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Wii Concerns
AlejandroDaJ
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I've been a Nintendo fan all my life, except for that one generation where I bought a Sega Genesis because I was an even BIGGER X-Men fan (I didn't know about the SNES Apocalypse game until later). Ever since I was in elementary school, it's been a key portion of my life to save up a good chunk of money, buy the Nintendo system in question (NES, N64, Gamecube), and amass a collection of quality games.
The Wii was no different. It was even easier for me this time because, by now, I've graduated college and was gainfully employed. There was no way in Hell I was gonna miss out on the Wii. I even subjected myself to my first-ever console campount (a piddling 9-hours) just so that I could play Twilight Princess ASAP.
4.5 months later, my Wii is only on when I'm playing GC games. I haven't beaten Twilight Princess. I haven't beaten Red Steel. My interest in Rayman lasted about 1 week, and only because the excuse for drinking came first and the game itself came second. What the hell happened to me?
---
I ask that question because I considered myself above the console-vs-console fanboy fray and don't want to be addressing this topic on that kind of battleground. Nintendo used to be my go-to company for sheer fun and quality of experience. Nintendo single-handedly started my love of video games which led to my love of modding. But I finally feel like the Wii has ended my love affair with them.
So, why am I waggled out? I have no idea, and I hope that I'm not actually waggled out. I had a complete and utter blast with Wii Sports like everyone else, and have that same anecdotal story that everyone else has about cross-generation appeal. (I was at home in RI visiting my family for Christmas. Brought the Wii home. I come back from a party, and my brother says, "You'll never guess what I caught mom and dad doing." Horrible thoughts came to mind, but then my brother quickly added, "Playing Wii Tennis. They even made their own Miis.") Even after the first few levels of Red Steel and the first six or seven dungeons of Zelda (I haven't gone back to knock off the Sky Temple boss yet), I could even begin to feel fanboi-ism creeping up on me. I was indifferent to the 360 (and we still get a bit of mileage out of my roommate's original Xbox) and had this new, strange antipathy to the PS3 that is hardly different from what almost everyone on this board feels, except I didn't feel the need to go spouting off about it. A smile used to come to my face when I heard about Ubisoft's energetic backing of the Wii and EA's new Wii-only design studio.
And then I just stopped playing the damn thing. I pop in X-Men Legends every so often, and I'm currently doing my first run-through of RE4, but that's just for the Cube BC. After the lackluster post-Christmas months, I grew wary of buying, so I started a Gamefly account just to test-rent and find out what Wii games were worth it, and what weren't. First and second on my list were Sonic and the Secret Rings and SSX Blur. Sonic has never inspired so much cursing in my apartment. As an amateur modder, I categorize it as "moments of sheer brilliance hamstrung by infuriating controls and design decisions." That experience alone caused me to push SSX Blur back down the queue in favor of RE4 (which I'm having a blast with). I look at my 25-item queue right now and I see mostly GC, Xbox, DS, and GBA games that I've missed over the years. I think there's only 3 or 4 Wii games on there. And I don't anticipate adding more.
---
Sorry, I should get to the point. I fear for the Wii's viability as a decent gaming platform. And yes, I'm well aware of all the arguments in favor of it. The cross-generational appeal, the ease and cheapness of development, rampant popularity and a rapidly growing install base, etc. All well and good. But I'm older (now), and wiser (I hope), and I'm wondering: what's in it for ME?
Hardcore, I'm not. I tried to be hardcore with my PC, and now just find myself lamenting the ever-true axioms of instant obsolescence. I figured it would be a good idea to shift away from PC gaming and go back to consoles, and, OH HEY I LOVE NINTENDO, WHY THE HECK NOT? Turns out, I'm seeing a lot of ports and half-assed games with dodgy motion control and nothing worth spending $50 on. I know that many of you find little argument with motion controls on some of the games (I *am* looking forward to trying Blur due to the vast gulf of "Love it!" or "Hate it!" responses to the controls), but I think your responses are whitewashing a critical issue of the Wii: it's all about the controls. With dual analogs, you've got button mapping, maybe some sensitivity issues, and that's about it. Now, suddenly, as some very smart posters have asserted, game developers have to anticipate what each individual user thinks the natural motion should be to elicit a response in-game. For Wii Tennis and Bowling, they hit that out of the park. For other motions, especially ones that don't translate 1:1? I'm hearing "not so much," and I'm fearing that in many cases Wii users are asking for developers to be behavioral psychologists and predict how umpteen million users should waggle in common.
