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Solium Infernum

GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
edited January 2011 in Games and Technology
So, some of you may have read Tycho's post in which he mentions the new game by Cryptic Comet, Solium Infernum. You may also remember Cryptic as the folks behind the hyper-awesome Armageddon Empires, an old-school hex based post-apolocalytic strategy game where you can salvage an abandoned nuclear submarine and use the warhead to destroy Cthulhu. And that's not the coolest part. And the new game looks even better.

Solium Infernum casts you in the role of an Archfiend of Hell. You can design your Avatar with a wide mix of abilities to match your style. You can go for a warlord stomping everyone under boots of graven copper, a sorcorer type who like to hang out at home and blast enemies with columns of hellfire, a despot who uses his horrifying charisma to manipulate those around you. You gain tribute from your underlings, but instead of wood and gems you earn Hellfire and Darkness. Yes, Darkness is a critical resource in this game.

You send legions out to do bad thing, hire Praetors (i.e. heroes) to lead your legions or fight on your behalf in gladiatorial combat, cast Rituals, purchase artifacts and manuscripts of forbidden lore, and so forth.

The game is ultimately about Prestige which you earn through various evilness (winning combats, capturing Places of Power, making successful demands against enemies, etc.) and which is ultimately what you need to win. Oh, but you never know when the game will end, because it's semi-randomly determined.

The political aspect of the game is probably the most compelling. See, if you remember old-school D&D, Hell is Lawful Evil. There are rules. You can't just go romping into an enemy's land without good reason. You need an excuse to set up a Vendetta. So, you can go before the Infernal Conclave and insult your opponent. Oh, by the way, the Infernal Conclave is sort of like the UN, but less evil MIRITE?

Ahem.

Anyway, if your opponent acts like a little bitch and just accepts your insult, you take a nice piece of Prestige from him. If he mans up and refuses to accept it, he's required to declare Vendetta against you. That means you're now allowed to attack. Needless to say, make sure you can fight him.

There are other diplomatic options as well, such as demanding tribute from an enemy. The best part is, the more often you've successfully done so, the more you can demand. In other words, the game rewards you for being a bully.

Cryptic Comet is an awesome company, very responsive to customer questions, and they deserve your money. $30 bucks to seek the throne of Hell? Single player, hotseat, and Play-by-Email? Yes, please.

GoodOmens on
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Posts

  • Canada_jezusCanada_jezus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I'm going to buy this next weekend when i have money again, untill then i'm amusing myself with the demo.

    You know who I fucking hate? Pony.

    I don't know why, I just felt the need to say that.
  • JimpyJimpy Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Information seems to be practically impossible to find about this game, and is even slim on the main website.

  • Canada_jezusCanada_jezus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    http://www.crypticcomet.com/games/SI/Solium_Infernum.html

    You can download the manual bottom left and the forum has people talking about stuff.

    You know who I fucking hate? Pony.

    I don't know why, I just felt the need to say that.
  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I'm very tempted to buy it just on the basis of Armageddon Empires.

    ...

    I should actually go play some Armageddon Empires right now.


    EDIT: Oh, hey, Solium Infernum demo in the above link.

    This post was sponsored by LG.

    'Get your fucking finger on the wookie'
  • GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yep, the demo is turn-limited. I haven't gotten the point of actually eliminating an opponent yet because it can take so long to actually get to attack.

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  • ultimakayultimakay Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Thanks for pointing out the manual, I jumped into the demo only to flounder about. I did get a sense that the game has tremendous depth to it, and that once I learn all the mechanics it will be awesome.

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  • TodesbartTodesbart Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I would love to buy this game, but it's 21€ for us Europeans outside of the UK. Which is a little bit... expensive, I would say. I love the demo though, the politics in this game are awesome.

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  • TheOtherHorsemanTheOtherHorseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Oh, good. Someone made a thread for this.

