I have one friend who's like the REVERSE man-child. He's quite mature, living with his folks right now just due to financial difficulties, but previously paid his own bills, worked full time, and was paying his way through school. He also seems deathly afraid of letting the world at large, and women in particular, know that he's a big geek and loves 40k and building things out of legos. The stereotype was just too awful for him, even after meeting several women who love legos and think that they're very cool.
He's regressed into a man-child.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
All over the world there are cultures where adults live with their parents until they marry. Perhaps they are 40.
In English-speaking countries we don't do that.
So I don't think it denotes maturity at all.
And I wish people would talk about specific real examples instead of stereotypes and TV much more.
Thinking that network TV shows you reality is insane.
I still think the fundamental most immature act I see is trying to seem more adult than you actually are.
so posh you live in japan
is it true that grown men read anime comics on the subway? like is this a regular thing?
are the people who wear the costumes in tokyo (i forget the district) considered to be indluging in a youthful/ childlike diversion? i mean is it something that people continue doing through life as they get into their 30s?
i've heard a lot of people claim that japan is really indulgent in terms of letting their adults indulge in kiddie pastimes. is this your experience?
I will get on the other topic proposed here. The whole "LOL, those incompetent men." trend that media promotes.
People say it's harmless sure but I can tell you from experience that it's not.
I have co-workers, friends, family and even my wife who think like this from time to time. They all think men aren't capable on the same level as women in whatever the task of the day is.
"Oh my husband forgot to set his alarm. Men. *laugh*"
"But he has to get his own way so we had chicken for dinner. Men can be such babies."
"He's a man, so I'll forgive him for not telling me the bathroom is free and he's simply brushing his teeth."
I mean, seriously, we're goddamned adults. I just want to yell in frustration when this comes up. "I'm not incompetant! You make mistakes too! I'm only incompetant because you think I am!"
Augh!
Of course the odd bit about misandry in media is that it's often aimed at men, on the premise that they will enjoy it/identify with it.
Like, yes the man is bumbling or irresponsible, but we're meant to relate to or at least like him anyway. He's fun, care-free. He's not a nag. The wife may be the "competent" one in the stereotype/commercial, but who do you want to get a beer with at the end of the day? The serious Negative Nancy who will tell you that you've got work tomorrow and you shouldn't be drinking because your triglycerides are too high, or Bro McDoofus who will order the next round and encourage you to pinch the waitress's ass?
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Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
The problem with this conversation is that the issue we're all talking about is immaturity, and pretty much all of the trappings we're discussing like playing games or living with the folks or whatever, can be, but is not necessarily, a sign of that immaturity. There is pretty much no single trait which is a guaranteed sign of it. It's the pattern of their behavior you have to view to get a sense of the person they are inside.
There are people who live at home that are not man-children, there are people who play lots of games who are not man-children, there are people who paint minis, and cosplay, and lots of other things, who are also mature stable grownups.
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
On the other hand, the happiest and most mature married couple I've ever seen are video game playing, anime watching, roleplaying cosplayers who met over the internet.
EDIT: Yes, they have stable jobs too. And comfortable lives.
Strongly disagree on the basis of arbitrary social constructs
The particular forms the constructs take may be somewhat arbitrary but there is nothing arbitrary about societies dividing activities between adult/child, and reprimanding people who fail to engage in age-appropriate behavior.
Hell, this is what society is mostly about: prescribing certain behaviors for certain groups of people, and enforcing said behaviors with social punishment in cases of non-compliance. That's like, the damn foundation of status, hierarchy, and human society generally.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
Having obsessions is fine, being quirky is fine, the true definition of man-childness would be the inability to take responsibility where it's needed.
BAM
that's half of it yeah
the other half is heavily indulging in childlike behaviors or pastimes even though one is an adult.
Strongly disagree on the basis of arbitrary social constructs
Disagree but not on the same tangent as Arch does. It's fine to have those pastimes and not care what people think. You just have to realise that even though what they're saying may not affect you, they're still saying it.
Like the whole 'girl wearing cat-ears on the bus' thing. She's fine as long as she understands that there are people who will look down on that.
That is what I was getting at a bit- of course people are going to look down on it. But as to why, well
It is usually pretty arbitrary. And I disagree that engaging in 'childish pastimes' is something to look down on; childish behavior yes.
There is a marked difference in throwing a hissy fit because you don't want to eat the peas that were a side dish to your meal at Applebees and building a spaceship out of LEGO bricks
I will get on the other topic proposed here. The whole "LOL, those incompetent men." trend that media promotes.
People say it's harmless sure but I can tell you from experience that it's not.
I have co-workers, friends, family and even my wife who think like this from time to time. They all think men aren't capable on the same level as women in whatever the task of the day is.
"Oh my husband forgot to set his alarm. Men. *laugh*"
"But he has to get his own way so we had chicken for dinner. Men can be such babies."
