I am a cell and molecular biology major. Yesterday I went to work in my professor's lab, as I frequently do on Monday. He works with fish, and his research is fascinating. It has potential applications for use in things like refining chemotherapy. Plus, the fish are awesome. I got in early yesterday and ate my lunch at the table while watching some fish swim around in bags sitting on the table.
He came in a little while later and told me that I'd be cleaning fish tanks today. I said 'cool' as my back punched me in the face in advance. Everyone starts out cleaning stuff though, because you gotta start somewhere, especially as an undergrad.
I pointed to the fish on the table and smiled. "You guys breeding tonight?" They breed rather a lot of fish in this place.
"No," he said. "Actually, these guys are going in the homogenizer."
"Oh." You probably couldn't see it by looking at me, but my heart just fell through my feet.
I haven't really been the same since. Now, I'm not even a vegetarian. I probably kill a million insects by accident just walking to class. I know that everything dies, and that the research is important. What's more, I recognize that there is only so much cellular research you can do before you have to kill something, and this is my field of interest. But I don't like it. I don't know if I can do it. I don't know what I'm going to do about it. I knew what I was getting into, but I'm not comfortable with this.
I'm sure everybody has a hard time starting out. I'm sure nobody walks into work in the morning singing "Yeah baby, gonna kill the crap out of some animals today!" My dad was in research. He said the first time he had to put something down to study it was a frog for a lab, and it wasn't easy, but it was necessary, and you get used to it.
It's not a religious thing. My religion pretty much says that people come first, and helping them is the most important thing. It's not like I would be forcing rabbits to eat lipstick; this research, and most likely whatever other research I'll get myself into, has medical application. I love learning about this stuff and I know that this is what I want to do. And they're "just fish", but that's not a distinction I can easily make. I feel like it's wrong for me to do this, and it's got me really depressed and feeling kind of melodramatic.
Is this something I will get over? Should I get over it? Am I lacking perspective here? How do I make this kind of decision? I'm going to school for this.
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What's more important to you? The fish or the research?
A lot of people say "It's just fish" and that seems to be enough to get them along, but others have to actually believe that they're doing more good than bad by killing fish for research.
So, really, there's no easy answer.
"I can pick up this pencil tell you its name is steve and go like this /snaps pencil/ and part of you dies... People can connect with anything"
Sounds to me you've formed a little relationship with these guys. You have to clean their tanks, you have a closer connection. You may be viewing them as PETS rather than as parts of RESEARCH.
So, how do you put that shit on a resume?
Underdonk, your mother's way of looking at it, that it's how they're treated when they're alive that matters most, is a good way to see things, and that helps a bit.
Another part of the problem is what SideAffects said.. that I'm imagining myself in that place. I mean this guy just put a fish in a blender, basically.. what if I was that fish? What would it feel like, what would I see? He says that they're anesthetized to the point where they're gone by the time they get to that point, and somehow it's still a small comfort.
I would so much rather work with human tissue.
That actually had nothing to do with my personal research. It was a pretty cool experiment though.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_worm under "Research Use"
We basically had them produce green or red flourescent proteins. Imagine normal gray caterpillars being tomato red or cucumber green.
I've never worked with animals directly, I narrowly missed having to do so in my industrial placement when I would have probably coped. Now that I'm a good deal past that, it's slightly annoying that I still have that barrier that doesn't really exist for a good reason. I'm fine with it happening, and I don't mind other people doing it. Yet I still see good opportunities that I want to pass by because of this.
The flip side to this, is of course that there's many jobs where all the work is on cell lines, primary cells and tissues and more than a fair few things I've been involved with would make other people squeamish. So there's plenty of work out there in this field that doesn't involve going near an animal and the idea that sooner or later you'll have to kill something to learn more I don't think is correct. It just depends what path you go down.
I'm not sure what part of your degree you're in or even how the program is structured. But I would talk it through your professor first, even if it's just to make him aware that there's an offchance that this might turn into a problem. It's definitely not uncommon for people to be moved around projects even in companies that I've worked in where animal handling is an issue. More than likely after the first couple of times you'll see it as trivial.