    I have been waiting, frothingly, for this to come out for a loong time now. I bought it a few tens of minutes after it was released, and am just waiting to get back from the holidays to my desktop so I can do this thing up right. I've been mucking around with it on a family computer, but look forward to the chance to settle down and devote time to figuring it out and embarrassing myself in a PBEM.

  • Canada_jezusCanada_jezus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Todesbart wrote: »
    I would love to buy this game, but it's 21€ for us Europeans outside of the UK. Which is a little bit... expensive, I would say. I love the demo though, the politics in this game are awesome.

    Well i mean the price is the straight dollar conversion. Its not the typical indie game price true, but this is so much deeper than the typical indie game. There aren't many posts on it yet, but if you read the strategy forum on the main site you can definitely see what i mean. Like a huge post about duelling with your praetor which is like, just one of the ways you can use them. Its fantastic.

    You know who I fucking hate? Pony.

    I don't know why, I just felt the need to say that.
  • GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I'm going to try and avoid the forums for now, and figure this out on my own. I like that feeling of totally screwing something up and then puzzling out how to do it better.

    Until, at least, the frustration/fun ratio gets too high.

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  • TheOtherHorsemanTheOtherHorseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    GoodOmens wrote: »
    I'm going to try and avoid the forums for now, and figure this out on my own. I like that feeling of totally screwing something up and then puzzling out how to do it better.

    Until, at least, the frustration/fun ratio gets too high.

    If you say so. This game requires a great deal of subtle strategery, though, and some things in the forums are good to read just to fully understand how game elements interact. It'll probably be a while before I can be a non-idiot in this game, but I get back home on Saturday, so if anyone is interested in perhaps slapping together a PBEM, I'd be game.

  • kaortikaorti Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I've been mucking around with the demo, and having the occasional problem.

    Anyone know what determines the resource cost of diplomatic actions? I was trying to set up a vendetta against another archfiend, and my insults kept being ignored by the conclave because I hadn't committed enough resources. I've read the manual and I understand the numbers for the prestige costs, but there is hardly any mention of resources costs, and no numbers.

    Anyone know what I'm missing?

  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Does this game have actual real time multiplayer in addition to play by emails? I've been reading about this game and it seems very interesting. Doesn't seem like the most technically advanced game but still a lot of good ideas that are well implemented.

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  • TheOtherHorsemanTheOtherHorseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    kaorti wrote: »
    I've been mucking around with the demo, and having the occasional problem.

    Anyone know what determines the resource cost of diplomatic actions? I was trying to set up a vendetta against another archfiend, and my insults kept being ignored by the conclave because I hadn't committed enough resources. I've read the manual and I understand the numbers for the prestige costs, but there is hardly any mention of resources costs, and no numbers.

    Anyone know what I'm missing?

    On the diplomacy screen, you can pick hurl insult. Once you do, still within the diplomacy interface, you choose how much prestige to invest in your insult. This is where you decide if you're hurling a 5 prestige insult or a 7 prestige insult or whatever.

    So, the next screen that comes up is the standard "buy shit" interface, and I have no idea why they bother with it. It essentially functions as a confirmation screen. HOWEVER, if you're in that buy shit interface and you dial back the amount of prestige you already committed to, you'll get the "silly rabbit, dedicate enough resources to get this stuff done" message.

    tl;dr version: if you commit to a 5 prestige insult, you can't try to actually spend less on the very next screen

  • TheOtherHorsemanTheOtherHorseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Does this game have actual real time multiplayer in addition to play by emails? I've been reading about this game and it seems very interesting. Doesn't seem like the most technically advanced game but still a lot of good ideas that are well implemented.

    Depends on whether or not you consider "take turns using your computer with a group of friends" to be real time.