"He's a man, so I'll forgive him for not telling me the bathroom is free and he's simply brushing his teeth."
I mean, seriously, we're goddamned adults. I just want to yell in frustration when this comes up. "I'm not incompetant! You make mistakes too! I'm only incompetant because you think I am!"
Augh!
Of course the odd bit about misandry in media is that it's often aimed at men, on the premise that they will enjoy it/identify with it.
Like, yes the man is bumbling or irresponsible, but we're meant to relate to or at least like him anyway. He's fun, care-free. He's not a nag. The wife may be the "competent" one in the stereotype/commercial, but who do you want to get a beer with at the end of the day? The serious Negative Nancy who will tell you that you've got work tomorrow and you shouldn't be drinking because your triglycerides are too high, or Bro McDoofus who will order the next round and encourage you to pinch the waitress's ass?
Oh yeah, neither stereotype is productive to the environment. The women stereotypes presented just don't affect me since I know it's just a stereotype. So my particular situation I feel like I'm the only one who acknowledges these idiodic tropes while everyone else is just too happy to subliminally apply them to me.
The problem with this conversation is that the issue we're all talking about is immaturity, and pretty much all of the trappings we're discussing like playing games or living with the folks or whatever, can be, but is not necessarily, a sign of that immaturity. There is pretty much no single trait which is a guaranteed sign of it. It's the pattern of their behavior you have to view to get a sense of the person they are inside.
There are people who live at home that are not man-children, there are people who play lots of games who are not man-children, there are people who paint minis, and cosplay, and lots of other things, who are also mature stable grownups.
Very true, but everyone makes snap judgments based on these kinds of markers (to head a possible bad tangent off at the pass, I'm talking only about markers that people can choose and/or control, like interests, rather than inherent characteristics like hair/eye color or race). There are good reasons for this on a larger level.
For example, I generally dismiss people who hang out at sports bars as boring because, overall, they are people I have little in common with. Obviously, sports bar patrons as a whole must contain some interesting people but is it really worth my time to find out who they are? Not really. I'd do much better going to art openings, concerts, etc, to find people whose traits I value.
Interest in activities associated with childishness (for good or bad reasons) serves as a similar marker. Someone who is looking for a mature, stable partner could spend a lot of time digging through avid cosplayers to find the diamond in the rough. But is it really worth it, when he/she could simply search through groups with a higher percentage of people fitting his/her criteria?
To make this a bit more personal: I love anime and games but I generally downplay that side of my life when first meeting people. That way, when they do learn about these particular interests, they are in the context of my greater life (meaning, hobbies). If they aren't into anime, then I introduce them to movies like Metropolis or Grave of the Fireflies. If they aren't into gaming, then I introduce them to Trans-America and maybe later, if they're really intrigued, Arkham Horror.
This is, of course, assuming that one has interests beyond those labeled as "childish."
Getting married and having kids is no longer the obligation it used to be
I have to say, I found this to be kind of alarming.
I'm 24, knocked out the first one about 6 years ago, and am pretty well on the way for the next two, but I have until I'm 30 to get married and produce some offspring who look vaguely like me?
Shit, I'm screwed. I knew I didn't have it in me to be an honest-to-god middle-class American. Time to go back to the old country.
You've got a pretty exceptional pool of candidates there. Do you think that's the average situation?
They are exceptional in that they are outside of the norm for most of the guys I know in terms of personality and the like. Most of my guy friends are married and have kids. In large part, that's probably due to a lack of major personality flaws.
If I described most of my married friends, I would have far less "interesting" things to say about them (not that they're not interesting, well-rounded people, just that they have few eye-raising qualities).
I'm 29s. Most of my friends are in the late 20's to late 30's range. The ones that did get married, well they kind vanished from our social circle. They rarely get out for man night, and their man cave (ie the basement) is gradually being taken away to make way for kids. One of the ones who is married is a serial abuser, alcoholic, and has been in and out of jail for all sorts of reasons. He makes crazy cash though and is a night club promoter.
So being married doesn't always mean you have your shit together.
Virtually all my single friends, have chosen to be that way. They have good jobs and their shit together. Most simply just do not want to be stuck with one woman and want to sleep around, they are also able to easily. And they tend to have hobbies that don't mesh well with women. Racing bikes, martial arts, sky diving, ect. And they really don't want to give up the bachelor life style. Their relationships typically last till they get bored of the woman, it becomes public that they are sleeping around, or the girl realizes that it's simply not going to go beyond a booty call.
I'm sure they could all get married if they wanted to. But they really value being able to do what they want when they want, and don't really give a damn to change that.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
That is what I was getting at a bit- of course people are going to look down on it. But as to why, well
It is usually pretty arbitrary. And I disagree that engaging in 'childish pastimes' is something to look down on; childish behavior yes.