Remember that fish don't think or feel like we do. They have no concept of "blender" or "death" and perceive reality much differently than humans. There's all sorts of research out there detailing this. Just don't read anything sponsored by PETA.
You think putting people in blenders is any easier?
it does get easier and i work regularly with cohorts of 50 something mice each.
Here is how i think about it. these animals were bred for research, otherwise they would have no point in existing and unless you are doing some pointless research any data you get from the animals should be helping whether it is knowledge base or trials etc. I personally try and treat all my animals with respect when i handle them, not throw them around try to keep noise down, not bang carrying containers around etc. i think its better for the animals which in turn is better for me since i get better results. a coworker of mine is not a good mouse handler and his animals are stressed off their gourd and his data is all over the place.
it is hard at first especially for undergrads. the first time i had to kill a lot of mice i had a huge pang of guilt. now i only get a blip when i have a huge sacrifice. and that is really when i deal with my mice that i have had a long time.
but keep in mind all molecular biologists don't do animal work. so if it is something you ultimately can't get over, there are plenty of other systems such as cell culture, yeasts bacteria etc. or you can work in industry and hae your own mouse group to handle the dirty work.
...and you felt great about it? I think you need to finish that post.
...and had to wipe the shit off?
You tried to imply compassion! That's not one of those things you can imply, man. For example: I held a baby while it choked to death about twenty minutes ago.
Man you are having way too much fun in H/A today.
I know! Thanatos is totally going to hit me up with an infraction by COB today. As we all know, he hates fun.
When I started working in this lab, the professor said that most of the work was actually done on embryos, which bothered me a hell of a lot less I think because they don't have developed nervous systems. He said they would rarely need to kill an adult fish.. I guess I just walked in on the wrong day.
The reason I would prefer to work with human tissue is that I think humans very rarely die to give it to you, and it's usually volunteered. I also would probably enjoy working with HeLa cells, which are basically immortal lumps of cancer. As far as I'm concerned, fish in a blender wasn't really part of the deal here.
But I mean, I'm going to be trying to do an independent study with this guy. He's working specifically with a certain DNA polymerase.. maybe he'll let me take apart some HeLa cells to look for it instead of working with the fish. >>
This is hilariously spectacular advice.
Seriously. If the number is too low, I'm a terrible person who enjoys throwing fish in blenders for the hell of it. If it's too high it doesn't matter because there is a number equal to the number of adorable fish carcasses it takes to buy my contentment.
I don't think you can win that scenario.
And I don't mean that in a mean way at all - my girlfriend works in a mouse lab, and I've worked in a couple different labs where other people are doing mouse stuff, and I just know that there's zero chance I could do what they do (partly because of what you mention, though probably more because I'm a bit squeamish about blood)
Drosophila is about my limit (though they're gross for different reasons), but there's no limit to what you can do in bacteria/yeast/worms/flies/human cell culture / tissue samples, and eventually you have to limit your choice of research based on SOMETHING, so a good first pass is always 'there's no way I could do this for years'
*edit
To expand more specifically, I have a BS in biology, am doing a PhD in genetics, and I think the last animal bigger than a C. elegans nematode worm that I've done anything with was when I pretended to participate in dissecting a fetal pig in AP Bio in 12th grade (maaybe discounting some zebrafish embryo lab class things in college). There's a ton of biology that you can do without having to do that kind of stuff (pretty much regardless of what field / kind of research you want to do, even), so I wouldn't worry about it too much
He also said that while, in my chosen field, there's no reason I should have to work with animals myself if I don't want to, I will need to deal with people every day who do, either to compare research or because they are somewhere along development process for whatever I'm working on, and I need to be able to interact with them without looking at them like they have two heads. That's not the problem I have, I just really don't want to kill anything with a nervous system myself.
The more I think about that, the worse it sounds, because I am not a vegetarian or anything and I have a leather coat and all that business, but that's a matter for me to work out and the crisis is, basically, averted.
Thanks to everyone who responded with their experiences; it really helped me figure things out. I was especially surprised to see that mts, who is always posting pictures of adorable kittens up for adoption, works with mice for a living. That one threw me. I guess it's probably not the end of the world that I like to make every new decision out to be.