  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    wow

    this game is extremely complicated

    but i am so fascinated

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    alright i love this shit. i am buying it. we should start a few PA games.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • TeeSamTeeSam Registered User
    edited November 2009
    The rituals seem woefully underpowered for the cost in resources, attributes you have to have, and order time. In general. I can see specific strategies, like a Kingmaker win that might change that, but....Anyone disagree?

    Also, worth noting for people considering a purchase that while this game is complicated and deep, you can play through a game in 2-3 hours, which is super nice. A nice break from games like Civ 4 or Sword of the Stars that require between 5 and 30 hours for one playthrough. I do think the AI needs work or the difficulty needs to be ramped up somehow. Mostly I think it could stand to be a bit more aggressive.

    I'm trying for a win without powerful legions right now.

  • kaortikaorti Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    TeeSam wrote: »
    The rituals seem woefully underpowered for the cost in resources, attributes you have to have, and order time. In general. I can see specific strategies, like a Kingmaker win that might change that, but....Anyone disagree?

    Also, worth noting for people considering a purchase that while this game is complicated and deep, you can play through a game in 2-3 hours, which is super nice. A nice break from games like Civ 4 or Sword of the Stars that require between 5 and 30 hours for one playthrough. I do think the AI needs work or the difficulty needs to be ramped up somehow. Mostly I think it could stand to be a bit more aggressive.

    I'm trying for a win without powerful legions right now.


    I'm still mucking around in the demo, so I may be quite wrong, but I've found a fair number of situations in which access to rituals made something possible for me. I just stopped a game in which I managed to capture the city of Dis only because I was able to whittle its hit points down with wrath rituals. That +3 prestige per turn is really nice.

    I'll definitely be buying this game. Now I just need to get my friends to get it and arrange a big PBEM game.

  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Power Behind the Throne and King Maker seem so amusing for multiplayer games with more than two people. It adds a whole level of manipulation and second guessing outside the actual game, making it extremely fitting to the setting.

    This post was sponsored by LG.

    'Get your fucking finger on the wookie'
  • TodesbartTodesbart Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Yeah, those two traits are awesome. But they also require you to live through the whole game, plus spending a lot of points for one of them and manipulate everybody so the pawn you've selected wins with exactly that condition one of these traits demands.

    This game is so awesome, I want to buy it. But I'm on the fence about it, because as I said, I think it's pretty expensive. :(

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  • TeeSamTeeSam Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Todesbart wrote: »
    Yeah, those two traits are awesome. But they also require you to live through the whole game, plus spending a lot of points for one of them and manipulate everybody so the pawn you've selected wins with exactly that condition one of these traits demands.

    This game is so awesome, I want to buy it. But I'm on the fence about it, because as I said, I think it's pretty expensive. :(

    Well, I can tell you, having done the game mechanics for a turn-based strategy game (commercial failure) that an absolute shit-ton of love and work went into this. It's pretty niche, so he won't sell too many copies. It's a really reasonable price if you can afford it. Also, it probably won't go down much over time, so not much reason to hold off. Armageddon Empires--also great--is still $30, although there's a package deal for both of them.)

    The only thing that gets me is the UI is lazy. Everything about the way it's designed makes his job much easier, but makes the user's life harder. It's also disruptive, which makes it harder to appreciate how pretty it is. You're dealing with jumping through UI hoops..and if you didn't have to do that, playing it could be absolutely magical. Huge improvement over AE, but I think he could get a ton more sales by improving it further.

    Just won a game doing Kingmaker. The victory condition of winning by prestige is actually the "standard" win and it's surprisingly easy to manipulate things early on to really help insure that things go well.

    Also, don't even try playing with a charisma of 0 :) That first point makes an enormous difference.

  • KesterKester Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    It'd be interesting trying to play as a Kingmaker, but from the point of view of your target it utterly sucks. It basically amounts to "Pick another player. That player cannot win the game." It needs another condition attached to make it less harsh on the target. The designer has pretty much admitted that he took the idea from the Bene Gesserit in the Dune board game, where the power was "Pick a player and a turn. If that player wins on that turn you win instead", which is a lot more reasonable. Given there are a lot more turns in SI, maybe a 5-turn window you have to hit? Of course, the power should be cheaper with that stipulation too.