And then there's the CPU and GPU. Lamecube 1.5, duct tape, etc. etc., you know the accusations. For the most part, I could give a shit. I mod for Half-Life 2 and formerly for Half-Life 1, so I know what it's like to work within graphical limitations. I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and even then, you can still crank out some really gorgeous eye-candy.
So what's bugging me? This: can anyone address the accusation I heard that the Wii's CPU (and perhaps the GPU as well?) spends around 50% of its cycles collecting and interpreting signals from the motion controls? Granted, it's only a rumor I heard in maybe one or two places, but it made a hell of alot of sense. Why are we seeing so many PS2-style graphics instead of GC or Xbox-style graphics? "Cheaper to port," didn't make a lot of sense. But perhaps this does. And if it does, it might mean that the Wii is looking at a performance wall. That's unnerving to me as an early adopter because it doesn't necessarily mean that I can look forward to better graphics in the next couple of years of the Wii's lifetime. It might mean that graphics will have to consistently play second fiddle to motion control.
I can hit on my last two concerns in a really quick fashion. The first is developer laziness. The point? Developers and publishers are corporations, corporations are capitalistic, and capitalists want to make money as fast as possible with as little overhead as possible. Verdict? Few new IPs, lots of ports and half-assedness. Situation grows bleaker if they look to the 360 and/or PS3 as true continuation of next-gen.
Online play. Friend codes are horseshit. I remember when the Wii Friend Code rumor broke on these boards, and was shocked by the vast amount of cautious optimism or people pretending everything was all well and good. As a PC gamer, jeebus, it isn't all well and good. Forget comparing the Wii's online capabilities to Live. Yes, I know Live is paid for. Naw, rather, compare it to Steam. Should we really believe that Nintendo and Gamespy's total online infrastructure is less than what Valve can put on the table? Or that entering long strings of numbers ad nauseum is really viable (WE MUST PROTECT THE CHILDREN ETC)? I've got a job now, I'm busy, I look for ways to alleviate interference and obstacles, not "things I can put up with." Someone please tell me just what the likelihoods of the Wii's future online capabilities are.
---
After hearing about all the great games that hand landed on the 360 or were forthcoming, I tested the waters, finding out how much I could get if I tried selling my used Wii. Obviously, most of my friends started champing at the bit. Little surprise as to why.
But I've never sold anything in my life, and I'm loath to give up on any platform. I really don't see myself selling the Wii. Disappointment aside, I can't see myself turning my back on franchises like Mario and Zelda (Metroid Prime 1 didn't do it for me. Didn't try 2.), especially because the argument of forthcoming titles and a DS-like renaissance is a viable one. I don't plan on saying, "Fuck you, Nintendo."
I am strongly considering picking up a 360 soon and turning it into my main platform. I want the new, strong IPs (especially the ones that my PC can't handle. Catch on fire and die, Microsoft.) I want the graphics (sure, I only have a 35" SDTV. Doesn't mean that the increased polycounts and texture resolutions won't come across). I want Live (my apartment is too far away from civilization to play against anyone but my roommate). Mostly, I want an advanced system that will stand as a next-gen pinnacle instead of something I'm going to second-guess for the next few years. I'll be getting a tax return soon, and maybe I'll take that straight to Best Buy.
Well, this isn't supposed to be about the 360 itself. This is about the Wii and its viability as a platform. Please, please, PLEASE, I don't want this to become a fanboy argument, I swear to God. I want an honest discussion of the Wii's pros and cons and a decent discussion on what it's outlook is like.
Especially since it may very well impact what I do with my tax return.
:...:
...
TL;DR: I'm afraid the Wii's going to be hamstrung as a next-gen platform due to Nintendo and designers/publisher's decisions. Yea or nay?
The Wii was no different. It was even easier for me this time because, by now, I've graduated college and was gainfully employed. There was no way in Hell I was gonna miss out on the Wii. I even subjected myself to my first-ever console campount (a piddling 9-hours) just so that I could play Twilight Princess ASAP.