There is a marked difference in throwing a hissy fit because you don't want to eat the peas that were a side dish to your meal at Applebees and building a spaceship out of LEGO bricks
Eh. Just a difference of degree really, not so much a difference of kind.
I mean, laws are social constructs, many of which are fairly arbitrary too. You're never going to be free from social critique, or ostracization, which is how I read a lot of these comments: "I want to be able to act however I want and no one should judge me as long as I'm not hurting anyone!" Well, fair enough, I guess, but in that case being part of the human race is kind of tough titty for you. That's sort of what we do here.
Basically, society, be it informal or organized, is fundamentally concerned with the arbitration of behaviors. Truly unacceptable behaviors are formally arbitrated through law -- a system of arbitrating, valuing, and rewarding and punishing behaviors as per societal sanction. Moderately unacceptable behaviors/behaviors which are considered more ambiguous or simply undesirable, if not truly harmful, are left to social/informal mechanisms of valuing and rewarding/punishing.
I mean, this is what being a human being is all about. We are the archetype of the social animal. Most of our energies are directed towards the achievement of status (as locally socially defined) and societal reward. Our lives are constantly and unchangeably controlled by hierarchy and status. Even people who explicitly reject formal hierarchy award status to those who subscribe best and most completely with their norms. It is impossible to escape. I mean, shit, Foucault basically said this shit already. You can't get outside of society. You can't get outside of normalcy. Even as a deviant, you are still defined by what is normal.
Getting married and having kids is no longer the obligation it used to be
Tell that to my girlfriend's grandma...
This is easy to fix. Find the youngest child in your family and dangle him over the balcony at least two stories up by his leg till he screams and bursts into tears. Then haul him back up and tell everybody you were just playing with him.
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
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All over the world there are cultures where adults live with their parents until they marry. Perhaps they are 40.
In English-speaking countries we don't do that.
So I don't think it denotes maturity at all.
And I wish people would talk about specific real examples instead of stereotypes and TV much more.
Thinking that network TV shows you reality is insane.
I still think the fundamental most immature act I see is trying to seem more adult than you actually are.
I just want to point out that the only reason we can do that is we have a much higher standard of living, and the ability (via institutions that many countries don't have) to take out the large amounts of debt necessary to own a house.
Most of the world does not have that option. Even renting is out of the reach of people in many places.
I will get on the other topic proposed here. The whole "LOL, those incompetent men." trend that media promotes.
People say it's harmless sure but I can tell you from experience that it's not.
I have co-workers, friends, family and even my wife who think like this from time to time. They all think men aren't capable on the same level as women in whatever the task of the day is.
"Oh my husband forgot to set his alarm. Men. *laugh*"
"But he has to get his own way so we had chicken for dinner. Men can be such babies."
"He's a man, so I'll forgive him for not telling me the bathroom is free and he's simply brushing his teeth."
I mean, seriously, we're goddamned adults. I just want to yell in frustration when this comes up. "I'm not incompetant! You make mistakes too! I'm only incompetant because you think I am!"
Augh!
Of course the odd bit about misandry in media is that it's often aimed at men, on the premise that they will enjoy it/identify with it.
Like, yes the man is bumbling or irresponsible, but we're meant to relate to or at least like him anyway. He's fun, care-free. He's not a nag. The wife may be the "competent" one in the stereotype/commercial, but who do you want to get a beer with at the end of the day? The serious Negative Nancy who will tell you that you've got work tomorrow and you shouldn't be drinking because your triglycerides are too high, or Bro McDoofus who will order the next round and encourage you to pinch the waitress's ass?
It's important to note what area of life in which men are depicted as incompetent. Usually, the man is shown to incompetent in the domestic/interpersonal realm. Take a guy like House. He's a brilliant physician who sucks at interpersonal relationships (his friend Wilson is similar). It is unusual to find a media depiction of a man who is incompetent professionally but great domestically/interpersonally. If a man is incompetent professionally, he's probably also going to be incompetent domestically/intepresonally as well.
Also, I have to say that I appreciate that I have a limited supply of immature 20-something friends.
That was not the case when I lived on the West Coast, but now where I live most of my social circle is gainfully employed in jobs that have real responsibility and demands (and consequences), people pay their own bills, have money for socializing, have ambitions and goals, and don't live with their parents. It'd definitely pretty refreshing, especially given that a lot of us (myself included) are under 25
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Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
If it's neither harmful nor laudible, then logically it follows that it's much more a neutral act than anything. And I think it'd be much more productive to rail on actual immaturity based on social actions (like adult temper tantrums, bullying in the workplace, etc.) as opposed to assumed immaturity based on hobbies and interests.
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
Eh. Entertainment is overrated. Don't you think your ambitions should go a little deeper than "things you enjoy?" I mean, again, not that it's necessarily bad, but I don't think it warrants any kind of celebration.