    Overall, this seems like one I might come back to in 6 months and see how patches have changed the game for the better. At the moment, there are too many gripes to pay £20 for this: dubious AI, an incredibly clunky interface (all actions, even common ones, take about 5 clicks to execute), random resource acquisition (if you don't get any souls, you're pretty screwed), and a general feeling that the different paths to victory available haven't been balanced well. Essentially it feels like the game needed 6 months more playtesting, and given the multiplayer focus I'll be surprised if it doesn't get 'broken' by players.

    It does have some really good ideas. I like the diplomacy aspect a lot: the formality of the thing means it might be one of the first games to do politicking well in a multiplayer setting, which is something I've been wanting forever (compare to Civ where you can break any agreement at a moment's notice, so they mean nothing). The idea of settling disputes by single combat instead of war is neat as well, as is the fact that you can frame others for your crimes. It just all needs a bit more cooking to be ready.

  • alset85alset85 Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Kester wrote: »
    It basically amounts to "Pick another player. That player cannot win the game."

    Not really. You can watch if someone is rooting for you, use a prophecy ritual to see their perks and eliminate the kingmaker or excommunicate them so they can't steal your win.

    override said: I can't wait until Toady causes pressurized water to be able to actually damage things. I want to hit goblins with a shit cannon of such pressure that the meat is ripped from their bones

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I tried to play the demo, with the manual open, but it seems to have the worst interface I've ever seen.

    Am I missing something? I find a professional game having a UI like this nowadays to be shocking. I had to look through the manual to find out how to bid on something.

    Also I'm finding it quite hard to get any feel for what orders to start with.

    It's really quite vexing.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I tried to play the demo, with the manual open, but it seems to have the worst interface I've ever seen.

    Am I missing something? I find a professional game having a UI like this nowadays to be shocking. I had to look through the manual to find out how to bid on something.

    Also I'm finding it quite hard to get any feel for what orders to start with.

    It's really quite vexing.

    Good orders to start with:

    1) Move your legions around. You want to capture territory as fast as possible so that you can move around the map without restriction, and you get prestige for the territory you've captured at the end of the game. Move towards a Place of Power and try to get at least one or two hexes adjacent to it in your control, so that you can seize them later. (This is all because you can't move through enemy territory until you use political maneuvering to start a vendetta or feud, which takes a long time usually).

    2) Demand tribute. Do this a lot. This is the central means by which you gain resources, and you want resources to buy more units, buy artifacts to buff them, buy praetors for buffs and single combat, buy stat upgrades for your archdemon, buy combat cards for temporary combat buffs, etc etc - tribute cards are everything. That's why a high Charisma archdemon, who can draw and pick more tribute cards when he demands tribute, is very powerful.

    3) Bid on legions, or on artifacts that will give movement bonuses or similar. You want to seize more territory so that you have more options later. With another legion or two, you'll be able to do that more quickly. This will take a few turns of demanding tribute, usually.

    4) Cast rituals that give you info on your opponents. Just to see what their stats are and what they're capable of.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    in fact, let me just give a quick summary of your basic goals, and how to reach them, in a game of Solium Infernum, as I understand it:

    1) Gain Prestige.

    Prestige is basically Victory Points. At the end of the game, whoever has the most Prestige wins. There are two other victory conditions - political manipulation by using certain perks, and conquering and holding Pandemonium, the capital of Hell, for five turns. The most common way to win, though, is Prestige. If anyone has a Prestige lead, they are probably winning.

    Prestige is also a resource that you use for diplomatic actions, basically in the form of a wager on the outcome. You can also spend it on certain very rare things in the Bazaar.