4.5 months later, my Wii is only on when I'm playing GC games. I haven't beaten Twilight Princess. I haven't beaten Red Steel. My interest in Rayman lasted about 1 week, and only because the excuse for drinking came first and the game itself came second. What the hell happened to me?
---
I ask that question because I considered myself above the console-vs-console fanboy fray and don't want to be addressing this topic on that kind of battleground. Nintendo used to be my go-to company for sheer fun and quality of experience. Nintendo single-handedly started my love of video games which led to my love of modding. But I finally feel like the Wii has ended my love affair with them.
So, why am I waggled out? I have no idea, and I hope that I'm not actually waggled out. I had a complete and utter blast with Wii Sports like everyone else, and have that same anecdotal story that everyone else has about cross-generation appeal. (I was at home in RI visiting my family for Christmas. Brought the Wii home. I come back from a party, and my brother says, "You'll never guess what I caught mom and dad doing." Horrible thoughts came to mind, but then my brother quickly added, "Playing Wii Tennis. They even made their own Miis.") Even after the first few levels of Red Steel and the first six or seven dungeons of Zelda (I haven't gone back to knock off the Sky Temple boss yet), I could even begin to feel fanboi-ism creeping up on me. I was indifferent to the 360 (and we still get a bit of mileage out of my roommate's original Xbox) and had this new, strange antipathy to the PS3 that is hardly different from what almost everyone on this board feels, except I didn't feel the need to go spouting off about it. A smile used to come to my face when I heard about Ubisoft's energetic backing of the Wii and EA's new Wii-only design studio.
And then I just stopped playing the damn thing. I pop in X-Men Legends every so often, and I'm currently doing my first run-through of RE4, but that's just for the Cube BC. After the lackluster post-Christmas months, I grew wary of buying, so I started a Gamefly account just to test-rent and find out what Wii games were worth it, and what weren't. First and second on my list were Sonic and the Secret Rings and SSX Blur. Sonic has never inspired so much cursing in my apartment. As an amateur modder, I categorize it as "moments of sheer brilliance hamstrung by infuriating controls and design decisions." That experience alone caused me to push SSX Blur back down the queue in favor of RE4 (which I'm having a blast with). I look at my 25-item queue right now and I see mostly GC, Xbox, DS, and GBA games that I've missed over the years. I think there's only 3 or 4 Wii games on there. And I don't anticipate adding more.
---
Sorry, I should get to the point. I fear for the Wii's viability as a decent gaming platform. And yes, I'm well aware of all the arguments in favor of it. The cross-generational appeal, the ease and cheapness of development, rampant popularity and a rapidly growing install base, etc. All well and good. But I'm older (now), and wiser (I hope), and I'm wondering: what's in it for ME?
Hardcore, I'm not. I tried to be hardcore with my PC, and now just find myself lamenting the ever-true axioms of instant obsolescence. I figured it would be a good idea to shift away from PC gaming and go back to consoles, and, OH HEY I LOVE NINTENDO, WHY THE HECK NOT? Turns out, I'm seeing a lot of ports and half-assed games with dodgy motion control and nothing worth spending $50 on. I know that many of you find little argument with motion controls on some of the games (I *am* looking forward to trying Blur due to the vast gulf of "Love it!" or "Hate it!" responses to the controls), but I think your responses are whitewashing a critical issue of the Wii: it's all about the controls. With dual analogs, you've got button mapping, maybe some sensitivity issues, and that's about it. Now, suddenly, as some very smart posters have asserted, game developers have to anticipate what each individual user thinks the natural motion should be to elicit a response in-game. For Wii Tennis and Bowling, they hit that out of the park. For other motions, especially ones that don't translate 1:1? I'm hearing "not so much," and I'm fearing that in many cases Wii users are asking for developers to be behavioral psychologists and predict how umpteen million users should waggle in common.
And then there's the CPU and GPU. Lamecube 1.5, duct tape, etc. etc., you know the accusations. For the most part, I could give a shit. I mod for Half-Life 2 and formerly for Half-Life 1, so I know what it's like to work within graphical limitations. I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and even then, you can still crank out some really gorgeous eye-candy.