"Wow! You played with some toys! Good for you!"
Great, whatever, just don't expect people to be impressed, and like every behavior you engage in under the view of others, be aware that they're not obligated to approve. And you don't really have any moral high-ground to say that they shouldn't judge you.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Getting married and having kids is no longer the obligation it used to be
I have to say, I found this to be kind of alarming.
I'm 24, knocked out the first one about 6 years ago, and am pretty well on the way for the next two, but I have until I'm 30 to get married and produce some offspring who look vaguely like me?
Shit, I'm screwed. I knew I didn't have it in me to be an honest-to-god middle-class American. Time to go back to the old country.
i'm in my mid-30s. my girlfriend and i have lived together for 6 years, but we're not married and don't have kids.
now - it's not seen as super-unusual, at least among the young urban professional set - but on the other hand, most of the people our age are married and have at least one kid.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
That is what I was getting at a bit- of course people are going to look down on it. But as to why, well
It is usually pretty arbitrary. And I disagree that engaging in 'childish pastimes' is something to look down on; childish behavior yes.
There is a marked difference in throwing a hissy fit because you don't want to eat the peas that were a side dish to your meal at Applebees and building a spaceship out of LEGO bricks
Eh. Just a difference of degree really, not so much a difference of kind.
I mean, laws are social constructs, many of which are fairly arbitrary too. You're never going to be free from social critique, or ostracization, which is how I read a lot of these comments: "I want to be able to act however I want and no one should judge me as long as I'm not hurting anyone!" Well, fair enough, I guess, but in that case being part of the human race is kind of tough titty for you. That's sort of what we do here.
this right here
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kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
To me I think the defining characteristic of a man child is the urge to escape reality. Sports nuts are equally bad - they get somewhat of a free pass because they trend to do thuings in social groups, they make money and are sometimes physically fit. But they are no less bad as our flavor of man children and women find them boorish as well. The sad and frustrating thin for me is that people can completely abdicate any sense of civic engagement or responsibility and stop appreciating the arts.
What baffles me are the nerds who think the pathos of a final fantasy game offers the most emotional fulfillment available to western civilization. There's no sense of history or of the many deeper artistic currents in our culture. I think many women unfairly find VGs off-putting, but even nerd girls will reject guys who are not just emotionally but experientially stunted. Now to pax!
Getting married and having kids is no longer the obligation it used to be
I have to say, I found this to be kind of alarming.
I'm 24, knocked out the first one about 6 years ago, and am pretty well on the way for the next two, but I have until I'm 30 to get married and produce some offspring who look vaguely like me?
Shit, I'm screwed. I knew I didn't have it in me to be an honest-to-god middle-class American. Time to go back to the old country.
i'm in my mid-30s. my girlfriend and i have lived together for 6 years, but we're not married and don't have kids.
now - it's not seen as super-unusual, at least among the young urban professional set - but on the other hand, most of the people our age are married and have at least one kid.
Well, I'm entering the point in my life where many of my long-term American friends--who tend to be older then me--are married and/or have a child.
I can only ride on the whole "I spent two years overseas because of conscription" excuse in this country for so long. Honestly, I must just have a different cultural mindset, because I am no where near ready to be married and a father. My parents were both way over thirty when I was born, and I'm their only child (albeit I was raised with my cousins in an extended household). I end up comparing myself to them.
tl;dr--oh my god, I'm a loser, I must return to the old country immediately.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
no, you're probably just a defiantly proud man-child
or else a kid. i don't really know how old you are
It's important to note what area of life in which men are depicted as incompetent. Usually, the man is shown to incompetent in the domestic/interpersonal realm. Take a guy like House. He's a brilliant physician who sucks at interpersonal relationships (his friend Wilson is similar). It is unusual to find a media depiction of a man who is incompetent professionally but great domestically/interpersonally. If a man is incompetent professionally, he's probably also going to be incompetent domestically/intepresonally as well.
Yeah, this is a good distinction. I'd say even you might be able to slice it further, where the incompetence is specifically domestic or interpersonal with women. The implication being that it's funny when you have trouble understanding women or abiding by their rules, because their rules are not to be taken seriously (women are so irrational, etc etc).
I actually just read an article about some social psychologists who are trying to formulate a universal definition of humor, and the one thing they think might actually work for that is "benign rule-breaking." I.e., when we see rules being broken in a way that doesn't really carry consequences. So, Tarantino-esque hyper violence is funny because it's so over-the-top. They're breaking social rules about violence, but in a highly unrealistic way. It is, in this analysis, spiritually not so different from child-like/cartoon/innocuous violence, like The Three Stooges, or Daffy Duck getting his beak blasted off. Even though Kill Bill is gory and explicit, they're both finding humor in violence by making it benign through removing it from reality explicitly (by disobeying physical rules).
