When is it okay to decide something is harmful and so write a person off because they express themselves?
I imagine you're going to get an answer wrapped in shining principles, far removed from reality. A better question for Drez would be whether or not he's written off a person in real life an, if yes, what did they do or say to be blacklisted?
No. When I come across something that I, personally, consider harmful to individuals, harmful to society, and in this case, actually evil--in this case, racism--I am willing to write a person off for a single article they wrote, yes.
So at what point is it no longer okay for a person to decide that something is harmful to society? Do they need to have statistics? Do they need to quote Bible passages? When is it okay to decide something is harmful and so write a person off because they express themselves?
A demonstrable harm?
I can demonstrate the harm of racism. I can demonstrate the harm of poor hygiene. Both have had demonstrable negative effects on people.
Could you please demonstrate the harm in wearing cat ears that doesn't boil down to "I don't like it".
Its just that one of these is acceptable to judge around here and the other one brings people out of the woodwork to defend what a free spirit they are.
Whoa, my boo-boo. I thought this was a thread about 'let's study the man-child' and not a thread about 'let's take passive-aggressive potshots at how goddamn oppressed conservatives are on D+D.'
From a (not "the" - "a") female viewpoint, the man-child is not the guy who likes Naruto; he's the guy who expects other people to be responsible for maintaining his life, like he was still living at home with Mom except that he also expects sex when he feels like it. Your boyfriend has a good job, takes care of himself, but likes to chill playing Pokemon Soul Silver on his DS from time to time? Or, he takes care of your household, pays the bills, makes dinner and handles day-to-day stuff while you're out at the office all day? Not a man-child.
However, your boyfriend who sits on his ass playing WoW all weekend while you take care of the housework, who expects you to remind him to do what little work he does bother to pay attention to, who 'forgets' to unload the dishwasher once in a while even though you remind him, and who pouts when you don't blow him to celebrate whenever he finishes a particularly tough raid? Man-child.
mythago on
Three lines of plaintext:
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
What point is that? That if you choose to attend a political group's rally, that it's totally unlike UNFAIR for people to assume you generally agree with the viewpoint of that political group? Or was your point that "attending a Tea Party rally" says no more about your opinions than a Pac-Man T-shirt does?
This isn't a liberal/conservative thing, by the way. If I told you that I went to a Marriage Equality vigil, I'd be kind of a dumbass for getting mad that you assume I support LGBT rights or same-sex marriage.
mythago on
Three lines of plaintext:
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
No. When I come across something that I, personally, consider harmful to individuals, harmful to society, and in this case, actually evil--in this case, racism--I am willing to write a person off for a single article they wrote, yes.
So at what point is it no longer okay for a person to decide that something is harmful to society? Do they need to have statistics? Do they need to quote Bible passages? When is it okay to decide something is harmful and so write a person off because they express themselves?
Like Quid says I can offer logical arguments and actual evidence for racism causing harm both to individuals and society at large. Can you provide anything of the sort for wearing cat ears, wearing a Pac Man shirt, or playing hopscotch when you are 45?
Oh I see where the confusion is. I was throwing the words "I, personally" back at you Nucker.
See the thing is I, personally am not an ignorant silly goose. I make informed judgments about things. So when I refer to something "I, personally" consider harmful to society it is a personal judgment, yes, but one based entirely on logic and evidence.
I apologize. I should have made that clear. I guess I was struck dumb by the assertion that racism and wearing cat ears are even remotely on the same level in any way.
I thought we figured out ten pages ago that being repulsed by a grown man wearing cat ears in public was a prejudice. The high ick factor inspires like-mindedness in a society, making us more unified and giving us guidelines on how to properly live. We are also prejudiced against public nudity, graffiti, or running around strangers firing blanks from a pistol. No permanent harm done in those cases, either, but if we see a naked man running down Main St., we assume he's crazy and call the police.
No. When I come across something that I, personally, consider harmful to individuals, harmful to society, and in this case, actually evil--in this case, racism--I am willing to write a person off for a single article they wrote, yes.
So at what point is it no longer okay for a person to decide that something is harmful to society? Do they need to have statistics? Do they need to quote Bible passages? When is it okay to decide something is harmful and so write a person off because they express themselves?
Like Quid says I can offer logical arguments and actual evidence for racism causing harm both to individuals and society at large. Can you provide anything of the sort for wearing cat ears, wearing a Pac Man shirt, or playing hopscotch when you are 45?
If you act like a nutjob, expect to be treated as such.
If you act like a nutjob and take offense to being treated as such, do everyone a favor and seek professional therapy.
You can't expect society to simply allow you to act irrationally and still impart you with responsibilty.
People who do weird shit tend to be psychologically unbalanced, and present a real danger to those around them.
Theres a very distinct line between paying homage to a shared cultural experience (pac man shirt) and living in a fantasy land because you can't (or wont) deal with reality (wearing cat ears, playing hopscotch).
Please keep in mind these are broad generalizations, based on activities in which very little context was provided.
The defining characteristic of a man child is someone who is oblivious to the fact that they are responsible for how they are percieved, and as such have an obligation to learn the standards of the society they are a part of. It is not that they acknowledge this and choose to act in irregular fashion, it's that they are unaware of the distinction to begin with, nor are they capable of recognizing its validity.
Oddly enough, this is very similar to sociopathic pathology.