So what's bugging me? This: can anyone address the accusation I heard that the Wii's CPU (and perhaps the GPU as well?) spends around 50% of its cycles collecting and interpreting signals from the motion controls? Granted, it's only a rumor I heard in maybe one or two places, but it made a hell of alot of sense. Why are we seeing so many PS2-style graphics instead of GC or Xbox-style graphics? "Cheaper to port," didn't make a lot of sense. But perhaps this does. And if it does, it might mean that the Wii is looking at a performance wall. That's unnerving to me as an early adopter because it doesn't necessarily mean that I can look forward to better graphics in the next couple of years of the Wii's lifetime. It might mean that graphics will have to consistently play second fiddle to motion control.
I can hit on my last two concerns in a really quick fashion. The first is developer laziness. The point? Developers and publishers are corporations, corporations are capitalistic, and capitalists want to make money as fast as possible with as little overhead as possible. Verdict? Few new IPs, lots of ports and half-assedness. Situation grows bleaker if they look to the 360 and/or PS3 as true continuation of next-gen.
Online play. Friend codes are horseshit. I remember when the Wii Friend Code rumor broke on these boards, and was shocked by the vast amount of cautious optimism or people pretending everything was all well and good. As a PC gamer, jeebus, it isn't all well and good. Forget comparing the Wii's online capabilities to Live. Yes, I know Live is paid for. Naw, rather, compare it to Steam. Should we really believe that Nintendo and Gamespy's total online infrastructure is less than what Valve can put on the table? Or that entering long strings of numbers ad nauseum is really viable (WE MUST PROTECT THE CHILDREN ETC)? I've got a job now, I'm busy, I look for ways to alleviate interference and obstacles, not "things I can put up with." Someone please tell me just what the likelihoods of the Wii's future online capabilities are.
---
After hearing about all the great games that hand landed on the 360 or were forthcoming, I tested the waters, finding out how much I could get if I tried selling my used Wii. Obviously, most of my friends started champing at the bit. Little surprise as to why.
But I've never sold anything in my life, and I'm loath to give up on any platform. I really don't see myself selling the Wii. Disappointment aside, I can't see myself turning my back on franchises like Mario and Zelda (Metroid Prime 1 didn't do it for me. Didn't try 2.), especially because the argument of forthcoming titles and a DS-like renaissance is a viable one. I don't plan on saying, "Fuck you, Nintendo."
I am strongly considering picking up a 360 soon and turning it into my main platform. I want the new, strong IPs (especially the ones that my PC can't handle. Catch on fire and die, Microsoft.) I want the graphics (sure, I only have a 35" SDTV. Doesn't mean that the increased polycounts and texture resolutions won't come across). I want Live (my apartment is too far away from civilization to play against anyone but my roommate). Mostly, I want an advanced system that will stand as a next-gen pinnacle instead of something I'm going to second-guess for the next few years. I'll be getting a tax return soon, and maybe I'll take that straight to Best Buy.
Well, this isn't supposed to be about the 360 itself. This is about the Wii and its viability as a platform. Please, please, PLEASE, I don't want this to become a fanboy argument, I swear to God. I want an honest discussion of the Wii's pros and cons and a decent discussion on what it's outlook is like.
Especially since it may very well impact what I do with my tax return.
:...:...
TL;DR: I'm afraid the Wii's going to be hamstrung as a next-gen platform due to Nintendo and designers/publisher's decisions. Yea or nay?
AlejandroDaJ on
0
Posts
Also more 2d style games would be a wonderful thing.
Its still a new new idea, the potential for this system is what makes me glad I bought it. That and how awesome Wii sports is and how much I love playing Tenkaichi 2. It is in a slump of alright games, but I think the show stoppers are going to be seriously amazing..
Paper Mario comes out Tuesday, so that'll be good.
Even if I just pick up the big 1st and 3rd title games, plus the Virtual Console, I'll be happy with my investment. Owning a console just to play the big N's releases (Mario, Zelda and Metroid) seems totally worth it to me.
Every. Time.
"Waggled out" is a tired, old forum meme that really needs to die. Would you say you're "D-padded out" or "tired of using the analog stick"? What you're tired of are launch titles, which have always been for the most part fairly simple, straightforward but ultimately disposable or eventually surpassed by future titles. This holds true for any console, Nintendo or otherwise (with a handful of exceptions).