    How do you get Prestige?
    • Capture and hold Places of Power. The initial capture gets you a flat amount, and every turn thereafter you will gain more.
    • Win battles. Every victory nets you some Prestige.
    • Diplomacy. Insult somebody and they must either give you Prestige or start a fight, and usually it's easier to just suck it up and give up the Prestige.
    • Complete your public objective. At the end of the game, if you've completed your deadly sin objective, you get a nice chunk of Prestige. This gives you something to work towards as a general strategy.-Complete secret objectives. There are a whole bunch of these.
    • Hold lots of territory (Cantonies or whatever) at the end of the game. Every hex you hold gives you 1 Prestige at game end. To capture a territory, move one of your legions into or through it - and keep in mind you can't move through enemy territory unless you've started a fight with them.

    2) Gain Tribute resources.

    Tribute comes in four forms: Souls, Ichor, Hellfire, and Darkness. That's in order of most to least common, usually.

    Tribute is your main resource - it's your gold, your lumber, your crystal, your vespene gas, whatever. Basically, all the best orders require Tribute to carry out - if you want to buy more legions, buy more artifacts, cast a Ritual, make a combat card, upgrade your archdemon, whatever, you need Tribute.

    How do you get Tribute?
    • Demand tribute order. This is your main resource gathering method. You can do it more than once per turn. The more you do it, though, the more your resource quality will gradually drop. However, high Charisma means better Tribute cards, and more of them to pick from. You should be demanding tribute pretty much all the time unless you have something better to do.
    • Demand tribute from other players through diplomacy. This isn't nearly as effective, but it's more likely to start some shit than hurling insults. You can only usually get 1 to 3 tribute cards this way.

    3) Build your army.

    Even non-military archdemons are well-advised to keep an army around. Usually there's no cost to having as many armies as possible beyond the inital bid for each legion. You are limited in how many armies you can have at once by your Martial stat, and usually it's somewhere between 2 and 5.

    Legions capture territory for you, which is vital. They capture Places of Power as well, which is the main early-game goal. They also defend you from other players and their attempts to take your shit - a player will be less likely to insult or demand things from you if you have a big army on his borders, because if you tell him to fuck off it gives you the right to invade.

    So make sure you have plenty of legions, and that your legions are pumped up to be effective when necessary.

    How do you build a strong army?
    • Bid on legions in the Bazaar. You have to pay the minimum cost in Tribute cards, but if someone else is bidding as well you need to beat their score (or tie it, if you're higher ranked as an archdemon). The best bidding cards are Souls, since they count for two points of bidding superiority. If you think there might be competition, throw a couple extra Souls in there.
    • Attach Praetors to lead your legions. Praetors are hero characters who can be bought in the Bazaar, and they can be attached to a legion to give it stat buffs.
    • Attach Artifacts to your legions. Artifacts can be purchased in the bazaar, and usually give some neat bonuses to legions they're attached to.
    • Attach Combat Cards to your legions. Combat cards stay attached until the legion fights, then they're used up and disappear. They're custom-made bonuses and debuffs that you can craft using Tribute, and the higher your Martial Skill the better the cards you can make.
    • Keep in mind that if your Places of Power are being attacked, you can attach all those attachments to such locations as well, to give them bonuses in combat.
    • There is a limit on how many attachments a legion can have, and it depends on the legion's level. A level 1 legion can only have one attachment, and a level 3 legion can have two - and two attachments can make a huge, huge difference in combat effectiveness.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I find early on it's a good idea, when looking over Tribute choices, to grab Ichor when you can. I always seem to be short on Ichor, and you'll need it to get Legions and Praetors.

    I like grabbing a strong Praetor early because it lets me bully the other Archdemons. You can throw Demands around and, if they don't like it, challenge them to a single combat Vendetta. Usually they'll back off if you have a big, bad Praetor around, and it's basically free Presige. Make sure when you buy a Praetor that you take a close look at his stats and abilities...there are some that are great at single combat but suck as a leader, and vice versa.