What point is that? That if you choose to attend a political group's rally, that it's totally unlike UNFAIR for people to assume you generally agree with the viewpoint of that political group? Or was your point that "attending a Tea Party rally" says no more about your opinions than a Pac-Man T-shirt does?
This isn't a liberal/conservative thing, by the way. If I told you that I went to a Marriage Equality vigil, I'd be kind of a dumbass for getting mad that you assume I support LGBT rights or same-sex marriage.
Well its more about getting upset about getting judged because you're a 30 something wearing a Naruto headband and not being treated like the unique snowflake you are. There's a huge difference in between wearing a t shirt and wearing a costume on your mall outing, or acting like an oblivious dork and expecting not to get judged on it.
And of course its not a lib/con thing. I was making the point that while WH40K and Pokemon are sacred cows around here, I get to see plenty of smug condensation in any political thread around here, usually by the same people who are screeching "Don't judge!!!!" when it comes to hanging with pre teens and slapping down some Pokemons at the food court.
You might want to take a breath too, as an aside. You seem like you're getting kinda worked up about this.
No. When I come across something that I, personally, consider harmful to individuals, harmful to society, and in this case, actually evil--in this case, racism--I am willing to write a person off for a single article they wrote, yes.
So at what point is it no longer okay for a person to decide that something is harmful to society? Do they need to have statistics? Do they need to quote Bible passages? When is it okay to decide something is harmful and so write a person off because they express themselves?
A demonstrable harm?
I can demonstrate the harm of racism. I can demonstrate the harm of poor hygiene. Both have had demonstrable negative effects on people.
Could you please demonstrate the harm in wearing cat ears that doesn't boil down to "I don't like it".
Notably, they had much higher-quality relationships with friends, parents, and romantic partners. Their need to fit in, in the early teens, later manifested itself as a willingness to accommodate ─ a necessary component of all reciprocal relationships. The self-conscious kid who spent seventh grade convinced that everyone was watching her learned to be attuned to subtle changes in others’ moods. Years down the road, that heightened sensitivity lead to empathy and social adeptness.
Meanwhile, those kids who did not feel much peer pressure to smoke, drink, and shoplift in seventh grade didn’t turn out to be the independent-minded stars we’d imagine. Instead, what was notable about them was that within five years they had a much lower GPA ─ almost a full grade lower. The kid who could say no to his peers turned out to be less engaged, all around, socially and academically. Basically, if he was so detached that he didn’t care what his peers thought, he probably wasn’t motivated by what his parents or society expected of him, either.
Libby McLiberalson says: "You're demonstrating bigotry against furries and men who seduce their dogs with jars of peanut butter, sammich. Both are victimless vices."
I make informed judgments about things. So when I refer to something "I, personally" consider harmful to society it is a personal judgment, yes, but one based entirely on logic and evidence.
You should've been clear that no matter how you dress this up, you and people who make these kinds of judgments are still making personal judgment in the same way as someone judging a pac-man-wearing neckbeard or the cat-ear bus girl.
I make informed judgments about things. So when I refer to something "I, personally" consider harmful to society it is a personal judgment, yes, but one based entirely on logic and evidence.
You should've been clear that no matter how you dress this up, you and people who make these kinds of judgments are still making personal judgment in the same way as someone judging a pac-man-wearing neckbeard or the cat-ear bus girl.
And, ignorant or not, you are a silly goose.
I don't know if you actually think this way or what but if you actually take anything from this thread, please let it be the fact that bigots will no longer find peace in modern public society.
And as for cat ears, I'd rather hang out with someone who lacks a few social graces (assuming their personality is otherwise a-ok) than someone who thinks they are better than everyone else but I guess I'm just weird like that.
I mean when you have people suggesting that wearing cat ears alone suggests sociopathy, like Ronnie Law just has, this thread has gone beyond sane discourse.
Notably, they had much higher-quality relationships with friends, parents, and romantic partners. Their need to fit in, in the early teens, later manifested itself as a willingness to accommodate ─ a necessary component of all reciprocal relationships. The self-conscious kid who spent seventh grade convinced that everyone was watching her learned to be attuned to subtle changes in others’ moods. Years down the road, that heightened sensitivity lead to empathy and social adeptness.
Meanwhile, those kids who did not feel much peer pressure to smoke, drink, and shoplift in seventh grade didn’t turn out to be the independent-minded stars we’d imagine. Instead, what was notable about them was that within five years they had a much lower GPA ─ almost a full grade lower. The kid who could say no to his peers turned out to be less engaged, all around, socially and academically. Basically, if he was so detached that he didn’t care what his peers thought, he probably wasn’t motivated by what his parents or society expected of him, either.
And he more or less invalidates the first part of the article with the second part. What he should have said in the first part was that some peer pressure can be helpful. In fact, the ability to mediate peer pressure is what made the subjects go on to have "successful lives".
If this was slashdot someone would write correlation is not causation.
Well its more about getting upset about getting judged because you're a 30 something wearing a Naruto headband and not being treated like the unique snowflake you are. There's a huge difference in between wearing a t shirt and wearing a costume on your mall outing, or acting like an oblivious dork and expecting not to get judged on it.