On the one hand, you mention tech specs and online play, and honestly, if you're actually worried about how much of the Wii's processor strength is being used to calculate motion data -- and how that will affect the system's performance -- then the Wii really doesn't sound like it's for you. If you want number-crunching and optimization (and you said you're a PC gamer as well, right?), the 360 and PS3 have horsepower in spades. But on the other hand, if you truly can't ever say no to a Mario or Zelda title, you're gonna need the Wii and it's gonna be glorious.
You sound like a cheating lover when you mention how you're interested in the 360. Don't! Multiconsolism is really the only way to squeeze all of the awesomeness out of gaming. Especially this generation, which is seeing a wild disparity in focus of all three major players. Don't think of a gaming machine as a one-stop-shop for all of your entertainment needs. Think of them as tools and gateways to specific gaming experiences; the more tools you have, the better off you are.
I think we're seeing alot of waggle ports because developers want to jump in on the cash cow that is, at the moment, the fastest selling of the 3 'this-gen' consoles. In time, better games will be released, but designing a game from the ground up, involving an entirely new control scheme, is not something that is done over the course of a few months. I plan on getting a PS3, so please, no one take this as a console-war kind of thing, but how many 'great' games have been released on the PS3 so far? XBox has a pretty decent library, but even that took a year to really get going. Every time I hear the word slump, I cringe abit. I consider the SNES to be one of the best systems ever, but if memory serves the best games weren't released in the first six months.
People have some unrealistic expectations, at times. (Not you, people in general. I just quoted you to start.)
What they said.
The only thing wrong with the DS=Wii analogy is that, in time of need, the DS can ALWAYS fall back on the fuckawesome GBA library, since developers, and even Nintendo itself, still support it.
Consoles have a tendancy to bury the fuck out of the last generation. To the point where developing a game a year or two after the consoles "death" is considered a waste of time.
However, I do hope that Nintendo finds it's niche, really. I mean, if it wanted to, it could probably court all of the major 2d developers, get em exclusive, and just keep pumping out Triple A titles once every 3 years and the Wii would be golden.
However, as it's stands, developers have no clue where to go with it. And I don't think Nintendo has a very clear vision either.
What?
Nintendo has a very clear vision on what they want to do with the Wii.
And they're succeeding remarkably well, I might add.
The Wii is not the second coming. It was never going to be. It's a game console. It has a lot of opportunity for great games, but ultimately, the games can be good or bad regardless. You will enjoy the good games, and not enjoy the bad games. This is true for all game consoles, including the Wii.
Hell, I own a Wii and several games, and the only one of them that I've finished is WarioWare. It's not that I don't think the games are fun, I've just wanted to play other games more. Am I saddened by the Wii in its inability to hold my interest? No, I know that I'm just not in the mood for those games, and will come back to it later. Right now I'm getting my pc fix.
Why would you ever buy a console at launch, then? That's pretty ridiculous.
Damn right! Plus the 360 and PS3 are all playing the same games we've always played only with fancy graphics! You know what, screw advances in technology, I'm gonna go play Monopoly!
Some things promise more than they can deliver?
Name one console that has ever 'delivered' the best games within 6 months. One.
You want to buy it again in two weeks?
Oh Lewie you had me worried there I was like ''Oh god no what happened to - Oh thank God'' :P
hehe, my cunning plan worked!
Anything with "Nintendo" on the name will sell well. This is a fact.
Personally, I don't find Nintendo's "GAMES FOR EVERYONE!" stance on the Wii all to specific.
The reason why I say it dosen't have any vision with what it wants to do, is because they seem adverse to actually admitting that some developers other then themselves might be able to make KICKASSAWESOME games for the Wii.
People like Clover, the Ico team, Suda's studio, and hell, maybe even the ff team.
If they could lock down even ONE of these guys, the wii could go from fuck awesome to "OHMYGODHOLYSHITIAMMAKINGSACRIFICESTOTHEWII".
Pretty much the same thing Nintendo's always done, the whole "Hey, if you wanna make games for our system, go right ahead, but, whatever...we don't care either way".