Also, this does a good job of explaining why some things are funny to one group but offensive to another -- if you don't value the rule, it's funny. Jokes about church or religion, for example, are benign if you don't put much stock in that rule-set. The violation of most/all rules about church are benign (and therefore funny) to you if you don't care about those rules in the first place.
I think this is where this sort of advertising sexism draws its "humor." It's about the rule-violation of stereotypically feminine rules. The implicit assumption, then, is that these rule-violations are benign because we don't give much stock to female/domestic rules ("girl logic" etc). It's funny if a dad is an irresponsible parent, or an insensitive husband, because the feelings of women are sort of funny and benign to begin with.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
If I enjoy drawing stuff only fit for deviant art, you'll give me kudos?
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
Eh. Entertainment is overrated. Don't you think your ambitions should go a little deeper than "things you enjoy?"
No? I really don't see a logical argument for having any life goals besides getting as much enjoyment out of it until you die.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
If it's neither harmful nor laudible, then logically it follows that it's much more a neutral act than anything. And I think it'd be much more productive to rail on actual immaturity based on social actions (like adult temper tantrums, bullying in the workplace, etc.) as opposed to assumed immaturity based on hobbies and interests.
oh yeah i think those things are awful
but they're not really what i'm bitching about right now
what i'm bitching about is the demand from man-children that their lifestyle be accepted as "normal" or at least "legitimate"
i don't see myself as being under any such obligation
That is what I was getting at a bit- of course people are going to look down on it. But as to why, well
It is usually pretty arbitrary. And I disagree that engaging in 'childish pastimes' is something to look down on; childish behavior yes.
There is a marked difference in throwing a hissy fit because you don't want to eat the peas that were a side dish to your meal at Applebees and building a spaceship out of LEGO bricks
Eh. Just a difference of degree really, not so much a difference of kind.
I mean, laws are social constructs, many of which are fairly arbitrary too. You're never going to be free from social critique, or ostracization, which is how I read a lot of these comments: "I want to be able to act however I want and no one should judge me as long as I'm not hurting anyone!" Well, fair enough, I guess, but in that case being part of the human race is kind of tough titty for you. That's sort of what we do here.
this right here
[strike]hi5[/strike] Firm-handshake
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Getting married and having kids is no longer the obligation it used to be
I have to say, I found this to be kind of alarming.
I'm 24, knocked out the first one about 6 years ago, and am pretty well on the way for the next two, but I have until I'm 30 to get married and produce some offspring who look vaguely like me?
Shit, I'm screwed. I knew I didn't have it in me to be an honest-to-god middle-class American. Time to go back to the old country.
i'm in my mid-30s. my girlfriend and i have lived together for 6 years, but we're not married and don't have kids.
now - it's not seen as super-unusual, at least among the young urban professional set - but on the other hand, most of the people our age are married and have at least one kid.
Thank god you didn't call her your "partner". I'd have to beat the new-age out of you.
Well, I'm entering the point in my life where many of my long-term American friends--who tend to be older then me--are married and/or have a child.
I can only ride on the whole "I spent two years overseas because of conscription" excuse in this country for so long. Honestly, I must just have a different cultural mindset, because I am no where near ready to be married and a father. My parents were both way over thirty when I was born, and I'm their only child (albeit I was raised with my cousins in an extended household). I end up comparing myself to them.
tl;dr--oh my god, I'm a loser, I must return to the old country immediately.
The problem with this conversation is that the issue we're all talking about is immaturity, and pretty much all of the trappings we're discussing like playing games or living with the folks or whatever, can be, but is not necessarily, a sign of that immaturity. There is pretty much no single trait which is a guaranteed sign of it. It's the pattern of their behavior you have to view to get a sense of the person they are inside.
There are people who live at home that are not man-children, there are people who play lots of games who are not man-children, there are people who paint minis, and cosplay, and lots of other things, who are also mature stable grownups.
I'm generally suspicious of discussions about "maturity" or "immaturity" because different people develop in different ways.
A child who is painfully shy and withdrawn should be encouraged to engage socially with other people as he gets older. He should learn to be more confident and less concerned about other people's disapproval. A child who is insulting, acts out, and is constantly noisy even in class and restaurants and movie theaters should be encouraged to sit quietly and be more concerned with the effects of his actions on other people. They are opposite trajectories towards a happy medium.