And of course its not a lib/con thing. I was making the point that while WH40K and Pokemon are sacred cows around here, I get to see plenty of smug condensation in any political thread around here, usually by the same people who are screeching "Don't judge!!!!" when it comes to hanging with pre teens and slapping down some Pokemons at the food court.
You might want to take a breath too, as an aside. You seem like you're getting kinda worked up about this.
I'm not particularly worked up about this, and I'd kinda rather not play the game where one person derails the discussion with 'gee, you're upset, why don't we argue about that for a while instead of the actual subject.'
What do you mean by "getting judged"? If you see somebody in a Naruto headband, "judging" that they're a huge anime fan is quite reasonable. If by "judging" you mean automatically assuming they're a man-child who lives in his mom's basement and can't deal with adults his own age, yeah, I'd call that a judgmental, silly-goose leap without further evidence.
If I see somebody continually whining about how mean the liberals are to them every chance they get, I'll probably be a little judgy about that, admittedly.
mythago on
Three lines of plaintext:
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
And he more or less invalidates the first part of the article with the second part. What he should have said in the first part was that some peer pressure can be helpful. In fact, the ability to mediate peer pressure is what made the subjects go on to have "successful lives".
If this was slashdot someone would write correlation is not causation.
Except him talking about mediating peer pressure doesn't invalidate the article, and handwaving "correalation is not causation" doesn't invalidate his findings.
What do you mean by "getting judged"? If you see somebody in a Naruto headband, "judging" that they're a huge anime fan is quite reasonable. If by "judging" you mean automatically assuming they're a man-child who lives in his mom's basement and can't deal with adults his own age, yeah, I'd call that a judgmental, silly-goose leap without further evidence.
Except most of the 30 somethings in Naruto headbands fit that mold, and when you put on that headband that's the group you're choosing to associate with. I wouldn't go as far as you did in your judgement, but I certainly would have a hard time taking anything they say seriously. Maybe you live in an area of well adjusted rabid anime fans or something?
For example, I like to fence. It doesn't mean I wear a glove or jacket or mask out to town to announce my love of fencing because I realise that's kind of inappropriate for a grown man to do.
I don't get why that sort of thing (basic social mores) is so hard to understand around here.
If I see somebody continually whining about how mean the liberals are to them every chance they get, I'll probably be a little judgy about that, admittedly.
Are you white knighting for D&D? I don't get why you keep bringing this tangent up to be honest.
What do you mean by "getting judged"? If you see somebody in a Naruto headband, "judging" that they're a huge anime fan is quite reasonable. If by "judging" you mean automatically assuming they're a man-child who lives in his mom's basement and can't deal with adults his own age, yeah, I'd call that a judgmental, silly-goose leap without further evidence.
Except most of the 30 somethings in Naruto headbands fit that mold
Except this is just something you've decided is true and isn't actually based on anything factual. Do you follow people wearing Naruto headbands home to observe their at home lifestyle? Or can you cite a poll or survey that lends any credibility to your snap judgment? You've just provided an excellent example of how indefensible your attitude is. So, thank you for that.
I don't get why that sort of thing (basic social mores) is so hard to understand around here.
I don't get why it is so hard for you and a few others to understand that judging people based on absolutely nothing but your own silly biases is wrong.
Drez on
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
0
Options
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
You can't expect society to simply allow you to act irrationally and still impart you with responsibilty.
People who do weird shit tend to be psychologically unbalanced, and present a real danger to those around them.
Theres a very distinct line between paying homage to a shared cultural experience (pac man shirt) and living in a fantasy land because you can't (or wont) deal with reality (wearing cat ears, playing hopscotch).
Whenever I stay in a hotel, I tend to skip down the hall whenever I need to get something from inside the hotel. Like ice, or something from a vending machine. Typically in socks. Skipping is rad.
I also like to sing in public, out loud. Bugs the shit out of my wife. Sometimes I rap. Poorly.
Sure, these are eccentric quirks. People look at me funny when they see me do something like that. I'm hard pressed, though, to see myself as a real danger to those around me.
See, once upon a time I didn't do anything in public that might make people look at me funny. Then I grew up. I realized that I genuinely don't give a shit what random strangers think of me, because I am never going to see them again. Hell, I probably give them an awesome "guess what bizarre shit I saw today" anecdote.
I do care what my friends and family think. And you know what? Not a damned one of them thinks less of me because of these things. I'm quirky. It makes life more interesting. I don't really dig cat ears, though. Is that some specific anime reference? Or is it being a furry?
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Except this is just something you've decided is true and isn't actually based on anything factual. Do you follow people wearing Naruto headbands home to observe their at home lifestyle? Or can you cite a poll or survey that lends any credibility to your snap judgment? You've just provided an excellent example of how indefensible your attitude is. So, thank you for that.
Uh yes, observing who makes up the fanbase pretty much. Again, maybe there's some mythical convent of rabid, well adjusted anime fans I'm just not seeing, but from going to 'cons and what have you its kind of obvious that a lot (if not a majority) of these people have personal lives that resemble a train wreck.
I don't get why it is so hard for you and a few others to understand that judging people based on absolutely nothing but your own silly biases is wrong.
Welp, there's how the world works and how you wish it works.
Accepting the first part is a sign of maturity. Demanding the second is a pretty large neon man child sign.
You can't expect society to simply allow you to act irrationally and still impart you with responsibilty.