Which MIGHT, in the end, keep the wii from being the far and away leader of the console war.
It's more the point with the Wii that after Nintendo's E3 I was ready to call it (and did on here) the future of gaming. Living with it, it's just not.
Doesn't Nintendo have a new captain on board since the days when they alienated third-party developers? I don't see why this discussion persists. Unless....did I just quantum leap to the late 90's again? I hate when that happens.
If anything, the way the console made you feel it was the future of gaming is a great sign, regardless of the fact that the first six months haven't been HOLYFUCKAWESOME. For someone who bought the console for the 'future' you show a surprising lack of patience. I can agree a little, but I didn't get my Wii until mid-Feb, so I'm still having a great time with it.
N64 and Gamecube say hi.
This is the exact same thing that happened with the DS... it took some time for non-Nintendo developers to figure out what to do with the thing. It's early yet.
Also, Nintendo's doing a much better job courting third parties than in the N64/GC days, in that they're actually acknowledging they exist. Whether it's enough courting is another question.
I remember those. They sold well.
And not nearly as well as the Wii.
The Wii is not merely selling well, it's selling wonderfully.
3rd parties are going to notice this.
I can see the lack of patience argument, but it's a bit more than that, rather nothing (including Zelda, WarioWare or Wii Sports) has lived up to realising the potential for me. I was kinda hoping at least these games would.
The best thing about the control scheme I've found so far was how comfortable it is to play an adventure game like Zelda for long periods of time with your hands kinda at your side and in natural positions.
The fact that you don't get any tactile feedback or resistance to tell you where the limits of the motion controlling an action on screen are (say; jumping in SSX) really frustrates me.
Anyways, point is what your saying is true, but only for the time being. Wii has the potential to be really good down the road, but also has the ability to become a gimmick with a library mainly of ports of Disney movie games. With the high demand for the Wii now, you can sell it for alot of your money back, or just hold on to it and look forward to the end of this year and the few could be gems coming out the next few months.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
But still well. And they made money off each console.
SO I = WINZ
Nah man, I'm not saying they're alienating them, just not activley supporting them. Same thing goes for the PS3 in this reguard, with the 360 litterally frothing at the mouth to get ANYONE.
I can agree, to an extent, regarding the tactile feeback issue. But I think it's more because the jumping in SSX isn't done quite right. As far as resisting or limiting the motion, I don't see how they could do that. For the Wii, I view the fact that I swing my remote to swing my golf club in Tiger Woods is pretty good feed-back. I can adjust the power and length of my swing to compensate. I'm not sure where you're going with the feedback thing. The only real 'tactile feedback' for any game so far is rumble, or one of those wheels you can buy for racing games. If you want the controller to magically bounce back at you when you swing your sword at a wall in Zelda, you'll be waiting a long time.
One could make pretty much the same argument for the other two this-gen consoles. It remains to be seen if the games released will just be gussied up versions of games we've already played, ad-nauseum, or if the added proccessing power of the systems will be used to produce entirely new games. Games like Little Big Planet show promise, but games like Resistance and Motorstorm hold no interest for me.
EDIT: I've been a gamer for nigh on 20 years now, and things like 'better graphics' and 'better AI' have been staples on each successive generation. I'd much rather see the processing power used to explore original ideas.
Also, download and play some Virtual Console games. Sure they are not actually Wii games but they will have you playing and enjoying the system. Right now I am playing through A Link to the Past for the first time (yeah I know, Genesis owner) and I also picked up Gunstar Heroes which I have never even played before. So they may be old games in actuality but they are new games to me. Plus there are some really good games around the corner too. You could pick up a new game like Super Paper Mario or Sonic and the Secret Rings sometime soon and its likely that from those you won't be having this problem anymore.
Good to hear about TW being differnet, maybe they're getting it right; but bu 'tactile feedback' I mean on any analogue stick-ed pad; i tilt the joystick left, say to turn a vehicle; i hit the limit of motion of the stick in the pad and know i am turning left as hard as i can; that's tactile feedback. I'm finding i miss that terribly with wii controls. Am i all the way left yet? Have I jumed as hard as i can?
It may well be something my brain needs to re-learn.
For example, in Sonic you'll eventually reach the edge of the track, and can't go left/right any further.