    Also, when you get an Event card, make sure you take a look at what it is. I find it easy to forget, and they can be really helpful. Two nice early game Events are the tribute windfall and the one which upgrades a Praetor (sorry, I forget the names).

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  • Canada_jezusCanada_jezus Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I had an event that called for a tournament of champions, dudes who didn't join in get murdered. So i saved up a turn or two and bought the biggest badass praetor there was. 13 attack and like 2 luck. HAH.

    only one other lord was even able to send a praetor and that one promptly got chopped in FUCKING TWAIN. Massive Massive prestige gain, had like 50 nearest rival had 20.

    You know who I fucking hate? Pony.

    I don't know why, I just felt the need to say that.
  • SpindriftSpindrift Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Is the AI strong enough that playing single-player is worthwhile?

  • beta.lyraebeta.lyrae Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Good game. I picked up the combo deal. I wouldn't be able to take more than a turn a day, but I'd be up for a PBEM game. Though, at that rate I imagine it would take forever.

  • ShivaXShivaX Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I'd be all over a PBEM game if one gets rolling.

    I'm loving this thing.

  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Spindrift wrote: »
    Is the AI strong enough that playing single-player is worthwhile?

    The game itself is brilliant. The AI is... torpid. It's not dumb, it just isn't anywhere near aggressive enough to compete with a human player.

    This leads to the single-player campaign feeling very easy. Still fun, but just very little challenge. Haven't played any multiplayer yet, but it seems like that's very much where it's at.

    nemosig.png
  • TeeSamTeeSam Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Spindrift wrote: »
    Is the AI strong enough that playing single-player is worthwhile?

    I'd say so. It does much better with the maximum number of opponents, I've figured out (the strategies do change). And of course, one AI opponent will tend to get a lucky start if you have enough. You can also not spend all your Avatar points at the beginning for more challenge.

    Competent, but definitely not as good as a good human player.

  • alset85alset85 Registered User
    edited November 2009
    Spindrift wrote: »
    Is the AI strong enough that playing single-player is worthwhile?

    The game itself is brilliant. The AI is... torpid. It's not dumb, it just isn't anywhere near aggressive enough to compete with a human player.

    This leads to the single-player campaign feeling very easy. Still fun, but just very little challenge. Haven't played any multiplayer yet, but it seems like that's very much where it's at.

    The AI works a lot better on a normal or small map with maximum opponents. The dev said that boosting their aggressiveness made them reckless and easy to dupe into losing all their stuff, so that's why they're a bit cautious.

    Anyway I'm sure support for the game will be forthcoming and Vic is gonna keep working on making the AI competitive.

    ed:what TeeSam said

    override said: I can't wait until Toady causes pressurized water to be able to actually damage things. I want to hit goblins with a shit cannon of such pressure that the meat is ripped from their bones

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    So who is interested in a PBEM campaign for this game? We've got me and ShivaX who have stated interest, is there anyone else?

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • TheOtherHorsemanTheOtherHorseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    So who is interested in a PBEM campaign for this game? We've got me and ShivaX who have stated interest, is there anyone else?

    I'd be up for it.

  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    So that's three - surely more of you guys are down for a PBEM campaign. This is really what the game is all about. Single player is really easy, and I'm sure multi will be violently difficult.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User
    edited November 2009
    I would be so up for it if I had the full version. <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Make sure you guys do turn-by-turn reports, preferably with screens. This could become a really cool collaborative Let's Play, and hopefully also bring more people into the game.

    nemosig.png
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I would be so up for it if I had the full version. <img class=" title=":cry:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

    Make sure you guys do turn-by-turn reports, preferably with screens. This could become a really cool collaborative Let's Play, and hopefully also bring more people into the game.

    It'd be difficult to do that over time, since revealing our plans on PA would reveal them to our opponents :P

    It's not a bad idea though.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
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