People who do weird shit tend to be psychologically unbalanced, and present a real danger to those around them.
Theres a very distinct line between paying homage to a shared cultural experience (pac man shirt) and living in a fantasy land because you can't (or wont) deal with reality (wearing cat ears, playing hopscotch).
Whenever I stay in a hotel, I tend to skip down the hall whenever I need to get something from inside the hotel. Like ice, or something from a vending machine. Typically in socks. Skipping is rad.
I also like to sing in public, out loud. Bugs the shit out of my wife. Sometimes I rap. Poorly.
Sure, these are eccentric quirks. People look at me funny when they see me do something like that. I'm hard pressed, though, to see myself as a real danger to those around me.
See, once upon a time I didn't do anything in public that might make people look at me funny. Then I grew up. I realized that I genuinely don't give a shit what random strangers think of me, because I am never going to see them again. Hell, I probably give them an awesome "guess what bizarre shit I saw today" anecdote.
I do care what my friends and family think. And you know what? Not a damned one of them thinks less of me because of these things. I'm quirky. It makes life more interesting. I don't really dig cat ears, though. Is that some specific anime reference? Or is it being a furry?
That just means you are a man-child sociopath, ElJeffe. To NOT be a man-child sociopath, you have to constantly worry about and account for what other people may think of every breath you take, every move you make, every bond you break, and every step you take. They'll be watching you. Every single day, every word you say, every game you play, they'll be watching you. Especially if it's Naruto, or Pac Man.
Also, you have to make sure you never step outside the boundaries of what society has deemed appropriate adult behavior, and you must never, ever make anyone feel remotely uncomfortable even if their discomfort is a manufacture of their own biases that they've formed about entirely harmless, arbitrary societal traditions. This is how you become and stay an adult, ElJeffe.
Edit: And for all the people getting uppity about "passing judgement", all I have to say is just walk into any thread on here about Republicans/Christians/ANYTHING RIGHT OF CENTER and you're going to see a bunch of snap judgements and people getting each other worked up based on an article they read.
Yeah, because judging the words in an editorial attempting to prove or support some kind of argument is totally the same thing as judging someone for wearing a Super Mario shirt.
It's fine to pass judgment on an article.
You'd judge someone if they were at a Tea Party rally.
I would assume that they hold one or more views that the Tea Party espouses, and probably strongly. I would also assume them to be Republican. I wouldn't assume they're racist, or stupid, or think Obama is a secret Muslim, because it's impossible to know for certain. I would also assume that they probably hold one or more views that I would really disagree with.
As a class, though, you can assume lots of things about the class "Tea Partiers". Because there are tons of polls and demographic studies that tell us about trends for this group. That's just basic statistics.
Now, if someone has actually written an article on an issue, it's perfectly fair to "judge" their position on that issue. There may also be several subtexts or conventions that belie their positions on other topics. This is because the person is actively communicating. They are saying "This is what I think," in some level of detail.
A person wearing a Pac Man shirt is communicating, sure, but it's passive. They aren't pulling you aside and saying, "Hey you, this is my view!" All they are saying is, "I like this shirt enough to wear it." Heck, even if they're kind of slovenly, that doesn't tell you that much. You know how many times I've gone to the grocery store in the morning without showering because we were out of milk? Or have spent the day working outside, gotten sweaty and gross, and then remembered I need to get to the bank before they close at 3:00? Shit happens, and you don't always have time to get pretty before you go out.
The amount of information you can get out of a single glance at a person as they're walking by is fucking miniscule, and pretending you know more than maybe one or two extremely superficial things about him is hugely unwise.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I thought we figured out ten pages ago that being repulsed by a grown man wearing cat ears in public was a prejudice. The high ick factor inspires like-mindedness in a society, making us more unified and giving us guidelines on how to properly live.
This is horrible, terrible logic.
Quid on
0
Options
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
This is how you become and stay an adult, ElJeffe.
Well, shit.
Do I at least get to keep purchasing alcohol?
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Except this is just something you've decided is true and isn't actually based on anything factual. Do you follow people wearing Naruto headbands home to observe their at home lifestyle? Or can you cite a poll or survey that lends any credibility to your snap judgment? You've just provided an excellent example of how indefensible your attitude is. So, thank you for that.
Uh yes, observing who makes up the fanbase pretty much. Again, maybe there's some mythical convent of rabid, well adjusted anime fans I'm just not seeing, but from going to 'cons and what have you its kind of obvious that a lot (if not a majority) of these people have personal lives that resemble a train wreck.
Are you psychic?
I'd truly like to know how this is "obvious" to you. I can only assume you either actually follow these people home or you are psychic and can glean personal details about the personal lives of these people without actually physically being there.
I really don't see any other options here. Nothing about wearing a Naruto headband inherently suggests a "train wreck" lifestyle, so you must have some kind of data that supports your conclusion. There is no actual logic or reason that could sanely bring you from "Naruto headband" to "train wreck" lifestyle, and I am loathe to suggest you might not be sane, so can you please expound on how you arrived at these conclusions?
I don't get why it is so hard for you and a few others to understand that judging people based on absolutely nothing but your own silly biases is wrong.
Welp, there's how the world works and how you wish it works.
Accepting the first part is a sign of maturity. Demanding the second is a pretty large neon man child sign.
Yes, because it is the height of maturity to shrug and say "hey I'm an asshole but that's okay because that's how the world is."