To point to an extreme behavior as a sign of immaturity is damaging in two ways; first it implies that the equal but opposite extreme represents healthy adult development even if it doesn't necessarily; second it implies that people who show a moderate, controlled version of that extreme behavior are partly immature. Somebody who sits alone and plays video games 40 hours a week with no social interaction and no exercise needs to put down the controller and go outside. That is clear. But a hypothetical opposite, a workaholic who never lets himself have fun, whose every waking moment is filled with some profitable enterprise isn't particularly healthy either. The healthiest is a balance (and some overlap) between work and play.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
If it's neither harmful nor laudible, then logically it follows that it's much more a neutral act than anything. And I think it'd be much more productive to rail on actual immaturity based on social actions (like adult temper tantrums, bullying in the workplace, etc.) as opposed to assumed immaturity based on hobbies and interests.
oh yeah i think those things are awful
but they're not really what i'm bitching about right now
what i'm bitching about is the demand from man-children that their lifestyle be accepted as "normal" or at least "legitimate"
i don't see myself as being under any such obligation
Getting married and having kids is no longer the obligation it used to be
I have to say, I found this to be kind of alarming.
I'm 24, knocked out the first one about 6 years ago, and am pretty well on the way for the next two, but I have until I'm 30 to get married and produce some offspring who look vaguely like me?
Shit, I'm screwed. I knew I didn't have it in me to be an honest-to-god middle-class American. Time to go back to the old country.
i'm in my mid-30s. my girlfriend and i have lived together for 6 years, but we're not married and don't have kids.
now - it's not seen as super-unusual, at least among the young urban professional set - but on the other hand, most of the people our age are married and have at least one kid.
Thank god you didn't call her your "partner". I'd have to beat the new-age out of you.
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He's regressed into a man-child.
so posh you live in japan
is it true that grown men read anime comics on the subway? like is this a regular thing?
are the people who wear the costumes in tokyo (i forget the district) considered to be indluging in a youthful/ childlike diversion? i mean is it something that people continue doing through life as they get into their 30s?
i've heard a lot of people claim that japan is really indulgent in terms of letting their adults indulge in kiddie pastimes. is this your experience?
Of course the odd bit about misandry in media is that it's often aimed at men, on the premise that they will enjoy it/identify with it.
Like, yes the man is bumbling or irresponsible, but we're meant to relate to or at least like him anyway. He's fun, care-free. He's not a nag. The wife may be the "competent" one in the stereotype/commercial, but who do you want to get a beer with at the end of the day? The serious Negative Nancy who will tell you that you've got work tomorrow and you shouldn't be drinking because your triglycerides are too high, or Bro McDoofus who will order the next round and encourage you to pinch the waitress's ass?
Immaturity is something I feel is very common. I haven't personally met many examples of the old "age brings wisdom" adage. I see adults throw temper tantrums when they hear things they don't want to hear, I see willful ignorance, I see people doing the adult equivilent of "nyahnyahnyah I can't hear yoooou". Frankly, playing with GI Joes when you're 35 seems less egregious to me than some of the utter immature shit I see come out of the mouths and minds of supposedly mature human beings, including my own immediate family members.
On the other hand, the happiest and most mature married couple I've ever seen are video game playing, anime watching, roleplaying cosplayers who met over the internet.
EDIT: Yes, they have stable jobs too. And comfortable lives.
The particular forms the constructs take may be somewhat arbitrary but there is nothing arbitrary about societies dividing activities between adult/child, and reprimanding people who fail to engage in age-appropriate behavior.
Hell, this is what society is mostly about: prescribing certain behaviors for certain groups of people, and enforcing said behaviors with social punishment in cases of non-compliance. That's like, the damn foundation of status, hierarchy, and human society generally.
adults playing GI Joes isn't harmful, the way that, say, mugging or domestic violence or alcoholism or drug addictions are
but it's also not really laudible either
That is what I was getting at a bit- of course people are going to look down on it. But as to why, well
It is usually pretty arbitrary. And I disagree that engaging in 'childish pastimes' is something to look down on; childish behavior yes.
There is a marked difference in throwing a hissy fit because you don't want to eat the peas that were a side dish to your meal at Applebees and building a spaceship out of LEGO bricks
Oh yeah, neither stereotype is productive to the environment. The women stereotypes presented just don't affect me since I know it's just a stereotype. So my particular situation I feel like I'm the only one who acknowledges these idiodic tropes while everyone else is just too happy to subliminally apply them to me.
Very true, but everyone makes snap judgments based on these kinds of markers (to head a possible bad tangent off at the pass, I'm talking only about markers that people can choose and/or control, like interests, rather than inherent characteristics like hair/eye color or race). There are good reasons for this on a larger level.
For example, I generally dismiss people who hang out at sports bars as boring because, overall, they are people I have little in common with. Obviously, sports bar patrons as a whole must contain some interesting people but is it really worth my time to find out who they are? Not really. I'd do much better going to art openings, concerts, etc, to find people whose traits I value.
Interest in activities associated with childishness (for good or bad reasons) serves as a similar marker. Someone who is looking for a mature, stable partner could spend a lot of time digging through avid cosplayers to find the diamond in the rough. But is it really worth it, when he/she could simply search through groups with a higher percentage of people fitting his/her criteria?
