
Hur hur, you know what I meant. Natural state after birth.
I wouldn't know what to do with a person that naturally morphed from one sex to the other after birth.
Well then good sir, we have hit the fucking jack pot.
I'm pretty certain most Christians would try to frame transgender as a form of homosexuality, since there isn't any mention of it specifically in the Bible.
then again, I put this on the same page as stoning adulterers and women being cloistered away when it's there time of the month, but it is in there.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
What turns you on and turns you off are often uncontrolled and how someone feels after a very heavy shift in perception can't be used as a tool to deep psychoanalysis outside of brief assumptions.
If you're dating someone with long, beautiful, flowing hair, and one day find out they're actually bald and suddenly feel completely turned off, then it's no big deal.
It's irrational in the sense that appearance in a relationship is less important than how someone makes you feel and what they bring to a relationship personality wise.
Unless you're looking strictly for a physical relationship in which case someone not meeting your physical needs tends to warrant not being interested.
They all wore sheets and sandals back then anyway.
"Peter, your sheet is hanging a bit TOO loose. We don't want to stone you."
And I'm pretty certain a woman's body is the ultimate form of "a woman's garment."
ugh syndalis i am going to end you for posting this given what you said in [chat]
look at what you did
even if iglidante doesnt MEAN that a lot of people DO
which is bad
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
(Once again, the possibly NSFW swimsuit model)
http://www.crisalide-azionetrans.it/Something%20About%20Miriam.jpg
*changed to a link by request
It really just goes back to the definition of 'woman' and 'man' again, though. If the transgender person is, at the level of the soul, female from birth then she was sinning until she surgically corrected herself.
But I'm not Christian so who knows.
I can't say for sure where I stand on this, since it hasn't happened to me, but I can definitely see how even a loving relationship could be altered by the sudden realization that your girlfriend was MTF. Like it or not, it does change things. Which things? I guess that depends on the situation. But I really don't think many people would simply shrug it off without a shred of introspection or confusion.
In the end this is a new and sensitive subject for both sides, especially since it doesn't have just white and black now (ie: You don't have hate transgenders to not want to sleep with them) so people are going to have to be careful with what lingo they use until this settles down because it can spark uncessary arguements or debates over nothing.
That said the offended side also needs to learn how to take these terms with a bit of salt as, with all new things, most people aren't sure how to handle it.
It's like the whole "Gay" thing from the early millenium, first it meant "Stupid, irritating, etc" then it meant "Taboo slang for homosexual" then it finally rested on "Homosexuals and stupid irritating things. Nobody cares really anymore"
Except it's not. Similar to a degree, but definitely not the same. It'd be like if they were born bald and lived their lives a while like that, but with the help of science and medicine were able to get a hair transplant you couldn't notice.
It was meant to be a joke. I'm pretty certain there was no SRS in biblical times, apart from making yourself a eunuch.
While I'll agree that she's a good example, I don't think her photo is especially good for your cause. I'm about as sympathetic to your viewpoint as I think it's possible for me to be but I think she looks like a dude outside of her chest. I mean, I've seen women who are born biologically female who are more mannish than she is, but she's got man-hands and a very mannish sort of face.
Whoever decided to not google this topic was a wiser man than me.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Your understanding of the entymology of that term, and its underlying meaning, whether intended or not is incredibly lacking.
If you look back a page, you'll see where I defined why I think that the altered male body is still male. Because of that, I would tend to think of that model as physically male, yes.
I'm not saying they are a man. I'm saying they are physically male. Very different.
Would I consider sex with that model to be "gay"? Like I said a little bit back, hard to say. In theory I want to say yes, but until I actually was in the situation it's hard to tell you how I'd feel about it.