Yeah though Jeffe, none of the example have been as tame as "pac man shirt". That's like me turning your example on its head and using "white 40 something, wearing slacks and a polo" and drawing all the conclusions you just did about Tea Partiers.
We're talking the people in too small, cheeto stained Pac Man shirts who take Pokemon DS games WAAAY too seriously and spend all their time in gamestop and smell like sour milk.
So a dude in a Pac Man shirt is okay, but a dude in a Naruto headband is not, and a person wearing cat ears is beyond the pale and a sociopath. Is there a book or something I can read to keep track of all these arbitrary little things? Hopefully indexed.
So a dude in a Pac Man shirt is okay, but a dude in a Naruto headband is not, and a person wearing cat ears is beyond the pale and a sociopath. Is there a book or something I can read to keep track of all these arbitrary little things? Hopefully indexed.
If you'd pay attention to context in your mad rush to spray hyperbole everywhere, you might not need an instruction book.
So a dude in a Pac Man shirt is okay, but a dude in a Naruto headband is not, and a person wearing cat ears is beyond the pale and a sociopath. Is there a book or something I can read to keep track of all these arbitrary little things? Hopefully indexed.
If you'd pay attention to context in your mad rush to spray hyperbole everywhere, you might not need an instruction book.
If you'd pay attention to the words people are writing there wouldn't be a hole in the bucket Dear Liza, Dear Liza, and we wouldn't keep circling the drain in this conversation.
Seriously. How many times are you going to throw bad hygiene into the list? Smelling like sour milk is bad. I'm pretty sure every single person in this thread would agree. I don't think anyone has disagreed with this. I vaguely recall one person suggesting that an actual mental or physical impairment may lend itself to bad body odor, but I don't think that person was trying to suggest that bad hygiene is acceptable.
So, yes, the examples we are talking about are the people who are merely wearing Pac Man t-shirts, or cat ears, and the judgment that apparently garners.
Because often the people who have these various issues being man children stink.
And no, those are not the examples because as has been said myself and others, that's not what we're getting at. You WANT them to be the examples because its a lot easier to justify "pac man t shirt" than it is "obsessive nerd who LARPs as a werewolf prince at the mall" or "pick up artists" which is the type of person we're talking about.
So maybe you should follow your own advice instead of blindly raging against a strawman that you feel comfortable arguing against.
Because often the people who have these various issues being man children stink.
And no, those are not the examples because as has been said myself and others, that's not what we're getting at. You WANT them to be the examples because its a lot easier to justify "pac man t shirt" than it is "obsessive nerd who LARPs as a werewolf prince at the mall" or "pick up artists" which is the type of person we're talking about.
So maybe you should follow your own advice instead of blindly raging against a strawman that you feel comfortable arguing against.
Because often the people who have these various issues being man children stink.
And no, those are not the examples because as has been said myself and others, that's not what we're getting at. You WANT them to be the examples because its a lot easier to justify "pac man t shirt" than it is "obsessive nerd who LARPs at the mall" or "pick up artists" which is the type of person we're talking about.
So maybe you should follow your own advice instead of blindly raging against a strawman that you feel comfortable arguing against.
No, you just want to keep sneaking hygiene into the laundry list of things "wrong" with these people so you can point and say "aha! this guy smells so wearing a Pac Man shirt is a symptom of being unhygienic!"
Sorry, but the rest of us are a little too smart for that kind of nonsense. Since you seem a bit daft, let me spell it out for you: If someone smells badly, the shirt they are wearing doesn't matter. I've encountered investment bankers wearing suits I could never dream of owning that have smelled as bad as the Staten Island garbage dump.
Next you'll say "oh sure but people who wear Pac Man shirts/Naruto headbands/cat ears/LARP/play pokemon on their DS almost always smell."
And my answer to that will be "you have no proof of that."
And your response will be: "but it's obvious! I've seen it! People who wear Pac Man shirts tend to smell bad!"
And my response: "no it isn't obvious and you need actual evidence to make that conclusion."
And so on forever in a gigantic, endless circle. So maybe you just shouldn't bother.
Well, I edited that out, because even though I am right, and even though I guess I do "win" if you keep repeating the same boring circular illogical indefensible garbage informed by the same puerile rhetorical nonsense most of us learned to deflect decades ago, it's still pretty arrogant of me to just blatantly say it like that.
So I'll admit that was a bit childish of me.
All I'm trying to say here is that your opinion doesn't hold up to any test of reason, logic, or evidence, and instead of providing any of the above, you just keep trying to reframe the argument to make your opinion work. But it doesn't.
It does work, because otherwise you wouldn't have been raging so hard earlier in this thread about how people were bigots for judging others on what I mentioned.
You're pretty much arguing against how society works, and if you want to pretend that society doesn't frown upon grown men wearing kitty ears and spending a majority of their time around people half their age playing video games, well hey more power to you I guess.
But I know that's not how things work, and I believe you do too, you just don't want to walk away from this thing without feeling like you've "won". So you know what? Go ahead and chalk this one up under the big "W" column for you if it means that much to you.
It does work, because otherwise you wouldn't have been raging so hard earlier in this thread about how people were bigots for judging others on what I mentioned.