To make this a bit more personal: I love anime and games but I generally downplay that side of my life when first meeting people. That way, when they do learn about these particular interests, they are in the context of my greater life (meaning, hobbies). If they aren't into anime, then I introduce them to movies like Metropolis or Grave of the Fireflies. If they aren't into gaming, then I introduce them to Trans-America and maybe later, if they're really intrigued, Arkham Horror.
This is, of course, assuming that one has interests beyond those labeled as "childish."
I have to say, I found this to be kind of alarming.
I'm 24, knocked out the first one about 6 years ago, and am pretty well on the way for the next two, but I have until I'm 30 to get married and produce some offspring who look vaguely like me?
Shit, I'm screwed. I knew I didn't have it in me to be an honest-to-god middle-class American. Time to go back to the old country.
I'm 29s. Most of my friends are in the late 20's to late 30's range. The ones that did get married, well they kind vanished from our social circle. They rarely get out for man night, and their man cave (ie the basement) is gradually being taken away to make way for kids. One of the ones who is married is a serial abuser, alcoholic, and has been in and out of jail for all sorts of reasons. He makes crazy cash though and is a night club promoter.
So being married doesn't always mean you have your shit together.
Virtually all my single friends, have chosen to be that way. They have good jobs and their shit together. Most simply just do not want to be stuck with one woman and want to sleep around, they are also able to easily. And they tend to have hobbies that don't mesh well with women. Racing bikes, martial arts, sky diving, ect. And they really don't want to give up the bachelor life style. Their relationships typically last till they get bored of the woman, it becomes public that they are sleeping around, or the girl realizes that it's simply not going to go beyond a booty call.
I'm sure they could all get married if they wanted to. But they really value being able to do what they want when they want, and don't really give a damn to change that.
Tell that to my girlfriend's grandma...
Eh. Just a difference of degree really, not so much a difference of kind.
I mean, laws are social constructs, many of which are fairly arbitrary too. You're never going to be free from social critique, or ostracization, which is how I read a lot of these comments: "I want to be able to act however I want and no one should judge me as long as I'm not hurting anyone!" Well, fair enough, I guess, but in that case being part of the human race is kind of tough titty for you. That's sort of what we do here.
Basically, society, be it informal or organized, is fundamentally concerned with the arbitration of behaviors. Truly unacceptable behaviors are formally arbitrated through law -- a system of arbitrating, valuing, and rewarding and punishing behaviors as per societal sanction. Moderately unacceptable behaviors/behaviors which are considered more ambiguous or simply undesirable, if not truly harmful, are left to social/informal mechanisms of valuing and rewarding/punishing.
I mean, this is what being a human being is all about. We are the archetype of the social animal. Most of our energies are directed towards the achievement of status (as locally socially defined) and societal reward. Our lives are constantly and unchangeably controlled by hierarchy and status. Even people who explicitly reject formal hierarchy award status to those who subscribe best and most completely with their norms. It is impossible to escape. I mean, shit, Foucault basically said this shit already. You can't get outside of society. You can't get outside of normalcy. Even as a deviant, you are still defined by what is normal.
This is easy to fix. Find the youngest child in your family and dangle him over the balcony at least two stories up by his leg till he screams and bursts into tears. Then haul him back up and tell everybody you were just playing with him.
No more questions about babies ever.
Why.
I think doing things you enjoy should be lauded and encouraged.
I guess this is because I'm a godless heathen and hedonist lacking Protestant work ethic or whatever. But frankly, fuck that.
I just want to point out that the only reason we can do that is we have a much higher standard of living, and the ability (via institutions that many countries don't have) to take out the large amounts of debt necessary to own a house.
Most of the world does not have that option. Even renting is out of the reach of people in many places.
Damn, Will, did Mary Poppins not let you play with the kite or something?
It's important to note what area of life in which men are depicted as incompetent. Usually, the man is shown to incompetent in the domestic/interpersonal realm. Take a guy like House. He's a brilliant physician who sucks at interpersonal relationships (his friend Wilson is similar). It is unusual to find a media depiction of a man who is incompetent professionally but great domestically/interpersonally. If a man is incompetent professionally, he's probably also going to be incompetent domestically/intepresonally as well.
That was not the case when I lived on the West Coast, but now where I live most of my social circle is gainfully employed in jobs that have real responsibility and demands (and consequences), people pay their own bills, have money for socializing, have ambitions and goals, and don't live with their parents. It'd definitely pretty refreshing, especially given that a lot of us (myself included) are under 25
If it's neither harmful nor laudible, then logically it follows that it's much more a neutral act than anything. And I think it'd be much more productive to rail on actual immaturity based on social actions (like adult temper tantrums, bullying in the workplace, etc.) as opposed to assumed immaturity based on hobbies and interests.