You're pretty much arguing against how society works, and if you want to pretend that society doesn't frown upon grown men wearing kitty ears and spending a majority of their time around people half their age playing video games, well hey more power to you I guess.
But I know that's not how things work, and I believe you do too, you just don't want to walk away from this thing without feeling like you've "won". So you know what? Go ahead and chalk this one up under the big "W" column for you if it means that much to you.
I don't see any logic, reason, or evidence in the above. All I see is the same old shtick of "this is how society works, so me being a judgmental asshole is justified."
My argument has always been "no, being a judgmental asshole isn't justified just because society seems to say it's okay," so countering that with "this is reality" doesn't actually counter anything I said. It is the electronic equivalent of trying to jerk off in my face, which I don't really appreciate.
And I don't even know what your first sentence means. I "rage hard" against bigotry and bullying because they are disgusting behaviors that are actually ruining society, quite unlike wearing cat ears which has zero effect on society except it gives bullies and bigots something to feel superior about, which is the fault of the bullies and bigots and not the people wearing cat ears.
Posts
I imagine you're going to get an answer wrapped in shining principles, far removed from reality. A better question for Drez would be whether or not he's written off a person in real life an, if yes, what did they do or say to be blacklisted?
A demonstrable harm?
I can demonstrate the harm of racism. I can demonstrate the harm of poor hygiene. Both have had demonstrable negative effects on people.
Could you please demonstrate the harm in wearing cat ears that doesn't boil down to "I don't like it".
Whoa, my boo-boo. I thought this was a thread about 'let's study the man-child' and not a thread about 'let's take passive-aggressive potshots at how goddamn oppressed conservatives are on D+D.'
From a (not "the" - "a") female viewpoint, the man-child is not the guy who likes Naruto; he's the guy who expects other people to be responsible for maintaining his life, like he was still living at home with Mom except that he also expects sex when he feels like it. Your boyfriend has a good job, takes care of himself, but likes to chill playing Pokemon Soul Silver on his DS from time to time? Or, he takes care of your household, pays the bills, makes dinner and handles day-to-day stuff while you're out at the office all day? Not a man-child.
However, your boyfriend who sits on his ass playing WoW all weekend while you take care of the housework, who expects you to remind him to do what little work he does bother to pay attention to, who 'forgets' to unload the dishwasher once in a while even though you remind him, and who pouts when you don't blow him to celebrate whenever he finishes a particularly tough raid? Man-child.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
This isn't a liberal/conservative thing, by the way. If I told you that I went to a Marriage Equality vigil, I'd be kind of a dumbass for getting mad that you assume I support LGBT rights or same-sex marriage.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
Like Quid says I can offer logical arguments and actual evidence for racism causing harm both to individuals and society at large. Can you provide anything of the sort for wearing cat ears, wearing a Pac Man shirt, or playing hopscotch when you are 45?
See the thing is I, personally am not an ignorant silly goose. I make informed judgments about things. So when I refer to something "I, personally" consider harmful to society it is a personal judgment, yes, but one based entirely on logic and evidence.
I apologize. I should have made that clear. I guess I was struck dumb by the assertion that racism and wearing cat ears are even remotely on the same level in any way.
If you act like a nutjob, expect to be treated as such.
If you act like a nutjob and take offense to being treated as such, do everyone a favor and seek professional therapy.
You can't expect society to simply allow you to act irrationally and still impart you with responsibilty.
People who do weird shit tend to be psychologically unbalanced, and present a real danger to those around them.
Theres a very distinct line between paying homage to a shared cultural experience (pac man shirt) and living in a fantasy land because you can't (or wont) deal with reality (wearing cat ears, playing hopscotch).
Please keep in mind these are broad generalizations, based on activities in which very little context was provided.
The defining characteristic of a man child is someone who is oblivious to the fact that they are responsible for how they are percieved, and as such have an obligation to learn the standards of the society they are a part of. It is not that they acknowledge this and choose to act in irregular fashion, it's that they are unaware of the distinction to begin with, nor are they capable of recognizing its validity.
Oddly enough, this is very similar to sociopathic pathology.
Well its more about getting upset about getting judged because you're a 30 something wearing a Naruto headband and not being treated like the unique snowflake you are. There's a huge difference in between wearing a t shirt and wearing a costume on your mall outing, or acting like an oblivious dork and expecting not to get judged on it.
And of course its not a lib/con thing. I was making the point that while WH40K and Pokemon are sacred cows around here, I get to see plenty of smug condensation in any political thread around here, usually by the same people who are screeching "Don't judge!!!!" when it comes to hanging with pre teens and slapping down some Pokemons at the food court.
You might want to take a breath too, as an aside. You seem like you're getting kinda worked up about this.
Encourage bestiality.
Or at least furryism
To wit, here's an article about how peer pressure helps make more successful people, and asserting your individuality at every turn..Not so much.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/09/23/teens-who-feel-more-peer-pressure-turn-out-better-not-worse.html
Ah, the mating cry of the greater troll.
You should've been clear that no matter how you dress this up, you and people who make these kinds of judgments are still making personal judgment in the same way as someone judging a pac-man-wearing neckbeard or the cat-ear bus girl.
And, ignorant or not, you are a silly goose.
And as for cat ears, I'd rather hang out with someone who lacks a few social graces (assuming their personality is otherwise a-ok) than someone who thinks they are better than everyone else but I guess I'm just weird like that.
I mean when you have people suggesting that wearing cat ears alone suggests sociopathy, like Ronnie Law just has, this thread has gone beyond sane discourse.
And he more or less invalidates the first part of the article with the second part. What he should have said in the first part was that some peer pressure can be helpful. In fact, the ability to mediate peer pressure is what made the subjects go on to have "successful lives".
If this was slashdot someone would write correlation is not causation.
.
Island. Being on fire.
I'm not particularly worked up about this, and I'd kinda rather not play the game where one person derails the discussion with 'gee, you're upset, why don't we argue about that for a while instead of the actual subject.'
What do you mean by "getting judged"? If you see somebody in a Naruto headband, "judging" that they're a huge anime fan is quite reasonable. If by "judging" you mean automatically assuming they're a man-child who lives in his mom's basement and can't deal with adults his own age, yeah, I'd call that a judgmental, silly-goose leap without further evidence.
If I see somebody continually whining about how mean the liberals are to them every chance they get, I'll probably be a little judgy about that, admittedly.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
Except him talking about mediating peer pressure doesn't invalidate the article, and handwaving "correalation is not causation" doesn't invalidate his findings.
Except most of the 30 somethings in Naruto headbands fit that mold, and when you put on that headband that's the group you're choosing to associate with. I wouldn't go as far as you did in your judgement, but I certainly would have a hard time taking anything they say seriously. Maybe you live in an area of well adjusted rabid anime fans or something?
For example, I like to fence. It doesn't mean I wear a glove or jacket or mask out to town to announce my love of fencing because I realise that's kind of inappropriate for a grown man to do.
I don't get why that sort of thing (basic social mores) is so hard to understand around here.
Are you white knighting for D&D? I don't get why you keep bringing this tangent up to be honest.
Except this is just something you've decided is true and isn't actually based on anything factual. Do you follow people wearing Naruto headbands home to observe their at home lifestyle? Or can you cite a poll or survey that lends any credibility to your snap judgment? You've just provided an excellent example of how indefensible your attitude is. So, thank you for that.
I don't get why it is so hard for you and a few others to understand that judging people based on absolutely nothing but your own silly biases is wrong.
Whenever I stay in a hotel, I tend to skip down the hall whenever I need to get something from inside the hotel. Like ice, or something from a vending machine. Typically in socks. Skipping is rad.
I also like to sing in public, out loud. Bugs the shit out of my wife. Sometimes I rap. Poorly.
Sure, these are eccentric quirks. People look at me funny when they see me do something like that. I'm hard pressed, though, to see myself as a real danger to those around me.
See, once upon a time I didn't do anything in public that might make people look at me funny. Then I grew up. I realized that I genuinely don't give a shit what random strangers think of me, because I am never going to see them again. Hell, I probably give them an awesome "guess what bizarre shit I saw today" anecdote.
I do care what my friends and family think. And you know what? Not a damned one of them thinks less of me because of these things. I'm quirky. It makes life more interesting. I don't really dig cat ears, though. Is that some specific anime reference? Or is it being a furry?
Uh yes, observing who makes up the fanbase pretty much. Again, maybe there's some mythical convent of rabid, well adjusted anime fans I'm just not seeing, but from going to 'cons and what have you its kind of obvious that a lot (if not a majority) of these people have personal lives that resemble a train wreck.
Welp, there's how the world works and how you wish it works.
Accepting the first part is a sign of maturity. Demanding the second is a pretty large neon man child sign.
That just means you are a man-child sociopath, ElJeffe. To NOT be a man-child sociopath, you have to constantly worry about and account for what other people may think of every breath you take, every move you make, every bond you break, and every step you take. They'll be watching you. Every single day, every word you say, every game you play, they'll be watching you. Especially if it's Naruto, or Pac Man.
Also, you have to make sure you never step outside the boundaries of what society has deemed appropriate adult behavior, and you must never, ever make anyone feel remotely uncomfortable even if their discomfort is a manufacture of their own biases that they've formed about entirely harmless, arbitrary societal traditions. This is how you become and stay an adult, ElJeffe.
Though if you want to stand on a soap box and beat up a strawman, be my guest.
I would assume that they hold one or more views that the Tea Party espouses, and probably strongly. I would also assume them to be Republican. I wouldn't assume they're racist, or stupid, or think Obama is a secret Muslim, because it's impossible to know for certain. I would also assume that they probably hold one or more views that I would really disagree with.
As a class, though, you can assume lots of things about the class "Tea Partiers". Because there are tons of polls and demographic studies that tell us about trends for this group. That's just basic statistics.
Now, if someone has actually written an article on an issue, it's perfectly fair to "judge" their position on that issue. There may also be several subtexts or conventions that belie their positions on other topics. This is because the person is actively communicating. They are saying "This is what I think," in some level of detail.
A person wearing a Pac Man shirt is communicating, sure, but it's passive. They aren't pulling you aside and saying, "Hey you, this is my view!" All they are saying is, "I like this shirt enough to wear it." Heck, even if they're kind of slovenly, that doesn't tell you that much. You know how many times I've gone to the grocery store in the morning without showering because we were out of milk? Or have spent the day working outside, gotten sweaty and gross, and then remembered I need to get to the bank before they close at 3:00? Shit happens, and you don't always have time to get pretty before you go out.