Eh. Entertainment is overrated. Don't you think your ambitions should go a little deeper than "things you enjoy?" I mean, again, not that it's necessarily bad, but I don't think it warrants any kind of celebration.
"Wow! You played with some toys! Good for you!"
Great, whatever, just don't expect people to be impressed, and like every behavior you engage in under the view of others, be aware that they're not obligated to approve. And you don't really have any moral high-ground to say that they shouldn't judge you.
i'm in my mid-30s. my girlfriend and i have lived together for 6 years, but we're not married and don't have kids.
now - it's not seen as super-unusual, at least among the young urban professional set - but on the other hand, most of the people our age are married and have at least one kid.
this right here
What baffles me are the nerds who think the pathos of a final fantasy game offers the most emotional fulfillment available to western civilization. There's no sense of history or of the many deeper artistic currents in our culture. I think many women unfairly find VGs off-putting, but even nerd girls will reject guys who are not just emotionally but experientially stunted. Now to pax!
Well, I'm entering the point in my life where many of my long-term American friends--who tend to be older then me--are married and/or have a child.
I can only ride on the whole "I spent two years overseas because of conscription" excuse in this country for so long. Honestly, I must just have a different cultural mindset, because I am no where near ready to be married and a father. My parents were both way over thirty when I was born, and I'm their only child (albeit I was raised with my cousins in an extended household). I end up comparing myself to them.
tl;dr--oh my god, I'm a loser, I must return to the old country immediately.
no, you're probably just a defiantly proud man-child
or else a kid. i don't really know how old you are
Yeah, this is a good distinction. I'd say even you might be able to slice it further, where the incompetence is specifically domestic or interpersonal with women. The implication being that it's funny when you have trouble understanding women or abiding by their rules, because their rules are not to be taken seriously (women are so irrational, etc etc).
I actually just read an article about some social psychologists who are trying to formulate a universal definition of humor, and the one thing they think might actually work for that is "benign rule-breaking." I.e., when we see rules being broken in a way that doesn't really carry consequences. So, Tarantino-esque hyper violence is funny because it's so over-the-top. They're breaking social rules about violence, but in a highly unrealistic way. It is, in this analysis, spiritually not so different from child-like/cartoon/innocuous violence, like The Three Stooges, or Daffy Duck getting his beak blasted off. Even though Kill Bill is gory and explicit, they're both finding humor in violence by making it benign through removing it from reality explicitly (by disobeying physical rules).
Also, this does a good job of explaining why some things are funny to one group but offensive to another -- if you don't value the rule, it's funny. Jokes about church or religion, for example, are benign if you don't put much stock in that rule-set. The violation of most/all rules about church are benign (and therefore funny) to you if you don't care about those rules in the first place.
I think this is where this sort of advertising sexism draws its "humor." It's about the rule-violation of stereotypically feminine rules. The implicit assumption, then, is that these rule-violations are benign because we don't give much stock to female/domestic rules ("girl logic" etc). It's funny if a dad is an irresponsible parent, or an insensitive husband, because the feelings of women are sort of funny and benign to begin with.
If I enjoy drawing stuff only fit for deviant art, you'll give me kudos?
No? I really don't see a logical argument for having any life goals besides getting as much enjoyment out of it until you die.
oh yeah i think those things are awful
but they're not really what i'm bitching about right now
what i'm bitching about is the demand from man-children that their lifestyle be accepted as "normal" or at least "legitimate"
i don't see myself as being under any such obligation
[strike]hi5[/strike] Firm-handshake
Thank god you didn't call her your "partner". I'd have to beat the new-age out of you.
Yes. And other people find that distressing, and are not obligated to sanction your world-view or approve of it.
are you korean or israeli?
I'm generally suspicious of discussions about "maturity" or "immaturity" because different people develop in different ways.
A child who is painfully shy and withdrawn should be encouraged to engage socially with other people as he gets older. He should learn to be more confident and less concerned about other people's disapproval. A child who is insulting, acts out, and is constantly noisy even in class and restaurants and movie theaters should be encouraged to sit quietly and be more concerned with the effects of his actions on other people. They are opposite trajectories towards a happy medium.
To point to an extreme behavior as a sign of immaturity is damaging in two ways; first it implies that the equal but opposite extreme represents healthy adult development even if it doesn't necessarily; second it implies that people who show a moderate, controlled version of that extreme behavior are partly immature. Somebody who sits alone and plays video games 40 hours a week with no social interaction and no exercise needs to put down the controller and go outside. That is clear. But a hypothetical opposite, a workaholic who never lets himself have fun, whose every waking moment is filled with some profitable enterprise isn't particularly healthy either. The healthiest is a balance (and some overlap) between work and play.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
:?
o god no
cutesy titles for significant others is the worst
i knew someone who used "co-pilot"
so lame
Well I find their world view distressing.