The amount of information you can get out of a single glance at a person as they're walking by is fucking miniscule, and pretending you know more than maybe one or two extremely superficial things about him is hugely unwise.
This is horrible, terrible logic.
Well, shit.
Do I at least get to keep purchasing alcohol?
Seriously. People who get shit on for who they are for no good reason should learn that it's for the best and never do anything to change it ever.
Are you psychic?
I'd truly like to know how this is "obvious" to you. I can only assume you either actually follow these people home or you are psychic and can glean personal details about the personal lives of these people without actually physically being there.
I really don't see any other options here. Nothing about wearing a Naruto headband inherently suggests a "train wreck" lifestyle, so you must have some kind of data that supports your conclusion. There is no actual logic or reason that could sanely bring you from "Naruto headband" to "train wreck" lifestyle, and I am loathe to suggest you might not be sane, so can you please expound on how you arrived at these conclusions?
Yes, because it is the height of maturity to shrug and say "hey I'm an asshole but that's okay because that's how the world is."
We're talking the people in too small, cheeto stained Pac Man shirts who take Pokemon DS games WAAAY too seriously and spend all their time in gamestop and smell like sour milk.
Not a dude in a pac man shirt.
Yes because expecting people to conform to social etiquette is being an asshole.
Do you tuck in your tuxedo t shirt when you want to be classy then?
Or they can take a bath, put down the anime figure, shave their neckbeard, and leave Never Never Land.
But of course that's a crushing impossibility and its much easier to bitch about how fucked society is on the internet I am sure.
If you'd pay attention to context in your mad rush to spray hyperbole everywhere, you might not need an instruction book.
If you'd pay attention to the words people are writing there wouldn't be a hole in the bucket Dear Liza, Dear Liza, and we wouldn't keep circling the drain in this conversation.
Seriously. How many times are you going to throw bad hygiene into the list? Smelling like sour milk is bad. I'm pretty sure every single person in this thread would agree. I don't think anyone has disagreed with this. I vaguely recall one person suggesting that an actual mental or physical impairment may lend itself to bad body odor, but I don't think that person was trying to suggest that bad hygiene is acceptable.
So, yes, the examples we are talking about are the people who are merely wearing Pac Man t-shirts, or cat ears, and the judgment that apparently garners.
And no, those are not the examples because as has been said myself and others, that's not what we're getting at. You WANT them to be the examples because its a lot easier to justify "pac man t shirt" than it is "obsessive nerd who LARPs as a werewolf prince at the mall" or "pick up artists" which is the type of person we're talking about.
So maybe you should follow your own advice instead of blindly raging against a strawman that you feel comfortable arguing against.
Who's been talking about pick-up artists?
No, you just want to keep sneaking hygiene into the laundry list of things "wrong" with these people so you can point and say "aha! this guy smells so wearing a Pac Man shirt is a symptom of being unhygienic!"
Sorry, but the rest of us are a little too smart for that kind of nonsense. Since you seem a bit daft, let me spell it out for you: If someone smells badly, the shirt they are wearing doesn't matter. I've encountered investment bankers wearing suits I could never dream of owning that have smelled as bad as the Staten Island garbage dump.
Next you'll say "oh sure but people who wear Pac Man shirts/Naruto headbands/cat ears/LARP/play pokemon on their DS almost always smell."
And my answer to that will be "you have no proof of that."
And your response will be: "but it's obvious! I've seen it! People who wear Pac Man shirts tend to smell bad!"
And my response: "no it isn't obvious and you need actual evidence to make that conclusion."
And so on forever in a gigantic, endless circle. So maybe you just shouldn't bother.
"I win because I am right!"
No wonder you're taking this all so personally.
Same mentality, just a different channeling of it. I'd lump "Jersey Shore guidos" in there too to be honest.
Well, I edited that out, because even though I am right, and even though I guess I do "win" if you keep repeating the same boring circular illogical indefensible garbage informed by the same puerile rhetorical nonsense most of us learned to deflect decades ago, it's still pretty arrogant of me to just blatantly say it like that.
So I'll admit that was a bit childish of me.
All I'm trying to say here is that your opinion doesn't hold up to any test of reason, logic, or evidence, and instead of providing any of the above, you just keep trying to reframe the argument to make your opinion work. But it doesn't.
You're pretty much arguing against how society works, and if you want to pretend that society doesn't frown upon grown men wearing kitty ears and spending a majority of their time around people half their age playing video games, well hey more power to you I guess.
But I know that's not how things work, and I believe you do too, you just don't want to walk away from this thing without feeling like you've "won". So you know what? Go ahead and chalk this one up under the big "W" column for you if it means that much to you.
I don't see any logic, reason, or evidence in the above. All I see is the same old shtick of "this is how society works, so me being a judgmental asshole is justified."
My argument has always been "no, being a judgmental asshole isn't justified just because society seems to say it's okay," so countering that with "this is reality" doesn't actually counter anything I said. It is the electronic equivalent of trying to jerk off in my face, which I don't really appreciate.
And I don't even know what your first sentence means. I "rage hard" against bigotry and bullying because they are disgusting behaviors that are actually ruining society, quite unlike wearing cat ears which has zero effect on society except it gives bullies and bigots something to feel superior about, which is the fault of the bullies and bigots and not the people wearing cat ears.